Because MTGsalvation is just as feeble minded as Evan Erwin. The two are a perfect couple.Quote:
Originally Posted by codegeass
Also,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
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Because MTGsalvation is just as feeble minded as Evan Erwin. The two are a perfect couple.Quote:
Originally Posted by codegeass
Also,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
The last page of this thread looks like it was copy-pasta'd from 4chan.
For thread relevance, +1 for LED.
Hilarious I really did want to see the video you made of me thanks. Proves how wortless your life's really are. By the way i have alway's been aware of Revised Reprint Policy, and that none of the cards in the lighting and fire deck where on it. I was just trying to point out how much affordable WOTC is trying to make legacyQuote:
Originally Posted by Morbid-
Why are you mad, bro? Just be easy.
I just want to get back to talking about mtg, instead of everyone taking a crack at me. now that you are being reasonable what is your opinion on banning SOTF?Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
With all this talk of LoA getting unbanned, why not unban Mishra's Workshop? I think we could fit it in a Stax shell...
Isn't Mishra's Workshop a little to broken for legacy? I mean it is a vintage staple? I do not know the card combo's because the only format i play is legacy. But i have seen it played for fun in a vintage deck a couple of times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.C
Wow I just saw a SOTF sell for $25 on ebay. Wish i would have been able to grab it. It is amazing how low they are selling for right now, even when most intelligent player do not think it will be banned or rather dose not deserve to be banned. But WOTC is not know for making smart decisions.
he was joking.Quote:
Originally Posted by codegeass
edit: 'shop in a fun deck? lolz. couple of times? lolz.
Wow that is the second time have not got that someone was joking. I do not have sense of humor i guess. Well thanks for not taking a crack at me unlike everyone else, Just because i can't tell what joke is.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiblast
Thats it. This is crazy...
This will be the obligatory unban Land Tax post.
Is the card that broken? When it terms of stalling the game (without getting infractions), its as good as Landstill. Besides, don't you get infractions for purposely slowplaying ala Saito?
Yes, its really good with Scroll Rack but Counterbalance is just as good as with Sensei's Divining Top.
Is it too much to ask to play Parfait?
Anyone else having a "Bye Vengevine Survival" party? If not, you can come to mine. Just bring your weight in hot chicks. 400+ pound guys welcome.
It's like New Years, only things actually change and get better.
Are you the same guy quoted in my sig? Play combo and HOPE to get matched up against survival.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Oh man, haven't you read my reply in the other thread? It's not Dec 1st, it's Dec 20th!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Ugh, are you serious? I thought they started doing that shit on the 1st. I need to pay more attention.Quote:
Originally Posted by SurFitOfTheVine
Oh well. Back to three more weeks of attempting to inch my way up the meaningless world Eternal rankings and trying to pass the cheaters who dwell within.
EDIT: Bring hot chicks anyway. I can keep them busy for 19 extra days.
Yes, well, then I started playing it, then ended up with my own build, then got good with it, then realized I'd never once had a Legacy deck I was more fearless going into a blind matchup with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doomsday
So you didnt play flashhulk ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Still I am not sure what I should think about banning surival... but I have to point out that it seems the center european meta adopted way better for VV as the american. Sure it also gets Top8 here but it doesnt dominate like that.
For some crazy reason as good as it adopted to VV , Dredge got dominant the same moment, which I dont really get why since plenty iof the usual hate espacilly unexperienced people use as a standard should hit both decks. Maybe its just a fluke for some weeks of lucky dredge players.
So you are saying you are playing it now, and that it's too powerful... well, maybe that's some placebo effect =PQuote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Not trying to compliment you, but your results could mean that you are a better player/deckbuilder than the ones you were playing against...
And why are you so certain that VV is the one getting banned?
BTW, it will be dec 20th then, right?
