In a Thresh*, loam, Ichorid heavy meta you can also run 3x Jotun Grunt MB.
I really like the idea of boarding in Meddling Mage for naming Krosan Grip, and thats if your opponent playing green always the right choice.
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In a Thresh*, loam, Ichorid heavy meta you can also run 3x Jotun Grunt MB.
I really like the idea of boarding in Meddling Mage for naming Krosan Grip, and thats if your opponent playing green always the right choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by raharu
I fail to see how goyf is railed by Krosan Grip. Also in his list of things that doesn't hit tombstalker he included shackles, which can steal a tombstalker about as often as it steals a goyf (only one more power). Not that that fact is entirely relevant, but I did notice it.
What I think you're missing is that the deck really needs the green splash, not just tarmogoyf. The white splash offers Oblivion ring to deal with pesky artifacts and enchantments, the green splash offers Kgrip, and the black splash with tombstalker offers... Nothing. Out of all the colors to splash into Dreadstill (assuming you're only splashing one color) green and white are the only ones to give you a consistently relevant finisher (read:Tarmogoyf) and Kgrip/Oring removal. Attempting to make a two-color splash deck that runs Tombstalker, 4 Factories, 3 Wastelands, and only 20 lands is heresy. It could work, but you can kiss all those lovely basic islands goodbye.
Another thing that's being overlooked is the aggro matchup. Tarmo helps tremendously against aggro, coming down on turn two to block all sorts of nasty creatures (read:Other Tarmogoyfs). This gives you plenty of time to set up Counterbalance/Top, or just to go find a Dreadnought. Tombstalker in these matchups will take at LEAST until turn 3 to hit the table. Thats assuming you tap out to cast him (using TWO duals), and manage to have 4 cards in your graveyard at that point (I'd assume Fetch, Fetch, Brainstorm, Force or some such nonsense). In reality the creature will land on the table most often on turn 4, where it will be hard pressed to slow advancing aggro hordes.
Given that black offers little in the way of artifact and enchantment removal, and their finisher takes multiple turns to enter play, I'll take my "less broken" tamogoyfs with their Kgrip backup anyday.
Black offers Dark Confidant, Thoughtseize and Sideboard Extirpates, so I guess the black splash is strong, too.
In a meta where the only constant factors are UWb CunningStill, Aggro Loam and some Dredge, which splash would you prefer, Red, Green, White or Black?
I'm unsold if Black or White is the better Splash as Red and Green don't offer that great Sideboardoptions against those decks.
This is my Black splashed List:
// Lands
3 [B] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [UNH] Island
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
4 [REW] Wasteland
// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
// Spells
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [NE] Daze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [SC] Stifle
1 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [GTW] Yixlid Jailer
SB: 3 [TE] Propaganda
It plays no removal at all, but instead brutal Draw power due Confidant AND Standstill, in addition to that, you have Thoughtseize as a powerful tool against everything that might hurt you.
My White splashed List
// Lands
2 [B] Tundra
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [REW] Wasteland
4 [UNH] Island
// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [ARE] Chill
That's basicly the list from the first side with changes for my metagame. Therefore I play no Spell Snares but Grunts in the Main. Those give me a chance against Dredge in G1 and make my Aggro Loam Matchup better.
In this metagame consisting of Aggro Loam, CunningStill and Dredge (and random crap that gets owned by a 12/12 Trampling Dreadnaught) - would you play Oblivion Ring over Swords? O-Ring would allow me to counter those pesky CunningWishes with Counterbalance (I know, I got Trinket Mage, too, but only 2 of them) and those allow me to counter all Critters from Aggro Loam - sounds good...
Which list would you prefer and why?
Thanks.
I would love an UWB list but its just not possible without kicking Factorys :/
You could play Confidant in place of Standstill and play black as a light splash only for Confidant & SB, but this belongs in the Dreaded-Fish Thread. :tongue:
Your black list needs some removal, i would play 3x Smother MB and board in Thoughtseize against hate âla Krosan Grip.
Your white list seems very solid, i've tested the same list [ -1xCB,+1xSword, other SB] and in the right meta it kicks ass.
In your [and my] meta i would go with the black list, but i have the same problem, all cards @ home, but to choose is really hard.
PLZ halp mtv TheSource.
Regarding Tombstalker (I missed that inexperienced players like JanValentino are still arguing that it's not a great card!!). I reiterate...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
FINALLY, Jotun Grunt is catching on. :)
How has it been for you?
