[OLD] UGr Threshold

About sb, i have tested quite succesfully some slots:

Ancient grudge: This card is good (1rst target = chalice) against goblins g2 to deal with vial and chalice, good against stacks, WW with Vial, jitte, pox,ect
Maybe if i get bored to loose to counterbalance, i'll return to Grip, but i do not see many dangerous enchantments for us (deed can already be handled with needle/stifle, aluren shouldn't resolves, ect...)

Disrupt works fine too, good and fast answer to fast combo (belcher, SI..), good in miror, own some player that keep in my to play around daze, but not around daze + disrupt.

Threads of Disloyalty: Grunt, tarmogoyf, confidant, ravager, ect..., legacy is a fast format with cheap creatures, and in this deck with low curve, threads > control magic

oh, and for creatures config, i choose
4 mangouse
4 tarmo
3-4 dryad, since its still the weakest link, we can cut 1-2, cause 10 or more threath is already a good number

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Originally Posted by noobslayer

I think you should only run basic mountain if you are running eighteen lands.

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Agreed and edited above.

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I'd also try Portent over Serum Visions in that list.

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That's a hard one for me as I'm not used to playing Portent. I guess I'd have to test it.

If you are playing with Dryad, serum vision is just better in my opinion. The fact that you draw a card right away enables you to probably cast at least another spell before attacking with you Dryad.

[QUOTE=aTn;136972]

What should be the sideboard for the post-Flash meta and what sideboard strategy should be used ?

Here's my first thought:

Sideboard:
4 Pyroclasm (Goblins, CRET Belcher, TES, Black based aggro, etc.)
3 Spell Snare (Fish, Black based aggro, etc.)
2 Krosan Grip (the usual: Crypt, Jitte, etc.)
6 ?

Should we play Jitte (like the Gro builds I know - some of them play it MD) ?
Should we dedicate SB slots to Counterbalance-Top ?
Should Stifle number 4 be included in the SB ?
Is Spell Snare still relevant ? I say yes mainly because Grunts tend to show up often in my meta, but I'd like to know what you think.
QUOTE]

I really like a pair of Loaming Shaman in the board, unaffected by needle and a decent beatstick, probably a pair of EE is good as well. I don't think Jitte belongs in this deck, especially with Mongoose but hey ... Jitte is good in just about any deck with a creature in it. Spell Snare to me is just too random and I prefer a hard counter (Counterspell) but thats just personnal preference.

Is anyone testing a gro built with Wee Dragaunots and Dryad beside Hanni...

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Originally Posted by The Marco

Then just keep playing Meathooks, you are not adding anything to this discussion about how to make UGR Thresh better.

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I disagree. I think that examining the pros and cons of UGR Thresh vs. Hooks as well as how UGR Thresh beats Hooks is beneficial to the development and improvement of UGR Thresh.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Thresh actually has a much better matchup vs Slivers than you think. Slivers creatures aren't that good until they establish a couple on the board, whereas Thresh can invest G in a 3/3 or 1G in a 4/5 and go to town early.

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While Thresh's threats to become super effecient once Thresh is reached, one must take into account the time that it takes for it to be reached. It's not like Goose starts as a 3/3 for 1. Goyf can beat decently early (probably a 3/4 on turn 3), but bear, goose, and dryad all take a bit longer to get going. You might be able to beat once with threshold, but by the time you get thresh, Hooks will most likely be well on their way to setting up a formitable army.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Thresh tends to win counter wars against Slivers due to the fact that it has more cantrip to dig for them and is far less mana hungry (i.e Slivers need to invest alot of mana into guys, where Thresh invests far less).

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Thresh does dig more, but in my experience they don't end up with that many more counters than hooks. More, to be sure, but not enough to completely prevent Hooks from developing. Also, Hooks is more mana hungry than Thresh, but that is simply because Hooks plays more creatures and can continually deploy them rather than digging for more.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

If Slivers makes it to the late game, it will usually win.

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Agreed. Please define "late game" though. Turn 6? Turn 8? It seems to me that if Hooks survives the rush that Thres can supposedly produce early game, then Hooks will win.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

In my testing, UGw Thresh was slightly favored vs Slivers in game 1 and I can only see the matchup getting better for UGr Thresh since the burn can be aimed at the dome later on as extended reach.

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Our testing has showed that any Thresh with MM is about 50/50, while any Thresh without MM is in our favor atleast 60/40 if not more because we usually will survive the early game rush. Burn just becomes dead besides reach (which can, on occasion, finish us off after quick beats) once Crystalline resolves, and if Hooks saves it's counters to force it through or can cast it turn 2 on the play, before thresh can really start to cantrip then it usually will resolve. MM, on the otherhand, can cut us off from half of our muscle slivers, which are by far the most important cards in our deck against Thresh, and with Thresh's superior number of counters after cantripping and Hooks' only removal being STP, MM can almost always be protected. Because of all of this, I think that the Hooks matchup is not a positive one for UGR Thresh.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Postboard, I agree that both decks can utilize Counterbalance. I think it would be akward for either deck, considering Thresh has a larger number of 1cc spells and Slivers has a larger number of 2cc spells, but I agree that both can utilize it to good effect.

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Yeah, we don't really love CB in the SB, I was just showing that both decks can use almost the same form of combo hate, except that UGR Thresh doesn't have access to mage, the best combo hate of all.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

However, Thresh can bring in EE which is far more devastating against Slivers.

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Yes, EE hurts Hooks a lot, but Hooks can bring in needles and some of us even run them mainboard (such as myself) as well as any GY hate we have.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I think the combo matchup is actually better for Threshold of either splash because it doesn't need to commit as many creatures to the board early on to establish a good clock and can use it's mana instead to disrupt the opponent or dig for disruption.

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This is a valid point, and I agree, but I think that the post board combo matchup of Hooks is better than the post board matchup of UGR Thresh, although every single percentage we are talkin about here for all 3 decks is positive, so in the end it doesn't really matter.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Counterspell in Slivers vs combo is terrible, Counterspell in Thresh vs combo is good, for example.

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I dunno about "terrible", but it is better in Thresh because 1 beater can go the distance. Though with Hooks, I have, on many occasions, gone T1 Plated, T2 Muscle, T3 leave open mana for counterspell against combo. You are certainly correct, though, it is better in Thresh, I just disagree with the disparity of effectiveness that you believe between the 2 decks.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I think a major difference between both decks is that Thresh plays a much better control game due to the cantrip density. Slivers has to overcommit threats to be successful, Thresh can drop just 1 or 2 guys. For this reason, Slivers has an awful control matchup while Thresh has a solid control matchup. I've never won a matchup against Landstill with Slivers while I have won matchups against Landstill with Thresh (especially the red splash because the additional reach of burn helps alot).

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This is most certainly true, though MD needle in Hooks helps a bit. The only way Hooks can win is to drop Crystalline and Muscle and beat for 5 a turn while accumulating counters and threats to redeploy once your 2 guys get wiped. Once that eventually happens, drop 2 more guys and continue going to town like that, just takin little bits of life at a time. The other difference between both decks is that Hooks has a very positive Gobos matchup while Thresh does not. Now, I'm not sure of how much better UGR Thresh's matchup is than UGW Thresh (I'm guessing it's about 50/50 preboard but I could be wrong), but either way Hooks has a decently higher match % against one of the best, if not the best deck in the format.

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Originally Posted by Mad Zur

You seem to be assuming one deck can adapt and the other deck can't. If for some reason it's correct to board 8 cards for combo in Slivers, there's no reason ***** couldn't do the same.

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This is very true, but, as I stated before, UGR Thresh doesn't have access to MM, the best anti combo thing around.

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Originally Posted by Mad Zur

(Also, wasn't the consensus in the MeatHooks thread that the deck can't effectively support Counterbalance?)

