What do people think about Lightning Helix in UWR builds? It doubles as removal and life gain, plus it gives the deck a little bit of reach if needed.
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What do people think about Lightning Helix in UWR builds? It doubles as removal and life gain, plus it gives the deck a little bit of reach if needed.
I was going to ask the same question after reading Quodo's list (and a good call on the EE btw, I have had success running EE in 3 color decks over the last year, I don't see why that would be a problem in 3cc Landstill). Traditionally, Burn or burn heavy Sligh/RDW have been Landstill's worst matchup (other than Solidarity...). Is the additional 1cc & dependence on two colors enough of a disadvantage to disqualify Lightning Helix? Landstill has a number of advantages over other decks trying to run the Helix (like Burn and SDZoo) in that it does not require it early to win and can not only search as much (if not more...) but recur lands with Crucible. Helix being an instant, unlike Pyroclasm, means that Port or even Wasteland can't stop it. They can dictate when you cast it, but not truly stop Helix.
Thanks for the UWR build quodo, it seems pretty stable.
The addition of burn spell gives you more spot removal against quick aggro deck, stifle and explosives gives the deck a lot of flexibility.
Here are my suggsestion:
-3 bolt;+1StP,+1 F//I, +1 Brainstorm : StP is way better than bolt, F//I gives you more versatility + it may remove 2 targets + it raises up the number of blue cards.
-2 island;+2 conclave : i know cip tapped sucks, but w/out any DoJ or ED you require more than just 4 win condition. It is better if you need to race your opponent.
In SB:
Disenchant is necessary against survival: if you fail to destroy, Survival of the Fittest just after opponent played it, he will fetch for Mystic Snakes, Genesis, Kiki-Jiki, Xantid swarm, then he plays a hunting ground (gg).
Pyroclasm is cheap and great against any aggro deck.
Slice and dice, is certainly great against mirror. Take this example:
me: standstill in play
oponent: cycle a DoJ
me : cycle a SnD
To Scrumdogg: it is kind of situational to have both a tundra + a volcanic in play at the same time at the 4th turn. I prefer playing lightning bolt on a 1st turn lackey.
Welcome to The Source.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neoprout
Before I go any further, could you explain why a Tundra and a Volcanic is needed by turn 4? Since the deck already runs Fire/Ice, it's much better to fetch for a Volcanic and sit on it with F/I. The Helix can act as a late game reach, or a medium speed removal the turn after Wrath resolved. (Turn 5/6) Like Scrumdogg said in his post, Landstill is in no rush to cast its burn spells.
The only beef I have with this deck is the lack of Wrath. While I understand EE and Disk fills its role, but honestly they are both situational and slower than Wrath, and Disk requires protection as well.
I'm running a list like the one on the first page of this thread, but I want to add crucible back in. What cards should I cut/move to the SB? I know that I would cut at least one Akroma's Vengeance, but what other card could be cut in favor of a Crucible? Disenchant seems like the next most likely target for being cut. What about going to 3 Wraths? Is that safe?
Finally, that UWR Landstill looks really good, and the way the you built it really reduces the nessecity of the W component, which is good. I think that Lightning Helix should be run over Lighting Bolt, b/c the Helix's lifegain is good in that it slows the game. Also, another win condition like Faerie Conclave or even DoJ could be very powerful. Turn 10, Cycle DoJ with only one white mana for 4-5 tokens is a powerful option. Also, DoJ can three or four for one goblins with ease.
The main problem I have in UWR Landstill, is having 2 White mana on turn 4 (or more if I already used/got targeted by a wasteland). So Wrath is a bit too dangerous I think to be used. I know that decks like Fish have the same problem, even if playing only 2 colors (look at Godzilla's list on the Fish thread : it uses Gallina's Knight instead of Siver Knight just because of that.) And if you start diluting the creature threats by exploding just those who matters, you should then have no problem waiting for the disk.
On the Helix point, I have to test. I know the 6 point difference (3 lifegain+3 damage done/prevented by killing a creature) is huge, but I don't know if it worth the color problem. If only we had a WR fetch :laugh:
Neoprout, about removing the Lightning Bolt, I don't think it's a good idea, seeing how many time Fish or Gro can use their Meddling to shut down StP and F/I.
