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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aleksandr
I start to really hate MtG.
Another evening of "me vs. Legacy = 0:1 drop". I swear I gonna quit.
Dear wizards, don't reprint duals and stuff in next few months.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
What's amusing to me is at one time there was a format defining card called Juzam Djinn sitting at $200 and it's buddy fellow format defining card sitting at $75 called Chaos Orb. Wow, how things have changed.
Seems format defining cards got cheaper. lol
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dahcmai
What's amusing to me is at one time there was a format defining card called Juzam Djinn sitting at $200 and it's buddy fellow format defining card sitting at $75 called Chaos Orb. Wow, how things have changed.
Seems format defining cards got cheaper. lol
Except $75 is roughly what the current cost of some format defining cards are.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Otter
I just got an email from Channel Fireball advertising a "Legacy and Vintage Blowout Sale" with. . .
$50 Force
$50 Diamond
$50 LED
$25 Wasteland
That's one hell of an enticing sale, how can I possibly resist?
And $50 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth o_0
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MattH
And $50 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth o_0
Oh wow, I didn't even catch that the first time, since I went straight to look at the legacy stuff. That's just fucking madness. Aren't ten mana fatties that nobody has used yet supposed to cost ten cents?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Otter
Oh wow, I didn't even catch that the first time, since I went straight to look at the legacy stuff. That's just fucking madness. Aren't ten mana fatties that nobody has used yet supposed to cost ten cents?
They have since lowered the price to $30, which is more reasonable (although still overpriced).
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I don't know where you looked, but SCG has him at $20. Which I still think is a bit overpriced for a 10 mana fatty that won't fit in a Reanimator shell. Hell, we don't even know what to expect in the rest of the set, I doubt this will be the best it will get.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Are they serious? That's just goofy. Makes you wonder if they got some inside info on that guy like "there's a card in the set for two mana that let's you play Eldrazi spells for free!". He's not even a good reanimation target, must less hard castable. Maybe if they gave us some more cost reducers and even then that seems unstable.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Originally Posted by
dahcmai
Are they serious? That's just goofy. Makes you wonder if they got some inside info on that guy like "there's a card in the set for two mana that let's you play Eldrazi spells for free!". He's not even a good reanimation target, must less hard castable. Maybe if they gave us some more cost reducers and even then that seems unstable.
They don't need inside info. SCG can sell anything because they have a propaganda machine named Evan Erwin. All they need to do is get Evan to start freaking out claiming this will be the best card ever and all the fools who listen to him and thought warren instigator was good etc etc will buy it.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Atwa
I don't know where you looked, but SCG has him at $20. Which I still think is a bit overpriced for a 10 mana fatty that won't fit in a Reanimator shell. Hell, we don't even know what to expect in the rest of the set, I doubt this will be the best it will get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dahcmai
Are they serious? That's just goofy. Makes you wonder if they got some inside info on that guy like "there's a card in the set for two mana that let's you play Eldrazi spells for free!". He's not even a good reanimation target, must less hard castable. Maybe if they gave us some more cost reducers and even then that seems unstable.
Just a few points to address here:
1) http://completed.shop.ebay.com/i.htm...c0.m283&_rdc=1 - current E-bay market (from people who have feedback as preseller) is a very solid $25. At $20, we are under the average market price of Kozilek by 20%.
2) Someone got a hold of a Rise of the Eldrazi print sheet, and started posting information on MTGSalvation before they were shut down. Not much was leaked, but enough information out there was leaked to complete an early teaser from Mark Rosewater:
"Rise of the Eldrazi is going to be a set built around the Eldrazi Titans, all of which have no color and are huge. For example, there are two Eldrazi at uncommon, the smaller of which is 7/7. All of the Eldrazi have a new ability called Annhilate. Creatures with Annihilator have a number; whenever a creature with Annhilator: X attacks, the defending player must sacrifice that many permanents. The Eldrazi are very expensive but there are artifacts that can create 0/1 creatures called Spawn tokens that can be sacrificed to add one colorless mana to your mana pool and will help you be able to cast the Eldrazi. In addition, the set has a new keyword called Level Up. You may spend mana on creatures with Level Up to improve their stats and abilities. This Limited environment is much slower than the one in Zendikar."