Yes, Dec 20th.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
No, neither card is going to get banned. The meta is simply not used to aggro-combo decks and is simply used to:
aggro-control > Counterbalance
Counterbalance > Storm
Storm > aggro-control
Once it adjusts, things will be alright. The meta will likely adjust to:
Vengevival > Counterbalance
Counterbalance > Storm
Storm > Vengevival
Well also have rogue decks of varying tier quality that can prey on two of the decks. I initially thought that Counterbalance will go away but I later re-thought that idea and decided that a large surge of combo decks will cause it to come back. However, Counterbalance will no longer be the deck of focus: it'll simply be capitalizing on the Vengevival rampage that will be stimulating Storm combo growth.
Let's take a look at our current "tier 1" decks on this site and see some of my theorycraft:
Vial Goblins
T.E.S - The EPIC Storm
Ichorid
Vengevival
CounterTop
Merfolk
Zoo
Bant Aggro and Pro Bant
New Horizons
Vengevival is the current DTB due to how well it has been doing. Any combo based decks are pretty good against it as Veggie lacks enough disruption to stop them and they are simply faster.
Vengevival
Storm
Ichorid
Countertop decks will likely capitalize on the surge of Storm and other odd combo decks trying to beat Vengevival.
Vengevival
Storm
Ichorid
Countertop
Merfolk has good game against blue-deck and with wasteland, cursecatcher, daze, FoW and spell pierce can even give combo a run for it's money. It may not have the greatest game against Vengevival decks, but it can prey on the rest of the meta.
Vengevival
Storm
Ichorid
Countertop
Merfolk
Vial Goblins, Zoo, Bant Aggro / Pro Bant and New Horizons will likely be pushed out as they don't have favorable games against BOTH Vengevival and Storm. Just about any sideboard you use for Vengevival is worthless against Storm, and vice versa. Mid-range decks like the ones listed above are going to eventually be the absolute worse choice for the new meta. No longer will the meta be about making an uber mid-range deck to fight countertop and simply hope to avoid storm decks. No, there will be too much storm and other combo decks and sideboarding for them means less slots for the Vengevival matchup.
If Merfolk are just preying on the rest of the meta, wouldn't Zoo and Goblin be in there too? Both decks are optimal against Merfolk and whatever Control decks are present in the DTB.
So your argument is that it's okay to have a format where Red doesn't exist except for Burning Wish and/or Firespout?Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
It's not too powerful because I'm playing it. I'm playing it because it's too powerful. I'm a pretty good deck designer, but I'm only a good player when I'm awake and focused, which is about half the time. If I'm sleepy, I play like shit. I still win with this deck when I'm sleepy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
And I'm not entirely certain Vengevine will be the one getting the axe. I think it -should- be Vengevine getting the axe. But I've got decklists for post-Survival Vengevine and post-Vengevine Survival both ready and waiting on the results.
Touche. In my defense, Flash Hulk was a far bigger atrocity than Survival or probably anything we'll ever see in the format again, and after multiple long naked therapy sessions with two gorgeous lady psychs, I've managed to block out that Flash Hulk ever happened. So I can't say that I have any idea what you're talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valrina
Sounds like you blocked out the time when memory yar was legal also ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Zoo and Goblins suck against combo and are not phenomonal against vengevival. They will be pushed out. Merfolk won't have to worry about them preying on it. Meanwhile, everyone is eventually going to play control that is good against storm, Vengevival, anti-vengevival decks, decks that can race Vengevival and Storm or decks that can prey on anything but vengevival. Zoo as I see it is a fast mid-range deck: not quite as quick as a Sligh or Burn deck but still quick. Goblins is a slower mid-range deck. Mid-range decks lose to combo and won't be able to handle both the Vengevival and combo matchup without having one suffer compared to the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
The previous meta was mid-range aggro-control vs countertop vs combo. It's now shifting to fast aggro / aggro-combo (vengevival being the tier 1 choice) vs countertop vs combo. Countertop decks will drop for now but once storm and other combo decks kick it it will return.
As it stands now, the meta is Vengevival beats pet decks, along with people crying about it.
