you can replace one draw with one dredge. You dredge the dredge number on the card, for example Golgari Thug is dredge 4 so you put 4 cards in your graveyard for one draw.
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you can replace one draw with one dredge. You dredge the dredge number on the card, for example Golgari Thug is dredge 4 so you put 4 cards in your graveyard for one draw.
Alright Parcher, that sounds just logical. But then Iīve got another one for you: Letīs say we side for g2 against Zoo. We do like:
-3 Unmask -1 DA -1 Hypnotist -1 LED +3 Tribe +3 Grudge. Now weīve still got 3 LED left, would you side CoV to be on the "safe" side even if they have leyline or just keep the chance of "killing" t1 if they havenīt got the crypt? Iīd say we keep some LEDs...
Against anything blue I guess we just keep Unmask in then? Apart from that, the sideboard plans pretty much stay the same I guess...
I can't envision any Zoo deck running Leyline. And yes, I'd keep some LEDs against them. More for the ability to instantly combo off in conjunction with a Coliseum(they dn't run Wasteland), or a Breakthrough after they crack a Crypt, than on the 1st turn. I've had too many games where I dump half my deck and clear their hate in Game Three on turn one, only to have them top deck Crypt immediately. You rarely can afford to play around it, but landing a first turn Tribe or PImp against Zoo is usually better than going all-in post-board. Te deck just becomes too diluted after boarding to easily get the immediate win/lock.
How do we side against Enchantress? Iīm not sure whether itīs better to just keep our MD as it is and opt for the fast kill or to try to get some answers with Chains/Wispmare. Imho itīs better to keep the MD and just hope because they have so many ways of getting us out of the game that itīs easier to therapy them and go for a t1-3 kill, isnīt it?
Parcher, are you sure that Wispmare is good enough to warrant a slot? Iīd also like the fourth Unmask to fight ANT, but I havenīt enough time to test a 1-off-sbslot (means some weeks).
In the NA Mid-Atlantic, GY based decks are at an all time high; and so is GY hate. That SB is based accordingly. I never have a problem with beating Combo, so my judgement might be off. And I do bring in Chain against Enchantress just because we are not fast enough if they can drop the turn one Sprawl, turn two Grass, and support it.
Alright, but what do we take out then? I like Unmask as well as LED, Iīd probably take out 1 Ichorid 1 BfB 1 LED, but then it getīs difficult. Sorry for asking that much, but that is one of the matchups I havenīt tested and I want to be prepared for this weekend.
If I top8, youīll get all the credit :tongue:
Take out the one DA, the 12th land (a City, if you switched the City to the main for the 2nd DA like I suggested), since they have no LD, and you can both can't keep a no-lander post-board, and can cast Chain with anything; one LED, and one Bridge or Ichorid. You can't remove a DR even though you only need two, in case you have to pitch one to an early Unmask, and even though the tokens may speed a DR, you'll never be able to attack with them. So I'd probably go with Bridge as the fourth.
If they only have Grass/Confinement, and no Moat, I'd keep the LED though, since you can swing through Grass with a Troll+LED for the win. That and an early Chain have been how I usually get a quick win. Also, after Wheel (post-board, anyway),your first Therapy target should be Halo. Since not only can it shut off your other Therapies, it can nix an all-in with Troll or Iona if they have them in multiples.
DA speeds up our clock, but it sounds logical to keep as much DR-Enablers(Ichorid) as possible.
Allright, thatīs all imho. Iīm going to play your "new" 75 saturday with 3 Byes. Letīs see what happens :)
Thanks for everything!
Thoughts on siding in leyline against zoo to counter the fact that they can kill off creatures pretty much on a whim?
Small local weekly tournament, 18 players, 5 rounds for a cut to top 4. Meta usually 30% BG rock, 20% folk, 20% zoo. Played pretty much Parcher's but with 1 iona and 1 hypnotist as DR targets and 3 studies instead of unmasks.
R1 Jeff playing BU CB-top fae
G1 (him 20 18 15, me 20 19 18): Therapy saw edict in his hand, 3rd turn Iona names black. He scoops never having played a creature or bitterblossom.