In short, one of the set mechanics is making 0/1 creatures that help you cheat larger creatures into play. The plant of Eye of Ugin in Worldwake also points towards this set being designed partly around huge creatures which can be cheated into play early.
3) The first way-advance preview card from Wizards is usually the card they view as being extremely desirable - which makes sense, because you want to get people talking about the set early with something flashy. Examples of the early teaser/spoiler that Wizards has used include Damnation, Jace the Mind Sculptor, and Arid Mesa. From a tracking perspective, the first card previewed in this way ends up being one of the chase cards of the set.
Just some thoughts - I don't know what Kozilek will or won't be worth in the future, but I wanted to talk about the here and now ($25ish on E-bay, consistantly), the information already presented about Rise of the Eldrazi, and the track record of Wizards and the first preview card from a set.
- Ben
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Well Ben, while your here with us.
Let's go back in time and reflect a bit. I want to go back to say Onslaught block or Mirrodin block. Can you tell us what super-advance chase rare cards were spoiled for these sets and then give us an idea of what speculative values they commanded at that time. I want to put previous standard legal card prices in perspective with the inflated values cards command today. Or maybe just set me straight and point out that chase cards from not so distant sets were actually on par with todays values.
Thanks
And this is not an attack on you or SCG btw, I'm just curious because I don't really remember.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Thanks Ben for that explanation, it just seems odd to see cards with that kind of stats go for that much, but if the Ebayer's and your customers are paying it, I guess it's the correct price. It just seems funny when you think about it. Even with cost reducers and massive ramping into mana, it's a rough road to count on casting 10 mana spells. Heh, what will become of standard when these kind of things see play? Next it will be Banding making the comeback and being awesome. : )
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Did anyone notice the price of Sneak Attack?
I don't know where it has been before the Eldrazi have been spoiled, but
at Magiccardmarket it's at 15€ which equals $20.
That's just hilarious speculation.
Also, show and tell doubled up to 14€ as well (i sold mine for 7,50 a month ago)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
The Rise of the Eldrazi giants should affect atleast a few cards
Sneak Attack and Show and Tell have already been increased.
I do not believe Sneak Attack will have a sustained increase.
There are three cards that I think will increase when people start testing. They
are:
Mosswort bridge
Fist of Suns
Hypergenesis
The first two can be put in a control shell and both of them allow for the full benefit of casting the Eldrazi. For the biggest guy this translates to an uncounterable win in most situation. That will probably make it worth the strain on a decklist to facilitate the 5 mana and the dreadnaught trick, but who knows.
The Hypergenesis increase will be from a newer, faster, and far more consistent kill hypergenesis deck. I think that it will be tempo based with a number of alternate casting cost free spells.
If the Hidden Fists control deck takes off, I expect Fist of suns to hit 14.50 and the Hideaway land to hit 9 bucks. If the Hypergenesis deck takes off, then I expect it to be slightly better than 20.00 since it is also gains from potential extended play.
Obviously, I am speculating but it is probably worth stating it in the message.
-Peace
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MasterC
Did anyone notice the price of Sneak Attack?
I don't know where it has been before the Eldrazi have been spoiled, but
at Magiccardmarket it's at 15€ which equals $20.
That's just hilarious speculation.
Also, show and tell doubled up to 14€ as well (i sold mine for 7,50 a month ago)
I don't know the exact number, but Sneak Attack has been very expensive forever. It's one of the favorite cards for the casual masses, so it always had an absurd price.
It will quickly bounce back, because decks around it are awful, true story.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I'm surprised at how fast Show and Tell is going up though, buy it now sets at $100? It's getting hard to keep up with all these mass price increases. I've been buying up anything I need to finish a playset just in case it shoots to a $25 card overnight. This is getting crazy.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Made my day last week when the last card in this giant box of blue was Show and Tell for a buck. It's ridiculous how a card that's mostly a 1-of in a SB is that expensive.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Originally Posted by
Jak.
Made my day last week when the last card in this giant box of blue was Show and Tell for a buck. It's ridiculous how a card that's mostly a 1-of in a SB is that expensive.
As opposed to Dream Halls? It's quite reasonable in that frame.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Originally Posted by
mchainmail
As opposed to Dream Halls? It's quite reasonable in that frame.
That's true. I forgot that bad deck is still being played.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
andrew77
They don't need inside info. SCG can sell anything because they have a propaganda machine named Evan Erwin. All they need to do is get Evan to start freaking out claiming this will be the best card ever and all the fools who listen to him and thought warren instigator was good etc etc will buy it.
