Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
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Originally Posted by
Hanni
I've been playing with the deck all day and it's really not OMGZ BrOkEn as everyone keeps claiming.
I think you're playing a subpar list. For example, you say you're having problems with Duress. You can easily protect your Mystical Tutors and Summoner's Pacts from Duress if you're playing Gemstone Caverns. The same holds true in the case of Brainstorm. Chrome Mox also lowers your resilience to Chalice, and costs you relevant card advantage unnecessarily.
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Does it push out aggro? Possible. Does TES and Belcher do the same?
Individually? No. Aggro can be tuned to beat IGG, TES, Belcher, and Solidarity because they are equally impacted by similar types of hate. Chalice, Pillar, Glowrider, Trinisphere? All of these cards are extremely effective. They are all equally subpar against Flash combo. Current combo decks don't invalidate aggro's metagame presence alone. In conjunction with Flash combo, they absolutely do, because no dedicated aggro deck can hope to successfully hate both kinds of combo.
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The format was dominated by aggro for how long? Now combo wants to move in. Adapt. Put some cards in your deck that will answer combo. If you're worried about them being narrow, find versatile answers.
One of the problems with Flash combo is that the vast majority of answers to it are by definition not versatile. Chalice is versatile. Trinishpere is versatile. Children of Korlis is extremely narrow. Leyline of the Void is only slightly less so.
I have no problem adapting to a shifting metagame. Even extreme ones. I simply object to your notion that certain archetypes can adapt by simply adding maindeck hate. They cannot. They will be pushed out completely. I care less about putting a value judgement on that point than I do about having it be acknowledged as an inevitable side effect of Flash combo.
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Ya know... how Stifle is amazing vs Goblins and combo at the same time kinda things? Or how Duress is good vs Thresh, Landstill, and combo?
Stifle, Meddling Mage, and countermagic are the only non-narrow ways to cope with Flash combo. Everything else is either ineffectual or extremely narrow. Your argument amounts to, "Flash is just fine. Everyone just needs to run either blue or black in their deck, without exception." It could be argued (quite reasonably) that this is an unhealthily large impact for a single card to have on the format. Even Goblin Lackey doesn't force every single deck in the format to run at least one of two colors.
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Yea, I'm sure some aggro might get pushed out. Other aggro can adopt answers.
I challenge you to take an existing aggressive archetype, alter it as you are suggesting, and to post even marginally positive results against Flash combo without losing to most other decks in the format. This isn't rhetoric; I just don't think it's possible.
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What's wrong with splashing black for Duress/Therapy in something like Zoo? Or even in Angel Stompy? Yea, they might bounce your True Believer. Tweak a little. Wouldn't turn 1 Chrome Mox + Tomb into Trinisphere help?
No. I don't mean to be rude, but the fact that you think a turn one Trinisphere or a single Duress backed by a 5-6 turn clock is enough to beat Flash combo causes me to question the credibility of your arguments.
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This is an Eternal format. Cards like LED, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual, Mystical Tutor, so on and so forth aren't banned... they aren't even restricted. Did everyone really expect the metagame to stay aggro and play a bunch of 1cc 2/3 beats with no disruption forever?
Of course not. You may have noticed that I haven't even said I think Flash should be banned, because I'm not sure it should be. What I am sure of is that you're underestimating the impact it will have on the metagame, as well as the potential drawbacks that this kind of pressure will have on deck construction and the health of the format.
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4 Duress and 3 Cabal Therapy splashed into any decent low range aggro deck makes for a deck that can beat Hulk Smash.
You don't just "splash" a new color and 7-8 cards into a deck without fundamentally changing the way it plays. In doing so, you lower the overall threat density of this kind of deck, thus inherently weakening its clock, which in turn inherently lowers the effectiveness of discard. You don't simply cast a Duress against Hulk Flash and win the game. You must not only disrupt, but win in a timely fashion. My argument is that Hulk Flash is redundant and inherently fast enough that it can recover from early disruption before an aggro deck is able to sufficiently capitalize on it, especially when it's forced to drop 8 of its threats for disruption.
