[DTB] U/G/x Thresh - a.k.a. Not Quite Gro, SuperGro

[quote:post_uid14="bardo_trout"][color=#000000:post_uid14]With Mental Note, I hit threshold on turn 2 this afternoon.[/color:post_uid14][/quote:post_uid14]
[color=#000000:post_uid14]Quite impressive. I wouldn't have thought it possible in Legacy to achieve Threshold on turn 2, except maybe at the risk of destroying your hand. I stand corrected.

On a completely random tangent, your initial post was the impetus for my Blue Armageddon spinoff, which I posted about in the Newbie forum. Thanks for the idea. It probably won't become a Deck to Beat, but it's quite fun so far, even though I have much tweaking to do (several people have been quite helpful already).[/color:post_uid14]

I was thinking about this in the shower this morning (WOOT for TMI) and I realized that with Mental Note, the red splash can pull off a turn 4 kill. Cool, huh?

So has anyone actually tried dredge in the deck? Or is it just outright dismissed? dont confuse my curiosity with ignorance. I just havent seen it done or really mentioned anywhere. excuse me for skimming quickly through 15 pages and missing it tho!

life from the loam is an option but i was thinking thresh lands over cycle ones really. especially coliseum.

Dredge is card disadvantage. Or at least it acts that way when you try to get threshold with it. This isn't the deck for it.
-Slay

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Originally Posted by Lego_Army_Man

I was thinking about this in the shower this morning (WOOT for TMI) and I realized that with Mental Note, the red splash can pull off a turn 4 kill. Cool, huh?

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Even without Mental Note, I know that UGW can potentially kill on turn 5.

Turn 2 Werebear.
Turn 3 Mystic Enforcer (using Werebear mana).
Turn 4 Threshold; swing for 10.
Turn 5 Swing for 10.

But that's extremely rare, as you can imagine.

With only 10 creatures in the UGR version, I have found that it is sometimes hard to switch to the beatdown-mode.
This is partly because of the low number of creatures and moreso because Werebear and Fledgling Dragon can be targeted and removed (which they are).

I think there are two ways to solve this:

1) Blastoderm in the Fledgling Slot as a difficult to remove fattie.

or

2) Kird Ape as an additional quick beater. Although in the intro-post it was said that there are no red creatures that can compete with Mongoose and Bear at that cost, I tend to disagree. Kird gives you some bang for your buck.


The fact that the winning deck from Lille didn't run any late-game creature, combined with the fact that there isn't a draw engine anymore (no Predicts or AKs) suggest that the deck should probably focus more on the early game and finish off opponents as quickly as possible.
For that purpose, Kird Ape is excellent. Kird allows you to apply more early game pressure and helps to end games faster. It is so much better when you have an early creature in play when you Daze. The 3 toughness also allows it to survive Pyroclasm, which is important against Goblins. It can also block and survive a first turn Lackey unlike Mongoose. It also trades with every other Goblin.


Against combo, Kird allows you to race better while still countering relevant things.
Against control, where you are the beatdown, early threats are crucial, as you can't own the lategame.
Against aggro, Kird helps to blunt the initial assault and helps to ameliorate the problem of too few creatures.

What do you think?

It is worth noting that Kird Ape also dodges graveyard hate, which could become important with the surge of popularity of the archetype in general. My experience is with the UG/w build of the deck, so I do not know enough about this version to comment other then that.

While I do not think Kird Ape would be consistant enough to be considered, what about Giant Solifuge? Its the guildpact fatty that costs 2(r/g)(r/g) and is a 4/3 trample, haste, untargetable. It brings the beats, and it would deal one 2 less damage than a Dragon over 3 turns. Perhaps it deserves a slot?

The 3 toughness of the new Guiltpack guy is the only issue I would take with him. The idea of the finisher has been in the past to be big enough that it is out of range of small removal and to have a form of evasion. The Guiltpack guy can't be removed with targeted removal, but he can be killed by a few blockers no problem. Also if the ground gets clogged up in any match, but especially the mirror match the Guiltpack guy is crap. He dies to Werebear and Nimble Mongoose. At least Blastoderm is big enough that he can handle other creatures in combat pretty well. And Blastoderm can't be burned or Swords'd.

I guess I don't see much issue with Kird Ape. He seems under powered, but then again I'm comparing him to 3/3s for 1 and 4/4s for 2... and that's not really fair. The only question I would have is that if you are going to play another ground creature that dies to Lightning Bolt, why not bring back Dryad? He is two mana, but how often are you planning to play Kird Ape turn one anyway. I usually spend a turn or two cantriping and setting up my mana anyway so I don't see much disadvantage in playing Dryad over Kird Ape. They are both susceptible to burn and Swords, it only takes one spell being cast to make Dryad attack for the same amount as Ape, once you have cast two spells the Dryad is just gets better.