The list seems very solid.
But isn't 4 Counterbalance overkill?
Why not play 2 Oblivion Ring or something else instead?
Jotun Grunt is great, it has to play the same role as Goyf in the greensplashed lists but instead of the obv. Goyfstall (which would happen if you have a goyf and your opponent has one) you just wait one to two rounds and his goyf will be ridicolous small (2/3, maybe he's still 3/4 but in this case that doesn't matter as Grunt is 4/4). The balances seem to work out ok for me till yet, due pitching one to an early Force doesn't hurt so much with a full Playset in the deck.
I could see myself cutting one Balance and one Trickbind for two O-Rings though - having Counterbalance Reach but still do not miss the awesomeness of StoP sounds pretty cool to me.
I've got to say Uwb wouldn't be bad, but Cutting Standstill for Dark Confidant is a terrible Idea. Standstill in addition to being an amazing draw engine is at least a time walk or sometimes more. If anything you would cut trinket mage for Dark Confidant. Also the one think you've all got to remember is that Tarmogoyf is almost always a 5/6 or 6/7 in this deck, the only advantage Tombstalker has is it dodges CB and Flys. And although those are big perks, BB is kinda rough for the mana cost. Anyways if I were to play Uwb I would play something like this:
Lands:20
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
3 Island
Creatures:8
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
Noncreature Spells:32
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Trickbind
Sideboard:15
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Thoughtseize
3 Meddling Mage
2 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Extirpate
Joon- You need some sort of out against CoTV dropped first turn, it's quite a common play in Legacy at least throw some O-rings or EEs in your main. Also splashing for three colors make me cringe at your mana bases. Also, why no Spell Snares? It's easily one of the strongest counterspells in the format.
I really think he's going to prove sub-par compared to Standstill. He's much more easily disrupted and the fact that he beats for two is outclassed by the fact that every other creature in the format kills him. Plus, doesn't the thought of ripping force with him scare you in the least bit? I mean, sure you run tops, but with 4 confidant main and only 2 tops main, you are going to run into the old topdeck force, lava axe myself or the topdeck Obilivion ring, Bolt myself plays. I just feel kinda antsy about playing confidant in a deck where you run forces :/ . And it's not like you NEED the draw power to stay competitive, the non-confidant builds do just great without him.Quote:
Dark Confidant
On a side note, what do you guys find yourself Oblivion ringing the most often? I'm just wondering as it seems to me my most often ringed targets are artifacts and enchantments. All the other permanents are either run over by the dreadnought or are to insignificant to care about. I'm only asking because if all I ever Oring are artifacts and enchantments, I'd rather have Grip main, what with Split second and all. But maybe you guys have different targets.
Can you tell I really love the green version yet? :laugh:
I've never really liked Confidant since we have Standstill but I guess it would make your draw engine retarded. Yeah the whole Force rip off top with him seems horrid but it's the price you have to pay if you want to run Bob.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda
You're absolutely correct on this O-ring usually hits Artifacts like Moat, Humility, Chalice, things that give Dreadstill problems. And yeah K-Grip for the most part hits all the same targets your O-Ring would except it gives the oponent no chance to Counterbalance it really so I actually think it's more solid. Plus it's a house in the mirror.Quote:
On a side note, what do you guys find yourself Oblivion ringing the most often? I'm just wondering as it seems to me my most often ringed targets are artifacts and enchantments. All the other permanents are either run over by the dreadnought or are to insignificant to care about. I'm only asking because if all I ever Oring are artifacts and enchantments, I'd rather have Grip main, what with Split second and all. But maybe you guys have different targets.
Can you tell I really love the green version yet? :laugh:
This is my actual list:
// Lands
2 [B] Tundra
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [REW] Wasteland
4 [UNH] Island
// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OD] Standstill
1 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [BOK] Threads of Disloyalty
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [ARE] Chill
It has O-Rings AND Swords, so a good Removalpackage.
I run no Spell Snares as my Meta is full of Dredge and Aggro Loam, so I guess that Grunt main deserves the slots over Spell Snare. If I would find some space I would play them, no discussion.
Why even bother with the Grunts if your meta is full of Dredge and Aggro Loam. You'd probally just be better off running 3-4 Trinket Mages and 1x Crypt in the mainboard. Being able to tutor for Crypt Preboard against those decks hurt them really badly moreso then Jotun Grunt. Also free up a Crypt in your board.
