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Saying that you want a card to do X but there are no good cards that do it is saying you should not run card X.
This is part of why GSZ sucks in this deck. All of the utility guys you're grabbing just aren't very good, with Deranged Hermit only being the worst offender. But Kitchen Finks is hardly crazy lifegain. Ooze is a decent card but costs a shitton of mana for what he does. Wickerbough Elder is a fucking Desert Twister if you're Zenithing.
So the guy that's running Ooze and Elder in a wishboard is now complaining that they cost too much with Zenith? Are you even trying to do anything productive here or just arguing for the sake of arguing? At this point you just look like you're waiting for someone to respond so you can make a rebuttal, and this isn't the only thread you're pulling this shit in.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Ok, so what can you Zenith for that leaves your opponent 2 turns of life, since Deranged Hermit isn't good?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
It's like having other 5 Grave Titans in the deck that you can tutor up to seal the deal since the focus of the deck IS to empty your opponents hand AND board then win with a bomb they can't answer.
I agree that Kitchen Finks isn't "crazy life gain" but at least id DOES something, helping you a lot in the Aggro MUs like UR Delver, Burn, Zoo Sligh and the like.
Since you can't "Destroy Target Permanent" with GSZ like you can with Desert Twister, you need something to deal with random artifact and enchantments and having 3 Deeds, 3 Pulse AND 5 Naturalize on legs has never been a problem for me.
There are a couple of better cards for the purpose (Harmonic Sliver and Qasali Pridemage) but they require another colour.
Also if you don't have 4-5 mana with this deck you're mana screwed, playing 4 Explorers and 22 lands, so saying that Ooze is bad because it requires mana, is like saying that FoW is bad because it requires blue cards.
Sure, they need specific conditions to be good (2+ untapped green mana/a bunch of blue cards to pitch), but they ARE good.
I may be missing something but other than Knight of the Reliquary and Progenitus, what are the guys "good on their own" that you can Zenith for?
Qasali Pridemage?
Noble Hierarch?
Gaddock Teeg?
Sylvan Safekeeper?
Scryb Ranger?
They're all NICE but hardly ever good on their own, they require to fit a strategy or they're hardly ever good.
Scryb Ranger wasn't even a card before Vendilion Clique gained popularity MD, for example, Noble Hierach is the best mana dork available, but far from game breaking/winning, same goes for the other green dudes that see play.
Each of them has flaws and is somewhat vanilla, but together they're good!
Just like Liliana and Pernicious, together with Hermit or Ooze.
Hi,
I'm thinking about getting into legacy and looking for a deck to start with. This deck caught my interest, particularly straight GB-version, because manabase needs only four duals. But is GB-version still viable in todays metagame, or is it GBW-version that rocks? And if GB-version still kicks some ass, have there been any major changes to first posts list for example?
@Architect -- The best you're going to get on that front is Mystic Enforcer. I've been testing one in my build, and have been favorably impressed so far. It's a little dodgy to get threshold sometimes, but it still has protection from Batterskull. Lategame when you just need a wincon, he's pretty amazing.
For what it's worth, I agree with IBA regarding Hermit. I tried him a few times and he just never did it for me.
I will point out something that I just thought of regarding the Zenith debate. These decks are like machines, all of them. No matter the subarchetype that you're working with, they all are made up of more interactions and synergies than most legacy decks can boast. While some Zenith targets, like Finks, let's say, aren't exactly the most impressive things around, they're serving a number of functions for our deck besides that which they are in the deck for. As I stated before, in my version this comes primarily for Phyrexian Arena. A Birthing Pod version might see Finks as a way of gaining card advantage off of a "free" pod activation, alongside it's "reason" of being good vs burn and aggro. Sure, a lot of Zenith targets might not be good in a vacuum, but we aren't considering them in a vacuum. We're considering them inside a highly synergistic pile of cards, many of which are jank that happen to work well enough together to be formidable.
The guy that played/designed that list, has updated it like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Roottori
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Deranged Hermit
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Grave Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Skeletal Scrying
Sideboard
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Extirpate
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Damnation
4 Mindbreak Trap
Only some minor changes, tho.
Allright, thank you. I'll do some testing online and see if I like the deck.
