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This is what I have been trying out, it needs work and I'm looking for some suggestions...
4 Painter's Servant
4 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
(12)
3 Fabricate
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Chrome Mox
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Mana Leak
1 Grindstone
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
(29)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Academy Ruins
3 Polluted Delta
(19)
I was trying to use Breakfast as a guide. Let me hear what everyone thinks!
Seems rather awful to me. You have no way to find your Grindstone, and without that, it's over. You can tutor for Trinket Mage, so why don't you remove a jaya ballard (which sucks, btw), add a trinket mage, then tune the mana base into:Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshine
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Volcanic Island
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
Even though the mana base's shaky, it will become far more consistent as you'll never win without the combo. Recruiter can now tutor both win conditions up, one directly, and one indirectly. Test and find out.
It's clear you didn't look very closely at that deck. It's first and foremost a Painter's Servant deck, not a Painter's Servant-Grindstone combo deck. The deck has eight copies of Painter via the Recruiters, which it resolves with the help of Blasts; once it's resolved, those same Blasts also protect it from removal, and together with the Volcanos and Jayas also become instant speed Vindicates for :r:. And, of course, if you also happen to draw Grindstone, you win the game right there. I don't know how good the deck is, but it's definitely an interesting direction to take it in.
I'm not sure if the full acceleration package of Tomb, City, Mox, and SSG are all worth using, however; and the Lightning Bolts look out of place. I'd try adding some sort of draw engine to the deck, so that you don't get simply overwhelmed despite the fact that you have lots of Vindicates, because even then you're still just making one-for-one trades. (Or I might try some Wastelands and/or Ports, if Blasting their manabase to pieces is the plan.)
I'm just answering on this part of your post:Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
No I perfectly understood what was written at the decklist. I know the main purpose of the deck, even though I stated it like I didn't. My bad. I did look very close at the deck, finding several flaws. Think about how many matchups where about 25% of the cards in the deck are dead in. This is the major flaw, and this is why you need a tutor of the win condition. Blue isn't only what you fear. What do you do against a Pernicious Deed? That, engineered explosives, grips game 2 & 3, etc. There's still many, many cards to be dealt with.
Another problem:
Painter sucks on its own - solution: Imperial Recruiter
Blasts suck on their own - solution: Imperial Recruiter (takes a long time to accomplish)
Grinstone sucks on its own - solution: None. Topdeck either combo piece or sit with a dead topdeck. Bad times.
A chance to quote myself:
I got to correct myself, as I didn't see all the points that you took. I just think that it's too "cool". The blasts might be good WITH servant, but what do you do against turn 1 thoughtseize? Almost any opponent will know what to aim for. The recruiter or the Servant itself. I think that it's very risky to play, and if I had the cards, I'd never participate with it at a tournament, no matter how good it is. 4 Grindstone doesn't do anything on their own. Jaya Ballard is too slow. Blasts are dead a large percentage of the time. How many decks in the DTB forum play with blue spells/blue permanents/islands? A lot, but what about all the other jank that also top8 fairly often? In my opinion, it's a sole meta-deck, and in the correct one consisting of almost only muc, thresh, landstill and dreadstill I could see the point of playing this deck. Across Europe, a lot of Aggro Loam is being played. In this matchup, your grindstone alone only helps them. Your blasts are dead, dead, dead, and Jaya will be slaughtered as soon as she enters play. And this deck plays with no stifles to negate gaea's blessings. That's a problem, too, as the Painter's decks now are rising, more people will most likely board in just one blessing.Quote:
You have no way to find your Grindstone, and without that, it's over.
Even though you'll be situated good with your blasts, you're still trading 1-for-1. What happens if the opponent has more answers than you? They do, especially after game 1. The deck has 8 blasts, 3 on sticks which blows, and 3 tempo-gainers against blue decks.
I think it's okay, but the addition of Trinket Mage along with i.e. some stifles and a more stable mana base would do, I think. I'm sorry if I flamed the deck, but I can't see the picture of playing that many conditional cards.
There has to exist a better possible build for Legacy, because I think that blasts are only good mainboarded in vintage. Maybe not even more after the restrictions. Time will tell, as it will with Legacy.
To say it short: Too nice combo not to build around, and too many interesting - like you say -, but weird builds. This is one of the better, but far from the best IMO.
I'm very tired right now, so I hope you get my points :smile:
Okay. Yeah, I agree with you that it seems like it could be fragile and inconsistent (even with 8 copies of Servant, you only have a 65% chance of drawing it in your opening seven), but it did make T8 and I have an unusual fetish for empirical data, so who knows.