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If aggro is forced to evolve into aggro/control, then so it must. Both blue and black offer awesome disruption elements at splashable prices.
When every single deck in the format must run either black or blue to be competitive, are you playing in a healthy format? This question isn't rhetorical, but I think it's worth some very serious consideration and discussion.
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My decklist is probably bad. Post me a better decklist to test, maybe the list I've been playing has been heavily affecting my judgement.
I don't think your decklist is terrible, but I think the Chrome Moxen open you up to the kind of hate which you say is good against the deck, specifically Chalice and Trinishpere. I suspect that the inclusion of the Moxen is exaggerating the apparent usefulness of this kind of disruption against you.
The version running Gemstone Caverns is also worth testing, because it allows you more options in protecting yourself from Duress with turn 0 Mystical/Brainstorm. It also allows for silliness like turn 0 Cavern, Summoner's Pact, then Pitch ESG and cast Flash for the win during the following turn's upkeep, before Pact's trigger kills you.
I have no specific list to offer, because mine keeps changing. A lot of the ones in this thread are quite good, and yours is pretty close to the mark. I just think you out to replace the Moxen and test the Caverns.
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Any suggestions? I'm currently considering going to Kiki Jiki route to cut the dead slots and add in more disruption and Merchant Scrolls.
I'd advise against it. While the extra spaces would be nice, all the extra disruption you would get out of them would be dedicated to dealing with the extremely common hate like StP and Needle which you open yourself up to by running the KJ/KG combo. The extreme inherent resilience of the Disciple plan would seem to outweigh the extra slots you'd gain, but that's just my opnion.
In any case, I want to make my position clear: I am not necessarily for or against emergency action against Flash. I feel strongly that it will have a monumental impact on the format, and that impact could likely be unnecessarily restrictive and ultimately unhealthy. I think post-FS, given time for real testing and optimization, this combo will only improve, and will likely be the dominant, defining force in the format. Aggro will be essentially defunct. Aggro-control consisting of blue and/or black will be the only viable non-combo options. You can take that for what it's worth; it my be a good change, it might be a bad change, but it will definitely be a massive change.
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bovinious
Heres what some guy on the Wizards forums said:
this is from my friend who is a DCI Judge...
"Those two rulings no longer apply as worded; they were based on errata that has been replaced. Mark Gottlieb, our Rules Manager, has put considerable effort into evaluating old errata and reverting to the original wording of many cards, or original intent with current templating. As a result, the Oracle wording on Flash has been updated more recently than those rulings; the next Gatherer update is scheduled for May 1st, and Sheldon (the Gatherer NetRep) is aware of this not-for-long discrepancy."
So it will work until may 1st... If they change it again then or not, but he thinks it will get changed back... it's WAY to Broken!
I really think they have to consider the GP which is before June 1 and either undo the erratum on this thing or emergency ban it, it will poison the format and the GP if it is allowed to remain.
I'm hearing way too many dumb things about this. Try to read what your "friend" wrote (what you quoted is a post from the judge list).
Again, the wording will not be changed.
There are currently two outdated rulings under Flash which are based on the older errata and were missed in the current update. Those rulings will be removed from the file with the next update. Flash will not change.
Wizards does not power errata cards. The exact opposite, in fact - they are removing every piece of power errata they find.
It's not "too broken". Your opinion of the card is irrevlent. The only way "broken" cards are addressed, especially in Legacy and Vintage, are the quarterly banned and restricted updates. The next one is June 1st. Nothing will change about Flash before then.
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
What is the E-mail of the guy I should write at Wizards about this?
Please PM it to me, so I can write him. I don't want the last few months of my time wasted because I spent it testing a deck against a planned field of what was known only to make my testing worthless because of a last moment rediculous deck.
