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I'm just getting back into legacy after a 4 year break and I don't have many resources at the moment, so I wanted to know: how essential is Chalice of the Void in the sideboard? I've noticed every build I've seen of Turbo Depths runs it, but I'm not sure exactly what it's there for. What matchups is it used in? And how much of an upside is it to play it on 1 while we run so many 1 cmc spells ourselves?
its more against ANT, TES and SnT decks. Chalice for zero then one, to lockdown most of their mana enables and spells. Helps us since we are racing to combo first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uboh
Would anyone consider running choke in the board? Seems like a nasty turn 1-2 play. That would devastate miracles, delver, deathblade decks. Not sure if it is totally needed though with the 4x needles.
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To me, Choke seems like it would only be good against decks that we already roll pretty hard.
How important is to include maze and a single sphere of resistance in the sideboard? are absolutely necessary? I don't get the point.. :frown:
Another thing.. pros and cons to run steely resolve in the main? or maybe is better in the side?
The single Sphere of Resistance is just another Chalice of the Void effect against spell-based combo decks. The singleton Maze can be tutored for with any of our land searches and gets boarded in against just about every deck with creatures. You could instead run it in the main over Bojuka Bog.
Steely Resolve probably changes the Death and Taxes matchup drastically. Could be good as a 2-of in the sideboard or split between main and side if you cut some bad cards.
Actually the primary reason for Chalice in the board (though it does help immensely against combo) was for miracles. It improves the match up tremendously.Quote:
Originally Posted by molaboy
The original versions of the deck (that used to run 4 Simian Spirit guide!!) ran 4 Steely Resolve. To be honest that was a long time ago and I had forgotten about the card. I wonder if its time to test it again, as I can see it being very helpful against DnT.
Not of this world is better than steely resolve, I have tested steely resolve during the first version of the decks and the card is too slow doesn't answer flickerwisp on steely + mother+flying blockers
where you can't give pro white with sejirii steppe.
The best way to beat death and taxes is a playset of not of this world true story.
I would be gratefull if my last version of the deck is changed in the primer. I am on that and haven't changed the deck for like 5 months now while still testing other stuff.
Might update to some bayou cause TT doesn't see much play anymore but there is still infect with submerge in side though.
I don't know why more people plays expedition map this card is better than sylvan scrying.
A turn one expedtion map with a stage or urborg, is often a turn 3 token so it needs to be fow if opponent doesn't have the wasteland.
And yes the best way to beat miracle is having both surgical and chalice in side and answers to CB with decay/grips. Not sure we want four of each.
4 Vampire Hexmage
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Forest
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Khalni Garden
4 Mana Confluence
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 2 Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 Not of This World
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
What do you play chalice on against miracles? 1 or 2?
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chalice @1 shut off swords+bs+ponder+top
the best you can do is turn one needle/map/duress on urborg/thespian
turn two chalice@1
turn three four token
they need their disenchant/wear tear/fow to have an answer
its just really good at what it does. I don't really know how expensive they are but id say they are pretty important. See adrieng's response below. I almost always play it for 1. Only rare situations would have me play it for 0. There are a few situations I play it for 2. When i'm playing against lands (punishing fire and life from the loam), against tees decks because they don't run 1 drops, and probably some other matches I'm not thinking of right now. Oh ya, Against burn sometimes for price of progress.Quote:
Originally Posted by Uboh
i've never really found maze all that useful. Its great if you draw into it but id rather just have what i need to win instead of something that prolongs the game. See adrieng's response on steely. If you want to buy time, id say that chalice does a better job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serch
updated primer with your current list posted hereQuote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
good reasons to run ChaliceQuote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
Got utterly destroyed by Big Red Sneak Attack. Even with Thoughseizes and T3 combo pieces in hand.
Big read (and painter) can be a real challenge because of turn 1 blood moon. Naturally a bad matchup because of land hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooligan
Hey, quick question, [card]vesuva[/card] doesn't work with the combo because it copies as it entered the battlefield right? I was starring at it last night and thinking that plus crop rotation could be epic.
Vesuva does not work with the combo because it would enter play as Dark Depths with the counters. Stage works because it is already in play when it copies Dark Depths. Vesuva can be useful against decks like lands where they have lots of great targets to copy. In general though, the uses are more corner case (like say a 2nd copy of bog or steppe in odd scenarios) than necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by ComplexPants
Thoughts on Ancient Tomb in this deck? Pulling some Lands tech for this deck.