G2 (him 20 19 14 13 9 8 3 2, me 20): +2 grudge +3 firestorm +1 CoB. He has turn 1 crypt. I hardcast grudge it turn 2. He FoWs my first 2 attempts to therapy myself as I tried to get a dredger in the GY. I eventually do. Pretty sure he topped 50 times trying to find his 2 other crypts. He has no creatures on the board all game, and sets up CB+top the turn before my ichorids, narcs, and zombies finally get there.
1-0 (2-0)
R2 Sam playing ANT
G1 (him 20 14 13 2, me 20 17) - He's a friend but doesn't tell me what he's playing despite being apparently so quick with his match that he was able to watch me R1 and see I was playing dredge. I win the roll and elect to play because I smell combo. I get him down to 13 turn 3 with ichorids. At the end of that turn he decides for 5 minutes whether to crack his fetch and play a brainstorm, for which I give him a hard time and rightfully so. He plays petals, led, and a fetch. He plays ad naus with BBB floating at storm 6. He sees rituals, tutors, and a ponder at 3 life. He cracks his fetch and ponders, then scoops.
G2 (him 20 19, me 20) - +1 unmask +1 chosen. I unmask 1st turn, he brainstorms in response and I see petals and IGG and think oh nos. He has 2nd turn ad naus.
G3 (him 20, me 20) - I have therapy but elect to play imp 1st turn because have a dredger and the breakthrough, he has the 1st turn LED and inf tutor for ad naus, I don't feel as bad for not playing therapy.
1-1 (3-2)
R3 Randy playing pox
g1 (him 20 19 16, me 20 19 17 16) - Turn 2 he smallpoxes taking out his bloodghast and taking out my coliseum and 2 bridges. I have a couple zombies, a 17/17 troll, and ichorids in my GY by turn 4. His bloodghast chooses to stay in his GY where it belongs. I therapy him naming deed and goyf before realizing he took green out of his deck this week. Zombies get there.
g2 (him 20 19 18 17 16, me 20 19 18 17 16) - No SB because I know he only has GY hate in the form of 3 or so crypts and no leylines, but I forget about extirpates. He mulls to 4, has one land all game. I keep a hand of study, narc, land, coliseum, dredger, therapy, and sadistic. I therapy him turn 2 or 3 and see a hand of 2 abyssals, 2 nighthawks, 1 therapy. He extirpates my bridges some turn later but he really had no hope having never drawn a 2nd land. I ping him 5 turns with a hardcast narc before he scoops after my coliseum puts a bunch of goodies in my GY.
2-1 (5-2)
R4 Matt playing elfball
G1 (him 20, me 20) - I win the roll and have turn 2 Iona.
G2 (him 20, 18, 17, 15, 14, 7, me 20) - +2 grudge +3 firestorm +1 CoB. He mulls to 6. He has 5 elves on turn 2, then passes. On my turn I firestorm discarding 5, he's in disbelief. I later hardcast therapy successfully netting glimpse. By turn 6 or so I DR Iona and get 12 zombies.
3-1 (7-2)
R5 Jeff playing enchantress
G1 (him 20 19, me 20) - A friend who's playing Sam's deck, so I know the exact decklist which runs 1 halo 1 blood moon 1 sigil 1 moat maindeck. We're both 3-1, we have to play it out as I can draw into top 4 but he can't. He wins the roll and plays utopia sprawl, pass. I play land, LED, breakthrough, crack LED in response, put 20 cards in the GY but no narc, have to pass. He plays elephant grass. I dredge, unsuccessfully therapy him seeing moat, wild growth, elephant grass, lands. I DR Iona naming white knowing his only outs are o-rings, and therapy #2 and #3 him strips both green cards. He scoops.
G2 (him 20, me 20) - +1 ray of revelation. He bemoans how terrible Sam's deck's SB is and chooses to SB in 1 card which he shows me is ground seal, but I know sam also has a compost in there so I try to act nonchalantly. He mulls to 4, I show him a land of LED, study, land, coliseum, and dredgers. He scoops.
4-1 (9-2)
Sam was one of the best players in the tourney so I have no trouble knowing that my only two losses were to him. Top 4 was affinity, 43 lands w/scapeshift and treasure hunt, ANT, and me. It was midnight and we did not want to play till 2am (though our decks wouldn't take that long). We split and call it a night.
NQN is doing good at the GP right now.
He gathered 36 points so far!