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Epheniculles
What is the E-mail of the guy I should write at Wizards about this?
Please PM it to me, so I can write him. I don't want the last few months of my time wasted because I spent it testing a deck against a planned field of what was known only to make my testing worthless because of a last moment rediculous deck.
Too bad. Test it. Deal with it.
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Epheniculles
What is the E-mail of the guy I should write at Wizards about this?
Please PM it to me, so I can write him. I don't want the last few months of my time wasted because I spent it testing a deck against a planned field of what was known only to make my testing worthless because of a last moment rediculous deck.
Sadly these kind of things do happen, even without changes such as this. No one planned for Necro until a kid in the 2 people (1 in the junior tournies) showed up with Necro-powered decks and started railing competition....then everything was all about the power of Necro. This is a similar situation, things can throw out and invalidate testing and make you rely more on playskill...
Again, I'm not thinking that this combo will be 'healthy' for the format...but the more I screw with this deck the more I'm wondering if Flash will really be the problem. I honestly am leaning more towards Hulk being the "necro" and Flash being this era's "dark ritual."
Consider this... You get a stable, resilient combo deck that can consistently beat aggro, perhaps 50/50 or so with storm combos, a winnable but uphill matchup with aggro control, and a definitively bad control matchup. If it draws focus away from Storm-decks but aid in keeping aggro in check, it could open up the viability of a true Control strategy. This isn't necessarily a bad thing... however, I am pretty damn sure that the current combo of Flash-> Protean Hulk will unbalance the format.
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
This is the most exciting thing to happen to legacy since the big breakdown from 1.5 to legacy. I for one hope Flash stays around and hopefully I wont be eating those words weeks from now. Im hyped to play this deck and even have it in the format. Bye bye goblins.
The sky is falling.
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
Godzilla, I think Gemstone Caverns is pretty bad. I have dropped the Chrome Moxes though.
Well, maybe certain forms of hate wouldn't be nearly as strong. But we have these options that are splashable:
Duress
Cabal Therapy
Extirpate
Stifle
Daze (to an extent)
Chalice of the Void
Meddling Mage
If you're heavier in blue you can go with Force, if you're heavier in black you can go with Hymn. With proper accel, I can see Trinisphere/Sphere of Resistance/Glowrider being helpful. I'm sure there are more options as well.
Well, in Zoo for example, you can drop 3-4 burn spells and 3-4 beats to fit it. I saw a Zoo list recently that was Roopey inspired I believe and it splashed black for Confidant, discard, and I think maybe Vindicate (not sure). It didn't seem like a bad decklist, personally.
I may be underestimating its impact on the format but I don't think I'm underestimating how strong this deck has been for me in testing. It's strong but I think decks can overcome it. I do agree with you that forcing aggro strategies to add disruption (mainly blue or black, though I'm sure other options are available) is a big impact.
Additionally, I wasn't suggesting that 1 piece of disruption knocks this deck out of the game. However, 1 piece of disruption can sometimes buy a turn or two to grab another, with the extra piece buying even more time for even a clock of two 1cc 2/x's to beat down. Cabal Therapy has the added benefit of being a 2-for-1 spell. I had many experiences where I'd lose a key combo piece and proceed to topdeck a few ammo guys or Disciples and some mana sources, not drawing a key spell until about 4 or so turns later and being too late by then.
I am sticking with the Disciple version for now.
I believe the impact and change on the format will be large, but I do not think it will degenerate into only blue-based aggro/control and black-based aggro/control (and combo of course). A simple blue or black splash (and not based) seems like it would be sufficient enough, since the actual dedicated aggro/control decks like Fish and Thresh will still push even Hulk Smash down a little. I think other various strategies will be viable as well... one major one I'm hoping for is traditional control style Tog... tons of disruption that eventually leads to a combo-esque kill. The fact that an Eternal format has been dominated by aggro for so long (since the beginning, right?) seems like its about time faster more powerful (in this case Hulk) decks spawned to up the power level of the format. Forcing deck design to be able to deal with such threats seems exciting. I'm still not sure that control or aggro will completely die... if aggro/control keeps combo in check, I'm sure you'll be able to find decks like Goblins or Rifter sweeping an unprepared aggro/control metagame. It may make events largely unpredictable and interesting. It may not. I don't know, only time will tell.