Dryad requires you to set it up, while Kird Ape does not. Dryad takes this deck into a different direction. More elaborate reasons for its exclusion were mentioned in this thread somewhere.

When you don't have Threshold (usually in the first 3 turns), Kird Ape is the best creature and provides a plan b for graveyard hate. The fact that it eats Meddling Mage makes the mirror even more favorable.

The problem with Kird Ape is that he'll never be bigger than 2/3 - which is just too small to do what creatures in this deck need to do. He doesn't outclass the creatures of other decks, he doesn't provide a quick clock by himself, and he isn't very burn-resistent.

The other big problem with Ape is that he's vulnerable to manabase disruption. I mean, you wouldn't even play Werebear if Wasteland shut him off as well as Tormod's Crypt does.

And just to counter a specific point you brought up, Ape is terrible against 1st turn Lackey because you don't have access to Taiga.

And to counter your specific point, a single copy of Taiga is in my deck. Maybe a second one will find its way in.

Although Taiga can't be fetched on the first turn every game, I don't run into first turn Lackey every game, so the probability is about even.
What matters is a good matchup against Goblins, and Kird helps in that aspect.

What I find more interesting is your comment about Kird's size and vulnerability. While he doesn't outclass as many creatures as a threshed Mongoose will do, he still takes care of most 1cc and 2cc critters. Threshed Goose and Bear coupled with direct damage will pick up what's left.

The Wasteland issue is the one that concerns me the most. Clever use of Fetches helps here. The fact that Zoo and other 3color decks also use Kird says something about its playability even in front of Wastelands.

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Originally Posted by Bongo

And to counter your specific point, a single copy of Taiga is in my deck. Maybe a second one will find its way in.

Although Taiga can't be fetched on the first turn every game, I don't run into first turn Lackey every game, so the probability is about even.
What matters is a good matchup against Goblins, and Kird helps in that aspect.

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How many green fetches do you run? Even without getting into an argument over bastardizing the manabase to run a subpar creature, granting you access to Taiga doesn't mean you can get away with saying Ape will block first-turn Lackey and survive. I don't know what you mean by "the probability is about even," but it seems to me that Ape will come out as a 1/1 the majority of the time, and that makes it very poor at dealing with early Lackeys.

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What I find more interesting is your comment about Kird's size and vulnerability. While he doesn't outclass as many creatures as a threshed Mongoose will do, he still takes care of most 1cc and 2cc critters. Threshed Goose and Bear coupled with direct damage will pick up what's left.

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Some of the more important things Ape loses to include Gro's creatures (he's awful in the mirror match), Mishra's Factory, Troll Ascetic, Watchwolf, and Nantuko Shade (yes, given enough mana Shade will kill anything). Being red also means Silver Knight can block him all day.

That list goes on, but the more important problem with Kird's size is that he is a poor clock. Gro can't protect a single creature for 10 turns. Against control, having a small creature like Ape is almost useless, as it forces you to overextend into their mass removal, for little gain, because a 2/3 on its own just isn't good enough.

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The Wasteland issue is the one that concerns me the most. Clever use of Fetches helps here. The fact that Zoo and other 3color decks also use Kird says something about its playability even in front of Wastelands.

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Most Zoo decks run ~8 green duals, and 8+ fetchlands that get them. That says nothing about Wasteland's effect on Kird Ape in Gro.

The NQG decks that have been around forever, probably mainly popularized by cavernninja, have always run 10 creatures. It's not that hard to find a threat and it's not that hard to protect them if you've been holding your counters or naming with mage correctly. A lot of the time when people start to get used to gro they try and counter more things than they need to, and as a result the fatties get removed and they get stomped. Try seeing what it's like to use your fat as a trump and then use counters to protect it.

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Originally Posted by Bongo

The fact that Zoo and other 3color decks also use Kird says something about its playability even in front of Wastelands.

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A lot of the 3 color decks using Kird Ape, that I've seen on this forum anyway, are based in green though. So if they play Taiga turn one and it gets wasted chances are they were going to play Savannah or to a lesser degree Bayou turn two anyway. In which case there is still a forest in play and the Ape is still a 2/3.

Just to add a bit of a rebuttal to the Dryad statements. In actuality it is Kird Ape that "requires you to set it up". Kird Ape relies on you having both of your splash colors for him to do anything; Dryad has no demand on what needs to be in play outside of mana to cast him. He does demand that you play a spell or two to make him worthwhile creature. I think that including Dryad is completely feasible if one feels so inclined. The deck has tons of cheap spells it wants to be casting anyway. With 10-12 cantrips, one can easily gro the creature without wasting business spells to do so. I think the problem that Dryad creates is when people place too much stress on either keeping him in play or making him huge. If you play him out and cast a Brainstorm, he is a 2/2 for 2 and you cast a cantrip that you should be casting anyways. The issue comes when you start wasting counterspells or throwing around burn when it would be better if held onto. I think as long as one keeps in mind that they are extra creatures and doesn't over commit themselves to the Dryads they are fine.

That's sort of beside the point though. I think that Kird Ape or Dryad can fit in the deck if one feels strongly about adding either of them. They serve as another speed bump against Goblins, or give you another treat against control.

I honestly haven't had many complaints with the deck playing just Werebears, Geese, and a pair of Dragons. I've been playing one of the lists posted in here with relatively heavy amounts of burn and scry with Predict and it has been playing fine.

The counterarguments to Kird are more or less valid, and I also know that Kird is not the ultimate creature for UGR.

However, I was not satisfied with the usual Sea Drake or Fledgling Dragon, and 8 creatures were sometimes not enough to finish the game quickly, so I experimented with Kird. UGW is a different story, because there you get to play mages. But in UGR, I have found the low number of creatures to be troublesome. Kird is not the biggest bad-ass, but at least he provides some kind of early clock.

Maybe I'm a bad player, but the lack of permanent threats in UGR is an issue that needs to be addressed in my opinion. Although burn can help somewhat, I mostly use it for creature removal.

If there is a better choice than Kird Ape, let me know.

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Originally Posted by Bongo

If there is a better choice than Kird Ape, let me know.

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If win conditions are your problem, you could try isochron scepter.

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If there is a better choice than Kird Ape, let me know.

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Seton's Scout is not bad. I have been running him in an aggro version of the deck and he has been working great.

Roop

I've also seen Seton's Scout used effectively. His first ability rarely comes into play, so he's basically a slightly worse Werebear number 5-8, and can't tap for G. I've seen most of the other Threshold creatures tried as well.

Battlefield Scrounger is basically just worse than Krosan Beast in every way (except for dodging graveyard hate.)

Krosan Beast is a nice 8/8 for 3G, but he has no evasion, and I don't wanna play Aboshan's Desire just for him ;)

Chlorophant can be pretty sick, but the triple Green is just too hard to maintain. Might as well play Vinelasher Kudzu with all these fetches, and I'd have to say he's worse than Dryad in this deck :-P

Nantuko Blightcutter can be a house against certain decks, but again there's the evsaion problem.

Some of the white creatures are interesting, as they have more evasion, but they just don't get big enough for my tastes (and no, I'm not considering Wayward Angel.)

There's obviously nothing to play over 4 Nimble Mongoose, 4 Werebear. In the white splash I'd say nothing beats out Meddling Mage for a smaller creature and Mystic Enforcer for the finisher, so you're really just looking for something for the red version.

Let's check out the Guildpact Spoiler. Wee Dragonauts seems cute, but it might affect the way you play the deck, which I don't think is a good thing. Gelectrode seems like it could deal some damage over the course of a game, but I would love it if he onnly cost two. Seriously though, every time you counter a spell or draw a card, he pings for one. I think the big thing that sets him over the top is that he can help to end ground stalls by pinging away creatures. Seems *TERRIBLE* in the mirror match though. I think he would need testing.

Maybe some of the other Izzet dudes will give you something to look at, or possibly the Simic in Dissension. I'm psyched to see what the Azorius Senate gives us, but I don't hold my hopes too high.

On a random side note (as if this post isn't already large enough) it seems that Giant Solifuge may be a 4/1 Trample, Haste, Untargetable for 4... that tones him down a lot :)

seton's scout isn't bad in a red version, guildpact has that 1GR for a 3/4 that deals a damage anytime anyone uses an activated nonmana ability including fetchlands. That's pretty solid, fat enough to dodge burn and usually deals 4 damage a turn.

But I have yet to hear any good reasons not to run white. So let's all just stick with the...

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Originally Posted by Zelyon

// Lands
3 [UN] Tundra
3 [UN] Tropical Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Windswept Heath
1 [ON] Island
1 [ON] Forest (Could be Plains based on your sideboard)

// Creatures
2 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
4 [OD] Werebear
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [PS] Meddling Mage

// Disruption
4 [UN] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [7E] Counterspell
3 [NE] Daze
1 [MM] Engineered Explosives
1 [MR] Isochron Scepter
1 [BK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Cantrips
4 [JU] Mental Note
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [5E] Brainstorm

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variant shall we.