Warren Instigator IS good.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Also, SCG tends to set their prices a LITTLE high, but they respond to supply and demand. If the butcher sits at $20, it is not because they're pricing him $10+ too high, it is because people are buying him at $20. That is people's fault, not SCGs. Man, the irritation with a capitalist company that does go out of their way now and again to help MTG is just odd.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Karakas is 50$ now, and I thought it was already crazily expensive when I bought them for 20$ at GP Madrid. I think I should be happy, but I'm not. It's outrageous how pricy my cards have become in such a short period of time.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
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Originally Posted by
DrJones
Karakas is 50$ now, and I thought it was already crazily expensive when I bought them for 20$ at GP Madrid. I think I should be happy, but I'm not. It's outrageous how pricy my cards have become in such a short period of time.
Where are you getting your prices? They're $30 on SCG for English, $25 for Italian.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrsthethird
Warren Instigator IS good.
Maybe you have a more vivd imagination than I do, but I don't see how it's possible to use warren instigator effectively outside of a goblins deck.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
So it seems I've picked a bad time to get into Legacy. I'll wait to see if the cards go back to their previous sane prices before spending any cash, and if they don't and continue to rise? then I peace out, I still haven't bought anything.
I will never pay $200 for a playset of an uncommon - FoW.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kariido
So it seems I've picked a bad time to get into Legacy. I'll wait to see if the cards go back to their previous sane prices before spending any cash, and if they don't and continue to rise? then I peace out, I still haven't bought anything.
I will never pay $200 for a playset of an uncommon - FoW.
Define uncommon, because I think it's been almost a decade that FoW is not uncommon.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
caiomarcos
Define uncommon, because I think it's been almost a decade that FoW is not uncommon.
It was printed as an "Uncommon".
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kariido
It was printed as an "Uncommon".
Theoretically it is an uncommon, but you can't expect to pay the same that you pay for Bestial Menace. It was printed as an uncommon when? 1994? 1995? In a very small print run comparing to today...
Sinkhole was COMMON and nobody ever complained about having to pay US$20,00 for it during the last 10 years.
It doesn't matter if it was uncommon, common or rare when it was printed. The problem is to have to pay US$200,00 in whatever playset you want to play. It is rare now, but no matter how rare, it shouldn't be costing so much.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pi4meterftw
Maybe you have a more vivd imagination than I do, but I don't see how it's possible to use warren instigator effectively outside of a goblins deck.
According to your logic, all of these cards suck:
Ad Nauseum (ineffective if your deck contains many 3+ cc cards)
Goblin Lackey (also ineffective outside of Goblins)
Force of Will (ineffective if you run 10 blue cards)
Progenitus (ineffective if you can't cheat it into play)
Squire (ineffective if you have no white mana sources in your deck)
etc.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrsthethird
According to your logic, all of these cards suck:
Ad Nauseum (ineffective if your deck contains many 3+ cc cards)
Goblin Lackey (also ineffective outside of Goblins)
Force of Will (ineffective if you run 10 blue cards)
Progenitus (ineffective if you can't cheat it into play)
Squire (ineffective if you have no white mana sources in your deck)
etc.
But the cards you listed are actually used in the decks you listed where Warren Instigator is not. If you look at the last 40 lists on deckcheck Goblin Lackey averages 4 per deck where instigator is at .8 per deck.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
caiomarcos
Theoretically it is an uncommon, but you can't expect to pay the same that you pay for
Bestial Menace. It was printed as an uncommon when? 1994? 1995? In a very small print run comparing to today...
Sinkhole was COMMON and nobody ever complained about having to pay US$20,00 for it during the last 10 years.
It doesn't matter if it was uncommon, common or rare when it was printed. The problem is to have to pay US$200,00 in whatever playset you want to play. It is rare now, but no matter how rare, it shouldn't be costing so much.
True. WotC should admit to this as a flaw in their current design path and work to avert disaster. As of right now MtG has an increasingly high buy-in point, especially in regards to the Eternal formats, and instead of addressing the issue they've chosen to knowingly turn a blind eye to the subject matter as if it's inconsequential to the long-term longevity of the game.