At any rate, here's my current list with sideboard (with suggestions from Nihil):
Hulk Flash
Lands (11)
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
Creatures (20)
3 Protean Hulk
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Shifting Wall
3 Phyrexian Marauder
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Pact of Negation
4 Force of Will
1 Echoing Truth
4 Flash
4 Lotus Petal
Sideboard (15)
3 Daze
3 Duress
4 Xantid Swarm
2 Simplify (could be something else)
1 Research//Development
2 Sensei's Divining Top
I do not think the pre-FS lists of Hulk Smash are going to demolish the GP. At least not UWb Fish. Which I planned on taking in the first place. If it does sweep away the competition (and if it is legal), I think knocking out the other decks may be beneficial for me if I make it to day 2. This did and does not effect my decision on how I feel about post-FS Hulk for the format though.
For now, I'm going to bed. I'll check this thread in the morning to continue discussion. I'm going on 28 hours of being awake without sleep.
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Akki
Too bad. Test it. Deal with it.
Wow, why are you being such and ass. I'm not the only one that has an issue.
Who is the person to blame for this rediculous deck?
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GodzillA
I think you're playing a subpar list. For example, you say you're having problems with Duress. You can easily protect your Mystical Tutors and Summoner's Pacts from Duress if you're playing Gemstone Caverns.
I agree that for someone to not understand how bah-roken this deck is, they must be playing a sub par list. Or be an idiot, which Hanni is not. But how on earth does Gemstone Cavern protect your Mystical Tutors and Summoner's Pacts?!?
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mirrislegend
I agree that for someone to not understand how bah-roken this deck is, they must be playing a sub par list. Or be an idiot, which Hanni is not. But how on earth does Gemstone Cavern protect your Mystical Tutors and Summoner's Pacts?!?
You have the mana to Brainstorm on their turn one, protecting your pieces, and also Mystical Tutor which will put the piece you need on top of your library (so if they Duress and you have Hulk, you still win). Obviously you can still do this by going first turn Island, but basically every opponent will want you to draw anyways, and this gives you an advantage. When you start you can pitch a dead or unnecessary card, they do not get to draw, you can set up by playing one of your 1cc spells, and still get your draw. Caverns also makes the turn one win much more common, so your opponent draws one less card than they would have if you went off turn two without Caverns.
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
How's this as a counter to hulk flash.
Stall with discard and counters, Chalice and trinisphere and eventually play aven mindcensor. They wont be able to combo off and the aven can be played in response to flash as well.
But i think that just proves zillas point in the fact that a deck needs to run black or blue to be able to compete.
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
The more I think about it, the more I start to agree with people in this thread who have said that Hulk is the problem, not Flash. Frankly, I think that flash in its current carnation can have lots of interesting and powerful interactions with other cards, but only with Hulk does it instantly win the game without being vulnerable to STP, needle, and other normal forms of conventional hate. The root of hulk's power is his ability to fetch 10+ cards from your deck. No other creature has a CIP/leaves play effect as powerful as Hulks and could set up instant, unstoppable wins. Gamekeeper would give the possibility of a win, but a few things would have to go right and most of the time you will have to wait and pass the turn because you won't have enough mana to start the salvagers / LED infinite loop. This instantly makes you vulerable to STP and needle. Rector would also have a cool interaction with Flash, but what can you fetch with rector that instantly wins you the game? And once again, a well timed naturalize will most likely disrupt it. I think that the change to flash actually opens up lots of new and interesting design space as long as creatures like hulk that create instant wins aren't around.
Kronicler
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cire
How's this as a counter to hulk flash.
Stall with discard and counters, Chalice and trinisphere and eventually play aven mindcensor. They wont be able to combo off and the aven can be played in response to flash as well.
But i think that just proves zillas point in the fact that a deck needs to run black or blue to be able to compete.
So Far,
Blue: FoW, Stifle, Trickbind, Daze, Force Spike, Other counters.
Black: Duress, Therapy. Extirpate and Hymn to some extent. Leyline is chunky, but OK. Shadow of Doubt is another marginal card. The problem is that Mystical tutor and Brainstorm deals with discard pretty well.
White: Aven Mindcensor. True believer. Child, and some other marginal cards. Aven is powerful but slow, and others are no better then a temporal speed bump. With blue, It gets Mage. The fact that the most hate dies to a single sweep of Massacre is another problem.
Green, Red: None, so far.
This is a brief list, and must be full of holes, but it still looks unhealthy.
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cire
Stall with discard and counters, Chalice and trinisphere and eventually play aven mindcensor. They wont be able to combo off and the aven can be played in response to flash as well.
I'd considered Aven Mindcensor myself, but again, you're looking at a turn 3 play against a deck that wins on turn 2. You can play a deck with Chalice and Mindcensor and Trinishpere and Duress and you'll beat the combo, but you'll likely suck ass against most other things. That's really what I'm getting at: Flash combo isn't unbeatable... it's just that there are very few colors or combinations of cards which do so, which means an extreme constriction on playable cards in the format. This is arguably detrimental to the health of the format.
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Akki
Too bad. Test it. Deal with it.
I've respected your rulings knowledge in the past, but I can't believe this is the attitude you take on this. I can see that you're correct about them not changing things before the B/R update, and I can see why, and perhaps that's all you meant. But if people aren't encouraged to email to protest this, then we have no voice. If we have a format, and WotC wants to sponsor events for us, then they had better listen when the community as a whole starts telling them to examine the power level of a particular card.
To send a message to Aaron Forsythe, assuming he's the one you should be messaging, follow the following link, scroll down to the bottom, and select "Respond via Email"
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af167
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
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Originally Posted by C.P.
Green, Red: None, so far.
Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast seem pretty good.
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
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Originally Posted by
dre4m
Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast seem pretty good.
True. I need some sleep. There is Burn out as well, If you are desperate.
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
Hey guys,
So I'm new to the source but hardly new to Legacy or any other format for this matter. I actually had to get an account just to post something here. So here it is.
This deck has 0 bad matchups from current decks in the format. Let that sink in. Now in 15 minutes this might be a moot point but regardless, step back from your preconceived notions of how combo works and realize this.
The only card that stops this deck after resolving flash is Stifle. Stifle is a very reactive card. You can always simply counter it. So they counter back. Well then you counter that as well. Know why that works? Because every deck packing stifle is either a) purely reactive with no clock or b) aggressive with a clock and no other way of stopping you. And guess why reactive doesn't matter. Because you can sit back and create the perfect hand of double force, flash, hulk, blue cards while they wait and wait and can't do anything because as soon as they can't stop flash, force, force, they will lose. And what if they do? They burned their hand, you burned yours, but you are a TWO. CARD. COMBO. It's really easy to just go off again. If they don't have more than stifle, then it's very easy to go off. That's why force and daze are in the deck.
Okay so Goblins? Easy, everyone gets that. They are super aggressive but still infinitely slower than this deck. Thresh? The same counterbase generally except they have to put a clock on the table or you can just attempt to go off on their eot then untap and do it again. Solidarity? A fifty card combo vs a 2 card combo? Puh-leeze. Landstill is a joke, the match is unreal easy if you just bide your time. What are they going to do, race you with factory?
Name something else. Survival, way too slow. TES, more inconsistent and they don't like Daze + FoW. Belcher, see above. It goes on.