Went 13-4 after loosing the last round for top16/maybe top8. Finished 26th, little report will follow after Iīve slept :=)
Here we go:
First of all I spent my Byes to get my luggage back which stayed in Amsterdam, then after ~6 hours we started Round 4
Day1
R4: Supreme Blue 2-0
R5: Uw Faeries Mulled to oblivion and didnīt cast 1 Spell g1, had the nuts hand after two mulligans g2 but he just layed down one of his three! Leylines+Force backup 0-2
R6: Merrows 2-0
R7: Rock e 2-0
R8: BantSurvival 1 3 Mulligans g2, 2 in g3 lost with Iona on green since he had 1 Trinket for the Crypt after topdecking a creature for the survival one turn before I could kill him 1-2
R9: UB Reanimator G1 he went for t2 Sphinx, g2&g3 neither of us managed to get a Leyline in play but I had the chain for Archon 2-1
7-2 9-5
Day2
R1: Uw Merrows Bad Player, nice hands 2-0
R2: MUC with Energy Field He Told me that he has no hate so I sided Chains, he went for Island, double Crypt. I had P.Imp so he obv had no chance 2-0
R3: Merrows g1 FTK, g2 He mulled to 3 FoW 1 Relic 1 Merfolk, I had therapy+Tribe.
R4: ANT Lucked pretty hard g2 after I mulled to 4 and still won via DDD :D 2-0
R5: BantProgenitus (Paulo..DaRosa) Surprised me with Wheel g2, I had the t2 kill with Unmask Backup, won g3 against Crypt+Relic 2-1
R6: Zoo 7 Mulligans+him having hatecards immediatly 1-2
R7: ANT Again, lucked my way through g2 and won g3 on the back of him keeping a slow hand 2-0
R8: CounterTop Kept 7 with LED+Land g1 because I wanted to go DDD against him, he just went Goyf,Goyf,Goyf and I dredged 1 Ichorid+lands in 18 cards. NExt dredge wouldīve been 2 Narco 3 Bridge. G2 I emptied his hand, put my hand in the bin with Coliseum at the table. He drew BS, got the Crypt and beat me down after BT+Coliseum didnt find anything in 6 turns. 0-2
Day2
6-2 13-5
10-4 21-10 in total plus Byes.
To sum up, the deck was awesome again. The matches I lost were due to 7-8 Mulligans or just finding nothing. THerfor I lucked hard against the two ANT guys so I think itīs just fair enough. Every Opponent had 4+ Hatecards, two times Leylines, two times Trap. I did one FTK, some second rounders but most of the time I just went for the Ichorid route. LED was underperforming but was still alright. I played Parchers newest list with -1 Wispmare +1 Grudge.
Funny sidenote: I had aching muscles after the 16th round because I did most of the mulligans during the last 4 :D
Greetz,
NQN
I just realized I have a playset of Bridges, Nacros, DReturns, PImps and Ghasts.
What is the current decklist for this deck?
Also, is there a build that doesnt utilize Ghasts? (I know I have them but Undiscovered Paradise is scarce in my area, and expensive online)
Any advises against hate? How good is this deck if you know know one runs grave hate? How do you get around Mogg Fanatics/Cursecatchers (I run both Goblin and Merfolks and this has always my tech against Dredge)
Congrats Jan! I still would have run more Leyline removal, but that's a better result than I ever had with the deck in a tournament (outside of going 9-0 without dropping a game one time). So I can't argue with the results.
Always keep in mind, whether LED has an impact in the actual game, it does make your opponents play differently. Especially Combo. The fear they have of that extra speed the other versions can't obtain will often cause misplays and mulligans that you will never see from them otherwise. In addition to the brokeness it get when you actually use it, of course.
Great job NQN, glad to see you did well!
If you guys were using leyline in your sideboard, what matchups would you bring it in against? Obviously the mirror, but then what else?
Reanimator and maybe Loam-engine decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by junkdiver
Since Loam/x usually brings leyline as their hate, I prefer to just side chains and keep Unmasks in the main. Siding 8 cards really weakens the decks strategy.
Ok cool.
What about against maybe zoo? They have so many ways to kill bridges, and it would nerf their lavamancers, and potentially goyfs after they hate away your yard?
Just an idea, I hate playing against red because they keep me zombie free too easily games 2 and 3, but it is probably not worth the 4 spots.