Seems to me the list would be a lot better with a faster clock, to supplement the other wincon. It's like, sure, you can blast their goyf, but you can't really capitalize on it by killing them quickly afterwards.
Why not less Burn and Spellshaper, and more Dragon Stompy?
Absolutely. Gathan Raiders, RPD and maybe a 'Slogger could clearly help here. Also, that Active Volcano sucks even greater balls than the blasts, right? Destroying an Island is nowhere as good as countering a spell IMO. So in total, I'd try withQuote:
Originally Posted by Mental
-3 Jaya
-4 Lightning Bolt
-3 Active Volcano
and go with:
+4 Gathan Raiders
+3 RPD
+3 Arc-Slogger
But even though they're the best dudes in DS IMO, they aren't very playable as the list runs no seething song (and you could use a blast to back them up), and Recruier can't tutor them up, which can become necessary.
Therefore, some other awesome beefs could be:
Taurean Mauler
Guma
Pyre Charger (although no first strike makes it suck)
Vexing Shusher
Solemn Simulacrum
Slith Firewalker
And so on.
The UR Recruiter/Trinket version I tried was very consistant as far as getting the combo down (as early as turn 2) on an average of around turn 4/5, but it was open to disruption I felt. Without the faster clock as you all mentioned and relying soley on the mill, I just don't think it would have gotten there. Also the mana base felt shaky.
It's an interesting list no doubt. Looks damn strong if your meta consists entirely of blue decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by sunshine
Why doesn't it play a single Silent Arbiter against aggro though? Maybe a Grim Lavamancer or two as well.
I think a lot of people are looking at this imperial painter list the wrong way. Obviously I'm not going to claim that it can't be improved upon, but before you start making changes you need to understand what its plan is in the first place. Try a few test games before coming to any conclusions. Honestly, if I owned a set of imperial recruiters I would be playing a list very close to that - possibly trying to get another one or two moon effects in the MD.
How can we look at it 'the wrong way' ? What do you mean?Quote:
I think a lot of people are looking at this imperial painter list the wrong way.
Am I not seeing an invisible win condition in the deck, or is it to do one of the following:Quote:
to understand what its plan
Painter + Stone Combo= win.
Painter + Blasts= Vindicates= Disruption= not straight out win.
Blasts= Possible vindicates= Possible disruption= Far from straight out win.
Magus= Disruption, but still far from a straight out win.
I can test the deck a couple of times, but a deck as shaky as this doesn't seem good in theory to me.
You really need to topdeck a grindstone in order to win. Remember, you've far from won aainst a resolved countertop. Really far. In fact, you've just lost as they can counter a stone, 15 of your instants and a chrome mox, and that will happen often, just with blind flips. Once your blast resolves, they might already have played their win condition. Where's yours? Either, add more tutor effects and thus more speed and consistency, or play alternative, reliant win conditions so you can get more resillancy. Right now, without testing knowledge, I can't exactly tell, but my thoughts about this painter's stone variant are rather negative, and I wouldn't call that list strong. If you really had to buy Recruiters, I'd buy them to Aluren or something like that.
I'm thinking that something like this is the strongest way to do this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Willoe
-2 Active Volcano
-3 Jaya
-4 Lightning Bolt
+3 Sword of Fire and Ice
+2 Blood Moon
+4 Taurean Mauler
You can't play Gathan Raiders/RPD in the Mauler slot because you want to hold blasts in your hand instead of going hellbent. You can't play Arc-Slogger because it costs to much mana.
SoFI is really techy with Painter's Servant out.
I like 9 Blast effects, thus, one active volcano stays.
Postboard you want Pyroclasms for Meddling Mage, though, which is a main reason that I presume Bolt was in there anyways.
Edit: In retrospect, 16 creatures could be too few to support SoFI.
-1 Active Volcano
-1 Blast
+2 Solemn Simulacrum? I have no idea.
Have you guys even tested the list? Doesn't sound like it. 11 Blasts and then 3 on a stick with 8 ways to find Painter. It also protects Painter and the combo. Test it before you throw it out the window.
I haven't thrown it around much, true, but look at it. 14 blast effects, 3 that are ridiculously slow, has to be overkill. No way to find Grindstone makes the deck inconsistent as hell, especially if Blasts get shut down by, say, Counterbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
SoFI is really nice in this deck, especially with Servant out, since it gives him protection from everything and a clock, and it's a draw engine to find Grindstone.