Again, this is all theory craft.
Goblins being the red deck of choice for tier 1 and nothing else only speaks of how weak the color is, not of how powerful Vengevival is and is not a fault of the Vengevival deck. If anything, fast Sligh/Burn decks can give Vengevival decks a run for their money and may be more viable now that there will be less Countertop decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
tl;dr: Mid-range decks suck. Anything that sucks against both combo and vengevival is bad right now. Run vengevival, rouge anti-vengevival, combo, fast aggro or decks that can fight combo and the rogue decks.
Memory Jar's never been legal in Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valrina
Your argument is completely backwards. Goblins IS the premier red deck in the format, and now it's basically being pushed out by Vengevine Survival, which has a decent match against it, and is also ushering in more Storm Combo, which eradicates Goblins. Because of Vengevine Survival, playing Goblins is a terrible idea right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Furthermore, Zoo's getting pushed out by similar logic. Zoo gets puppy raped by Storm Combo, and struggles against Vengevine Survival.
Red is agreeably the worst color in Legacy. It has been for awhile. If not for Burning Wish, there would be months where you didn't see a top 8 deck packing any form of Red. My point is, why encourage a format evolution that makes it even worse?
Nt
Which is bad since there is almost no other variety in the color of mono red for a viable tier 1 deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Goblins is mid-range. Zoo is a slightly faster mid-range. Vengevival beats mid-range. Combo beats mid-range. Goblins now sucks. Zoo now sucks.Quote:
and now it's basically being pushed out by Vengevine Survival, which has a decent match against it, and is also ushering in more Storm Combo, which eradicates Goblins. Because of Vengevine Survival, playing Goblins is a terrible idea right now. Furthermore, Zoo's getting pushed out by similar logic. Zoo gets puppy raped by Storm Combo, and struggles against Vengevine Survival.
This is known as a meta-shift. What is your point? To state the obvious? Just because mid-range decks are bad does not warrant a banning: it warrants a meta shift. By the way, fast burn or sligh decks can give Vengevival and storm a run for their money but are terrible vs mid-range and countertop. Also note that Lightning Bolt can kill just about every creature in many Vengevival decks. Isn't that interesting...
Because people want to use good cards. Red has very few good cards outside of those for Goblins and a select few for combo. This issue of red being bad has noting to do with vengevival and is a separate issue.Quote:
Red is agreeably the worst color in Legacy. It has been for awhile. If not for Burning Wish, there would be months where you didn't see a top 8 deck packing any form of Red. My point is, why encourage a format evolution that makes it even worse?
Red doesn't offer much to legacy, true. But don't you think that has a lot to do with the inherent qualities of it's slice of the color pie? The red mechanics that work so well in a limited or standard environment don't work so well in the legacy card pool. The same could be said of white in vintage, whereas in Legacy white is a comparatively better color.
Unless red gets a new mechanic or the card quality goes up, I don't think we will see too much of red in legacy outside of goblins, zoo, or the occasional splash for fire spout and a few other fringe cards.
Wizards has said on multiple occasions that they try to avoid a metagame that is dominated by Combo. In fact it's the one archetype that they still hesitate to officially acknowledge as legitimate. Whether you agree or not, Survival is likely to be viewed as the Vengevine combo engine/enabler.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
And Vengevine needs an attack phase to win. Wizards encourages wins that require a creature to be turned sideways for lethal. They are not likely to see it as a combo deck in the same sense that TES or Belcher are.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
Storm combo doesn't need an attack phase and Countertop helps keep it in check.
Reanimator and ANT got hosed by the Mystical Tutor ban (which for those decks was basically a Vampiric Tutor).
Ichorid is kept in check by graveyard hate and loses to itself more than Storm does.
The rest of the combo decks are kept in check by aggro-control or control decks (Merfolk, Countertop, etc).