I would'nt include more than 1 Conclave, and only to be able to resist 4 StP into the opponent's deck. I sometime killed my own manlands with blasts just to avoid an RFG effect and abuse Crucible.
I don't think Pyrocasm will be in my sideboard, nore will be Slice. Pyroclasme is good, but only against deck that have no Pro-Red (that is to say Goblin... And that's all). Slice is a good option, but there again, too situationnal. Playing a card to kill a single deck, and not a strategy (understand : to kill Landstill, and not Control decks) is a lack of versatility.
I think Disenchant may get the 3 sideboard slots, but I'm not really sure, as I can already use EE and Disk to destroy a SotF.
Edit :
@dsg123456789
Lookingat the first page list, I think you can easily cut one brainstorm and one dragon, it should just go well. That would make 2 Crucibles in, and with the facts, brain and Stanstill, you should draw them just when you want them.
For a queston that actually matters.
What steps, if any, are going to be implemented to deal with Flame Vault decks?
Meddling Mage becoming standard in the board comes to mind, but what else can be done?
EDIT: Spatula suggested Abeyance and that's not a bad idea for the board either.
Edited By Artowis on 1127950934
As I posted in the devoted Vault thread, I don't see this as the worst problem for Standstill considering the flexibility of the main and sideboards.
Pithing Needle
Suppression Field (boarding in Exalted too)
Null Rod
Countering the Flame (unless they're running Overmaster)
I really think there's something that I'm missing because not only this deck but this format is sufficiently adaptable to deal with this combo.
The main problem is those are the wrong solutions. Pithing Needle and Co only matter if you can put pressure on the opponent. Goblins can and Landstill cannot. They do nothing to address the critical issue of getting outdrawn at 2-1 ratio or worse and then getting run over.
I said Meddling Mage was good, because it can actually shut off draw or Burning Wish while providing some sort of pressure. Abeyance is a stop-gap solution, but at least it cantrips.
I don't think Landstill wants to be running Suppression Field ever, considering that it hurts Fetches, Wastes, Manlands, and anything that can cycle (DoJ, Vengeance). Meddling Mage would be good except that many Flame Vault decks run MD Fire/Ice and 8 Counters, and so they have more answers to the Meddling Mage than you do ways to protect it, and by more answer I mean that they will have an answer every single time due to their draw/search/sheer number of answers (wish-->pyroclasm, fire, counterspell, FoW).
Ghost Lit Warder, Last Word, and Blue Elemental Blast, looking purely at cards that answer Flame Vault while being difficult themselves to answer, seem like very viable options. The former two are uncounterable counters, which can stop the first 1-2 Flame Fussilades. The Warder can also be hardcast and disrupt their gameplan for a while. BEB counters Fussilade and only costs one mana, and it is flexible in that it is fine against goblins as well.
disclaimer: I'm just trying to brainstorm and get new ideas mixed in, so even though the cards I suggested are probably not the best cards, they are decent against an unsuspecting Flame Vault player.
Abeyance is fine as it essentially counters the Flame Fusillade while cantripping. Also in White, Gilded Light is a potential option that can also be useful against other combo (ID, Belcher) and the Nemesis - Burn. Meddling Mage is fine and in testing against the FlameVault deck has provided the best answers to date - although better when backed by counterspells (Gro was tested more than Landstill) or Mom (a more controlling version of Angel Stompy). Even then, the decks were splitting evenly - and full Fire/Ice tech had not been run in the main yet. This is going to be a lot like Solidarity - there will have to be some options maindeck and 7-8 cards to come in from the board. The good news is that UWR Landstill can already run the 8 Blast Plan, unfprtunately that would be 4 of each color :p meaning 4 REBs for Solidarity & 4 BEBs for Flame Vault, although the Meddling Mages would make an even 8 cards for each deck....