Well, in that rare instance Counterbalance resolves against your Blast effects, you can draw, tutor, or play Jaya Ballard and she can destroy it herself. You're missing the whole point: The deck doesn't need Grindstone to win. It plays seriously like a red weenie deck - a very annoying one at that. You pack burn in Jaya and Lightning Bolts and you control tempo with Magus, Blasts, and Active Volcano.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
People also forget that Active Volcano functionally shuts down Daze. When your opponent drops an Island and passes the turn, you bounce it in response to them declaring the end of their second main phase and then force them to discard. Then on your turn two, you've got pretty much 3-4 mana available and sick tempo advantage. That's...not bad.
And, once again, if your opponent is not playing blue, then obviously Painter's Servant will resolve. In that instance, you should win the game by going aggro, destroying their permanents, or drawing a Grindstone. Not making the deck function primarily around Grindstone allows you to get around Needle and Blessing, too. At least, that's what I do with my sideboard.
I wouldn't call it "rare" - they drop turn 2 Balance, you Blast, they Daze.Quote:
Originally Posted by A Legend
But yeah, I see your point.
EDIT:
After some thinking, the only obvious thing that needs to go from this deck is Lightning Bolt. With Recruiter, you have 8 moon effects, 8 Servants, and 17 Blasts, 7 of which are on a stick. There's plenty of creatures in the deck (19, counting SSG), so I would just replace the Bolts with 4 SoFI, or a 3/1 SoFI SoLS split.
I've played my Imperial Painter deck in three tournaments (winning/splitting for first in each) and hundreds of games play-testing and here's what I've come to:
Lightning Bolts need to stay. They handle annoying things like Bob, Lackey, opposing Painter, early Goyfs, Pit-Dragons, and the sort. It also acts as a softener for beats. In the instance you don't need them, they're always fodder for Chrome Mox. I even wanted to cut it at first. But I've learned not to. And I won't.
The creature base is fine as it is. There's plenty of cheap damage that will sneak in until you win via creatures or Grindstone.
The Blast effects are so good, as they should be. Yesterday, I played against Ichorid in a crucial round 3 match. Game three, he dropped Pithing Needle a few turns before and I was at two life with a Painter's Servant out staring at close to 70 damage the next turn. I E.O.T Red Blast his Needle and hope to draw the Grindstone - I did. Things like this don't happen often, but it proves you have outs and that's what the deck is supposed to churn out - instant or top-decked solutions. This isn't M.B.C where you draw something and hope you can run the table with it - almost everything you draw in this deck becomes an immediate and relevant threat forcing your opponent to deal with it immediately (Magus, Jaya, Painter, Imperial Recruiter).
The difference between Imperial Painter and Dragon Stompy is Dragon Stompy uses bigger creatures to smash face for the win. This deck plays more like control (even more-so) and you can deal with things more handily. The deck is smooth as it is and changing an already winning formula is ludicrous. The deck is sooooo much fun and very competitive. Two very enthusiastic thumbs up.
Imperial Painter does look pretty sweet.
A Legend, (or anyone else who has played it alot) is Imperial Recruiter significantly more consistent than Dragon Stompy? And what are its tougher match-ups? (or match-ups generally for that matter?)
Imperial Recruiter adds a certain level of consistency to a deck which sorely lacks tutor effects. The fact this creature blocks, attacks, has a friendly cost, and fetches you every creature in your deck gives it a boost of adrenaline.
Dragon Stompy's sole purpose is to kill you as fast as possible while using permanent-based control effects that stop you from playing your spells effectively putting you in no-man's land. Dragon Stompy is an archetype which plays similar to Imperial Painter, except one deck can draw into an "oops, I win" card in Grindstone which is far cheaper than casting and pumping into Arc Slogger. There are plenty of control elements in both decks to maintain the comparison, but ultimately they are two separate entities and should be treated as such.
The Imperial Painter deck does not need Grindstone to always win. It is one of the first competitive Painter lists in Legacy that relies on the power of the Servant alone to win. With the other nasty creatures the deck packs, such as Magus of the Moon, Vexing Shusher, etc, it just simply goes into beat-down mode. I've won a majority of my games that way.
So I decided to take your word that the deck was solid and tested it a bit on MWS:Quote:
Originally Posted by A Legend
I played MBC - A deck this deck has a lot of problems with. None of my creatures ever stuck and I felt that I never had enough 'Blasts to combat the insane amounts of creature destruction that the deck was playing.
If I played that MU again, I probably would have just played lands until I could drop Servant + Grindstone and win in one turn.
I'm sure the Thresh MU is decent, just based on all sorts of Blasts.
I found the deck incredibly reliant on Servant to do anything, however. You have a decent chance of having it in your opening hand when you count in Recruiter, but basically you're going to have to mull into it if you don't have it.
Maybe you can beat Threshold without Servant? I'd be surprised, though.