Also what about crucible decks? Like against lands and stax even maybe. Stax would not be able to handle it's own smoke stack as well and the wasteland recursion gets shut down, but again I don't know if that enough to warrant four slots, just throwing around ideas.
You only want Leyline in matchups were it read "Win" because it weakens your opening hands. Against Ichorid f.e. you can keep Leyline+"not the best" because itīs worth it. You canīt do that against the decks you mentioned. Speaking of Zoo and R/x in generel: I donīt see them killing their creatures beeing a big problem for us. We can still beat them with Ichorids, DR huge Trolls/Iona or just empty their hand via therapys.
Remember that every creature they kill (lets say with L.Bolt) means -1 handcard, -1 attacker/blocker and -2 CA in total.
Staxx is already a horrible matchup, just side Chains and hope for the best/keep your MD and do the same on the play.
Cool, thanks NQN for the explanation that makes sense. Only part I didn't understand is what is "MD"? Sorry I am not 100% on the magic abbreviations yet :X
The stax matchup really does suck I have found in my limited experience with it. The only game I won was with mega Ichorids recurring dancing around the tabernacle magus.
It brings me to a question though, has anyone ever tried Nether Shadow in the deck? I see some of the vintage lists use him, and he dances around tabernacle effects with Ichorid. Also he is black unlike Nacro so he can be eaten by Ichorid, and often sees play more than once. Anyways just maybe as a Narco number 5 or 6 or something.:really:
Is there any way to tweak the deck to be better against stax? I feel like it's game over as soon as they land ghostly prison or humility. Not to mention their turn 1 drops are pretty strong against us. Is the best idea against them to just win faster?
Troll beats Humility, and Troll+LED beats Prison. Prison is their only really relevant card, (for Geddon Stax, which is seems you are describing) so always aim for it with discard first.
That is definitely some good information about the troll against humility... I had no idea it worked that way... In general Humility interactions just confuse me.
Regarding Leyline one more time, would you guys bring it in against Thresh? My friend who plays Canadian says that he has won very few games where the opponent starts with a Leyline in place. Is it worth the spots in that matchup you think?
To be blunt, any meta where Ichorid would board Leyline, is likely awful for Thrash. However, since they only can bring in Crypt as hate, I'd only bring Grudge. Yes, they can't win without a graveyard in most cases, but it's not worth the slot for such a favorable match.
Did you all take a look at the result of the latest SCG $5K? I was quite surprised to see that Dredge is losing hard to Zoo. The results against Merfolk weren't very impressive either (i.e. the 2 most popular decks right now).
I realize this report isn't perfect since we don't know how many of the Dredge lists are LED Ichorid. That said: against a field full of Zoo and Merfolk what changes would you make? Should Tireless Tribe go maindeck now and put Unmask in the board? DR targets = Iona + FKZ?
No.
I was there. The Ichorid players were both awful, and using LED-less. Merfolk is a joke, and Zoo isn't much more difficult.
What is the list you played at the GP, NQN? I went back a few pages and couldn't find it. Is this the same list you would continue to play? I'm planning on playing Ichorid at the SCG 5k this weekend, and don't have any experience with the LED version, but I thought I'd at least try my hand at goldfishing it a bit before dismissing it. Thanks.
According to his posts his list is exactly like parchers with the only difference being that he cut the wispmare in the sideboard for an ancient grudge.
Also what do you guys think awaits ichorid in the near future?
I am asking because people start to (over-)hype Reanimator which will result in more gy hate in peoples sideboards.
Is it still smart to play Ichorid or is it more a stubborn thing playing it?
I don't think that Ichorid will be affected all too much but I rather ask someone who really knows how to play this deck.
Don't forget Loam-based decks. Yes. This is also what Parcher was worrying about in the last time, but somehow here in Germany, I don't feel any difference (at least I have not observed that the Meta has changed, there's still a lot of Zoo and a lot of Gayfolk).Quote:
Originally Posted by EaD
It's pretty reversed here: Not Ichorid suffers splash damage from Reanimator-Hate, Reanimator suffers splash damage from Dredge-Hate!