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Yes, our testing has shown that CB is not effective in Hooks, but I guess this brings up the question of whether MM and Stifle are better than CB against combo? I believe MM and Stifle are superior.

Kronicler

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Originally Posted by Kronicler

This is very true, but, as I stated before, UGR Thresh doesn't have access to MM, the best anti combo thing around.

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Not true. I've played Counterbalance in UGw Hatfield Gro forever now, and have never seemed to look back at playing with Meddling Mage.

I play Counterbalance over mage because

1. Even though it's slow, in a build with 10 1cc cantrips, and 3 Tops, you've assembled Counterbalance by turn 3 consistently. I doubt combo will go off early if they dont have enough protection.

2. It's good against other decks as well, like the aggro control mirror. And even without MM, flipping over a random card still stops them from comboing, from 0cc artifacts, 1cc Rituals, and 2cc Tutors. This deck's mana curve is awesome.

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Yes, our testing has shown that CB is not effective in Hooks, but I guess this brings up the question of whether MM and Stifle are better than CB against combo? I believe MM and Stifle are superior.

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Because you're lacking the cards to find it quickly and efficiently. MM and Stifles are better in that deck becuase it can work without functioning together. Counterbalances doesnt always need top, but it's more consistent with what you want counter'd with top.

Stifles are good against decks like Goblins too. Mage is good against Thresh by stopping Swords and dominating the board.

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Originally Posted by Kronicler

This is very true, but, as I stated before, UGR Thresh doesn't have access to MM, the best anti combo thing around.

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That's arguable, and depends somewhat on the combo deck. Even if Mage is the best, it isn't usually by such a wide margin that a deck with Mage is better than a deck that can more easily find and protect whatever disruption it does have in that slot.

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Yes, our testing has shown that CB is not effective in Hooks, but I guess this brings up the question of whether MM and Stifle are better than CB against combo? I believe MM and Stifle are superior.

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Like I said, if that much combo hate is really warranted in one deck, it is probably warranted in the other. You're saying one deck is better than the other against combo because it's running twice as much hate. Both decks can and often do run Stifle and many other anti-combo options.

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Originally Posted by noobslayer

I think you should only run basic mountain if you are running eighteen lands. Also, it should be an even split on the blue fetches; there's no reason not to do so.

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This is my big complaint with Red Thresh over White Thresh, the fact that you cannot run fetchable basics. Adding vulnerability to LD and color screw, however small, is not something I like, especially when lands are tight.

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I'd also try Portent over Serum Visions in that list.

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I would drop the 3 Stifles MD all together, change them to Serum Visions, and run 4 Portent. Portent is an extremely flexible card that can provide some control over your next 3 draws (or stop your opponent from ripping off some bombs from their topdeck.) It is a slowtrip, so it tends to be better early game and doesn't work nearly as well with Dryad as Serum Visions (part of the reason I am not a big fan of Dryad), but it the fact it can be turned against your opponent to keep them from stabilizing is amazing.

Also, the fact only 8 counter are run in favor of Stifles and a heavier creature base seems excessive to me now that Flash is gone. Stifle was strictly worse than Counterspell against Trinisphere (one stops it, the other does nothing), while Counterspell tends to be more useful, since doing a Chalice for 2 before a Chalice for 1 is an incredibly poor move in general and especially against Thresh.

On a less related note: I prefer Tops over Needles, because the former is never dead, and often quite good with a cantripping engine, while the latter is very good in some matchups, "meh" is others, and practically dead in others still.

Also, I prefer Predict over Mental Note: Predict let's you use Portent to mill away an opponent's nasty card or draw 2 off chaff, avoids a Chalice at 1, and is the only card in Thresh that can provide actual card advantage. In return you get a slightly slower card that gives +1 less to Threshold, but that seems to be less relevant with builds that run Goyf.

