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Originally Posted by Hoojo
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Originally Posted by SpatulaoftheAges
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Originally Posted by Hoojo
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Originally Posted by SpatulaoftheAges
Yeah that thingy.
I don't have enough testing to say which of the two is better. But one of them seems like a good fit right now; I would say a much better fit than Oblivion Ring.
Honestly. How many times have you(you know who you are) ACTUALLY hit an artifact/enchantment that mattered with that thing?
Counterbalance is a bitch. I hit that shit all day long. Or I've slided out a Pernicous Deed when he could only pop it for one, which is pretty sweet.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
In reality, the loss of Seal of Doom's happens-right-now-ness sucks. But I'm pretty sure that O-Ring should at least keep 1 MD'd slot, if only because it can hit planeswalkers or other madness. I'll tool around with a singleton of that Shadow-maker in the board for creature matches, maybe two.
How is Counterbalance a bitch? Half of the deck costs 3. Oblivion ring it. Don't you play three of them?Quote:
Originally Posted by lonelybaritone
Counterbance is not a bitch. Between Oblivion Ring, Aura of Silence, Choke, City of solitude, adn much of the deck being at 3cc I never found Counterbalance to be a significant threat (at least in threshold).Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
Yeah...and if it is a threat, it's because they found a 3cc spell with Top, in which case O Ring isn't buing out any outs.
I guess occasionally you'll mess up a bad player with Deed, but that's a pretty remote situation for 1-2 mana more over the creature removal you could be running.
I don't think the deck needs a fast creature removal. Oblivion Ring is good vs EE too, as rarely a thresh player has 5 mana to cast it for 3 and activate it in the same turn. same goes for Pernicious Deed in GBx aggro-control decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpatulaOfTheAges
Oblivion Ring is what the deck was asking in terms of a versatile card to deal with hate post side and, with the unbanning of Replenish, is what the deck really needed to be a contender in the meta IMO.
The 2cc creature removal gets hit by Spell Snare too.
PS. that deck is sick. Yesterday I went first turn Utopia Sprawl and the opponent cast in sequence: turn 1 Spell Snare(Argothian), turn 2 Counterbalance, Turn 3 Trygon Predator (?), Turn 4 Trygon Predator (???) and I still won. Oblivion Ring, Replenish and Sterling Grove for the win!
Don't know if this will have a place in here?
Idyllic Tutor
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana2.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manaw.gifSorceryhttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoil...gtide-rare.gifSearch your library for an Enchantment card, reveal it, then put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
I'd say no. Grove is better at searching for enchantments while the draw engine is on, and it's quite slow to tutor for a Presence and start the engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacearuse
It's a cool card, but no.
One clear "no!" for that tutor in enchantress. I'd rather ran Enlightened Tutor which itself is subpar to Sterling Grove.
When did this site become a Vintage site?
Oh wait, it didn't.
Who gives a crap about Bargain? Stick to relevant Legacy discussion.
BTW, That tutor is pretty bad in Enchantress.
I've been seeing this deck a lot recently, and heres and it seems to be really fragile. Here are reasons it is so:
1. Scoops to enchantment hate
2. It has 8 of the cards that it absolutely needs to run and those cards can be removed or disrupted (not enough).
3. It seems to only have 2 cards that can win them the game. Whenever I play against this deck, they just mill themselves and lose because they run out of win cons.
4. There is no control element to this deck to protect itself. It's 100% engine. And no, elephant grass doesn't do shit, they'll just pay 2.
Some tips for playing against this deck is to either disrupt their enchantress or their win con (whatever's easier).
You could say, TES scoops to Combo hate, Ichorid scoops to Graveyard hate, Goblins scoop to Creature hate, ... wait a second, which deck besides Aggro Loam (Burning Wish -> Tranquility) plays serious Enchantment hate? Anyway, just some days ago I've won a game 2 vs Aggro Loam after he played Krosan Grip, Tranquility, Hull Breach, Krosan Grip in this order. Maybe it's because I didn't scoop. Maybe it's also because I played a list that included Replenish.Quote:
Originally Posted by galeng
I think it has 12. Sterling Groves should count.Quote:
2. It has 8 of the cards that it absolutely needs to run and those cards can be removed or disrupted (not enough).
Are you sure you're playing against players that actually know the deck? This has never ever happened to me, even after Extirpate.Quote:
3. It seems to only have 2 cards that can win them the game. Whenever I play against this deck, they just mill themselves and lose because they run out of win cons.