I've been playing around with dropping White in favor of Red lately to try and improve the RUG Tempo matchup, and so far it looks pretty promising. I'm actually not that interested in Broodmate or P. Fire. Broodmate takes forever to come online, and by the time he does he's usually outclassed by Knight or even Goyf, and Groves just felt like they diluted the manabase too much, and there's no reliable way to grab them. What has seemed good so far at least, are:
Bloodbraid Elf
Arc Trail
Forked Bolt
Bloodbraid here functions a lot like Countryside Crusher in Aggro Loam. The 3/2 haste is mediocre, but immediately getting you to your next business spell can be priceless. In my GBW build I felt like I got flooded a lot, and burning through 2-3 lands into anything is really nice in a deck without any kind of draw engine. Worst case I hit GSZ, in which case I either get Arbor or just send it to the bottom. Her high cmc also works to counteract the small body, since you can Deed away almost anything that would get in her way. Late in the game she can be incredible with Stronghold as well.
Arc Trail and Forked Bolt seem janky, but the more I play with them, the more value I'm seeing. The most important creatures in Legacy right now are Delver, Mom, Hierarch, Clique, SFM, and KotR. Obviously neither is solving the KotR issue, but against all the others these are amazing. They also make the Explorer plan way more consistent than just Therapy, Tower, and Nightmare, and you can always toss any leftover damage at your opponent.
I think the biggest case against Red is that you lose a lot of good anti-combo hate in dropping White, but even with a tutor package and multiple pieces of hate, the percentages on the combo matchup are still pretty terrible, so it may very well be worth having Red in the board to really nail down everything else. If I can find a build that consistently has a good matchup against Maverick, RUG, and UW, I'll be perfectly content to shake hands and grab a coffee with any combo players I come across.
Oh and full disclaimer, I've only run about 3 games against RUG Tempo, 1 against UW, and 1 against GWr Maverick, so when I say results are promising, it's still an extremely small sample size. I just wanted to throw some ideas out there in case anyone is still messing with a GBr build.
On the topic of red, I splashed it in a GBW build for the new Huntmaster and so far I've liked him. Plays like a mix between Finks and Wolfmaster.
Richard: here's a potentially stupid idea, but have you actually tried Big Country(side Crusher)? Considering our Veterans alongside the usual drawn lands, we usually reach a point where extraneous duals and fetches are just that. Countryside would guarantee that we are drawing business every turn. It's not necessarily the greatest idea, but it's something that you might want to test anyway.
@TheArchitect: You are going about it wrong. It's not about "Find a creature that does what Hermit Druid is intended to do but better". I would cut like 6 creatures that I consider sub-par (Hermit, a Witness, the Finks, an Ooze, the Wall, and a Thrun from the original list) and replace them with more powerful 4 and 5 drops. Then who cares if one gets Plowed, because the second one won't be.
The idea crossed my mind, but there are several reasons why I don't think he'll work here. I think one of the main reasons why Loam has fallen out of the spotlight recently is that the current meta just oozes StPs, and Crusher always has that one vulnerable turn before he activates. Second, the double red seems a bit trickier to hit, I'm sure you could with some tuning, but you'll probably lose reliability somewhere else. Also, he sends lands to the yard, and Loam is basically built around a graveyard full of lands, whereas we don't have a good way to get them back. Finally, the difference between 21/22 lands and 26/27 is huge. Loam really relies on Crusher (and Bob) to draw any business at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
One thing that speaks for Hermit that hasn't been mentioned is his synergy. Hermit gives a ton of fodder for Cabal Therapies and is nuts with Recurring Nightmare. Not sure how good he is, but is certainly not as some people make him.
On the Red splash:
Huntmaster of the Fells is imo a better card than Bloodbraid Elf. 90% of the time it does more than you would expect at first glance. I currently play 3 Huntmaster (were 4 but in a small Gauntlet I was reminded that Punishing Maverick is a part of the Meta so I went down to 3).
Before I would play Forked Bolt I would just play good old Lightning Bolt. Odds for a 2 for 1 with Forked Bolt are slim and Lightning Bolt gets Jaces down to 0 instead of 1 plus being an Instant and dealing 1 more damage.
