[DTB] Blade Control

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Originally Posted by matunos

Will I keep an opening hand with a fetch, a dual and a brainstorm? In an unknown matchup, probably. But as I've said, once I know you have Stifle, I'm going to be more judicious about cracking my fetches instead of just going for a blind Brainstorm+fetch while you have blue mana open (unless I don't care so much about losing the fetch), and if my fetches are less reliable, I want to be relying on my duals even less.

But you have to tap it at some point, or else you're slowing your own game down, which is to my advantage. Meanwhile I also have manlands (I play 4 Mishra's) to put my own early pressure on you if needs be (I don't usually like swinging in with Mishra's as I want them more for defense and mana, but if I sense an opening and can afford the possible mana loss, I'll take a bite). Plus, I will have more real counters pre- and post-board than you do, to fend you off as well as protect my own guys from such antics.

All of this being said, RaNDoMxGeSTuReS may want to consider some mana acceleration (maybe in place of Jace?), since landing an early Batterskull is almost mandatory to win.

(*) The lack of cheap 1-2 drop threats makes me think that calling this a tempo strategy is inaccurate. Cheating out a Batterskull is a glorious thing, but what it is not is good tempo: it takes 3 turns minimum from casting SFM to untap with a Batterskull, during which you need to be able to protect the SFM, cheat out the skull, and then protect the germ, so you're limited in what you can bring out in those intervening turns, especially if you're trying to do all of this early on. Batterskull wins because he grinds well. Real tempo would have already landed 4-5 cheap beaters in that time (Delver has its namesake, plus Goyfs; Zoo has Goyf, Nacatl, Kird Ape, KotR for the 3-drop), smaller individually, perhaps (except for KotR after they get tapping), but capable of more damage to the head sooner. I think I'd call the list we're discussing aggro-control, but not really tempo. I don't want to argue semantics too much, but I don't think getting a threat out faster than the mainstream list necessarily makes it better tempo.

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I've heard somewhere that it is acceptable for 1 Ponder and 1 land hands but not Brainstorm.

I agree that making it slightly faster isn't really tempo.

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Originally Posted by aznepyon7

I've heard somewhere that it is acceptable for 1 Ponder and 1 land hands but not Brainstorm.

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Ponder offers you the opportunity to shuffle without needing a fetch. With Brainstorm, you want a fetch for that shuffle option.

However, Stoneblade doesn't play Ponders, and even if it did, I would probably not keep a hand with only one land and a Ponder, because missing an early land drop can be devastating, and even with the free shuffle you're still hoping to top-deck a land in two draws. Too risky for my taste.

If I don't see at least two color-producing lands (or fetches) in my opening hand, I almost invariably mull.

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Originally Posted by matunos

(*) The lack of cheap 1-2 drop threats makes me think that calling this a tempo strategy is inaccurate. Cheating out a Batterskull is a glorious thing, but what it is not is good tempo: it takes 3 turns minimum from casting SFM to untap with a Batterskull, during which you need to be able to protect the SFM, cheat out the skull, and then protect the germ, so you're limited in what you can bring out in those intervening turns, especially if you're trying to do all of this early on. Batterskull wins because he grinds well. Real tempo would have already landed 4-5 cheap beaters in that time (Delver has its namesake, plus Goyfs; Zoo has Goyf, Nacatl, Kird Ape, KotR for the 3-drop), smaller individually, perhaps (except for KotR after they get tapping), but capable of more damage to the head sooner. I think I'd call the list we're discussing aggro-control, but not really tempo. I don't want to argue semantics too much, but I don't think getting a threat out faster than the mainstream list necessarily makes it better tempo.

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I agree, just because there are stifles and dazes doesn't make that a tempo build and vialing out a batterskull isn't really a tempo play. If you want to it be more tempo oriented I guess you'll have to add delver and cut Jace or something but I don't really see that being a great game plan but hey, if it works for you keep doing it then. Don't let us tell you otherwise.

On another note, I don't have issues waiting till I have counter backup to drop a SFM or Jace, or wait for my opp to run out of gas. I feel like I have plenty of uses for my mana that I can wait till it's safe to drop a wincon. I see it time and time again however (especially under the camera at SCG events) of people playing SFM on turn 2 with no backup and it gets killed, then they lose with equipment still in hand. The way I see it is this is more of a control deck, play it like so.

I've just finished 4th in a 234-people tournament in Paris this weekend, earning 4 Wasteland and 4 Tropical Island :

4 Flooted strand
3 Scalding tarn
1 Arid mesa
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Wasteland

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster mage
1 Vendilion clique
2 Geist of Saint traft
1 Elspeth, knight errant
3 Jace, the mind sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell snare
2 Counterspell
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of feast and famine

Sideboard :
2 Pyroblast
1 Red elemental blast
2 Wrath of god
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
2 Spell pierce
3 Surgical extraction
1 Timely reinforcements
1 Umezama's jitte

Side in/side out vary according to your opponent, his version and if you are on the play or the the draw.

RUG Tempo :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 WoG, 2 EE, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Timely Reinforcement, 1 Jitte
- 4 FoW, 3 Spell Snare, SOFAF, 2 Counterspell, Vendilion/Elsepth/Jace

Stoneblade :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Disenchant
- 3/4 Force of Will, 2/3 Swords to Plowshares

Maverick :
+ 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Disenchant, (Jitte et Spell Pierce is a possibility according to their version)
- 4 FoW, Clique/Spell Snare/Counterspell/Batterskull

Reanimator :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 3 Extraction
- 2 SFM, SOFAF, 2 Bolt, 1 Jace, 1 Elsepth, 1 Spell Snare

ANT :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Extraction
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Jace, 1 Elspeth

Dredge :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 3 Extraction, 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Jitte
- 2 Bolt, 1 Elsepth, Jace, SOFAF, Clique, 3 Spell Snare, 2 Counterspell, 2 Swords to Plowshares

Zoo :
+ 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Timely, 1 Jitte (2 Spell Pierce may be sidable against Big Zoo)
- 4 FoW, Clique/Snare/SOFAF/Counterspell

Any thoughts ?

Congrats on the 4th place finish!

How's your experience with Timely Reinforcemets been? I've thought about trying that myself. Did that replace any alternatives you considered, and if so, why?

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Originally Posted by Shaka1333

I've just finished 4th in a 234-people tournament in Paris this weekend, earning 4 Wasteland and 4 Tropical Island :

RUG Tempo :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 WoG, 2 EE, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Timely Reinforcement, 1 Jitte
- 4 FoW, 3 Spell Snare, SOFAF, 2 Counterspell, Vendilion/Elsepth/Jace

Maverick :
+ 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Disenchant, (Jitte et Spell Pierce is a possibility according to their version)
- 4 FoW, Clique/Spell Snare/Counterspell/Batterskull

Reanimator :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 3 Extraction
- 2 SFM, SOFAF, 2 Bolt, 1 Jace, 1 Elsepth, 1 Spell Snare

ANT :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Extraction
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Jace, 1 Elspeth

Dredge :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 3 Extraction, 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Jitte
- 2 Bolt, 1 Elsepth, Jace, SOFAF, Clique, 3 Spell Snare, 2 Counterspell, 2 Swords to Plowshares

Zoo :
+ 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Timely, 1 Jitte (2 Spell Pierce may be sidable against Big Zoo)
- 4 FoW, Clique/Snare/SOFAF/Counterspell

Any thoughts ?