Are banings also gonna be effectiv the day they come out (read: 20th december)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
No, December's bannings will be announced on the 20th and then go into effect first of the year.Quote:
We have chosen to change the schedule of banned and restricted list announcements. The new announcement dates will be March 20, June 20, September 20, March 20, June 20, September 20, and December 20 with effective dates of April 1, July 1, October 1, and January 1, respectively.
Source: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...tg/daily/ld/17
This statement is a complete contradiction. TES and Belcher both frequently win in the attack phase.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Congratulations, you have a basic understanding of the checks and balances of modern legacy combo.Quote:
Storm combo doesn't need an attack phase and Countertop helps keep it in check.
Reanimator and ANT got hosed by the Mystical Tutor ban (which for those decks was basically a Vampiric Tutor).
Ichorid is kept in check by graveyard hate and loses to itself more than Storm does.
The rest of the combo decks are kept in check by aggro-control or control decks (Merfolk, Countertop, etc).
Now, look at Survival's win %s against the field.
Again, as many European players pointed out, Vengival isn't invincible. The meta can adapt. It always adapted ('cept for Flash, but dear God was it absurd). I do hope Wizards doesn't ban anything, expecially Survival. As I said in another post, that card is more than a card, it's a concept. Banning it would mean throwing a great part of Legacy's past and present brainstorming away.
Please, don't ban Survival. If you have to, ban Vengevine. It's not like Flash, where banning Hulk would have been quite pointless.
Also, as for LED, that would be downright stupid. As for now Storm Combo decks ala TES are perfectly fine, they don't need nerfing.
In regards to the earlier comment about WotC not wanting combo to be a pillar (too lazy to quote) - the context of this remark was in reference to Standard. Legacy can never be a format without combo because of the hugely diverse card pool. As more cards get printed, more interactions appear, and more combo decks are born. In fact, I'd venture to say that a large minority (if not an outright majority) of Legacy decks could be classed as combo decks in one way or another. Hell, even Goblins can combo off with Lightning Crafter + Skirk Prospector and Kiki Jiki.
I personally think it is too soon to properly assess the situation, and it could even do more harm than good - that's the problem with hasty bannings. You have to do a good amount of research to see what lurks just beneath the surface before you resort to such drastic measures. The last thing we need is for a new best deck to pop up and require yet another banning because its natural predators have been cut away. At any rate, after the huge uproar from banning Mystical Tutor earlier this year, perhaps they'll do the right thing for once and wait until the next announcement to make their move.
Don't get me wrong, it probably needs to be banned. But doing it now, just a few months after it has risen to dominance and before anyone has had an adequate chance to figure out how to attack it (kind of like when Dredge first appeared), would be monumentally stupid.
TL;DR - If I were WotC I'd wait until the next announcement.
So did Hulk-Flash.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Sure, versions that weren't able to kill turn 0 on the draw did.Quote:
Originally Posted by freakish777
Read in to it what you will. http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/twtw/119
Quote:
10. The Survival of Legacy
The banned and restricted announcement will go up on December 20 as usual—after Worlds. If any player is going to come up with a strategy to beat the Survival of the Fittest decks that have been dominating the format then the Team Competition may be the last chance that they get to do so before it is defeated through legislation.
Sigh. Damn broken Vengevine. Let's hope they'll unban some stupid card in exchange at least :(
Instead of bannings, lets talk about unbannings for a moment; im in favor of unbanning:
- Goblin Recruiter
- Frantic Search
- Land Tax
- Gush?
- Time Spiral
- Earthcraft
- Mind Twist
No, and never. So strong a combo enabler & CA. Vintage is a different environment where Jewelries are more popular than Islands and games end faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by ddt15
I am tinkering about people's reactions on this card, if printed
Survival of the Cruelist 1R
Enchantment Rare
R: Survival of the Cruelist deals 4 damage to target player. If the ability is activated the first time in a turn, counter it unless you discarded a creature card for the first time.
LOL, this isn't make a card forum and that is way too broken in Legacy, forget standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc