Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Muradin
So actually I am really attracted to this deck as I like playing combo in general and there is a lot of discussion with innovations in this thread. So before building it I'd like to have a "stable list" to test with, so that I can make sure I am able to pilot the deck. Is the version with Senseis Divining Top and Doomsday the general accepted one or is this just something very cool you are trying out?
I'm playing it. I'd recommend that you do, but I won't show up at your house with a weapon and command that you do too.
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(Why) is Death Dish good in this deck?
Opponents have a nasty habit of RFGing things that we don't want them to. As tricksy of an animal as the opponent is, Death Wish is our super trick for beating them. Interestingly enough, Death Wish can also find stuff like Extirpate, Abeyance, Krosan Grip, Wipe Away, and Serenity g1 when you might need it.
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When do I board Extirpate in?(Except against Ichorid for example)
Except against the obvious graveyard-based combo like Ichorid, it's really good against countermagic and chant effects. This means you'll be boarding them in about every non-aggro matchup.
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What is the Doomsday pile winning against graveyard hate?
There are several. My favorite is designed for use as a target for Infernal Tutor (with a Sensei's Divining Top and at least BBB after Doomsday for a total of BBBBBB after paying for your hellbent Infernal Tutor):
Cruel Bargain
Lotus Petal
LED
LED
Tendrils
You need at least 4 life before you cast Doomsday to pull this off. If you have at least 8 life, and an extra mana (so 1BBB instead of BBB) you may substitute Death Wish for Tendrils in the pile and find an RFG'd Tendrils of Agony. This also adds more storm. If your LEDs gone, you can use Dark Rituals in their place. If you have 2BBB available after casting Doomsday, you can substitute a Sensei's Divining Top for an LED and generate a couple extra storm by cycling Sensei's Divining Tops a few times.
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Why are 2 Doomsday needed?
They're not, but I like the extra one. With two copies, you can actually put Doomsday in your Doomsday pile to generate extra storm if you set it up correctly. This lets you cast Doomsday again generating an extra 5 storm without using the graveyard.
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Until now I didn't like Cabal Ritual very much in the newer builds as I often couldn't get 7 cards in my graveyard by the time I tried to go of, am I just playing it wrong?
Probably. I never have an issue with Threshold. Other people claim to (have problems) as well, so it could be that I am just incredibly lucky. I have no idea what is going on, but I can say that I personally do not have problems with Threshold.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emidln
No, Doomsday is good without hate. It's an instant win if you can cast it, have top, and then have 3 black left. You just flat out win the game. It's really easy to setup against aggro, which is why I mentioned it.
Can you explain this kill? I'm guessing you:
1. play Doomsday
top into Contract/Bargain
2. play Contract/Bargain, drawing top, petal, LED, LED
3. play petal. break it to
4. play Top
5 & 6 play LEDs
break them for six black, top into Tendrils
7. play Tendrils
Where's the other three storm coming from? Are you assuming some sort of rituals and casting of Top prior to Doomsday?
Also, can you explain your 'favorite kill with Infernal Tutor'? I'm guessing you IT revealing a Ritual for a second Ritual, then play both Rituals to get to BBB BBB and three storm and proceed from the Doomsday step above. But that means you (a) had 1BBB without using the Ritual you reveal to IT, or (b) play the IT turn two and on turn three find one extra storm somewhere...so I'm not really sure what's going on.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MattH
Can you explain this kill? I'm guessing you:
1. play Doomsday
top into Contract/Bargain
2. play Contract/Bargain, drawing top, petal, LED, LED
3. play petal. break it to
4. play Top
5 & 6 play LEDs
break them for six black, top into Tendrils
7. play Tendrils
Where's the other three storm coming from? Are you assuming some sort of rituals and casting of Top prior to Doomsday?
Also, can you explain the kill "with Infernal Tutor"? I'm guessing you IT revealing a Ritual for a second Ritual, then play both Rituals to get to BBB BBB and three storm and proceed from the Doomsday step above.
As BBB is nearly impossible to get from the manabase, I'm assuming you play some other spells. Usually those spells are a combination of Mystical Tutor, LED, Chant, and Ritual, although there any way that lets you have a top on table and a total of six black is fine. The way to do it with Infernal Tutor is pretty similar to the IGG really. You combo normally playing rituals into an Infernal Tutor with hellbent. Instead of needing at least 5 mana to win the game, Doomsday requires 6, but has the advantages of not being vulnerable to Leyline, Crypt, etc and generating more storm. So with BBBBBB in your pool you find Doomsday, and then play from above.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
I'm confused as to how putting Doomsday in a Doomsday pile is going to add 5 storm without using the graveyard. Presuming that you have to cast the other 4 cards in your pile, can't the opponent just Crypt the spells that you have cast? You no longer have a 60-card library to make DD piles, just your hand (which may or may not be 0 cards, depending on LEDs)
That being said, the graveyard-independent kill of a single DD is sick. I used to play old IGG, and Leyline was actually extremely annoying. Also, I have one more question: why Serenity instead of Hurkyl's Recall? Just speaking from the point of view of Vintage Long, against Stax all you would do was wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, EOT Hurkyl's, win. Hurkyl's is also tutorable via Mystical.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
someone_unimportant
I'm confused as to how putting Doomsday in a Doomsday pile is going to add 5 storm without using the graveyard. Presuming that you have to cast the other 4 cards in your pile, can't the opponent just Crypt the spells that you have cast? You no longer have a 60-card library to make DD piles, just your hand (which may or may not be 0 cards, depending on LEDs)
That being said, the graveyard-independent kill of a single DD is sick. I used to play old IGG, and Leyline was actually extremely annoying. Also, I have one more question: why Serenity instead of Hurkyl's Recall? Just speaking from the point of view of Vintage Long, against Stax all you would do was wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, EOT Hurkyl's, win. Hurkyl's is also tutorable via Mystical.
I'm not sure either one is better. I just like the permanent solution that Serenity offers.
I also don't understand the Double Doomsday thing, but that's because I've never needed to use it. Normally one Doomsday generates enough storm, if you've played a few accelerants and a protection spell, to end the game. I assume it's a fairly complex and situational kill.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
someone_unimportant
Also, I have one more question: why Serenity instead of Hurkyl's Recall? Just speaking from the point of view of Vintage Long, against Stax all you would do was wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, EOT Hurkyl's, win. Hurkyl's is also tutorable via Mystical.
Legacy Stax is aggressive. You can't afford to stand behind their own artifacts while drawing whatever you want (remember your setup will be locked under Chalice or Trinisphere), since there will be some factories, magi and angels beating you ass in the meantime. If not winning the game in the next turn (which is the purpous of Recall), you can cast a Serenity to break the other side of the table in order to unlock your setup spells to win shortly after. Also, if you'd use a bounce spell, it would be Rebuild, not Hurkyl's Recall, since you'd be able to trample that Chalice @ 2. Rushing River already deals with that, anyway.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Stax really isn't that big of a challenge, honestly. Trinisphere is what you should be scared of. At the first sign of stax what you should do is be looking for wipe away, or if they get an extremely agressive hand, you should look for Death Wish for a Rushing River.
I really think you guys aren't playing this right, at least to some extent. Top is a great new development. I disagree with a choice of emidln's. This is leaving the Death Wish in the board. That seems rediculous to me. However, I play in a different metagame, and if he knows his well enough to do without it game one, props to him. I do think that double DD is a decent choice, as you can still pop LED in response to a IT and still get a Doomsday if it is in your hand (something I have repeatedly run into in the very short time I've tested this; might just be my bad luck, though). You still have Brainstorms to get it out of your hand, and Tops to keep from running into it. I think I just had bad luck. I'm still testing a singleton, but I love it. I'm thinking of dumping Ill-Gotten Gains completely. It's been COMPLETELY irrelevent for me.
Earlier posts I saw someone say something along the lines of them actually "having to use a Chant effect during my own turn". This is what I mean when I say you guys might not be playing it effectively. Chant effects were put in here almost soley for this purpose, and then testing showed that they worked like time walks on most occasions. Against stuff like stax and non-counter lists, it's very much a bonus. That's why they are easily maindecked. However, their main purpose is to succeed in an undisrupted kill-turn.