I'm assuming your red splash eliminates your StP. Are you finding that lightning bolt is cutting it or are you using something in addition to lightning bolt?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
My removal stup is currently 4 Punishing Fire, 2 Innocent Blood, 1 Pulse, 3 Deed in the MD and 2 Lightning Bolt, 1-2 Damnation, 1-2 Diabolic Edict in the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by guelahpapyrus
Jace is definitely a valid concern. I'm not 100% sold on Forked Bolt or Arc Trail over Bolt, but one thing I do like is how they both make the Explorer plan a lot more consistent. I was trying to fit some Innocent Bloods into the GBW list, and originally carried them over, but soon realized I didn't need them anymore with Arc/Forked. The bonus there is that they both have a basic functionality that won't change, where Innocent Blood can be dead or sub-optimal in a lot of situations. Right now I run the following split:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
3 Arc Trail
3 Forked Bolt
3 Pulse
3 Deed
Absolutely not married to that configuration, but I like to test with 3-ofs so I can get a feel for how useful things are and when.
I think Huntmaster looks pretty good on paper too, but I think serves a fundamentally different role than BBE. He's more of a choke up the board utility guy, whereas BBE provides some sorely needed card advantage.
Has anyone brewed up a GBr list with Huntmaster and such cards? Seems like it should be good with Master of the Wild and Garruk Relentless as well as just being decent in creature matchups. Got to find a way to beat those Jaces!
You're right, there are multiple threads in which I am trying to dispel terrible ideas. I'm particularly frustrated by people playing non-blue decks that show potential that then squandor it by building badly and relying on luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
1) It's a turn faster to race Ooze online with Wish than with GSZ. Turn 2 Wish, turn 3 Finks/Ooze, versus turn 4 Finks or turn 3 Ooze/Turn 4 Activate with GSZ under normal conditions.
2) Living Wish gives you access to Bojuka Bog and Maze of Ith which help run down graveyard/aggressive decks in the early game before those are the optimal Wish targets, in addition to generally giving you more flexibility.
3) Wish doesn't end up with you drawing those cards in situations where they're vanilla beats.
4) I mean also it's not a dead card off of Bloodbraid Elf. I mean this should be a no-brainer.
Nothing. There is no Zenithable Grave Titan that doesn't cost a fuckton of mana. I mean if you want to pay eight mana there's Avenger of Zendikar.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiaozy
I mean this is one of the long list of reasons you should just play Living Wish. You can always grab a Grave Titan with it when you want, or if you think they have StP you can grab something that dodges it like Thrun or Gigapede. The entire question of what's better to get with GSZ is irrelevant because the point is that GSZ isn't good in the deck. Or at least it's clunky and worse than a perfectly viable alternative.
I mean first of all GSZ is in Maverick to do two things primarily;Quote:
I may be missing something but other than Knight of the Reliquary and Progenitus, what are the guys "good on their own" that you can Zenith for?
Qasali Pridemage?
Noble Hierarch?
Gaddock Teeg?
Sylvan Safekeeper?
Scryb Ranger?
They're all NICE but hardly ever good on their own, they require to fit a strategy or they're hardly ever good.
Scryb Ranger wasn't even a card before Vendilion Clique gained popularity MD, for example, Noble Hierach is the best mana dork available, but far from game breaking/winning, same goes for the other green dudes that see play.
Each of them has flaws and is somewhat vanilla, but together they're good!
Just like Liliana and Pernicious, together with Hermit or Ooze.
1) Be a turn 1 mana accelerant
2) Be KotR 5-8
Dryad Arbor is terrible in a Deed-based deck and you can't run KotR. You're stuck running green answer cards, which Maverick does to some extent, but with the support structure in place so that these cards can actually be threatening which Nic Fit lacks. And even then Maverick runs a smaller toolbox of otherwise mediocre creatures than I've seen in most lists in this thread.
Just started playing this deck and having a blast with it - just thought I'd get that out of the way.
I'm not trying to engage in any form of polemic, my question is simply this (I play a GBw version for swords and rector) - if one were to cut GSZ and the wonky creatures that go along with it, it appears you're now left with a whole ton of space in the deck to toy around with. What gets jammed in there?
Redundancy? Bigger toys (heh)?
Supposing we all agree on the premise of:
3 deeds
3 forms of spot removal/reach (swords, bolt, arc trail, etc)
2/3 pulses
4 veteran explorers
4 cabal therapy
and 21 land it seems like this deck is more customizable then a doomsday shell.