Elephant Grass doesn't do shit? Moat doesn't do shit? Solitary Confinement doesn't do shit? Yeah, right.Quote:
4. There is no control element to this deck to protect itself. It's 100% engine. And no, elephant grass doesn't do shit, they'll just pay 2.
Some tips for playing against Threshold is to either destroy their Goyfs or their Mongeese (whatever's easier). Thanks for the insight.Quote:
Some tips for playing against this deck is to either disrupt their enchantress or their win con (whatever's easier).
What im trying to point out here is that this deck lacks any disruption, where as all the decks you've listed to compare do have a solid disruption package, so they can fight threats like the ones mentioned.
I'm extremely sure this deck just scoops to any disruption, where another deck would just simply answer it.
1- Who does play Tranquility? However, Replenish works around that (and Pernicious Deed and blahstuff...)Quote:
Originally Posted by galeng
2- You have 4 tutors (sterling grove) to get those 8 cards and sometimes happens that you can just win the game with Sacred Mesa or Hoofprints without an Enchantress effect out. Sometimes Moat wins the game on its own (like vs non-red threshold, vs ichorid, vs 43Lands, etc)
3- There are 3 ways to win the game: Sacred Mesa, Hoofprints and Words of War. You also have 4 tutors to get them before milling and 2 Replenish to get back them if they get countered. You probably played vs incompetent people.
4- The control elements of the deck are here just to gain some time and get the engine running. Believe it or not, Elephant Grass is quite good vs SuiBlack decks, Ichorid, Goblins and Breakfast. It also happens that the deck is playing Oblivion Ring and Moat. Oh, and Solitary confinament can make people scoop quite oftenif your draw engine is on.
Countering win condition doesn't really work, as the deck is capable of assembling it's win conditions and play them in a single turn, and if they get all countered, Replenish them back. Countering The draw engine works thought, as works ruining the manabase with Sinkhole/Pox effects.
What were you playing against Enchantress? I suppose some sort of middle-range disruption deck. The deck has serious problems with Black disruption decks, so maybe you were just playing one of the worst matchups (besides Storm combo).
There's a slight difference between "scoops to" and "sometimes has problems with" you might be missing. Sure there might be games where a single Thoughtseize is "gg", but again, there are games where a single Force of Will/Tormod's Crypt/Pernicious Deed is "gg" to TES/Ichorid/Goblins. The comparison to Goblins is not bad though: After two Swords and a Deed they can still go Matron->Ringleader->Warchief+Piledriver and win, without previous disruption. Same applies to this deck: just let them Thoughtseize the Enchantress, Force the Presence, Stifle the Grove, Waste the Sanctum, then cast Replenish and watch them scoop. It reminds me of the Double-Tendrils-plan of Iggy Pop: You have 2 Forces? I don't care.
Also, please explain what you're actually referring to with "disruption". Elephant Grass and Moat can actually be quite disrupting for the aggro player. Also, please tell me which other deck "simply answers" the disruption as you've written, because I might want to pick it up.
I never found Black to be a terrible matchup. I played this deck when Pikula was heavily played and I found if you get any Enchantress out there's not much they can do about it, even less so if they are Mono-Black, and then every card in your deck cantraps. Not to mention Elephant Grass is almost a Time Walk, Karmic Justice makes LD suck, and now you have Replenish. Also there's plenty of SB options available if Mono-Black was heavily playing in your meta. If anything combo is the real problem.
I found that Smallpox, LD, vindicate, and edict effects hurts a lot pre-side. Often I just can't reach the 3rd land, too often they 2for1 me with sinkhole vs land+utopia/wild growth. Turn 1 thoughtseize that take away your Enchantress is bad news, as it's a turn 1 Hippie. Not that we can't work around those, but I can't say it's a comfortable matchup. I'd say like 40-60 or worse in G1, 45-55 or 50-50 G2-3. Not great.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
Well for one I've never been a fan of Wild Growth but I can see how that would hurt. The only games I ever lost were ones where I failed to get to 3 lands, but coming out the side I had a second Karmic Justice and single Sacred Ground (because Geddon' was a concern) and there's plenty of ways to side for this matchup. I don't know I still don't like Wild Growth but apparently Lonelybaritone has the be/all end/all say in what's good and what's not in this deck and has plenty of time to write insulting replies so I won't waste my time with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne