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I've ran a couple in the sideboard for various reasons. Tabernacle is fragile (it even dies to itself) and you would have to cut lock pieces for it. I don't think you can cut prison, and I do think a 2/6 is better than something uncounterable.
In certain situations it could be good to side a couple of them into the deck. But I don't think you can run even narrower control cards than what the deck already plays.
Do you play the deck much?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Magus of the Tabernacle is a kill condition. Magus of the Tabernacle is capable of coming out fast enough to stop a turn one Empty the Warrens, even on the draw and almost always on the play. Magus of the Tabernacle can -block-, and do it well.
Most importantly, though, Magus of the Tabernacle is a one-sided Wrath of God after an Armageddon and will set you up to pound for the win.
I used to test a UW version of this deck a while back and it was pretty crazy. Here is the list reconstructed from memory:
4 Armageddon
4 Magus
4 Ghostly prison
4 Propaganda
4 Chalice of the void
4 Mox diamond
4 Ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
1 Tabernacle (doubly good in my list since it focuses more on mana denial then board sweeping)
2 mishra's
4 Flagstones
4 tundra
2 plains
5 W fetches
4 Crucible
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
Couldn't one cut the Propagandas for Muses and stay in white?Quote:
Originally Posted by technogeek5000
that they could, i didnt realy notice that card. So what i could do to that list now is...
-4 tundra
-5 fetch
-4 propaganda
-2 mishra's (dont need the extra fat)
+3 wasteland
+1 City of traitors
+7 plains
+4 muse
Thats what I said. Why are you asking me that, did I offend you somehow? Im one of about 3 White Stax players in MA I know of thats why Im opinionated about this deck over ones such as TES, Landstill, Dragonstompy, ect. I feel like I have alot of tournament experience with this deck compared to people who play it with their friends or on MWS. I know I listen to those such as Nightmare or you when it comes to Landstill, I somewhat expect people to believe what I say about Stax or Ichorid specifically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Ugh oh fight gonna break out on the stax thread. Better get the guys from Landstill to clean this up lmao! Just kidding. BTW Stax is like my hidden girlfriend in the closet. You wanna do it with her, but each time you go to you get this odd feeling that somewhere somehow you know its just not the right time or place to reveal the hidden fantasy to your wife.
That said, how is everyone? Im fine. I wanted to know a matchup analysis is for angel stax. Im considering building it.
Heres what I consider good matchups..Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Goblins, Threshold, TES, Iggy, Belcher, Deadguy, Goyf Sligh, Ichorid
The decks you devestate are ones that rely on 1cc and 2cc strategies that are crippled by Chalice and Trinisphere. On the other end of the spectrum you have game against aggro with Ghostly Prisons, Tabernacle effects, and maybe Exalted Angel.
Even Matchups..
Dragon Stompy, Faerie Stompy, Rock, MUC
Your even matchups have a chance against you because they're mana curve can combat your taxing effects or Armageddons. They have threats that are normally out of range for Magus, Explosives, Ghostly Prison, and Chalice; such as Rakdos Pit Dragon or Sea Drake. They can match your prison sometimes depending who's on the play. Playing a Chalice for 0 can be devestating against Stompy since you knock out their morph cards and moxen.
Bad Matchups..
Landstill, Survival, Loam
Your bad matchups are decks that can put more than one perm on the board a turn easily and survive both the taxing effects and prison pieces. None of the above decks are devestated by Chalice or Trinisphere and have Crucible, Loam, or tutorable artifact/enchantment hate. Armageddon is great against each of them and the best tactic seems to couple it with Exalted Angel to take them down quickly.
Hope that helps a bit.
I sort of agree with Bane's evaluations, with a couple of notable exceptions:
1) Deadguy
I am seriously puzzled that you consider this a good matchup - if you look earlier in the thread, there's a pretty long discussion about how best to solve this very problem, with some people going as far as sideboarding Duskrider Peregrine (Silverdragon) or Gift of Estates (myself).
Everything that Pikula does hurts you: discard is a bitch because you have relatively few business spells. Land destruction is a bitch because your curve is so high. Vindicate is a bitch with STD and a vagina dentata. In fact, most of my wins against Pikula involve just plain broken openings, such as turn 1 Chalice, turn 2 Mox-Crucible-Wastelock, turn 3 Angel.
And I'm not sure if you were including them here, but the latest trend in Deadguy is to splash green for Tarmogoyf and frickin' Pernicious Deed. I've played that matchup a few times and it's a solid nightmare; IMO, the only way you can realistically win is to side in Jotun Grunts and Suppression Fields and hope to manascrew them faster than they can manascrew you.
2) Survival
This has been far from terrible in my experience, either in RGB or BGW builds. While they do in theory have all the tools to deal with your attacks (mana dudes, discard, Survival into Genesis into Harmonic Sliver, etc.), in practice it's a challenge for them to put them to use. Chalice is pretty good against them at both 1 and 2 (Chalice@1 on the play is especially a beating, and so is Trinisphere). Mana denial is super-effective since they run so few lands and mostly nonbasics; Magus is a ridiculous wrecking ball, even more when paired with Prison or, god forbid, Armageddon. And while the singleton maindeck Harmonic Sliver may not make you happy, it's fairly hard for them to get to use it more than once.
In fact, about the only bad card you have against them is Smokestack, which (in my configuration) gets sided out nicely for Suppression Field.
There is a version running around (Tao's, I think it was) that maindecks Pernicious Deed. I can see that one giving you fits, but I would guess it represents only a minimal percentage of SotF lists.
EDIT: And having just played two frustrating games against it, I must add that Welder Trinket Survival is (surprise) quite good vs. Stax! Even that, though, was fairly crippled by a single Magus, and I was a different land (anything but Tomb) away from dropping a second one and sealing the game.
I havent played against he green splash yet but your right, I dont know why I threw that one in there.
Survival usually tools me since Thoughtseize and Therapy are great against you on the play and arent a huge deal for them to lose if you do drop Chalice for 1. Witness can be a nightmare for you when they sideboard Krosan Grips and Magus of the Moon can really slow you down to a crawl.
I also side Suppression Field against them but it can still be rough even if they're paying 2 to vial out a goyf.
Ok, this weekend I tested nilith or nihil's model or what not. I noticed a couple of probobly obvious things about the deck that I want to bring up. This deck is so draw dependant its rediculous. I was also eating alot of my own damage in games which really sucks, and exalted angel was actually win more. Now maybe I tested the deck wrong and played it too controlish rather then tempo ish, but I just couldn't feel the deck.
Have you guys ever considered putting draw into the deck? Horizon canopy/ cycle lands something. I just was soo blown out by how likely I was to lose based on running 25 lands and no draw spells. It was really annoying. Although armageddon was devastating when it resolved. I actually geddoned away a u/w landstill players mana base a couple of pieces at a time and got him to all non basic non dual lands in his deck. That was pretty hot.
So inform me on what to do because im lost. I understand the basic combo's to set up sphere followed by an armageddon on say t3 on the draw t4 on the play. Then follow that up with some other cool tricks and just finish them off with a concession or a beating via mishra's or exalted.
It's a Tomb/City/Mox deck. That comes with the package.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
This is pretty curious. Although not the main one, one of the reasons I like Exalted Angel is how it lets me be more aggressive with Tomb and double-land mana burn.Quote:
I was also eating alot of my own damage in games which really sucks, and exalted angel was actually win more.
I tried Horizon Canopy and was underwhelmed. With Crucible, it's OK but only once I had already made enough land drops. Without Crucible, eh.Quote:
Have you guys ever considered putting draw into the deck? Horizon canopy/ cycle lands something.
I have not tested cycling lands - CIPT scared me off.
(Oh, and while we're talking about lands, I recently went -1 Mishra's Factory, +1 Plains in my list.)