If we go for redundancy in hand disruption (hymn, seize, IoK, etc) we gain an advantage on combo and lose an edge on the aggro race whereas if we run out innocent bloods and more removal like the old standstill decks we're even colder to combo.
I'm just thinking out loud here, but perhaps someone might chime in and we can get this 'forum' chugging along.
Here is my list for reference:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Wickerbough Elder
2 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Savannah
2 Swamp
2 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Garruk Relentless
1 Grave Titan
1 Wall of Blossoms
1 Academy Rector
1 Sun Titan
SB - for a different discussion.
Well, for instance, if you cut the GSZs for Wishes you would immediately clear up 9 spaces and turn Dryad Arbor into a more resilient land. You could run the next two Tops, the fourth StP, 4 Hymn and have two slots left over; I would recommend the fourth Deed and another Witness.
Alternately you could drop the playset of Tops for Wall of Blossoms, drop Hymn for Black Cat and focus a bit on Recurring Nightmare and other creature tricks.
Do you actually get a lot of use out of Liliana in this deck?
Liliana is 70% of the reason I play the deck. Sun Titan, Lili, and Deed with the recurring nightmare make for some of the most bonkers plays I've experienced in magic.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
I'm always willing to toss something in the bin, or kill something bothering me. She is *rarely* an expensive edict.
Its kind of like cheating. Also, the one reason I enjoy GSZ for now is with Lili out forcing people to discard on a stalled board, ripping the GSZ is never a 'dead' draw. However, this argument does not either make stronger or weaker the argument towards running wishes instead.
However, considering what you had said, I'd LOVE to be able to run the fourth deed, and the fourth sword - But I've found hymn to be kind of 'meh' these days... I know.. I know.. I'm sorry I said it but against the decks it matters against I'd almost always prefer to just hit em with a thoughtseize and take what I want. There's nothing worse than seeing the look of relief in an opponents face when your hymn hits something pointless. But there's also nothing better than seeing the look in their eyes when it hits key card x and y. I guess that's why targeted duresses work for me, backed up with lili its just ridiculous.
I might go up to 3 Lili's and cut something.
If you use Living Wish, you could easily add Dark Depths combo in there. Here's what I'm playing today. I'll post more later.
// Lands
4 [B] Bayou
3 [UNH] Forest
4 [UNH] Swamp
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
3 [CS] Dark Depths
2 [UL] Treetop Village
// Creatures
3 [WL] Veteran Explorer
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [ZEN] Vampire Hexmage
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
// Spells
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
3 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
4 [JU] Living Wish
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WL] Veteran Explorer
SB: 1 [CS] Dark Depths
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 1 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 [ZEN] Vampire Hexmage
SB: 1 [DK] Maze of Ith
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
Turn 2 Wish, turn 3 Ooze sounds like a gameplan that will never win anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
One of the things about Wish versus GSZ is you're choosing vulnerability to Spell Snare or vulnerability to Daze.
Has anyone justified not running Stoneforge Mystic in the white versions?
By the way, are there any discard outlets besides Therapy that don't suck? Sadistic Hypnotist is the best I can come up with, and that's not impressive. Recurring Nightmare is slow and you can't really set it up or afford to run bullets for it. Abyssal Gakekeeper would be insane if you had more reliable sacrifice outlets.
The question I asked myself when I was splashing white was, 'does the deck need a SFM'. I thought - there is nothing in the deck that can be snared yet (assuming you're GSZ'ing for certain things) and blanking all of the hate people have for the card seems nice. I did try and test the deck with SFM and I found that it allowed for my opponent to interact all too well with me slamming giant monsters into their faces.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
On that note, I was doing some brainstorming and came up with a list that relies much less on smashing huge monsters into faces, and much more and dominating peoples lives with planeswalkers and hand disruption.
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Relentless
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Academy Rector
2 Sun Titan
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Plains
Might be something worth considering - gonna try and run it through the gauntlet tonight.