I also read that someone said that combo is supposed to win as fast as possible. This is the kind of thinking that makes you play sloppy. If you want balls-to-the-wall combo speed, go play SI. This, as mentioned previously throughout the thread, is basically thresh with a combo kill. It's not to combo off as soon as possible. It's playing mindgames with your opponent. Bait out counters and other chants. Control the relevent aspects of the board while sculpting your hand, and go off protected. It's just that easy. Sacrificing speed for consistancy is completely acceptable, especially if, as emidln has pointed out, you still consistantly combo off before any other list available, unless it's balls-to-the-wall combo, and in this aspect, as emidln has also pointed out, you act as the control aspect. Against SI, you run chants. You run Extirpate (good on draw-4s, etc.). You should win. If you don't, I suggest practicing more.
This list is the MOST evolving archetype in Legacy, and I even daresay all of magic. Go and look at IGGY POP lists from a year ago. They are drastically different. That was combo.
This is combo-control: The end of evolution. Eventually it's what will rule legacy.
Pce,
--DC
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
So what is your list right now? Seems like you've got a lot of expierence with it.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Until FT uses Force of Will it is not combo-control, the deck still needs to be fast enough to reduce the amount of disruption it has to face, or adding disruption, tutors and cantrips of its own is just a tremendous mana/tempo sink in an attempt to retain parody.
FT isn't evolving, it's being indecisive. People need to stop and decide what the deck should be aimed at doing and what it actually needs to do IRL,
4 Doomsday
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Lim Dul's Vault
1 Wipe Away
4 Brainstorm
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island
Is one direction I believe "FT" should consider, because if you're going to slow down a turn for Sensei's Divining Top, you may as well concentrate on winning via Doomsday on turn 3 and consider Infernal Tutor your auxillery "Oops, I win" threat.
I'm about 99% certain that Vault > Mystical, because Mystical conflicts with the rest of the 1 drops and being able to tutor thru' Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void at 1 has been critical in its worst match ups.
This "Threshold with Tendrils!" argument needs to stop, because it's bull shit. You can go that route against Landstill or BAD Threshold, but when this deck runs into Balance/Top Cephalid, Balance/Top Dreadnought, Faerie Stompy, AfFOWnity or any control or aggro-control player willing to dedicate MD/SB slots to permanent hate for the combo match up, you are going to be in for a world of hurt.
Don't get me wrong, I like FT, I want to see FT succeed, but stop circle jerking and start taking a realistic look at the deck's problems against competent control or aggro-control or even the rare aggro-control-combo players (aka your worst nightmare) that are prepared for the match up. You'll find that despite all of your disruption, bounce, tutors and cantrips that speed is still, and will always be, your most valuable asset.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
If the deck is going to focus on a turn 3 Doomsday kill, what would be the typical stack you would set up after resolving DD.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
FT isn't evolving, it's being indecisive. People need to stop and decide what the deck should be aimed at doing and what it actually needs to do IRL,
It's aimed at winning over any kind of hate while maintaining the same style of play. That's the idea of every deck, actually, and this one is doing quite well at it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
4 Lim Dul's Vault
0 Mystical Tutor
I'd not run those many Vaults, since they are slow. You have only 15 lands, and that probably slows you down too much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
4 Doomsday
This deck stopped using 4 Ill-Gotten Gains a long time ago. Why the hell would you want to go back there, just replacing it with another gimme-more-storm card?
Also, the best way to achieve mana for the kill is by accelerating with LED in response to a draw or a tutor. You can't do that if that card is in your hand. I'd say you have limitations here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
0 Ponder
This is just wrong... Why do you think the deck is consistent as hell? Because it plays with the library. Do I need to say the advantages of Ponder and the synergy it has with some cards in the deck?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BreathWeapon
You'll find that despite all of your disruption, bounce, tutors and cantrips that speed is still, and will always be, your most valuable asset.