I haven't seen you play so this is just a guess, but you're making the deck sound much more combo-ish than it really is. You do not need to achieve a perfect one-two KO, or even to get a complete lock at all, especially if you have an Angel to apply pressure; what is important is to slow the opponent down to a crawl. Determine as soon as possible which spells in your hand will affect the game the most and focus on resolving those.Quote:
So inform me on what to do because im lost. I understand the basic combo's to set up sphere followed by an armageddon on say t3 on the draw t4 on the play. Then follow that up with some other cool tricks and just finish them off with a concession or a beating via mishra's or exalted.
For example, two Prisons and a surviving Angel are far from a hard lock, but they can still win a lot of games. Ditto for, say, Crucible/Waste and a Magus. Or an aggressive Smokestack@2 against control.
The hardest part is to initially gain the upper hand - after that, your advantage feeds itself, because your earlier lock pieces impede your opponent's ability to answer the new ones. If you have a Flagstones in play and two more mana in hand, cast that Armageddon. Go for the turn two flipped Angel, especially postboard.
Sure, I understand where your comming from and maybe it was just the lands that brought me down. I never saw truly good starting hands other then maybe once, but past that I was either mana flooded or mana short. There was no "medium." I also wish I had played more wastelands more often then not. But who knows. EE absolutely wrecked challices. Made me sad. Usually im the one doing those nasty little tricks.
heh,
I actually tested 3 MD Serum Powder (hence SP) for more consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
http://sales.starcitygames.com/cards...rum_powder.jpg
As you've already figured: STAX is heavily starting hand dependant, so for me SP seemed an obvious candidate to make it MD.
Let's analyze SP as a MD choice for Armageddon Stax real quick:
PROS:
- More STAX consistency ftw!
- it's colorless
- hardly ever a completely dead draw: Mid-/lategame look at it as a bad Mindstone - it still does it's part, it sacs to Smokestack :laugh: , produces mana - you get my point.
- Early game it's not even that bad: I like the fact that you can ramp up to four mana in the face of City of Traitors w/o having to sac it for a new land drop (which can be quite helpful at times) and so on..
- Games 2/3 helps you see your SB hate more frequently & even more importantly earlier than usual.
- Stax can bare to rfg entire starting hands, because it's unlikely to be cut off your crucial cards (all 3/4ofs) that way
CONS:
- You usually don't want to see it mid-/late game
- slightly lowers your must-counter count [yet, potentially provides you defense grids 5-7]
What to cut for SP:
when playing with powders, I ran a max of 24 lands (so pretty much cut 1-2 lands). Cutting 2 lands feels a lot at first glance. You've got to take into consideration though that with the SP-tech you'll get mana-screwed less frequently, plus you have 3 more (potential) mana sources.
Like Silverdragon, I lowered my Smokestack count to 2-3.
And I tested a 3/3 Magus-Angel split.
To be honest, I couldn't come up with a final conclusion about whether it's worth the virtual sacrifice. So I'd be happy to see more STAX.dec players test it and report their findings.
*Keep up the "prison work" :cool:
Klaus
Interesting. Syrom powder sounds good in theory.
What is the version of stax that runs the portal earthquake that doesnt hit characters with horsemanship. This version outdated? I have no idea, im just asking. Why does amrageddon stax not run tangle wire? Why did you cutt down from 4 stax to 3?
I know these are alot of questions but my brain is bleeding from curiousity.
Sun Tower?Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
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Originally Posted by mossivo1986
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Originally Posted by Silverdragon
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Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
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Originally Posted by Nihil
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Originally Posted by emidln
Thanks for the suggestion. This sounds like it could be worth testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Serum Powder is a great theory, but a very sub-par idea when you really break into the numbers...
Here's the basic underlying math (I'm going to go over this in brief since I'm at work - I'm willing to do more later if someone wants/asks) for a 60 card deck -
Play 4 - ~40% chance of having in opening seven
Play 3 - ~32%
Play 2 - ~22%
Play 1 - ~12%
Serum Powder has the power (in theory) to improve your opening hand on the condition that Serum Powder is in your opening hand. That's combinatorial probability so you multiply the probability of having it times the probability of having an unkeepable hand (assuming you play 4x Serum Powder)...