Something just hit my mind : what about replacing White and Red by Green and Black ? I think it could be really usefull, giving us tools like Pernicious Deed, Putrefy and others. And even a secondary kill embodied by Nether Spirit. It could also be very good against combo, as we could play Duress or Therapy maindeck.
I'll throw a list in a few hours, when i'll consider it "not too bad".:laugh:
I was thinking...
What about splashing for Green for Life from Loam? It seems like an uncounterable Crucible?
1G, Sorcery, Rare, Ravnica
Dredge 2
Return up to 3 target lands from your graveyard to hand.
I mean. That would probably work very well with Intuition. Maybe it does not fit in Landstill. But then I thought it may worth a mention.
I am thinking of testing
Something like adding a little side kick engine:
3 Tropical Island
1 Forrest
3 Windswept Heath.
1 Life from Loam.
1 Intuition.
1 Regrowth
2 Wasteland (For a waste,waste,Life)
How's that?
Tropical Island and Windswept heath both can act as U source. Life from Loam is uncounterable, so one's enough.
Intuition acts as a second Life from Loam. Or ite can fetch something with regrowth if the situation is desperate.
Regrowth can always be nice as it is redundancy (which this deck builds upon).
??? What do you guys think? or is it not worth it?
What matchups would adding Life add?
Moreover, what actually useful cards would you cut to add in the engine?
-Slay
Green is bad in Landstill. You don't gain anything you don't already have, and most of what you do gain is just win-more. Life from Loam is not uncounterable, in fact, it's quite counterable, and nets you zero card advantage if you dredge it. (I know, if you dredge out land, you return it to your hand. You're better off just playing a draw spell.) It also breaks a Standstill, where Crucible does not. If your adamant to splash, splash red. It's much, much better in almost every situation.
I'm going to have to agree with Mr. Nightmare on this one, I just can't see green playing a viable role in landstill. The syngergy just doesn't flow with the rest of the deck. Just out of curiosity, How many of you plan on bringing landstill to GP Philly? ???
The only tools i can really see getting from green are pernicious deed (since gobbos cant really kill it), putrefy(maybe), and treetop village.
Your first two cards are both B/G. 4 color Landstill has a terrible manabase. This deck has enough issues with its mana in 2 colors, adding to that is not usually a good idea.
@Isochronic - I still haven't decided what to take. I think it depends on how well I perform in the GPTs.
Ok, beyond the obvious every person and there mother siding in 10 millions disenchant effects post SB...which they do anyway against Landstill if they run them SB...and price issues, which we ignore when trying to create the most optimal decklist, how about replacing 4xWoG with 4xMoat MD in UW Landstill. They have exactly the same casting cost, are both sorcery speed, but Moat seems a more permenant answer than WoG. I see Goblins doing a complete recovery after a WoG in 1-2 turns while Moat would shut them off from everything but Sharpshooter/Fanatic/SCG combo out which can easily be prevented if that is all you need to use your counters on.
Perhaps Moat would allow the N. Disk/Vengence slot to turn into a blue card such as Stifle or Teferi's Respose to help out the lack of blue cards in standard UW Landstill to support FoW better and protect your own manabase so you can reliably cast Moat every time you see it.
Now it might be that getting WW up before you're dead might be the problem in itelf and therefore neither Moat, WoG or Vengence are viable anymore now that the average fundamental turn (specifically of Goblins, but the format as a whole too) has been increased a hair in the past 3-4 months. Discuss plz, I'll get to testing myself as soon as I can to test this theory this weekend.
BTW: Yes, this is completely ripped/inspired by Smmenen's discussion on Starcity today.
Am I off-base or would Humility + Moat shut everybody down? I do realize that now Landstill would not have a win condition....at least until late in the game when they disenchant their own effect...but since when has Landstill cared about anything except getting to the late game? Teferi's Response should absolutely be a miandeck card with goblins running not only at the top of the format but 25-35% of the format. Goblins specifically imported Port and Wasteland to deal with the Landstill matchup, why has the 'adaptable control king' not done so? Don't get me wrong, I hate Landstill & now have my pet deck beating it consistently but if people are going to run it, why not run an effective version?