Triggered abilities, such as Counterbalance and Standstill, still trigger with split second, correct? Was this intended to refer to Top's activated ability?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roodmistah
I think they mean that the person with counter-top will have to be lucky to blindly flip a 3cc card. Unless the counter-top player is smart and keeps a 3cc card on top all the time, at which point neither grip or ring can save you.Quote:
Originally Posted by risethehandsofreason
Yeah, Oring isn't really the best way to deal with CB, sorcery speed and all. But it's an answer to all the other things this deck hates too, 3sphere, CotV, Humility, Goyf etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by THEchubbymuffin
Also, I don't think it would be that smart of them to keep the CB with 3cc on top at all times, then we resolve all of our spells and win. CB really shouldn't be a problem for this deck, especially the Green splash. Krosan Grip bangs on Counterbalance.
Well, Tarmo is really vulnerable to CB, and I think it'd be a wonderful idea to move away from having all the relevant threats in the deck shut off by CB (which, again, is something that every one in this thread seems to be entirely ignoring). I think that the lack of relevant options from the green splash is really what turns me off from it. Yes, KGrip and Tarmo are good, but that's not comparative to the sb options in black and white in addition to the strong cards that fit nicely in the MD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roodmistah
Well, threads still jacks the shit out of your 'Goyf, along with your PD, so I think you're missing the point. Also, KGrip doesn't touch Tarmogoyf, but neither does it harm TS.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda
ARE YOU RETARDED? A) you seriously think that Leyline of the Void, Extirpate, Thoughtseize, Dark Confidant, Engineered Plague, the only finisher that I've seen mentioned that doesn't die to the rest of the deck's inherent weaknesses, and all of the other randomly useful SB (and MD) tech that black has to offer isn't relevant?!!!?? And that the two(!) cards that green offers are more relevant when they have parallels in white and bw? And white somehow gives you a relevant finisher... And you think that I can't support UU and BB in the same manabase in a TWO COLOR DECK?!! Two colors. Seriously? Do you not know about Ubw landstill? What about 4c? Uhh... Wow, I presume that your bias is too acute to actually argue with at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda
Do NOT insult. Attack the ideas, not the person. Verbal warning issued.
-PR
So you're playing th Ug list in an agro-oriented metagame (the only place where real agro can survive)... Otay, that's an enormout mistake, as you should take the Ur list and rip holes in that metagame with PyroK and Firespout. Also, turn four isn't that late against agro if you're playing the deck right (i.e. stopping relevant threats, disrupting their manabase/ keeping a fair hold on the stack), so I don't know what to say to that portion of your argument. Also, Fetch Fetch BS Force in the yard on turn TWO isn't that unreasonable, much less by turn four. Also, the deck runs 10 lands that don't stay in play and >20(!) non-permanent spells, depending on the list, of course. So you're saying that, out of 10 cards at minimum (meaning no BS/ Digging in the first 4 turns), less then 4 of them are going to the yard. 10/2 = 5. Where are you deriving your points from? Seriously, I'd like to know, because it's apparent you aren't pulling them from facts or logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda
Have fun with your Tarmogoyfs and KGrips, I'll just be off over here drawing cards like a champ, crushing control and Agro-control, having game against Ichorid, stoping threats both reactively and proactively, have MD removal to stop your retarded 'Goyfs, swing over a gummed up board ftw, and prolly not loosing to the threshold player that runs both CB and Threads of Disloyalty in the MD that's going to rape your house, much less your couch. Enjoy yourself out there :tongue: =] :smile: ^_^Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda
Quite difficult for them to keep a 3cc card there all time, will they want to draw it?Quote:
Originally Posted by THEchubbymuffin
I still think the white splash is the way to go. It not only provides a great maindeck answer to a lot of hate (e.g. Chalice, Counterbalance) in Oblivion Ring, but it also opens up an anti-hate card in Meddling Mage, against Krosan Grip. Swords to Plowshares also buys a bit of time against quick starts.
I have been playtesting the deck with the 4 Enlightened Tutor, and have found it to be very powerful. There is some great synergy with Enlightened Tutor and counterbalance, also it is cheaper than trinket mage which I am finding to be on e of the weaker cards in the deck.
also the deck boasts 2 shackles which give the deck a powerful way to deal with opposing creatures.
I think I still need more testing but I am starting to like the deck more and more with every game.
Which actually requires them to have two 3cc spells in the top 3, or else you can just Grip it in response to a Top activation or during their draw step or whenever they try to move it so they don't draw it.Quote:
Originally Posted by THEchubbymuffin