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Congrats on the finish!

My thoughts:
Why would you take out Spell Snare against RUG Tempo? Especially if you are going 2nd - It stops Goyf, Snapcaster and Fire//Ice (if they play it). I would leave in Spell Snare and keep WOG in the board. Also, I'm not sold on Timely Reinforcements - at best, you are buying yourself some chump blockers against Goyf and Thresed Mongoose and soldier tokens don't fly to block Delver.

Maverick - I would definitely bring in Jitte. Against what builds would you bring in Spell Pierce? Against Choke?

Reanimator - I would leave in all 3 Spell Snare, as most of their reanimation spells are 2 cc (Animate Dead & Exhume) - From you list, I would go +1 Spell Snare, +1 Jace (just for the bounce and to pitch to FOW), - 2 Geist or Counterspell (I'm not sold on counterspell, as you already have 4 FOW, 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Pyro, 1 REB and 3 Spell Snare)

ANT - Why not take out the remaining 2 Jaces for 2 Surgicals? When would you tap out to play Jace? Personally, I've casted Jace against ANT before, but it was a game I already won due to my opponent's poor draws. I would need 5-6 land to play a Jace and against ANT, that's just not practical.

Dredge - Why are you taking out STP and Lightning Bolt? Bolts are good against Pit Imps and Narcomebas and STPs take care of Ichorids and huge Trolls. I would +2 Bolt, +2 STP, -2 Jace, -2 Geist (you seem to really like Geist, I notice you never take him out - not even against Maverick - Geist shines in the mirror and against RUG, but against any kind of deck with 20+ creatures, you should consider taking him out)

Zoo looks good, except I would do -4 FOW, -2 Geist. Against big zoo, what are you bringing the Pierces in against? GSZ, Choke?

Do you miss not having PTE in the sideboard? I'm sure the maindeck Lightning Bolts help, but I would switch the Timely Reinforcement for a PTE or a 2nd Disenchant.

Well, thank you for your comments !

First, i must say that I'm playing Legacy only since one year, not playtesting that often and Legacy being such a diverse format, i'm obviously lacking experience.

I was excepting around 25% of "Burn" decks (RUG Tempo, UR Counterburn, Burn and Zoo) and against these decks i feel like it's the best card i can cast as gaining 6 life is huge and having 3 chumpblockers to game more life and time is also great, without mentioning the possibility to Snapcast the card. You have a better late game against these decks so your main concern is to live long enough to take advantage of that better late game and Timely Reinforcements does exactly that.

I'm not completly sold on Timely Reinforcements though ... a 3rd Bolt in the sideboard might be better.

Against RUG Tempo : In France, nearly nobody plays Snapcaster in RUG. Everybody plays Nimble Mangoose instead and the average number of Fire/Ice is probably 2. So i don't want to have situational cards like Spell Snare that can counter only a few spells. I'm not sure on WoG yet, but having two more outs to Nimble Mangoose (a nightmare for Stoneblade) and a potential blowout seems good enough.

Against Maverick : You are totally right on Jitte. As TKDoko mentioned, Spell Pierce seems good enough on playtests to be playable against Maverick to counter problematic spells like Sylvan Library, Choke, GSZ and Elsepth.

Against Reanimator : You are also right. I didn't know which last cards i had to side out. I blindly chose Spell Snare because i feel like that have so many reanimation spells that the fight should be more on countering their way to put creatures in the GY or around Surgical Extraction. But, it's essential to buy you as much time as possible in the early game so Spell Snare shouldn't be sided out as you noticed. I haven't testing Geist against Reanimator actually so I need more testing to choose between Geist, Jace and Counterspell.

Against ANT : Jace is indeed my worst card after sideboard but i really don't like Extraction. I feel like the only rare cases Extraction will make me win games (extracting away their Cabal Ritual or Infernal Tutor on PiF or make them "discard" a key card in their hand) are less likely than needing a blue card to pitch on FoW and the cases where i have SOFAF untaping effect (basically your best aggro plan) where the Brainstorm of Jace refill your hand into an unbreakable wall of counterspells. I might be wrong though. I'm also considering keeping 1 or 2 more Swords to Plowshares against Xantid Swarm/Dark Confidant but this plan seems like a risky gambit game 2 as the ANT can also be playing Carpet of Flowers or Defense Grid instead of Xantid Swarm...

Against Dredge : I'm really unexperienced in this match up but i feel like with your sideboarding, if i take a Cabal Therapy or Ancient Grudge on Batterskull, i only have 4 1/2 and 4 2/1 left to kill which seems to bit light to say the least ^^;. I'm not a big fan of Bolt and StP here. I know that Bolt can remove Bridges et StP exiles Ichorid, but if Ichorid starts to matter, it means that your opponent is already dredging at least 5 or 6 a turn, and spots removals against "endless" steams of free creatures doesn't seem great... But, on the other hand, you want to but as much time as possible so spot removal might be usefull in the early game ...

Against a bad big Zoo playing GSZ, Choke and Elsepth, Spell Pierces are a reasonable possibility imo.

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Originally Posted by Shaka1333

Well, thank you for your comments !

I'm not completly sold on Timely Reinforcements though ... a 3rd Bolt in the sideboard might be better.

Against RUG Tempo : In France, nearly nobody plays Snapcaster in RUG. Everybody plays Nimble Mangoose instead and the average number of Fire/Ice is probably 2. So i don't want to have situational cards like Spell Snare that can counter only a few spells. I'm not sure on WoG yet, but having two more outs to Nimble Mangoose (a nightmare for Stoneblade) and a potential blowout seems good enough.

Against Reanimator : You are also right. I didn't know which last cards i had to side out. I blindly chose Spell Snare because i feel like that have so many reanimation spells that the fight should be more on countering their way to put creatures in the GY or around Surgical Extraction. But, it's essential to buy you as much time as possible in the early game so Spell Snare shouldn't be sided out as you noticed. I haven't testing Geist against Reanimator actually so I need more testing to choose between Geist, Jace and Counterspell.

Against ANT : Jace is indeed my worst card after sideboard but i really don't like Extraction. I feel like the only rare cases Extraction will make me win games (extracting away their Cabal Ritual or Infernal Tutor on PiF or make them "discard" a key card in their hand) are less likely than needing a blue card to pitch on FoW and the cases where i have SOFAF untaping effect (basically your best aggro plan) where the Brainstorm of Jace refill your hand into an unbreakable wall of counterspells. I might be wrong though. I'm also considering keeping 1 or 2 more Swords to Plowshares against Xantid Swarm/Dark Confidant but this plan seems like a risky gambit game 2 as the ANT can also be playing Carpet of Flowers or Defense Grid instead of Xantid Swarm...

Against Dredge : I'm really unexperienced in this match up but i feel like with your sideboarding, if i take a Cabal Therapy or Ancient Grudge on Batterskull, i only have 4 1/2 and 4 2/1 left to kill which seems to bit light to say the least ^^;. I'm not a big fan of Bolt and StP here. I know that Bolt can remove Bridges et StP exiles Ichorid, but if Ichorid starts to matter, it means that your opponent is already dredging at least 5 or 6 a turn, and spots removals against "endless" steams of free creatures doesn't seem great... But, on the other hand, you want to but as much time as possible so spot removal might be usefull in the early game ...

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You may want to consider PTE over Lightning Bolt - If you are expecting any Nic Fit, Maverick, Tarmogoyfs or Tombstalkers, Lightning Bolt just won't get it done. Also, for decks that are running no basics (RUG, Team America, etc), PTE is better than STP. Finally, the PTE removal is relevant versus Veteran Explorer, Academy Rector, Bridge from Below, etc. (anything you don't want the creature to hit the yard).

Versus RUG Tempo, I'm running Mishra's Factories in my list, so I can always block, pump and exchange with Mongoose (or if I have two factories, pump one to 4/4 and survive vs. Mongoose). I understand your point that Mongoose is hard to kill...

Against Reanimator, let me know what your playtesting shows is the best to take out - Geist, Counterspell or Jace.

Against ANT, ask yourself, when are they hoping to go off? Turn 3? Is Jace really practical? If you hit turn 4 (4 mana in play), are you going to tap out to play Jace? I'm not even sure I would do that with 2 FOW + 2 blue cards in hand. Regarding leaving the STPs in, I understand your point and sometimes I will leave STP in against ANT if I know they have Dark Confidant/Xantid Swarm in the board (I think Confidant is more common, as it doesn't cause ANT to pick up an extra color - if Counterbalance becomes popular, ANT will run green for Krosan Grip, so Swarm will become more common). You are already running 2 Lightning Bolt and Jitte can also be a good sideboard card against ANT - it kills their creatures, gives you life and speeds up your clock. Surgical Extraction can be good to make them 'discard' (as you mention), but it can also force them to shuffle, messing up Brainstorm or Ponder effects. Additionally, after an Ad Nauseam (and you've seen what they've drawn), you can Surgical Extraction, or in response to a Cabal Ritual to remove Threshold or in response to Ill-Gotten Gains. It's just a really nice trick that ANT decks aren't always expecting...

Against Dredge, read the relevant part of this article: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...toneforge.html It basically says to kill Narcomebas and Ichorids, because they really don't have any other creatures with which to generate tokens.

Hi! I'm new into playing this deck, because i've always played aggro decks like Merfolk, burn, and affinity. I recently turned into control (because I had an UB Control deck in standard and I liked it a lot) but I find this deck so much hard to play due to the number of decisions to take.

Maybe it will seem a bit nooby question, but, can someone give me some tips/advices of how should I play this control deck, what decisions I should I take to make my game better and how to optimize my brainstorms?

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Originally Posted by Shaka1333

I've just finished 4th in a 234-people tournament in Paris this weekend, earning 4 Wasteland and 4 Tropical Island :

4 Flooted strand
3 Scalding tarn
1 Arid mesa
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
5 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Wasteland

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster mage
1 Vendilion clique
2 Geist of Saint traft
1 Elspeth, knight errant
3 Jace, the mind sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Swords to plowshares
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell snare
2 Counterspell
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of feast and famine

Sideboard :
2 Pyroblast
1 Red elemental blast
2 Wrath of god
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
2 Spell pierce
3 Surgical extraction
1 Timely reinforcements
1 Umezama's jitte

Side in/side out vary according to your opponent, his version and if you are on the play or the the draw.

RUG Tempo :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 WoG, 2 EE, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Timely Reinforcement, 1 Jitte
- 4 FoW, 3 Spell Snare, SOFAF, 2 Counterspell, Vendilion/Elsepth/Jace

Stoneblade :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Disenchant
- 3/4 Force of Will, 2/3 Swords to Plowshares

Maverick :
+ 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Disenchant, (Jitte et Spell Pierce is a possibility according to their version)
- 4 FoW, Clique/Spell Snare/Counterspell/Batterskull

Reanimator :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 3 Extraction
- 2 SFM, SOFAF, 2 Bolt, 1 Jace, 1 Elsepth, 1 Spell Snare

ANT :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 1 Extraction
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Jace, 1 Elspeth

Dredge :
+ 2 Pyroblast, 1 REB, 2 Spell Pierce, 3 Extraction, 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Jitte
- 2 Bolt, 1 Elsepth, Jace, SOFAF, Clique, 3 Spell Snare, 2 Counterspell, 2 Swords to Plowshares

Zoo :
+ 2 WoG, 2 EE, 1 Timely, 1 Jitte (2 Spell Pierce may be sidable against Big Zoo)
- 4 FoW, Clique/Snare/SOFAF/Counterspell

Any thoughts ?

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That List seems really sweet, but I have some points on it:

1. Did you miss the manlands (not playing them anymore because of too often losing your lands to spot removal? and did you upp the wasteland count to mana-screw your opponent or just to more reliably remove utility lands (second seems better, our deck isn't that good at mana-screwing the opponent without good ol' stifle)?
2. How has Geist performed for you? In which matchups does he shine? Is it really worth to go under 2 Cliques to play him? I would suggest a split of 2/2, but that would increase the count of mana-hungry spells too heavily... I mean, Clique is that good against combo and the mirror, so I really can't imagine our deck without it and 1 seems very situational.
3. Is 9 a good amount of counters? I really find myself wanting at least 10 (I play 11) in the maindeck to have a good preboard-win-percentage against combo and such decks as burn with price of progress, for which you really need the spell snares.

On sideboard:
1. Are pyroblasts that good against combo other than spiral tide? A split of spell pierce and pyroblasts like you play it seems to be the best for me.
2. You sideout batterskull against maverick but leave the mystics in? Are you sure on that? My sideboard strategy against maverick, which is heavily played here in Germany is rather siding out the complete mystic package to blank their artifact removal and loading up on mass removal, elspeth (play 1 main and 1 in the board) and so on, but my problem here is: I just can't win the third game in time :(

So, this was my first post on The Source.
Sorry for all my mistakes made, they were not intended.

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Originally Posted by Kanadell~

Hi! I'm new into playing this deck, because i've always played aggro decks like Merfolk, burn, and affinity. I recently turned into control (because I had an UB Control deck in standard and I liked it a lot) but I find this deck so much hard to play due to the number of decisions to take.

Maybe it will seem a bit nooby question, but, can someone give me some tips/advices of how should I play this control deck, what decisions I should I take to make my game better and how to optimize my brainstorms?

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To start with, read these articles:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...toneforge.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...hould_Too.html
And you can watch these videos, too: http://www.teamadhd.nl/wp/?p=335 http://www.teamadhd.nl/wp/?p=62

General strategy depends on what you are playing against. If you are playing against Combo, you want a heavy counter hand to counter their combo pieces. Mid-range, a mix of removal and counterspell. Against another control deck, you want to drop a Jace or Geist to gain card/board advantage.

Regarding brainstorm, ideally, you want to be able to use a fetchland to shuffle cards away. For example, brainstorm, put two worthless cards back on top, crack fetch, shuffle and draw a new card during your next draw step. Brainstorm also depends on what you are looking for. Early game, it may be a land, mid game, a Swords to Plowshares, late game a Jace, WOG or Batterskull to finish out the game.

I know PtE is sometimes awesome, actually the best removal in some cases but in other cases it's just awful. "Pathing" a T2 Stoneforge is just so awful as you can die on Jace, Thrun, Elsepth or whatever 4cc bomb the next turn and in general giving a free land against 60 to 75 % of the field ... i just hate that. If you play straight UW, you have no other choice so you play PtE in your sideboard and/or a few main but when you play UWr, Lightning Bolt seems strictly better. I agree that it doesn't kill everything but it still kills around 80% of the played creatures and having the possibility to kill a Jace and finish off your opponent is a nice bonus.

Against ANT, i was thinking playing Jace on Turn 4 before untapping with SOFAF effect but you are probably right, Surgical Extraction is very likely better here.

I know that Mishra's Factory is great against Nimble Mangoose and other small creatures, that's why i was playing straight UW initially with 7 colorless lands but i was mulliganing too much and having some problems to get two blue and white so i deciding to cut some colorless lands. In case of someone is wondering, playing 3 colors with 3 colorless lands is more stable than playing 2 with 7/8 colorless lands thanks to fetch and dual lands mana base.

I decided to play only Wasteland in those 3 colorless lands because Wasteland is simply the best lands in Legacy. It kills problematic lands my Maze of Ith, Grove, man lands etc... and win game by itself every now and then. No other colorless lands is comparable imho. Playing 2 or 4 colorless lands might be the right number though.

Geist have been really amazing in nearly every single game i have been playing. I was very sceptical at first, like nearly everybody i guess, but truth is he won't leave my main deck any time soon. With 6 spot removal, Jace bounce, equipements and counters, it's not that hard to remove blockers. He fasten the clock like no other card can and he is basically good against everything. He is at his worst against heavy creatures decks and fast combos but even against these decks, it can win game sometimes. However, i am missing a bit Vendilion Clique and a 2/2 split is possible but probably a bit too manavore as you noticed.

Concerning the number of counters, it really depends of your metagame and your version. I basically cut a Spell Snare of a Bolt which is reasonable with my Geist version but playing 4 Spell Snare is good too.

Pyroblast is also awesome against any Show and Tell deck, but i prefer a split with Spell Pierce against decks like ANT or Dredge and to increase diversity.

I need a bit more experience against Maverick to be sold on my sideboard but Jitte and SOFAF seem a little better than Batterskull. With Geist your 2 Elsepth as a kill plan may be very good, but without Geist, it must be very hard to win game 3 in time as you said. I'm not sure you should remove SFM package here. "Blanking their artefact removal" is not that great against this deck because their artefact removal is Qasali and it is still a decent creature even if you don't have artefact in your deck anymore, it's not like if they would side in Ancient Grudge or Krosan Grip. SOFAF is also a great answer against Choke, one of our worst nightmare ;).

Anyway MadMaximus, don't worry ! Du sprichst sehr gut englisch ;)

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Originally Posted by Shaka1333

I know PtE is sometimes awesome, actually the best removal in some cases but in other cases it's just awful. "Pathing" a T2 Stoneforge is just so awful as you can die on Jace, Thrun, Elsepth or whatever 4cc bomb the next turn and in general giving a free land against 60 to 75 % of the field ... i just hate that. If you play straight UW, you have no other choice so you play PtE in your sideboard and/or a few main but when you play UWr, Lightning Bolt seems strictly better. I agree that it doesn't kill everything but it still kills around 80% of the played creatures and having the possibility to kill a Jace and finish off your opponent is a nice bonus.

...
I know that Mishra's Factory is great against Nimble Mangoose and other small creatures, that's why i was playing straight UW initially with 7 colorless lands but i was mulliganing too much and having some problems to get two blue and white so i deciding to cut some colorless lands. In case of someone is wondering, playing 3 colors with 3 colorless lands is more stable than playing 2 with 7/8 colorless lands thanks to fetch and dual lands mana base.

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I agree with your decisions here. Bolt is probably better against the majority of the field and the ability to go to the dome is huge - especially if you can snap it back, you could deal a good amount of damage and speed up the game a turn or two.

Good call on your manabase. I agree, in 3 color, it is more important to be consistent than to try to fit man-lands and colored mana together. Your manabase looks solid.

Ok, regarding the additional spot removal I am in the tank right now about it, have tried out 3 lightning bolts in the past, but I dislike my used manabase with manlands, wastelands, volcanics and the mountain. Is the mountain really needed, it acts effectively as another colorless source most of the time.
I am very much settled on wanting to play 6 spot removal pre board in my deck, but the question is: 2 Path to Exile or 2 Lightning Bolt? Path To Exile seems better, because when you play 2 the occasions on which you draw it in the early game seem rather rare and there are a few decks which don't even run basics out there. On the other hand, Lightning Bolt has some other sweet uses, as you mentioned killing a planeswalker or even with snapcaster deal 6 damage and speeding up the clock immensely.
So, is there a consensus on that issue?

I know it's not snappable, but how about an O-Ring, for those hard-to-reach areas?

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Originally Posted by matunos

I know it's not snappable, but how about an O-Ring, for those hard-to-reach areas?

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I am playing UWr right now and probably will keep all the 3 colors 'til the german meta has shifted away largely from what it is right now with many UR Delver decks, Spiral Tide, Maverick and the mirror, mostly.
So, for problematic permanents like choke I have 2 Engineered Explosives in the Sideboard and I love that card, it is superflexible.
It can act as additional mass removal, or "only" spot removal for problematic creatures like delver first turn or mother of runes (important) but also having paid 3 for it, I can hit choke or other permanents which would influence the game state heavily in my opponent's favor.

So, imo, the Explosives are the best solution for UWr. The O-Ring could be interesting for me if I played straight UW, but I am concerned about the mana costs of it, 3 is too much for an additional spot removal, which can only hit one permanent.
In the early game you just can't afford spending 3 mana on removing, let's say a knight, because having tapped out, the opponent would be able to cast anything he wants next turn (assuming you don't have force of will ready, which I would never board out against maverick by the way)

My removal suite is essentially: 4 Sword to Plowshares, 2 Lightning Bolts (main)
2 Path To Exile, 2 Engineered Explosives, 2 Wrath Of God (board)
Pretty much the amount of removal I want to play, but as you see I am not completely sure about the structure.

What are your removal suites?

Hey guys so this is my latest Stoneblade List. I have decided to take out the red splash and trying Geist of Saint Traft. Thoughts?
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snpcaster Mage
2 Vendlion Clique
1 Geist of Saint Traft

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Batterskull

4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Snare
3 Force of Will
2 Preordain
2 Mana Leak
1 Spell Pierce

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Riptide Laboratory
1 Tower of Magistrate
1 Karakas
3 Island
1 Plains


Sideboard:
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
2 Wrath of God
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disenchant
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Force of Will

I have opted for the Surgical over Purify the Grave as it's much better against Dredge and Storm. I'm also finding Wasteland pretty average in this deck and maybe even cut down to 1 but seems good with the Crucible so will keep at 2. Preordain has been amazing for me so far.

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Originally Posted by MadMaximus

(assuming you don't have force of will ready, which I would never board out against maverick by the way)

My removal suite is essentially: 4 Sword to Plowshares, 2 Lightning Bolts (main)
2 Path To Exile, 2 Engineered Explosives, 2 Wrath Of God (board)
Pretty much the amount of removal I want to play, but as you see I am not completely sure about the structure.

What are your removal suites?

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What are you taking out against Maverick? You add 6 cards, what do you remove? I always remove FOW against MAV, just because I don't think we can afford the 2:1.

I run UW and my removal suite is 4 STP, 1 ORing, 1 Jitte (pseudo-removal) main and 3 PTE, 2 WOG, 1 EE side. I also run 2 KGrips (side) and a Trop Island (main), mainly for Batterskulls, but I will bring it in against Maverick for Choke, Sylvan Library and Equipment.

Against Maverick, I'm -4 FOW, -2 Geist (I run 2 main), -1 Jace, -1 SFM, + 8 above listed cards. I don't always bring in the Grips, as mana can be an issue (I only have one Trop Island and if it gets wasted, Grips are worthless, although I'm never going to fetch it until I need to use a Grip - this can become an issue if they have Aven Mindcensor in play). If I don't bring in Grips, I leave a Jace and SFM in the deck.

I'm not sure you should side out Geist against Maverick as they don't have that many 2/2+ creatures and you have a ton of removals after sideboard.
And if they play Punishing Fire and you unfortunately don't draw your Wastelands, Geist is your only threat that can stay alive.

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Originally Posted by Water_Wizard

What are you taking out against Maverick? You add 6 cards, what do you remove? I always remove FOW against MAV, just because I don't think we can afford the 2:1.

I run UW and my removal suite is 4 STP, 1 ORing, 1 Jitte (pseudo-removal) main and 3 PTE, 2 WOG, 1 EE side. I also run 2 KGrips (side) and a Trop Island (main), mainly for Batterskulls, but I will bring it in against Maverick for Choke, Sylvan Library and Equipment.

Against Maverick, I'm -4 FOW, -2 Geist (I run 2 main), -1 Jace, -1 SFM, + 8 above listed cards. I don't always bring in the Grips, as mana can be an issue (I only have one Trop Island and if it gets wasted, Grips are worthless, although I'm never going to fetch it until I need to use a Grip - this can become an issue if they have Aven Mindcensor in play). If I don't bring in Grips, I leave a Jace and SFM in the deck.

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My sideboard strategy against maverick is basically:
- removing the whole stoneforge package
- removing a couple 'o' spell snares
- boarding in 2 path, 1 additional else, 2 wrath of god, 2 engineered explosives, 1 - 3 surgical extraction (depending on their build, mainly for punishing fire, when they have red splash, which is popular)

my problem with that:
I rely heavily on my planeswalkers to close the game and that's pretty slow...
So, I probably will get to game 3, but then I can't close the game, what do you think?
Should I consider boarding the stoneforge package back in after game 2?
Seems reasonable, ain't it?

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Originally Posted by MadMaximus

My sideboard strategy against maverick is basically:
- removing the whole stoneforge package
- removing a couple 'o' spell snares
- boarding in 2 path, 1 additional else, 2 wrath of god, 2 engineered explosives, 1 - 3 surgical extraction (depending on their build, mainly for punishing fire, when they have red splash, which is popular)

my problem with that:
I rely heavily on my planeswalkers to close the game and that's pretty slow...
So, I probably will get to game 3, but then I can't close the game, what do you think?
Should I consider boarding the stoneforge package back in after game 2?
Seems reasonable, ain't it?

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Makes perfect sense. Removing all your artifacts to blank artifact hate is a good idea. However, against Mav, this might not be the highest value play, as their artifact hate is usually Qasali Pridemage and he's pretty useful in other situations. However, against decks like Zoo or RUG, this can be very powerful, as it will usually leave them with 2-3 dead cards, like Ancient Grudge or Krosan Grip.

Removing all my artifacts doesn't work for me, as I have Mishra's Factories, so they always have artifact targets, so I usually just leave in my SFM package.

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Originally Posted by Water_Wizard

Makes perfect sense. Removing all your artifacts to blank artifact hate is a good idea. However, against Mav, this might not be the highest value play, as their artifact hate is usually Qasali Pridemage and he's pretty useful in other situations. However, against decks like Zoo or RUG, this can be very powerful, as it will usually leave them with 2-3 dead cards, like Ancient Grudge or Krosan Grip.

Removing all my artifacts doesn't work for me, as I have Mishra's Factories, so they always have artifact targets, so I usually just leave in my SFM package.

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That was something I didn't have so much on my mind 'til now xD
Anyway, I'll try a different way in the future I think, although the strategy to remove nearly all of my creatures to get the highest value out of wrath of god seems huge against decks like maverick (where you need wrath and elspeth for sure against thrun) or elves.
Problem with wrath of god is, in which matchups will you surely bring it in, I mean, there aren't many decks that overextend and run into it.
Most of the time it's only like dealing with 2 creatures and therefore the spot removal is more important.

So, question to all of you: In which matchups do you side in the wrath of gods?

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Originally Posted by MadMaximus

My sideboard strategy against maverick is basically:
- removing the whole stoneforge package
- removing a couple 'o' spell snares
- boarding in 2 path, 1 additional else, 2 wrath of god, 2 engineered explosives, 1 - 3 surgical extraction (depending on their build, mainly for punishing fire, when they have red splash, which is popular)

my problem with that:
I rely heavily on my planeswalkers to close the game and that's pretty slow...
So, I probably will get to game 3, but then I can't close the game, what do you think?
Should I consider boarding the stoneforge package back in after game 2?
Seems reasonable, ain't it?

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Removing sfm against punishing lists (or anything with that much removal available) seems like a good idea, as keeping Stoneforge alive is tough. However, as you say, the equipment *really* helps in actually winning this game if it sticks (even cast, if you have the removal available to stick around that long). Non-punishing lists are shorter on removal, and it probably depends on what they're boarding in (one could always put them back for game 3).
Post-board matchups of both variants remain on my "things to test" list.

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

Hello all, my teammate Merrin went 5-0 on a (very) small local tournament with UWr Punishing Blade. Basically a UW Stoneblade list that splashes red for Punishing Fire.

Check out his tournament report: clicky.

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Good summary. But there is one thing bugging me:

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By this time Gijs has acquired three Bridge from Below in his graveyard. I think for a while in his draw step and decided to wait for a bit more to see what happens. He replays his Cabal Therapy and some Bridge-triggers went on the stack. I decided that those zombies weren’t allowed to enter the battlefield and used a Punishing Fire to kill my own Vendilion Clique.

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This is not possible, unless I have been playing wrong for quite a while. Can someone back me up, or tell me I am wrong?

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Originally Posted by Artlee

Good summary. But there is one thing bugging me:


This is not possible, unless I have been playing wrong for quite a while. Can someone back me up, or tell me I am wrong?

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"Whenever a nontoken creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield."

That 'if' condition means the Bridge has to still be in the graveyard when the triggers resolve.

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Originally Posted by Water_Wizard

To start with, read these articles:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...toneforge.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...hould_Too.html
And you can watch these videos, too: http://www.teamadhd.nl/wp/?p=335 http://www.teamadhd.nl/wp/?p=62

General strategy depends on what you are playing against. If you are playing against Combo, you want a heavy counter hand to counter their combo pieces. Mid-range, a mix of removal and counterspell. Against another control deck, you want to drop a Jace or Geist to gain card/board advantage.

Regarding brainstorm, ideally, you want to be able to use a fetchland to shuffle cards away. For example, brainstorm, put two worthless cards back on top, crack fetch, shuffle and draw a new card during your next draw step. Brainstorm also depends on what you are looking for. Early game, it may be a land, mid game, a Swords to Plowshares, late game a Jace, WOG or Batterskull to finish out the game.