And if you are a advanced Dredge-player, you won't have trouble to circumvent GY hate and win through multiple Crypt-effects. I only lost 2 games against GY hate in a total of 4 whole tournaments (one being Relic cycles into Relic and the other one was T0 double-Leyline which I'd also have won actually if he didn't StoP'd EVERY Ichorid I had and also had 3 Deeds total).
Reanimator - despite being a "normal" deck - has got a harder time to deal with stuff like Crypt and Relic. Good, they have Krosan Grips in their SB, but Reanimate costs them a huge amount of life and a Nacatl or soemthing similar can also be a pain in the ass (it's like Ad Nauseam, the less life you have, the more Reanimate sucks).
It's a good deck per se which needs some practice, but if your metagame is full of GY hate, it's difficult. You should also keep an eye out for TempoThresh-players and how good they are. I've beaten Jaynel to oblivion with TempoThresh yesterday a few times, it can be a challenge.Quote:
Is it still smart to play Ichorid or is it more a stubborn thing playing it?
Well, no matter what hate you are facing, permadiscard is often the way to win against non-Jailer-hate (and no one plays such a narrow card as Jailer). Ancient Grudge is also excellent.Quote:
I don't think that Ichorid will be affected all too much but I rather ask someone who really knows how to play this deck.
But what I am more afraid of are actually tempodecks like Canadian Thresh (or my black Tempo Thresh), Dreadstill and Merfolk with Stifle-Waste and maindeck Relics. Especially Dreadstill can set you onto a ridiculous clock. But if you play with LED, you can still blow them away pretty fast.
But against TempoThresh and Gayfolk, Tireless Tribe shines!
Yes, I played Parcher 75 with 1 more grudge.
@EaD: As long as people keep on playing Relic/Crypt and not Leyline(or a combination or hatecards) everything is fine. So far Iīve yet to loose against Artifacthate (not kidding) while Leyline is giving me headache whenever I see it. For me, Iīve played Ichorid too much in my area (top8ed every tournament because people werenīt prepared) and will change to ANT for some time.
But itīs still a very, VERY underrated and good deckchoice imho.
I'd been doing fairly well in my meta with Ichorid, top 8ing four tournaments in a row at the store and t16ing the local SCG, but at the last tourney a month and a half ago, I got trounced, running into leylines in 2 matches, Dragon Stompy (albeit with bad mulligans on my part), GBW rock with 3 Extirpate+4 crypt, and Tempo Thresh, which I have personally found to be a tough matchup. I think that that is a pretty unfavorable field for Ichorid, and I am considering laying low with the deck and playing something else at the next tourney, especially now that Reanimator won Madrid. Is that meta actually unfavorbale, or do I just have the fear?
My meta is 50% rock, I'm not joking. I've topped 4 for the past 3 weeks, but lately everyone's putting in ravenous traps when they see me enter the store. I've still done ok and no one has leylines, but I'm thinking of switching to ANT too in the meantime and lying low.
I literally have not run the deck in a tournament for over six months. First, it was due to it becoming more and more popular. Now, that it has been hated out by everyone imaginable to the point where it might be safe to play again, ReAnimator pops up to worry again. And people aren't going to switch hate just for that deck. They may eschew Trap, but everything else is still live. I'd probably wait to see what the meta moves towards to deal with the possible spike in ReAnimator showing before jumping back in. At anything large enough that you can't fully predict the meta, anyways.
Ok gents, some last minute questions about this deck before I (and I assume many others now, due to that damn Starcity article that went up an hour or so ago) play this deck at Indianapolis:
1. When returning Iona, what colors do you name against what decks? I assume the obvious "removal" colors but what do you do when playing against Zoo, who as we've seen in Madrid, can kill Archangel three fucking times with burn. What color do you name against Bant? Tendrils? etc.
2. How does the new SB go over with the old SB plans on page 17? I'm not asking to be spoon fed here (ok, maybe just a little) and most of it can be figured out easily, but what do you change now that you have stuff like Leyline and no Firestorm to board in/out?
3. How often does anyone actually DR Sadistic nowadays? When do you DR him and against whom? Is a turn 1 mind twist always better than turn 1 Iona (I guess yes?)
4. So the plan against Leyline is mull into bounce or Wispmare, but I assume if you are playing against the rouge thresh deck with SB'd Leylines you probably just roll over and die. How loose of a hand can you afford to keep just to be able to play the bounce?
5. I'm not sure about taking out Ancestor's Chosen. I think according to Parcher's SB that I will -1 Leyline +1 Chosen. I think he is just too much of a beating against both ANT and Zoo.
Lastly, I would just like to thank you Parcher, and others such as NQN and Adan for all the help you guys have given players like myself who wish to do well with this deck yet don't get many opportunities to do so. I will be registering this deck as "Parcher Dredge" on Sunday, wish me luck!
Monocolored Decks: OBV!Quote:
Originally Posted by Meister_Kai
Bant: I'd say white, it locsk down removal, War Monks, Rafiq in some cases and they if they play Survival, they can't legend-rule your Iona with Retainers into Iona. Then you just beat them down and spawn tokens with Ichorids. But needless to say that you usually barbecue bluebased decks per definition.
Tendrils: Black. They may have bounce, but they need to bounce her first before they can go off. And if you don't name black, they can still topdeck you out of nowhere. If you see Red, you should Therapy for Burning Wishes. But Iona on black also restrict Burning Wish's usefullness, so I'd always go for black.
You have more Tireless Tribe which are nice against Aggrodecks. The sideboard is still a kind of transformational: You switch to noLED Dredge postboard to dodge hate better, but reserve the ability to be fast via LED in matchups where that matters (Lands, Combo, Reanimator etc.).Quote:
2. How does the new SB go over with the old SB plans on page 17? I'm not asking to be spoon fed here (ok, maybe just a little) and most of it can be figured out easily, but what do you change now that you have stuff like Leyline and no Firestorm to board in/out?
Firestorm is not that necessary anymore as a lot of decks will have a hard time to kill a Tireless Tribe whose toughness goes infinite with just 2 cards. Zoo needs Path (some still don't play it), Merfolk needs Jitte (which you can and should Grudge if necessary) and Red Tempo Thresh can't actually do anything except EE'ing it maybe.
If you can go off 1st Turn I always want Sadistic Hypnotist, but in the mid- and lategame, Iona is better. This split actually covers all moments.Quote:
3. How often does anyone actually DR Sadistic nowadays? When do you DR him and against whom? Is a turn 1 mind twist always better than turn 1 Iona (I guess yes?)
Uhm, you might die then, yes, but if they reveal you Leyline g2, you can still modify your deck to combat Leyline. But I would not be too worried about Treshdecks playing Leyline since mulligan into Leyline is strictly worse than playing Relics into which you can chain with your cantrips.Quote:
4. So the plan against Leyline is mull into bounce or Wispmare, but I assume if you are playing against the rouge thresh deck with SB'd Leylines you probably just roll over and die. How loose of a hand can you afford to keep just to be able to play the bounce?
Cards you should be worried about when playing against Thresh are actually just Crypt, Relic and Ravenous Trap (which is still rather exotic and rarely seen).
But I think no one would dedicate more than 4 slots for the Ichorid matchup, so if you play against Line, the optimal hand would be Land, Discarder, Dredger, Leyline-Hate and 3 bla. Ooor if they mulligan down to 5 or something, you can also handle Leyline and DDD.
IMHO Leyline isn't as tragic as Jan is whining about :>. I usually lose to these lucksacks which always open 2 of them which is pretty stupid, but in Legacy you can do beatdown by hardcasting your little critters. It's more dramatic in Vintage.
Iona basically has the same purpose against ANT and Zoo as Chosen, except that she's more obese than CHosen. Chosen is actually supposed to obsolete the opponent's resources by bringing your life total to a level where their resources are not enough. Iona cuts their resources directly, so the result is the same, except that Iona kills faster. And Tireless Tribes are still big against Aggro.Quote:
5. I'm not sure about taking out Ancestor's Chosen. I think according to Parcher's SB that I will -1 Leyline +1 Chosen. I think he is just too much of a beating against both ANT and Zoo.
But Leyline is 0 or 4. Everything else irrational.
Credits actually go to Parcher, at least my knowledge about the deck is based on his contributions to the deck.Quote:
Lastly, I would just like to thank you Parcher, and others such as NQN and Adan for all the help you guys have given players like myself who wish to do well with this deck yet don't get many opportunities to do so. I will be registering this deck as "Parcher Dredge" on Sunday, wish me luck!