100% of possible 7-card hands suck -> 40% chance of improvement
75% of 7-card hands stinky -> 30% chance
50% of 7-card hands blow -> 20% chance
25% of 7-card hands terrible -> 10% chance
10% of 7-card hands bad -> 4% improvement
Think about what those numbers mean - (1) you wouldn't play a deck with 100% chance of crap hands (2) I, like most, wouldn't play a deck that blows 75% of the time (3) might describe an all-in combo like Belcher or Ichorid (4) would be a shaky combo but isn't really unreasonable considering all things and (5) is probably realistic if we ignore mana-type issues. So really, you are looking at possibly improving your opening hand <10% of the time, if you play 4x Serum Powder.
I've played this deck for a while now and in all my testing I can honestly say that the most difficult aspect of playing 'Geddon Stax is knowing what hands to keep and mulligan. But, if I'm entirely honest, a lot of that decision has to do with whether or not I know what my opponent is playing. A solid opening 7 against goblins does not translate into a great 7 versus TES. There are, of course, going to be cards that bridge the gap, but not all of them. If you evalute hands that you would keep or toss not based on what your opponent is playing, the numbers really aren't that far off of any other deck in the format. If you take that knowledge about your opponent and 'back-apply' (hindsight being 20/20 and all), you will see an increase in 'bad' opening hands, but Serum Powder isn't the answer - better opponent scouting is.
Furthermore, none of this analysis actually takes into account that by playing 4x Serum Powder, you are diluting the deck and worsening its initial draws. (This, I feel, is often a subtle point when evaluating things and deserves a highlight.)
Here's another long-winded thought experiment. You want to improve bad draws (say they occur 35% of the time), so you find room for 4x Serum Powder in 'Geddon Stax. This has the potential to improve those draws 14% of the time (35%*40%). But Serum Powder does nothing to improve Stax on its own (we currently don't play any 3cc colorless mana generators), so it will show up in a hand we wanted to keep 26% (65%*40%) of the time. Now, just to complicate the matter, let's say that 50% of those hands would've been keepable with any other card Stax plays besides Serum Powder. This means we just killed 13% of our otherwise keepable hands. This means that Serum Powder (as a 4-of) helped us 1% (14% improvement - 13% hand dilution) of the time. I don't think a hypothetical (I say hypothetical because I am making the huge assumption that all of the decks match-ups stay equal with where they currently are with this not-so-insignificant change to the decklist) 1% improvement is worth 4 slots (the numbers go lower for playing less than 4).
There are slots that people can play with and personalize the deck to their own playstyle, etc. etc., but Serum Powder doesn't make the cut for me.
Fred Bear...
Fred Bear, you are ignoring mullingans in your math.
Remember that mulligans + Serum Powder is TEH huge tilt on probabilities, not Serum Powder by itself in the opening seven (see Vintage Ichorid, that can grant a mulligan to one of the four Bazaars in the deck 90something% of the time).
I'm playing this deck for enough time to know that it looses more to its own bad starts (when they happen) than to Deadguy (happily for us a seldom played deck). Enough time to know how great it would be to have something to tilt the probabilities a bit more to our side. I'm fully willing to put some time on testing Serum Powder for the consistency it can bring to the deck.
Not to say that SP isn't a risky card, it is, it might even be lousiest card ever to touch Geddon Stax. But math (and flawed math for that matter) allied to preconceptions, besides not being the same as actually testing the friggin card, is a sure route to imobility.
I'm willing to put in some work with goldfishing opening hands to see how SP feels; obviously it's value increases games 2-3 as you know what you are looking for. My list:
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
1 Exalted Angel
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
7 Plains
What should I cut for the SP's?
Thinking:
-1 Crucible
-1 Trini
-1 ???
+3 Serum Powder