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Thanks for the response! The SCG posts helped me so much and I'm actually enjoying this deck even more.
One more thing: it's always wrong to tap out playing stoneforge if I have a FoW backup? Or should I wait until I have 3/4/5 lands in play so I can rely on more counters?
I actually play spellstutter sprite but they don't get the job done. It's a bad idea to take them out to put in 2 mana leak?

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

5-0 with UWr Punishing Blade

Hello all, my teammate Merrin went 5-0 on a (very) small local tournament with UWr Punishing Blade. Basically a UW Stoneblade list that splashes red for Punishing Fire.

Check out his tournament report: clicky.

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My thoughts:

- His report seems to indicate he's playing against relatively inexperienced players. For example the Counterburn player misplays his Surgical Extraction (and apparently, that's the only Extraction he faces all day? This is why I've chosen not to go the Leyline route for the Dredge matchups). He comments "I’m quite convinced that a lot of other players would do the same." Now, I'll admit I've made the same mistake with Purify the Grave the first time I played someone with a Punishing Grove combo, but that was the last time I'll make that mistake, and with Punishing Maverick making the charts, I wouldn't count on a lot of other people making the same mistake. A properly-timed Extraction will remove half of the removal from his deck and render six of his lands superfluous (the Groves become less than useful at that point: they're basically providing colorless mana and giving the opponent life for the privilege). Also, his Bant opponent apparently didn't make good use of the KotR/Ith combo (attack with the Knight, use the Maze to untap after combat damage, and then pump), indicating he also was probably not too experienced.

- His mana base looks extremely vulnerable. He's only running 1(!) basic. Against a Wasteland-heave aggro deck his mana base is going to get torn up early, and he won't recover. Aggro decks can usually get away with few/no basics because they apply quick pressure and don't need as much mana. Even this "Punishing Blade" deck needs at least 4.

- Given that he only has 4 red spells main, and all 4 are Punishing Fire, for which he really wants a Grove available, I think his number of red duals/fetches is overkill. I would probably ditch the Plateau, and maybe even one of the Volcanics). I'd probably also trade a couple of the fetches (the Arid Mesas) for more Islands and at least one Plains (especially when running 2 Elspeth's main, which also seems like overkill).

- No Wastelands means no way of dealing with problematic lands from the opponent, such as Maze of Ith, Tower of the Magistrate, opponents' Groves, etc.

- He mentions how the mirror/control matchups tend to hold onto their Wastelands to use on the Grove. That's not surprising; I think that's the right move on their part. A typical Stoneblade deck isn't looking to play mana denial anyway, and he doesn't have anything else worth wasting. They would probably hold onto those Wastelands for a while regardless of if he was playing Punishing/Grove. They can still be tapped for mana in the meantime, though, so I'm not sure how that helps in his development, other than not getting his duals wasted, which is probably a bad move in general for a Stoneblade deck to try to do.

- I find his logic of swapping out Path to Exile for Phyrexian Metamorph to be a little weak given that he's got 3 WoG in the SB which hit Thrun and Geist just fine (not to mention 4 Snapcasters that also can hit Geist on attack), and at best the Metamorph is only one mana less than WoG. If he's really only concerned about problematic legends, Phantasmal Image sounds better at 2cc... at least I could see a justification of that even with the WoG. Neither is likely necessary.

- Overall, without Knight of the Reliquary to fetch Groves (plus a Knight could fetch a 2nd Grove in response to an attempted Extraction), I feel like Punishing/Grove is just a trick here. It's relatively easy to disrupt with a well-timed Extraction/Purify/Wasteland, rendering his Punishing Fires either non-existent or an expensive and slow Shock. Honestly, I don't see a lot of advantage to Punishing/Grove in UWr Stoneblade versus just running 4 Lightning Bolts: the bolts are cheaper, do more damage, and can be snapped back with Snapcaster. Realistically, is he going to be recurring Punishing Fire enough to justify it over (snappable) bolts? Given the various ways Punishing/Grove can be disrupted, I doubt it. Plus, getting rid of the Groves will help is mana base and/or allow some utility lands like Wasteland, Mishra's, Tower of the Magistrate, etc.

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Originally Posted by matunos

"Whenever a nontoken creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield."

That 'if' condition means the Bridge has to still be in the graveyard when the triggers resolve.

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Artlee, you are correct. The Bridge triggers go on the stack and even if the Bridges are removed afterwords, your opponent still gets his/her Zombie tokens. The only way for matunos to remove the Bridges without the creation of Zombie tokens is to Punishing Fire his Clique at the end of his opponents draw step.

For example, your opponent chooses to Dredge during his/her draw step. You see some Bridges and a Cabal Therapy, Dread Return or other sacrifice outlet hit their yard. You Punishing Fire your creature during your opponent's draw step (after priority is passed to you) and the Bridges remove. If you allow your opponent to go this his/her Main 1 and he/she flashbacks Cabal Therapy or Dread Return, the Zombie tokens will be made even if you kill your creature in response or remove the Bridges using a card like Purify the Grave or Surgical Extraction.

For cards like Narcomeba, Ichorid or a Dread Return target, you can Purify/Surgical the creature in response to the trigger because this creature does have to be in the graveyard at the time of resolution to come into play.

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Originally Posted by Kanadell~

Thanks for the response! The SCG posts helped me so much and I'm actually enjoying this deck even more.
One more thing: it's always wrong to tap out playing stoneforge if I have a FoW backup? Or should I wait until I have 3/4/5 lands in play so I can rely on more counters?
I actually play spellstutter sprite but they don't get the job done. It's a bad idea to take them out to put in 2 mana leak?

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Regarding tapping out to play Stoneforge, it totally depends on the match up and board state. Sometimes, I will tap out to play SFM knowing he will die just to get an equipment in hand. Against some decks, it his very hard to keep him alive. For example, against a deck like Zoo, which has 12 'Lightning Bolt' effects, it's hard to keep SFM alive, but you may get lucky, so sometimes it's worth the shot. Also, if I have a 2nd SFM in hand, oftentimes I will run the first out as a sacrificial offering in hopes that the 2nd will survive. Additionally, sometimes I use SFM to fetch Batterskull with the plan of hitting 5 mana and hard casting Batterskull. Against decks like Dredge, which really have no way of killing SFM, it may be a good idea to run him out early (although be aware of Cabal Therapy naming the Equipment your opponent knows you just put into your hand). Sometimes I'll cast turn 2 SFM for a Sword or Jitte, hardcast the Sword/Jitte turn 3 and then try to flash in a Snapcaster EOT to catch an opponent off guard and attack on turn 5. The biggest reason I don't cast SFM is so I can have mana open to counter my opponent's spells. For example, against any combo deck, you want to be very careful when you tap out, because you need mana up to stop them from going off. It's always a fine line between starting a clock (applying pressure) and keeping mana open for counterspells. All I have to say in summary to this long and rambling answer is that there is no right or wrong answer. Giving a particular situation, there is a 'best' answer (the answer most likely to produce a favorable outcome to the game), but this comes with experience and some guesswork based upon your opponent's likely holdings and strategy of attack. For example, I've had Burn opponents not Lightning Bolt SFM because they would rather point that Lightning Bolt at me in hopes of a quick win. A final note, most removal in Legacy is 1cc. Keeping mana open for a Spell Snare doesn't offer much protection for SFM, unless you are trying to stop a SCM from giving a 1cc removal spell flashback.

