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This is why you draw 7, and see if they respond or not. If they try to fetch, you draw 7 again, so that is going to resolve and from there you have a 10 card hand, the cunning wish and your draw 7 on the stack, which is not unfavorable.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinZ
What if they have multiple copies of dtt, wish and counters? that would happen quite often because it is just their game plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by s&s
Drawing seven is not as devastating as you imagine actually, u may draw a lot of dead cards, which may not put u in a better position compaired to their free DTT.
I forgot where the hypergeometric distribution calculator I used last was, I will edit this if I find it, but last time I checked the chance of seeing 2 4-ofs in your opener is something like 15%. Sneak and show only runs 4 more mana sources than omnitell, but it runs 16 total combo pieces rather than 8. Yes, you can sometimes get a clunky draw with multiple fatties, but sneak and show is still statistically more consistent at getting a 2 card combo that puts something on the board. That something might not be as powerful as omniscience + cantrips, but it will happen faster and more often.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinZ
More cantrips make omnitel more consistent. No one denies the speed of sneakshow, and that is why I think there is still a reason to play sneakshow over omnitel. It seems that we just have different idea of consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkfrosting
However I begin to worry about the omnitel mu.
I have been advised to play this deck if I wanted to beat Omni. After reading these worlds I will pass I think
If you are dedicated to beat omni, just play reanimator.Quote:
Originally Posted by janluis1
I think with some sideboard, we can still handle this mu.
Not... really?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinZ
I gave someone quite an earful in the Kyoto discussion thread because they talked about how 'easy' it was to beat Omni - just counter their SnT's! It's quite a bit more complex than that, obviously, but in a vacuum, Omni almost certainly has to resolve a SnT to put an Omni into play, and have something to do after that, and they likely have the ability to win very quickly. SnS needs an Enabler and A Fatty, and typically an attack step. Omni's game plan has more distinct moving pieces, SnS has more durability.
Sure, cantrips serve to decrease variance, but cantripping into cantrips is only good if you just need to find one thing. You're not gaining card advantage, so you're still restricted to the 1 card per turn rule. SnS requires fewer cards in your hand to function, and it has more redundant cards. Not only is SnS faster (and this is debatable...) but it's much more resilient to disruption because it's a 2-card combo instead of 3.
That's honestly the thing I think people overlook when talking about Omni - it's a 3 card combo. The 3rd card often doesn't matter, specifically, but it has to be there.
Oh hey, that was me!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellomdian
As someone playing counterspells (or Storm), SnS is a lot harder to beat because of its speed. I'll almost always be able to stop the first Show for Omni, but the Turn 2 SnS can really screw me. As control I often want to spend the first couple turns cantripping for counters, and as Storm sometimes I just don't have the turn 3 kill through your countermagic. I would imagine that Omni is also quite weak to KGrip, which will spike in popularity if Omni ever gets really out of hand, but as neither an Omni nor SnS player I wouldn't know for sure.
LOL, sorry iGrok, no offense. There is a lot more going on in the Omni matchup since they have variable levels of protection of their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by iGrok
But yeah, if you stop Show, that deck is just a pile of cantrips and uncastable Enchantments.
Haha, none taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellomdian
SnS is just a lot more terrifying because of its redundancy. SnS is more than twice as likely to have combo than Omni, even if you pretend that Omni is an A+B deck, and even if you "only" have Gisele, drawing 14 cards is pretty sweet.