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Originally Posted by Cait_Sith

This is my big complaint with Red Thresh over White Thresh, the fact that you cannot run fetchable basics. Adding vulnerability to LD and color screw, however small, is not something I like, especially when lands are tight.

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Wooded Foothills much? The mana base is fine as it is. You can run anywhere between 7 and 9 fetches at your leisure (I'm sold on 7 or 8 personally). I don't usually have any issues unless say I'm against a deck that nails upwards to three wastelands in a single game. Stifle anyone?

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I would drop the 3 Stifles MD all together, change them to Serum Visions, and run 4 Portent. Portent is an extremely flexible card that can provide some control over your next 3 draws (or stop your opponent from ripping off some bombs from their top deck.) It is a slow trip, so it tends to be better early game and doesn't work nearly as well with Dryad as Serum Visions (part of the reason I am not a big fan of Dryad), but it the fact it can be turned against your opponent to keep them from stabilizing is amazing.

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You aren't saying anything we don't already know. I don't want to sound rude, but we can read the cards we play with. Also, this deck has recently gone off into two directions. The control build, and the aggro-tempo build (ala Paul Nicolo's Top 8 Build at GP Columbus). You can't make suggestions to one build hoping it will play like the other build.

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Also, the fact only 8 counter are run in favor of Stifles and a heavier creature base seems excessive to me now that Flash is gone. Stifle was strictly worse than Counterspell against Trinisphere (one stops it, the other does nothing), while Counterspell tends to be more useful, since doing a Chalice for 2 before a Chalice for 1 is an incredibly poor move in general and especially against Thresh.

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Once again, there are two builds. The tempo build does not want to leave two blue mana open every turn when it could be laying threats, dealing with other threats on the board, or swinging the turns with stifle. For this reason I've taken to main decking Engineered Explosives over Pithing Needle, and may even go up to two of them. I don't believe the heavy creature base is excessive in the tempo build. Not at all. Pressure wins games.

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On a less related note: I prefer Tops over Needles, because the former is never dead, and often quite good with a cantripping engine, while the latter is very good in some matchups, "meh" is others, and practically dead in others still.

Also, I prefer Predict over Mental Note: Predict let's you use Portent to mill away an opponent's nasty card or draw 2 off chaff, avoids a Chalice at 1, and is the only card in Thresh that can provide actual card advantage. In return you get a slightly slower card that gives +1 less to Threshold, but that seems to be less relevant with builds that run Goyf.

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All stuff we know. We could have avoided a fair bit of filler with you saying you prefer the control build more, and then posting your list with a few comments on choices and numbers. On that note, what is your list?

Well I'm certainly happy that there is some conversation about running Goyf in UGR thresh now. I waited patiently for Goyfs to become legal so that I could slip them in. They simply make the deck more aggressive, just the way I like it. In some light testing vs Vial Gobs, swinging on turn 3 with a 5/6 Goyf, w/o threshold, made me smile ear to ear. After that, answering the question of whether or not to get a playset of foil Goyfs was made quite clear. I'm in love with a Lhurgoyf.

I still have not decided which way to run the critter/cantrip package. Clearly in this case one effects the other. Hopefully I'll be able to sneak up to RIW for some testing.

Here's what I'm looking at

Option 1:
Critters:
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf
4 Dryad
Cantrips:
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Slieght of Hand

Option 2:
Critters:
4 Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Goyf
Cantrips:
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions


The cantrip package in option one is meant to maximize the potential for big Goyfs and Dryads while losing some of the potential for hitting threshold quickly. Thankfully Mongoose is still a decent one drop w/o threshold.

Option 2 feels more agressive to me. While it gives up the potential fat body of Dryad, it can hit threshold more quickly while simultaneously retaining the mana stabilizing ability in Werebear.

I want to play the deck as aggressively as possible so I'll prolly run option 2 first. The only thing that makes me think twice about this is my long lasting love affair with the Green Lady. That said, I have toyed with the idea of running a couple Dryads in addition to my option 2 critters.

I don't know if this would pique anyone's interest, but the creature base I was running was 4 Mongoose, 4 Goyf, and 3 Trygon Predator.

Trygon Predator just answers so much random stuff that I got sold on it pretty darn quick. It also has some synergy with Goyf, since it puts artifacts and/or enchantments into the opponent's yard (well, at least those that slipped through countermagic).

Of course, it helped that I was running 8 Burn spells and 2 Scepters to make up for the loss of muscle.

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Originally Posted by umbowta

Well I'm certainly happy that there is some conversation about running Goyf in UGR thresh now. I waited patiently for Goyfs to become legal so that I could slip them in. They simply make the deck more aggressive, just the way I like it. In some light testing vs Vial Gobs, swinging on turn 3 with a 5/6 Goyf, w/o threshold, made me smile ear to ear. After that, answering the question of whether or not to get a playset of foil Goyfs was made quite clear. I'm in love with a Lhurgoyf.

I still have not decided which way to run the critter/cantrip package. Clearly in this case one effects the other. Hopefully I'll be able to sneak up to RIW for some testing.

Here's what I'm looking at

Option 1:
Critters:
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf
4 Dryad
Cantrips:
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Slieght of Hand

Option 2:
Critters:
4 Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Goyf
Cantrips:
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions


The cantrip package in option one is meant to maximize the potential for big Goyfs and Dryads while losing some of the potential for hitting threshold quickly. Thankfully Mongoose is still a decent one drop w/o threshold.

Option 2 feels more agressive to me. While it gives up the potential fat body of Dryad, it can hit threshold more quickly while simultaneously retaining the mana stabilizing ability in Werebear.

I want to play the deck as aggressively as possible so I'll prolly run option 2 first. The only thing that makes me think twice about this is my long lasting love affair with the Green Lady. That said, I have toyed with the idea of running a couple Dryads in addition to my option 2 critters.

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In option 1, swap the Sleights with Portents.

Portent is definitley superior to Sleight of Hand since it digs more cards, finding solutions, Burn or lands if you are on the play with a 1-land-hand.

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Originally Posted by Cait_Sith

This is my big complaint with Red Thresh over White Thresh, the fact that you cannot run fetchable basics.

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I'm sure I'm misinterpreting your comment (or else I suggest more reading, more playtesting and less posting ).

Island <=== Flooded Strand, Polluted Delta
Forest <=== Wooded Foothills
Mountain <=== Wooded Foothills

If you are scared of LD, you can (as in the white splash) run 18 lands with
7-8 fetchlands, 6 duals and 4-5 basic lands. The situation is analogous for both splashes. As for the manabase in Liek's list, he explained his choices in his report (see TMD) or earlier in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Cait_Sith

I prefer Tops over Needles, because the former is never dead, and often quite good with a cantripping engine, while the latter is very good in some matchups, "meh" is others, and practically dead in others still.

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If your metagame is such that Needle is almost useless most of the time, it's clear that you should cut it; in which case I'd ask: What is your metagame ?
Needles are VERY useful vs. Vial, Jitte, Pernicious Deed, Crypt, sometimes Wasteland or Port, etc., and you'll probably need them if you cut the Stifles.

@Cait_Sith: To be honest, I'm not the best threshold player in the world but I consider myself to be competent with the deck and it seems from my point of view that most of your arguments are based on theoretical reasonings which ignore key aspects (see above). It seems as if you haven't played much with the deck. I may be wrong and in no way do I want to attack or offend you, but if I'm right I'd suggest more playtesting.

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Originally Posted by umbowta

Option 2:

Critters:
4 Mongoose
4 Werebear
4 Goyf

Cantrips:
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Note
4 Serum Visions

Option 2 feels more agressive to me. While it gives up the potential fat body of Dryad, it can hit threshold more quickly while simultaneously retaining the mana stabilizing ability in Werebear. I want to play the deck as aggressively as possible so I'll prolly run option 2 first.