Regarding Spellstutter Sprite, I've removed them in my deck, replacing them with either Mana Leak or Counterspell. Spellstutter shines against Hive Mind, which isn't too popular right now (the Spellstutter Sprites allow you to counter your copies of the Hive Mind Pacts while not allowing your opponent to copy the effect). Additionally, Spellstutter affects the build of your deck, usually you have to run 2 Vendilion Cliques and 2 Mutavaults to create extra Faeries on board. If you remove the Spellstutters from the deck, you can replace the Mutavaults with Mishra's Factories, which is a more powerful creature since it may be pumped. You can also replace Cliques with Geist of St. Traft, which is very powerful right now (or run both Geist and Clique, if you like to do that - Clique tends to be better against Combo, Geist against control/tempo.).

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Originally Posted by Water_Wizard

Artlee, you are correct. The Bridge triggers go on the stack and even if the Bridges are removed afterwords, your opponent still gets his/her Zombie tokens. The only way for matunos to remove the Bridges without the creation of Zombie tokens is to Punishing Fire his Clique at the end of his opponents draw step.

For example, your opponent chooses to Dredge during his/her draw step. You see some Bridges and a Cabal Therapy, Dread Return or other sacrifice outlet hit their yard. You Punishing Fire your creature during your opponent's draw step (after priority is passed to you) and the Bridges remove. If you allow your opponent to go this his/her Main 1 and he/she flashbacks Cabal Therapy or Dread Return, the Zombie tokens will be made even if you kill your creature in response or remove the Bridges using a card like Purify the Grave or Surgical Extraction.

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Please, read the card.

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Originally Posted by matunos

"Whenever a nontoken creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield."

That 'if' condition means the Bridge has to still be in the graveyard when the triggers resolve.

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This is correct.

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Originally Posted by Tinefol

Please, read the card.

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I just created a new thread in Card Interactions and Rulings regarding this question, so we'll see the response.

However, in reading the card, Bridge from Below would be in the graveyard when the creature entered it. The creature enters as part of the sacrifice ability (i.e. Dread Return, Cabal Therapy, etc.), which occurs when the trigger goes on the stack, not when it resolves.

Using this ruling, the only time a player could Punishing Fire his/her own creature would be in response to an Ichorid EOT trigger or some other phase (Draw phase as mentioned above, declare blockers, etc.)

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by cdr

Bridge from Below has an intervening-if clause (", if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard,"). This means the condition is checked again on resolution in addition to when it triggers. If the Bridge(s) leave the graveyard at any time before the trigger resolves, you get no zombies.

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I stand corrected. However, I really want to playtest this on MTGO. I swear I've been burned by this before (killing my own creature with zombie token triggers still on the stack and my opponent still getting zombie tokens). If anybody is up for that, PM me on here or online (same name online). I won't be on for about the next 6 hours, however.

You have to burn your guy with the zombie trigger on the stack still, obv...

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Originally Posted by matunos

Honestly, I don't see a lot of advantage to Punishing/Grove in UWr Stoneblade versus just running 4 Lightning Bolts: the bolts are cheaper, do more damage, and can be snapped back with Snapcaster. Realistically, is he going to be recurring Punishing Fire enough to justify it over (snappable) bolts? Given the various ways Punishing/Grove can be disrupted, I doubt it. Plus, getting rid of the Groves will help is mana base and/or allow some utility lands like Wasteland, Mishra's, Tower of the Magistrate, etc.

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I completely agree with what you said above. I think the major reason to run red in UW is for 'Blasts coming in out of the board. Secondarily, a few (2) Lightning Bolts main deck may be worthwhile if you expect many small creature decks. Like you said above, I think it is best to cut the Punishing Grove, stabilize the mana base and add some Mishra's and Lightning Bolts / Geist of St. Traft.

I think you could play Punishing Grove in a UWRG list (like the old Trinket Mage/Counterbalance lists which were popular about a year ago), but I would at least like to see some other use for the green like Tarmogoyf or KGrip/Trygon Predator from the side.

So, I want to hear everyone's opinion on the punishing fire engine.
In theory it seems like a good idea against maverick, the deck I'm caring about most atm.

The problem is, as matunos, I think, earlier said, that the manabase gets very vulnerable to wasteland.
But you could leave out the mishra's factories (they are anyhow not so overwhelming in a metagame full of spot removal, losing your land to spot removal sometimes really hurts and can decide the game) and incorporate 3 groves and 3 punishing fire (4 were overkill, given you having 4 stp and additional pathes to bring in after boarding).
Second thing you would need to trim is the counterspells, I would run 3 in a version without punishing engine, but 2 just seems fine then (for the mid-lategame).
Riptide lab can also be left out, because I suppose cutting 1 snapcaster seems good in a version with punishing fire, because you don't want to flashback punishing fire, ain't you?

So, let me hear what you think ;)

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Originally Posted by matunos

- His report seems to indicate he's playing against relatively inexperienced players.

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That's true, with the exception of Gijs, all others are relatively inexperienced or bad players. In spite of that, I think the report showcases the capabilities and potential of the deck.

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Originally Posted by matunos

For example the Counterburn player misplays his Surgical Extraction (and apparently, that's the only Extraction he faces all day? This is why I've chosen not to go the Leyline route for the Dredge matchups). He comments "I’m quite convinced that a lot of other players would do the same." Now, I'll admit I've made the same mistake with Purify the Grave the first time I played someone with a Punishing Grove combo, but that was the last time I'll make that mistake, and with Punishing Maverick making the charts, I wouldn't count on a lot of other people making the same mistake. A properly-timed Extraction will remove half of the removal from his deck and render six of his lands superfluous (the Groves become less than useful at that point: they're basically providing colorless mana and giving the opponent life for the privilege).

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I agree with you and disagree with my teammate. But the point is moot: yes there is a chance that you meet players who makes these kinds of mistakes in the first three rounds of a tournament, but after that, if you do well, chances diminish.

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Originally Posted by matunos

Also, his Bant opponent apparently didn't make good use of the KotR/Ith combo (attack with the Knight, use the Maze to untap after combat damage, and then pump), indicating he also was probably not too experienced.

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I know Ayolt, he's an experienced player and a very nice guy. He's just also a bad player.

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Originally Posted by matunos

- His mana base looks extremely vulnerable. He's only running 1(!) basic. Against a Wasteland-heave aggro deck his mana base is going to get torn up early, and he won't recover. Aggro decks can usually get away with few/no basics because they apply quick pressure and don't need as much mana. Even this "Punishing Blade" deck needs at least 4.
- Given that he only has 4 red spells main, and all 4 are Punishing Fire, for which he really wants a Grove available, I think his number of red duals/fetches is overkill. I would probably ditch the Plateau, and maybe even one of the Volcanics). I'd probably also trade a couple of the fetches (the Arid Mesas) for more Islands and at least one Plains (especially when running 2 Elspeth's main, which also seems like overkill).