Gotta disagree here. I mean... I totally disagree with this. You sound like me when I first picked Iggy Pop and didn't like the (good) changes that were turning the deck into Grim Iggy (which would finally lead to a Grim Tutorless deck called Fetchland Tendrils).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
arsenalpow
If the deck is going to focus on a turn 3 Doomsday kill, what would be the typical stack you would set up after resolving DD.
This has been posted over and over, but anyway... This is the most common pile, requiring 4 life before it all and BBB after casting Doomsday and a top on the table:
Draw4
Petal
LED
LED
Tendrils
Tap Top for Draw4, empty your pool by casting it, draw all but Tendrils. Petal, Top, LED, LED, break them both, tap Top, cast Tendrils. With a single additional mana, you can switch Tendrils for Death Wish for another storm, while requiring a bit more life, since you will be taking half hit three times.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Hi, I have some questions about the sideboard and the boarding plans.
Here is my List:
// Lands
2 [PT] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [b] Underground Sea
1 [A] Tundra
1 [ST] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [u] Scrubland
1 [MM] Swamp
// Creatures
3 [FUT] Street Wraith
// Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Ponder
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [JU] Death Wish
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 3 [WL] Abeyance/ Duress
SB: 4 [WL] Serenity
It's the standard list, just replaced a wraith for the 4th ponder.
Sideboard:
Disrupt vs discard?
Or Duress?
What is the boarding plan vs....?:
Ubw Landstill:
(They will board in: Extirpate and mage)
I suggest:
-3 Street Wraith
-1 ???
for
+4 Dark Confidant
What is with Duress/abeyance or echoing truth?
Ug/r *****:
-3 Street wraith
+3 Duress
Ugw *****
-3 Street wraith
+1 echoing truth
+...? (Confi)
Random chalice deck
-3 street wraith
-1 mystical
+4 Serenity
What's with Dragonstompy and Staxx and vial gobbos?
thx for the help.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dark_Cynic87
Stax really isn't that big of a challenge, honestly. Trinisphere is what you should be scared of. At the first sign of stax what you should do is be looking for wipe away, or if they get an extremely agressive hand, you should look for Death Wish for a Rushing River.
Being a Stax player, I must say I love the Fetchland Tendrils match-up. :cool:
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
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Originally Posted by
Skeggi
Being a Stax player, I must say I love the Fetchland Tendrils match-up. :cool:
We love the Stax matchup too. I was a Stax designer and can verify that for stax to even have a remote chance they need EE/ORing, fast 3sphere+LD, or a quick Chalice 1/2/3 (all 3 are required to not get blown out by Serenity or Rushing River and the timetable is by turn 3-4). Postboard, their only hope if they don't have the nuts Trini + LD (turn 2 Smokey or turn 2/3 Geddon) on the play for the opening three turns is FT having abysmal draws because Serenity, Rushing River, or ETruth are coming on turn 3. When Stax is on the draw, it fears turn 1 confidant (from the older 4 Petal builds) or turn 1 top (from the newer 17 land builds). Either of these probably means game over.
I think I posted a sideboarding guide for a SW + Petal list somewhere on the storm boards. Against Stax, you bring in Serenity, Rushing River, ETruth, and Dark Confidant. Against Dragon Stompy, you want Serenity, Rushign River, and ETruth. Against Landstill, you want Extirpate, Abeyance, Massacre, Death Wish, and Sudden Death/Wipe Away. Against UG/UGb Thresh you want Abeyance, Confidant, (Wipe Away if they have CB, Death Wish if it's UGb) and Extirpate. Against UGw/UGr Thresh you want Abeyance(, Wipe Away if they have CB,) and Extirpate.
Against discard, disrupt isn't horrible, but Confidant is just better. Duress is terrible (please don't play it).