WotC is a business and can conduct itself in a manner that is both profitable and provide it's player base with what they need in order to play the game. Their first and primary market are the gamers, not the collectors. Now that's not to say that they should screw over any collectors but they can reach a reasonable compromise between the two if they muster up the initiative and courage to do so.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TooCloseToTheSun
But the cards you listed are actually used in the decks you listed where
Warren Instigator is not. If you look at the last 40 lists on deckcheck
Goblin Lackey averages 4 per deck where instigator is at .8 per deck.
That doesn't mean it's not good, it's just not always good.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TooCloseToTheSun
But the cards you listed are actually used in the decks you listed where
Warren Instigator is not. If you look at the last 40 lists on deckcheck
Goblin Lackey averages 4 per deck where instigator is at .8 per deck.
The first question that springs to mind is are those figures only since Instigator was created? There must be plenty of decks on deckcheck from before Warren Instigator was even created.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrsthethird
According to your logic, all of these cards suck:
Ad Nauseum (ineffective if your deck contains many 3+ cc cards)
Goblin Lackey (also ineffective outside of Goblins)
Force of Will (ineffective if you run 10 blue cards)
Progenitus (ineffective if you can't cheat it into play)
Squire (ineffective if you have no white mana sources in your deck)
etc.
Wow, so you assume I'm using that retarded logic? I was assuming something so blatantly obvious I didn't think it worth mentioning: Goblins is no longer a top deck.
But yeah, I should also mention "according to that logic" arguments are retarded. You have no reason to expect my logic can be extrapolated as linearly as you please. I see this sort of argument all the time on here, but I simply let it slide usually. But this time I thought I'd point it out. I only made a comment about warren instigator. How were you able to deduce what "my logic" is?
As if it weren't enough that you assume I'm making a retarded argument, and then assume I'll fall for your straw man argument, (which only even seems narrowly related) you make it clear that you believe I'm wrong about the viability of Goblins by attempting to refute my point. This means either you think I'm mistaken about how legacy works, or that I'm flat out lying. Obviously, the latter is a rather uncivil point of view to hold about what my goal is in posting here. The former isn't entirely uncivil, but I think it's pretty lopsided to say that I don't know what I'm doing. In fact, one thing is for certain: I wouldn't be making claims if I didn't know at least a moderate amount about how this game works currently.
But I don't get it, I'm assuming you're smart enough to realize there was a nonretarded way to interpret my argument. I also don't think you were literally convinced I would fall for your strawman extrapolation "argument." But I am putting you below the threshold of what it takes to not make the post you did, because empirical evidence is pretty overriding in this respect. But what's the deal? Was this a hail Mary move because you knew warren instigator was actually bad but didn't feel like admitting it? (And it doesn't even make every Goblins list, when Goblins is already a not so great archetype.)
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pi4meterftw
Wow, so you assume I'm using that retarded logic? I was assuming something so blatantly obvious I didn't think it worth mentioning: Goblins is no longer a top deck.
What does that have to do with anything? That doesn't impact how good he is.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrsthethird
What does that have to do with anything? That doesn't impact how good he is.
What ridiculous definition of good are you using? If X is good in a bad deck, who the fuck cares? And who would call X good?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrsthethird
That doesn't mean it's not good, it's just not always good.
No, if a card doesn't even average a one of in the only deck it could see play in it is not good. (Based on a definition of good, where a card sees play in this format, not some magical fairy land where cards are good based on potential.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MMogg
The first question that springs to mind is are those figures only since Instigator was created? There must be plenty of decks on deckcheck from before Warren Instigator was even created.
The last forty lists were all after Instigator was printed.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
What does Warren Instigator have to do with rising cardboard prices?
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pi4meterftw
What ridiculous definition of good are you using? If X is good in a bad deck, who the fuck cares? And who would call X good?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TooCloseToTheSun
No, if a card doesn't even average a one of in the only deck it could see play in it is not good. (Based on a definition of good were a card sees play in this format, not some magical fairy land were cards are good based on potential.)
Go read the Goblins thread. Goblins is not a bad deck. It won a 5K and is still a DTW.
Instigator is not good in every matchup, which is why it's not in every deck. It sucks against Zoo, which hurts it.
So maybe I should have said, "Warren Instigator is conditionally good, and certainly not bad, there are sometimes better options."
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
OMG anyone've seen Sylvan Librayi's price??