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We went down to 1 Plateau in exchange for a Volcanic Island. We tested a bit yesterday against a Stifle/Wasteland Tempo deck, even with 3 Wastelands and a couple of Stifles the deck held up because it has quite a few mana sources (23 lands) and 6 cantrips. Wasteland can screw you, but as long as you get up to 3 mana again, you'll be fine in most cases. And this deck can do that. But do not underestimate the abundance of red sources. Punishing Fire requires alot of red mana. The more you have, the more often you can use it in one turn. It really becomes a tertiary win condition then (after creatures and Jace).

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Originally Posted by matunos

- No Wastelands means no way of dealing with problematic lands from the opponent, such as Maze of Ith, Tower of the Magistrate, opponents' Groves, etc.

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You don't have to. You can win through Jace or Punishing Fire.

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Originally Posted by matunos

- He mentions how the mirror/control matchups tend to hold onto their Wastelands to use on the Grove. That's not surprising; I think that's the right move on their part. A typical Stoneblade deck isn't looking to play mana denial anyway, and he doesn't have anything else worth wasting. They would probably hold onto those Wastelands for a while regardless of if he was playing Punishing/Grove. They can still be tapped for mana in the meantime, though, so I'm not sure how that helps in his development, other than not getting his duals wasted, which is probably a bad move in general for a Stoneblade deck to try to do.

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This is where the 4 Swords to Plowshares help out. And the abundance of other red sources. The deck isn't crippled if the Groves are being targetted, it just means you can win through another plan.

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Originally Posted by matunos

- I find his logic of swapping out Path to Exile for Phyrexian Metamorph to be a little weak given that he's got 3 WoG in the SB which hit Thrun and Geist just fine (not to mention 4 Snapcasters that also can hit Geist on attack), and at best the Metamorph is only one mana less than WoG. If he's really only concerned about problematic legends, Phantasmal Image sounds better at 2cc... at least I could see a justification of that even with the WoG. Neither is likely necessary.

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I agree.

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Originally Posted by matunos

- Overall, without Knight of the Reliquary to fetch Groves (plus a Knight could fetch a 2nd Grove in response to an attempted Extraction), I feel like Punishing/Grove is just a trick here. It's relatively easy to disrupt with a well-timed Extraction/Purify/Wasteland, rendering his Punishing Fires either non-existent or an expensive and slow Shock. Honestly, I don't see a lot of advantage to Punishing/Grove in UWr Stoneblade versus just running 4 Lightning Bolts: the bolts are cheaper, do more damage, and can be snapped back with Snapcaster. Realistically, is he going to be recurring Punishing Fire enough to justify it over (snappable) bolts? Given the various ways Punishing/Grove can be disrupted, I doubt it. Plus, getting rid of the Groves will help is mana base and/or allow some utility lands like Wasteland, Mishra's, Tower of the Magistrate, etc.

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Punishing Fire/Grove = control over creatures. It's very stong in this nearly Goyfless meta. If creatures become too strong you either counter them or Plow them. Your Snapcaster can now be used to snap back Plows, Brainstorms or Spell Snares. He doesn't have to worry about Bolts, Punishing Fire recurs itself. But ofcourse, as I said, it's good in a creature heavy meta where not every creature is a Tarmogoyf like it was two years ago.

Had a bad time at scgdc he past weekend. After getting some suggestions here and Playtesting with my friends I was pretty confident with my deck. Ended up going 0-3 drop. I swear the deck shouldnt have too much variance, but it just bricked on me.

Round 1:
Game 1: against rdw
Game 1 he had 3 goblin guides in his first hand, and i only got one stp and one counter to try and hold him back.

Game 2:
This I completely blame on not getting my morning coffee before playing.
Stp his turn one guide, and surgical end of turn. Yes, i used a surgical extraction and he showed me his hand and library. It was only after i took the goblins out that i realized my mistake and called a judge expecting a gameloss. We both got a warning instead because my opponent didnt keep the game state intact, and he still lost the guides. I didnt think that was fair, and offered to concede. He said its fine since he only wanted to play, so kept playing and he still won the game in the end. Had a good laugh about it during the match anyway.


Round 2: painter combo
Never played against this deck before so i wasnt sure about my plays
Game 1: turn 1 ancient tomb made me peg him as some metalworker deck, the turn 2 blood moon (FOWed thankfully) had me think otherwise. Stp on painter, and landing clique with jitte had him concede afterwards.

Disenchants into the mb and paths
Game 2: i used spellpierce, paths, mana leak, and snapcaster on snare to keep him from getting blood moon and combo pieces on board until he landed a koth. I had a sofaf on board ready to beat face but he gets koth emblem before i drew another creature or factory to use the sword 6 draws later.

Game 3: first 7 was 5 lands and creatures, next 6 no counters, my starting 5 had brainstorm, fetch and snare. Thought i had 2-3 turns to get more counter or removal in hand. Turn 2 bloodmoon was countered, but turn 3 he plays sevant and grindstone, and brainstorm showed me 3 lands fetched, and only got a mana leak next draw.

Round 3: No Bant
Game 1: he plays land and gsz for arbor dryad. Turn 2 he plays ancient tomb, which surprised me and casts natural order which i counter. Turn 3 he casts show and tell. I had sfm and snapcaster on hand so i figure i could race with sofaf. He plays emrakul instead...

Game 2:
He didnt get the initial NO and instead had show and tell put progenitus into play. I had the batter skull in hand. Landed sfm next turn to fetch sofaf and equipped afterwards. He conceded after his 2nd NO was countered since he needed a blocker to prevent lethal.

Game 3:
Mulled to 5 fromm a no land 6 and 7 hand, and got 2 counters and 3 lands. I could only counter enough spells when he had 2 natural orders and 2 show and tells wih an emrakul in his first hand. Turn 1 gsz for arbor. Turn 2 ancient tomb to natural order countered. Turn 3 Show and tell resolved and him landing emrakul and me just playing land. And he still hand another 2 natural orders in hand.

I was really upset because of how i ended up losing to 2 combos, which the deck should have been able to answer. After constant playtesting i Was more afraid of maverick than combo, since 11-13 counters plus snapcaster was a lot, but just losing to bad starting hands was underwhelming.

On a different note, i didnt notice this until i had the cards in hand. Wasteland on my factory, in response tap to make it a creature then cast path to exile on it. Lol

The SCG@DC Top 16 (here) is interesting. Lots of combo (2 Reanimator, 3 Storm, 1 SnT, 1 Elves), 3 RUG Tempo, 0 Stoneblade, 0 Maverick.

Makes me wonder about a transofmative CB sideboard plan again (which 2 rug decks actually did).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by anwei

The SCG@DC Top 16 (here) is interesting. Lots of combo (2 Reanimator, 3 Storm, 1 SnT, 1 Elves), 3 RUG Tempo, 0 Stoneblade, 0 Maverick.

Makes me wonder about a transofmative CB sideboard plan again (which 2 rug decks actually did).

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Until they release a "Too Much Information" about SCG:DC, it will be hard to tell what decks did well versus which decks were highly/under represented. I agree, SCGDC's Top 16 is much different than SCGLA's Top 16.

Why not run a deck like this: http://decks.mtgoacademy.com/Decks.aspx?ID=78478 to begin with? It's basically Countertop with SFM to find Batterskull/Sword of the Meek. Traditionally, this deck does very well against combo and control, so it may be a good call for the SCGDC meta.