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emidln
We love the Stax matchup too. I was a Stax designer and can verify that for stax to even have a remote chance they need EE/ORing, fast 3sphere+LD, or a quick Chalice 1/2/3 (all 3 are required to not get blown out by Serenity or Rushing River and the timetable is by turn 3-4). Postboard, their only hope if they don't have the nuts Trini + LD (turn 2 Smokey or turn 2/3 Geddon) on the play for the opening three turns is FT having abysmal draws because Serenity, Rushing River, or ETruth are coming on turn 3. When Stax is on the draw, it fears turn 1 confidant (from the older 4 Petal builds) or turn 1 top (from the newer 17 land builds). Either of these probably means game over.
You always have your singleton Rushing River/Wipe Away/Echoing Truth against EVERYTHING your opponent plays, I see.
1 card against approx. 20 that can hurt you. That's still 19 chances to beat you. Chalice 1 hurts you teh most since it shuts of Dark Ritual (the most efficient earlygame manaaccel) and like 100 other spells like SDT, Ponder, Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor... actually everything that generates cardquality to find that 1 Rushing River.
Postboard Suppression Field can probably annoy you as well since you are relying on SDT and Fetchland a lot.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adan
You always have your singleton Rushing River/Wipe Away/Echoing Truth against EVERYTHING your opponent plays, I see.
1 card against approx. 20 that can hurt you. That's still 19 chances to beat you. Chalice 1 hurts you teh most since it shuts of Dark Ritual (the most efficient earlygame manaaccel) and like 100 other spells like SDT, Ponder, Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor... actually everything that generates cardquality to find that 1 Rushing River.
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Originally Posted by FT Sideboard
4 Serenity
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth
In closing, yes, I always do have it. When I don't, I mulligan.
Quote:
Postboard Suppression Field can probably annoy you as well since you are relying on SDT and Fetchland a lot.
This is best argument I've heard in favor of Stax in a long time. This would indeed be rough, requiring nonbasics or Serenity.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
It should be noted that lots of Stax sideboards have Seal of Cleansing in them, along with Suppression Field. What does FT do about Seal > Serenity, and Suppression Field > fetches/SDT (if your version if playing SDT)?
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adan
You always have your singleton Rushing River/Wipe Away/Echoing Truth against EVERYTHING your opponent plays, I see.
1 card against approx. 20 that can hurt you. That's still 19 chances to beat you. Chalice 1 hurts you teh most since it shuts of Dark Ritual (the most efficient earlygame manaaccel) and like 100 other spells like SDT, Ponder, Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor... actually everything that generates cardquality to find that 1 Rushing River.
4 Serenity + 1 Rushing River + 1 Echoing Truth. That's 6. If you are on the play, you also have the chance to Mystical for them, so add 4. If they don't get Chalice @ 1 turn 1, that's even more chance. And it keeps going. Also, there's the double draw from a Confidant coming on turn 1 or 2.
For lists that play it, Lim-Dul's Vault is golden against Stax. Nice Chalice @ 1. Seriously, there's nothing better than grabbing the last combo piece plus Serenity. You won't even need a draw in hand, since you will have to wait until next turn anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adan
Postboard Suppression Field can probably annoy you as well since you are relying on SDT and Fetchland a lot.
I've always had it sided in against me. With this new Top list, it's even more annoying, but you still have more than half of your lands as non-fetchlands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
It should be noted that lots of Stax sideboards have Seal of Cleansing in them, along with Suppression Field. What does FT do about Seal > Serenity, and Suppression Field > fetches/SDT (if your version if playing SDT)?
If they, on top of all this, add Smokestack, then the clock is ticking and the game is much likely in their favor. But it's a lot of cards for a deck that doesn't have search or draw cards: 2 mana land, W mana source, Chalice, Suppression Field, Seal, Smokestack. Considering the game has taken a while to get to this, you will have 2-3 mana to activate fetchlands and top, so they better have that Smokestack.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
Ok, at least, both of you are confessing that it can indeed get quite annoying for FT against Stax, but I will also give you that you can beat Stax of you know what to do from the beginning.
Re: [DTW] Fetchland Tendrils
you also have chances at winning through an early chalice without bouncing/destroying it.
Stax plays Chalice@1 and passes the turn. You go 2xLED, land, petal, IT -> GG.
I never found stax to be a bad matchup, but never tested against MD Suppression Field.