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The only thing I don't like with this option is that its more dependent on threshold than the Tharmogoyf-Dryad-Mongoose trio. I guess it all depends on which is more important in your meta:

1) the ability to tap for G (e.g. vs. Stax) ;
2) the resilience to graveyard hate (e.g. vs. Grunt, Leyline, etc.).

Adan, while Portent digs deeper, Sleight of Hand increases the chance of being able to string cantrips and/or burn together to put counters on Dryads. With 2 immediately relevant cards in hand (Dryad/cantrip x) then cantrip x being either Brainstorm,Sleight, or Serum Visions is better than Portent in any case that I can think of. Do you have an example or two that might change my thinking?

I can already conceed to your point about working with a one land hand on the play, where I might rather Portent than Sleight. Getting into a mid/late game situation when I need to grow a Dryad is where I feel Sleight makes up for its early, minimal deficiencies.

aTn, my second option is definitely more grave reliant, thus the inclusion of 4 Mental Note. With that setup I would also be sticking to 4 Stifle in the main, which would obviously help protect the yard except in the Leyline case. However, flash is banned and I expect that the number of leylines around will diminish significantly.

I'd less concerned about combo growing your dryads, than actually having reasonable card quality.

I wonder if anyone gave Sea Drake a try in the deck?
I was tinkering with this list lately and had some good results with it:

// Lands
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
1 Island

// Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Sea Drake

// Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
3 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Fire/Ice
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Counterbalance
2 Predict
2 Serum Visions

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Counterbalance
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 Spell Snare (maybe something else)
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Trinket Mage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt

Sea Drake is a solid beater with evasion, fullfilling the role of Enforcer or Fledgling Dragon while having lower CC und perfectly fits the mana curve.
In addition to that, its a card in the 3CC slot for Counterbalance synergies and surpasses Chalice or opposing CBs.
Also bouncing lands has some positive side effects in the deck sometimes.

I prefer 2 CB + 2 Tops main, with an option on the Trinket Mage tutor box in the sideboard for a more "controlish" play.

I like Predict as a 2 of, because I hate drawing into multiples early on, but the option to cantrip for CA is available in longer games.

Sea Drake is a swell card, but generally not a good idea to drop until turn 4-5, unless you're playing Faerie Stompy and can power it out without the drawback. the allure of Goyf and Dryad are that they can be dropped early, and get big early, without bounding lands to your hand, (which goes against the idea of your deck...light on land, big on removal and threats)

From my experience, the problem with Dryad is not the lack of power, but a lack of evasion in the deck (and CC3 if you consider Counterbalance), which is sometimes essential (eg in stalemates) to win me games.


I can's see how a turn 3 4/3 flyer should be a loss of tempo.

Bouncing lands has never been a problem for me, as the Deck operates perfectly on 2 lands.

Cut Fire // Ice from the deck for another Sea Drake, and 2 Pithing Needles.

In the SB, cut the Trinket Mages, Needle, Spell Snares, and EE for 2 Ancient Grudge, and 1 more Pyroclasm, 3 Winter Orb, 1 Jedit.... it's tech.

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Originally Posted by Midian

From my experience, the problem with Dryad is not the lack of power, but a lack of evasion in the deck (and CC3 if you consider Counterbalance), which is sometimes essential (eg in stalemates) to win me games.


I can's see how a turn 3 4/3 flyer should be a loss of tempo.

Bouncing lands has never been a problem for me, as the Deck operates perfectly on 2 lands.

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It really doesn't though. Missing a land drop anywhere up till turn 4 is generally not good in my opinion. Granted you aren't really missing any, but you could be cantripping/drawing into removal while your drake bounces lands to your hand. Truth be told, I would much, much rather play Fledgling Dragon than Sea Drake. For only 1 more mana, we get a 5/5 flyer with firebreathing, which is much more than a 4/3 drake.