I've played both decks. I think that Omni actually has more redundancy because of it's ability to Wish and filter. Sns is more like to have "a" combo than Omni... but when Omni goes off it's a lot harder to stop. Pithing Needle or Revoker does nothing to Omni... which might not sound like a lot but it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by iGrok
Personally, more likely to have "a" combo is how I define redundancy. I do completely agree that Omni is better once it gets going.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macky984
I 100% see your point. It's just that sometimes an opponent will slam down a Needle or Revoker and pick Sneak Attack and it immediately shuts off half your combo. That got frustrating after a while. LolQuote:
Originally Posted by iGrok
I actually doubt they are 3 card combo now, which they used to be(show+omni+ETI). To say so, I mean DTT not only just improves them in terms of raw power, but also functionally change their whole deck for they now totally forgo the crappy cards like dream hall and ETI and integrate everything into just "one" show and tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellomdian
Agreed. MANY of the Omni builds are moving away from Enter the Infinite. They are relying more on low-mana cantrips, Cunning Wish, DTT and multiple Emrakuls to facilitate their win. Less dead cards in hand (Dream Halls/Enter the Infinite) means a more streamlined build. It's been showing up en mass in the IQ's lately and has been putting up better results lately.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinZ
My point doesn't have anything to do with Enter specifically. It has to do with the fact that you need SOMETHING.Quote:
Originally Posted by Unassigned
If your hand consists of a Show and Tell, and an Omniscience, and that's it, odds are that you're really not going to be doing anything impressive. Your combo is SnT + Omni + "Some Card", and that base is much easier to attack with disruption than SnT + Griseldaddy. If I Thoughtseize your hand, and I see Omni and SnT and that's it, and I bin your Show, your next draw step might as well be irrelevant. You effectively cannot go off (Barring Dig or Brainstorm shenanigans.) Cheating an Omni into play is great and powerful and sweet, but unless you actually cast something else, you are going to say Go, and your opponent is probably going to try to do something about it.
Omni requires more cards, period. It is more durable when it starts to go off, because it can play to many different lines, and the power of a Wish-board where you are likely casting spells for Free means that you can orchestrate much more complex lines of play. But Sneak and Show only needs 2 cards - something to cheat, and something to cheat into play. And it can run redundancy in those cards, so you need 2-of things you have 8-ofs. Omni needs 2-of things it runs 4-ofs.
What happened to this deck? :cry:
Containment Priest >.<Quote:
Originally Posted by sherko7
+
Omnitell got better with DTT
However, I do believe that Sneaky Show is good vs Omnitell and Miracles, both the decks to beat atm!
Well omni tell it defenitly better than sneak and show againt miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lans89
not sure abouthe the omni vs sneak tho
I think anyone who is curious about the mu against Omnitel can watch the video by Julian Knab on youtube. Once SNT is resolved, every cantrip becomes a real threat...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lans89
Omnitell's only upside against Miracles is that its combo isn't directly disrupted by Karakas, Jace or Terminus. Other than that, it just straight up scoops to Countertop + CC3, at least the Shouta-version without Boseiju. Sneak & Show has a much higher threat density and an easier time getting around Countertop, Flusterstorm and REB.
Although everyone is hyping up Omnitell and seems to have lost all faith in this deck, I will probably be sneak-showing into SCG Worcester this weekend. Hopefully everyone swaps out their Containment Priests for Ethersworn Canonists. : )
So is this deck done? :frown:
I hope not, I'm running it in a tournament coming up, hoping to put up great results!:smile:
It's definitely not done, even though SCG Worcester left a sour taste in my mouth. I started off 4-0 (2-0 Miracles, 2-0 BUG Delver, 2-0 Elves, 2-1 MUD). After that, I had one of the most unlucky runs of my Sneak&Show "career", starting off by losing 0-2 to RUG Delver (Andy Boswell), with resolved Sneak Attack in game 1, unable to find cantrips or creatures in ~10 cards, losing game 2 to two Brainstorm locks.
More ridiculous losses followed against Miracles 1-2 (JD Nir; he misplayed hard in game 3 by not leaving up white mana to replay his resolved Containment Priest (he had a Blood Moon on board (to hedge against Boseiju)). I wiped the Priest away, sneaked Griselbrand into play, but couldn't find an Emrakul with Griselbrand. Oh well, card power level in Legacy is so high that mistakes rarely get punished as hard as they should...), URw Delver 1-2 (where he won game 2 by Echoing Truthing my Griselbrand) and BG Hexdepths 1-2. 4-0 into 4-4 drop in the end.
For now, I am testing different decks on MTGO (Grixis Control mainly, seems like a strong choice until DTT gets banned). I might return to Sneak & Show for GP Lille, though.
Good luck at your upcoming tournament, i_b_TRUE!
For what it's worth and if case anyone is interested, my SCGWor list:
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lotus Petal
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Dig through Time
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
SB:
2 Flusterstorm
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
2 Through the Breach
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Pyroclasm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Wipe Away
2 Blood Moon
Thanks for the update JPA! Sorry to hear the bad run :frown:
JD is a friend of mine, I can ask him about that match if he remembers. But is there any changes you would make to the list?
I am hoping for a good run at the tournament so I can stay positive about the deck we love!
You can always play around with the number of Digs, Probes, Pierces, add/remove cards like Misdirection/Jace/Intuition, but I wouldn't necessarily change anything. The sideboard is adjustable as well, of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by i_b_TRUE
Well, I do not think, that Omnitell has a better matchup against Miracles than Sneak Show.
Sneak Show is way faster than Omnitell and is not so weak against a cb with a cc=3 on the top.
Many People underestimate the power of Griselbrand, even in the matchup Omni vs Sneakshow. Draw 14 can deal with many things ;)
The real reason in my opinion, why Omnitell is still on the run and not Sneak Show, is Death and Taxes. But D&T is on the downswing, because the matchups against Omnitell and good Miracle-players are not the best.
So, when Death and Taxes and Containment Priest as SB Slot are both on the downswing, maybe Sneakshow might be a secret tech for Lille :)
Well, just acquired the deck, so I'll bring it to a legacy tourney tomorrow for some testing.... How big of a deal is flusterstorm in the board from the last list posted?
I haven't got access to them, so I was wondering if a Misdirection could do the trick? :)
They are very good against Omnitell, Grixis Control and the other discard- and combo-based strategies. You could replace them with Swan Songs, even though you shouldn't board those against Grixis Control.Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix4
Alternatively you could cut the Flusterstorms to play 4 REB-effects instead of 2, they are extremely good in the current meta (Omnitell, Miracles, Grixis).
I'll try that :) Thanks :DQuote:
Originally Posted by JPA
Managed to win a trial at GP Lille today.
2-0 Omnitell
2-0 Jund
2-1 Mirror
2-0 BUG Delver
2-0 Shardless BUG
Went a combined 15-5 over the weekend at Lille.
5-0 Trial
6-3 GP
4-2 drop Bazaar of Duals
I will post my list once I am home. Even though I feel really demotivated for Legacy at the moment, I am looking forward to SCGDC in August.
Is there any reason really to play Sneak n Show anymore when there are strictly better options like Omnitell available?Quote:
Originally Posted by JPA
Sneak&Show qualified me for my first PT, it's my pet deck (even though most people find it dull and stupid, which it definitely can be) and I found Omnitell very mediocre in testing. The only good things about it are the instant win and Dig. Other than that, it tries to do a 3-card-combo with 4 enablers, is often really slow by cantripping into cantrips and concedes to Countertop+CC3. I prefer to have a wider range and higher threat density, even if I might lose a game because I need the attack step to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
It also helps that most people swapped Containment Priests for Ethersworn Canonists.
When/If Dig gets banned, people will probably come back to Sneak&Show, putting Omnitell back to Tier 2.
On another note, for those still interested in a dead and "strictly worse" Omnitell, you can find my list here (2nd from top): http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...015-2015-07-04
It's really just a 2-card combo. Once you find Show and Tell+Omniscience, all of your cantrips draw you into the win 98%+ of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPA
I understand you have an emotional attachment to the decklist, but it just seems as if Omnitell puts up better results more consistently recently and that the metagame is just stronger vs. Emrakul/Griselbrand than it is vs. Omniscience.Quote:
On another note, for those still interested in a dead and "strictly worse" Omnitell, you can find my list here (2nd from top): http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...015-2015-07-04
If everybody jumps onto the Omnitell wagon, it doesn't mean it's a strictly better list... I think JPA shows that with a solid pilot the deck is still amazing.
Honestly that's what's so good about legacy - it seems, more than in other formats, so much more important that the player knows his deck (and the metagame) than playing the so-called best deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPA
I played a small 4 round, 12 person event Sunday using your list.
The only change I made to the main deck were -1 Spell Pierce, +1 Spell Snare. The Snare felt wrong every time I drew it, and may replace it with Flusterstorm. The sideboard I just through together at the last minute without a lot of thought.
Here's how it went.
4 colour Delver, 2/0
Felt silly easy. The second game I had 2 Pithing needle's just when I needed them. One for Wasteland and one for Deathrite.
Burn, 2/0
First game I had Emrakul turn 2, second game was basicly the same, but took me to my turn 3.
MUD 2/1
Game one on the play I live the dream. Git probe, into Ancient Tomb, into Lotus Petal, into S&T, into Emrakul = profit.
Game two he locked me out so fast I couldn’t recover. Game 3 I wipe the board with Emmy using Through the Breach, and now were both in top deck mode, and my cantrips just took over the game and I managed to recover so much easier.
Nic Fit 1/2
Game one his hand disruption eats me up, game two I win easily with a turn 2 S&T into Sneak. Game 3 was crazy close, but in the end his hand disruption along with Huntmaster pressure is to much and I know its over.
I think the only main deck change I would make is the Spell Snare, into Flusterstorm. As for the side, I may add 4 Leylines to help with Burn and hand disruption.
I thought about playing the sideboard tech of Brad Nelson (2x Omniscience, Jace)
Do you think it is worth playing ?
Congrats on your good result. I don't see the benefits of Spell Snare over Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm, so replacing it with one of the latter ones seems reasonable. I like Spell Pierce a lot more than Flusterstorm as a main deck card, as it hits a lot of the cards that we have trouble with that Flusterstorm doesn't - Counterbalance, Jace, Liliana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oath Breaker
Jace definitely is a solid sideboard choice. I don't like Omniscience in the sideboard, especially now that everyone replaces their Containment Priests with Ethersworn Canonists. If you want to play with Omniscience and 3-card-combos, you should just play Omnitell. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckerator
I have to admit that I've been liking Omnitell more and more, jamming it a lot on MTGO. A Dig-ban would have made the choice to play Sneak&Show at upcoming tournaments much easier, now I am torn between Omni and Sneak.
I played some matches at cockatrice testing this deck.
Played a list i have seen at SCG Super IQ - Columbia
Changed some slots
Creatures [8]
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
Instants [12]
2 Dig through time
4 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
Sorceries [11]
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Show and Tell
Enchantments [6]
2 Omniscience
4 Sneak Attack
Artifacts [4]
4 Lotus Petal
Lands [18]
2 City of Traitors
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Steam Vents
Do you think we can make a split between Omni&Show and Sneak&Show?
Some changes i wanna try:
- 1 Sneak Attack
- 3 Gitaxian Probe
- 1 Emrakul
- 1 Griselbrand
+ 1 Omniscience
+ 3 Preordain
I tested a Hybrid on MTGO a bit and wasn't impressed at all. It's way too unfocused and also has some nasty dis-synergies (drawing Omniscience + creature does nothing, drawing Sneak Attack + Omniscience does nothing; I'd rather keep it a 2-card-combo).Quote:
Originally Posted by Deckerator
I went 5-4 at SCGDC, feeling pretty helpless.
2-0 UG 12post
1-2 4c Delver
2-0 Sylvan Plug
2-1 BGw Hexdepths
0-2 4c Delver
2-0 Omnitell
1-2 Omnitell
2-0 Omnitell
1-2 BUG Delver
Won the Modern 5K Premier IQ on Sunday, though. :cool: Modern seems much more fun than Legacy right now.