Every time you post something like this addressing all my questions it is a great help! Don't kid yourself, even though Parcher created its decklist, many people are involved with furthering the understanding of this deck!Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
Anyhow, thanks for answering all my questions! However, since I am a insatiable bastard, I have even more:
1. Hand goes like this: Gemstone, dredger, pimp, cabal therapy, 3 other cards. It's game one and I'm in the dark. If you honestly don't know what your opponent is playing, do you always blind therapy on force on the play? If you know you are playing against non blue game one, I'd assume you'd always play pimp first?
2. The mirror match. What's the SB plan? I can think of the obvious -4 LED, -1 DA, but do you bring in 9 cards for this matchup? Is Unmask the right card to SB out? If you know you are playing against the mirror game one on the play, and you have a choice of playing either pimp or therapy, which do you most often play? Do you hope to blind call a breakthrough if or when you therapy? I assume Sadistic is bad here, so the plan is to DR Iona if you have Leyline in play and call blue, but if you don't name black?
3. It appears to me that Dragon Stompy comes down to:
a. Winning the die roll
b. Resolving a discard outlet before they CoV (winning die roll)
c. DR Iona really quickly and before they explode with creatures (probably winning the die roll)
As DS loses to Reanimator without a resolved Arc Slogger for Archon, coupled with the fact that the deck frequently just craps out on people, I will assume that while the deck is a problem, its likely not one to be encountered. However, DS might be a good choice for Indianapolis.
Again, thanks for answering any or all of my questions.
Do not forget that if they should turn 1 Moon you, and you are on the draw, then you can just go up to 8 cards and discard your dredger. Depending on how well you dredge, and if they drop a Trinisphere or not, you can actually expect to smack a Dread Return by turn 5 or so, and block almost everything with Narcomoeba/Zombies.
Your other 3 cards in that scenario are pretty important, but I would say that if you blind therapy for force, you risk giving your opponent not only access to basically a whole turn free of dredging, but also the ability to find an answer for your t2 Imp. I think you probably run the Imp out there, because the chances that a random opponent has force are roughly equal to 40% (there are mulligans into hands with force and unplayable 7-carders with force, etc to consider besides raw probability) times the percentage of FoW decks in the metagame.
In the mirror I would run Imp out there on the principle that if they have land, LED, breakthrough or some other hand that makes Breakthrough nuts on t1, you are going to lose anyway to time walking yourself if you therapy.If you miss then you've also time walked yourself I would board in Leylines if you have them, and Leyline removal, and then I would aggressively mulligan to Leyline. Unmask leaves if your're on the draw; on the play, you probably shave a thug, an Imp, and one other thing.
The three other cards are too important to discount. But, yes, you would lead with PImp if you know it's neither Combo, nor Control that you are playing against. You can always use Therapy as an outlet if they Force PImp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meister_Kai
Never side out LED in the Mirror. You do side out Unmask, as well as 1 Ichorid, 1 Therapy, 1 DA, and 1 City for Chains and Leyline. Unless of course, you know they don't run Leyline. With this version, a hand with Dredger+LED+Breakthrough or Coliseum is almost as good as Leyline, so don't mulligan that type looking for one. You do Therapy if it is this same version, and you do name Breakthrough since it (and Coliseum) are the only un-raceable cards. Sadistic is actually very good, since he gives another permanent discard outlet that can be sac'ed to Ichorids, and he can also give you control of who wins the Bridge wars. And you are correct on the Iona calls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meister_Kai
How do you guys feel like the matchup is against Belcher? Any tips :\ ?
Against Belcher your combo is racing theirs. With a blind Therapy I always name Charbelcher first because it's possible to race a resolved Empty the Warrens.
I played this deck at SGC Indy and didn't do well. For me FKZ was very good game 1 vs. Tabernacle (which I played twice) in most other matches it could have just been a grave troll. Apparently I am also one of those awful Ichorid players because I couldn't beat Merfolk or Zoo. Thinking back on my games I think my biggest error is I am trying to "combo out fast" with my dredging and exposing too many bridges. One of my merfolk opponents had Relic + Ravenous Trap; the Zoo player only had 1 crypt, but I couldn't reload fast enough and died to his Thoctar + Nacatls.
Could someone walk through a "normal" sequence of plays against these aggro deck since I am obviously misplaying?