There is a close to even match. That's Iggy with Leyline. and the mirror (obviously). But thats all that can stop this deck as of now. Discard is irrelevant. I was first turn Ritual, duress, hymn'd, then sinkhole'd, then hymn'd, then duressed, and I still won easily. Brainstorm and the mirage tutors are very good ways of protecting your hand. I just spent a turn or two rebuilding and then went off.
Right now, the format is actually stopping most of the people on this forum from being bad players and actually USING the Pacts. The pacts mean you have to go off. the deck is a freakin two card combo, not solidarity or something. Part of its strength is you can go off multiple times if necessary. Both Pacts mean you either do it now or lose. You are already an easy turn 2 kill generally, you want to speed that up a quarter of a turn? Phfff.
The cards won't change in 8 minutes, I am pretty sure, because it's no Mind's Desire in Vintage, but it will June 1st. And I played against a landstill player tonight who was like 12-0 in matches vs Flash. Then we played and he got wrecked 6-0 because the players he played didn't get how to fight through hate.
This deck is everything affinity, tinker, draw7 wanted to be in terms of crazy broken decks. It has a 2 card 2 mana combo in the best color with the best cards backing it up. If you think you have a good match with a current deck in the format, you are wrong. Honestly, you might 50/50 at best.
Discount me if you'd like but I am saying this from a guy with no emotional investment in any deck in this format. Flash is the best possible deck right now. And Leyline is the only card in the format that is scary to the deck. REB, Stifle, blah blah blah, are terrible. You either Leyline or pack it up.
If you disagree, don't play legacy for awhile (other formats exist, believe me). Find a player who understands combo, which is hard, again believe me, and you'll see that discard is only minor incoveniance, stifle is only good vs bad players, same with the blasts, mage is even worse than stifle, chalice is on 1 is only good on the play before they just dig the piece they are missing, and 3sphere is miserable.
Leyline though actually stalls the game for at least 2 turns, which is more than any other card I've read. June 1st will mark the passing of this deck. Its now 12:01, and I am going to see if this post was relevant after all.
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
Quote:
Originally Posted by
tivadar
I've respected your rulings knowledge in the past, but I can't believe this is the attitude you take on this. I can see that you're correct about them not changing things before the B/R update, and I can see why, and perhaps that's all you meant. But if people aren't encouraged to email to protest this, then we have no voice. If we have a format, and WotC wants to sponsor events for us, then they had better listen when the community as a whole starts telling them to examine the power level of a particular card.
To send a message to Aaron Forsythe, assuming he's the one you should be messaging, follow the following link, scroll down to the bottom, and select "Respond via Email"
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af167
This is exactly what needed to be said.
We want to be a serious format?
We want to be taken seriously?
Then we had better act serious. If there is a problem, we need to voice our oppinions and address it. We need to use our voices and say "Hey, we think so-and-so needs to be looked at" or "We think such-and-such needs to be done."
If we don't say something, Wizards will just assume we don't care, and will be even less likely to listen to us when we do speak up.
Everyone, if you feel strongly about this, then start writing emails. The very worst thing that can happen is that Wizards ignores us, but at least we showed Wizards that we're ready to be vocal about things that concern us.
Besides, it's not like these guys hate feedback. If I was in their shoes, I'd love it if my customers told me, politely and in an informed manner, what they thought I could improve. It's like we're doing their market research for them!
Re: [Discussion] Hulk Flash
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Originally Posted by
DougieFresh
tl; dr...
The only card that stops this deck after resolving flash is Stifle....tl;dr
Emphasis added.
Therein lies the problem. Instead of freaking out about the chain reaction that happens after Flash resolves, why not keep them from resolving Flash in the first place? Problem solved.
EDIT: I've been checking Gatherer every few minutes now, and still no change in wording. Which means that either a) the update is delayed, or b) it isn't affecting Flash.