I ran SFM in my GBW version. Really strong against Maverick and UW, not great against RUG Tempo. It really gave their Snares and Stifles a ton of value, and just overall was too slow. I don't think it's necessarily a bad option at all, but it depends on what kind of meta you expect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
Oh, one last note on Deranged Hermit; you should probably be running Treetop Village anyway as an answer to Jace (maybe Stirring Wildwood if you're running white), so if anything I'd rather run Primeval Titan in that slot. If they StP it you gain a lot more than 1 life; it won't be taken care of by red spells or Dismember or Smother; and even a board clearer like, you know, another deck with Deed doesn't take care of your double Treetops (or Treetop + Stronghold or whatever, or Wolfrun if you're in red.)
If Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull is too slow, then Kitchen Finks is way too slow (since they are basically the same speed).
Which cards are actually worth a wishboard slot?
Some sort of Wickerbough Elder type card
Shriekmaw
Grave Titan
Scavenging Ooze/Bokuka Bog
Thrashing Wumpus
Really, I look at all these cards, and then I look at Tarmogoyf + Knight of the Reliquary + Stoneforge Mystic, and I wonder why I'm not playing those cards instead.
What's the current feeling on Punishing Fire/Grove in this deck? I saw a version that won a Magic League with it. Seems pretty interesting.
Now there we go, this actually sounds like a good alternative to deranged hermit. It does every thing hermit druid was trying to do although it takes up a few more slots in your deck (lands), it might be well worth it AND the lands can be useful in their own. I will have to give this a try.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Right now I am just running primal hunters, but I think walker heavy might be the way to go. They give you great card advantage, are hard to deal with for most decks and win the game for you in the grindy match ups. EDIT: I like chikenboks last list he posted as it goes in this direction.
I am still not sold on wishes, but I dont think they are a bad idea by means either.
I mean I almost take it as a premise at this point that any serious control deck has to be planeswalker-based to a very large extent. It's a really retarded card type that just gives way too much value in a gameplan that wants to see multiple turns for you to ignore.
Darkblast is playable, at least, as a sac-outlet- hitting quite a few important creatures in the format- Clique, Delver, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
I tried Stoneforge Mystic for a while and I had the same problem with it that I have with Ooze. It just gets killed. Everyone is ready to kill 2-drops. If you want Batterskull I think you would be better off playing Batterskull without Stoneforge, it saves deck space and there is no way that a Sword of any kind would ever be good in this.
Do you have list? I think this might be an answer to U/W Stoneforge while as well improving some other creature matchups. However, not sure Combo gets any better.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
What about UBG list, that was mentioned around the time MM was banned? Is that a solid choice for the current meta or is it too fragile against Stoneblade and Maverick?
I like Jace TMS with Deed and Brainstorm is quite nice (the amount of chaff we draw sometimes is just brutal). Besides, Progenitus is that big finisher of choice.. the bad thing is that it comes with more dead cards (4x Natural Order, 4x Green Sun's Zenith seems awkward at least).
I played this version with minor changes to a 4-1 at a local, my loss was to Merfolk, which was pretty weird, since it should be a decent MU. Won vs Mono W Equipment, Mono W Lifegain, Reanimator and another Merfolk player.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorpT
Fires was pretty good since it allowed me to easily dominate the board. 3 Pulse MD also felt really good.
Next thing I want to try ist Huntmaster of the Fells as soon as he arrives via mail.
Also, what's the opinion on Primeval Titan in this build? Would allow to grab missing Groves. I would also try to squeeze in a Wolf Run in that case, since it turns any random dude into a clock even if your Titan got sworded.
This is the one I saw that intrigued me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoyrm
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=55208
That's basically what I was thinking. I saw people complaining about Delver tempo and Fires seems to be a very goof answer for that. Huntmaster also seems like a very good option I was considering.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp2293
New list after the gauntlet - its really good. The deck needs top but hates multiples, I think 2 is the right number for now.
//Stuff that makes my opponents upset
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy
//Stuff that wins the games
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Sun Titan
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Scavenging Ooze
//Stuff that helps me play the stuff that wins the games
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Academy Rector
2 Eternal Witness
2 Sensei's Divining Top
//Land stuff
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Plains
The only thing I'm really unhappy with is, now that I cut the GSZ, snare has legal targets.
Sigh.. Back to testing.
Manlands are actually a pretty good suggestion. Paired with Liliana, they can be quite deadly. Having a couple Treetops or Wildwoods also adds another dimension to playing Primeval Titan, it might even be better than Grave Titan.