For turn 3 combos, it doubles as another Urborg in that you can use it to activate Stage on Depths with one land.
It also makes your Crop Rotations double as fast mana post board for playing Chalice on one on turn 1. You don't need a spirit guide or petal to do this, just a crop rotation, if you have Ancient Tomb in the deck.
If maindeck, could allow Needle plus Map on the same turn.
played a 19 man monthly legacy tourney first time with this deck and its amazingly fun to play. a couple of advantages maybe because they assume we are playing the slow controllish lands deck and they are not familiar with some of our cute plays and the interactions (specially not of this world).
2-0 (1-0) against animator
discard discard then he got tyrant first but ran out of gas to bounce my permanents and i was able to resolve another marit lage after he bounced of the first one. game 2 is easy mull to leyline for me.
2-1 (2-0) Infect
i had a god draw, play first and keeping. Dark Depths, petal, petal, hexmage... i thought of doing it end of turn but was scared of stifle or wasteland and my hand is allin material so i went for it.... turn 1 marit lage! he probes me and conceeded..
SB i didnt know what deck he has and assumed maybe SnT, Storm or Delver so i board in my chalices. apparently he is on infect and i died on turn 2 when he forced my turn 1 chalice, would have won if i did.
game 3 i played a bit tight and controllish with turn 1 chalice w/o combo. Early crop to maze helped me a lot to buy time for marit lage and swing back.
2-1 (3-0) eldrazi
game one on play with combo is easy. game 2 he TKS me to take hexmage with wasteland and karakas backup so i cant do much.
game 3, kept a hand with 2 depths, hexmage, urborg, tutors. i thought i can race him but he played wasteland early followed by karakas and i cant find my pithing needles!!! i decided to crop rotate for maze to stall the 4/4 endless one attacker but he dropped an reality smasher.
here is the game winning play, i drew and played thespian so my board is urborg, thespian, depths, maze, forest and hexmage with elvish guide, depths and NotW in my hand.. im down to 2. he has wasteland, karakas, 4/4 endless, reality smasher, land land... and declared attack
before blockers i sac hexmage to remove the counters from DD, he confirmed that my token is legendary and he said ok to resolved, ability on stack he wastelanded my maze, i responded by untapping the endless one, token appears he tried to bounce by karakas, i responded by NotW, declared blocker on reality smasher... survives and swings back FTW! awesome feeling. :)
i have to go off that turn and i have a couple of lines to take depending on his move but i think i can get marit lage even if he attack first respond with wasteland on depths, i will copy with thespian and still can counter karakas.
ID ID for the next two rounds and split the top8 prizes, very boring waiting for 2 hours to split and they gave me a look when i said i wanted to play for more and not to split. haha
here's my list.
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Senjiri Steppe
1 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Crop Rotation
3 Into the North
3 Pithing Needle
3 Not of This World
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Tabernacle
What made you go 4 leyline? Expecting dredge and reanimator in your meta? I am currently playing surgical instead of leyline.
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Its something I've considered, but never actually tested mainly because chalice isn't in the board of my version taking away some of the Tombs utility. Tomb is interesting though, the life loss is unlikely to be relevant in most match-ups and it does also play through Daze very nicely with Map/Needle on turn 1. A turn 2 board of Tomb and one of either Stage or Depths won't set very many alarm bells off either at first. I doubt many people would play around the Crop + Guide combo in that spot until they've seen it happen. Some may even consider wasting the Tomb or combo land in that spot leading to a gross blowout.Quote:
Originally Posted by DNSolver
yes, a fair number of animator and dredge and also hits RG Lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by ComplexPants
I find it easier because they cant counter it and almost auto win against animator and dredge.
Chalice is probably just as good if not better against those matches. It can be cast before turn 4 and is still useful where as leyline is dead. Chalice also has other applications that leyline doesnt.Quote:
Originally Posted by molaboy
You could run ancient tomb but it could we can your man I base below the recommended level. If you check primer I've outlined the minimum Manno face that you should kind of use as a guideline. If you go below the amount of wins that produce Black or green then you're going to start risking not being able to cast your critical spells in exchange for a possible slight advantage in very narrow cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by DNSolver
I also have 4 chalices. :) my winrate with those matches significantly increases with Leyline.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Those along with TES and ANT are the matches im very cautious of.
Hi guys,
im new to this deck. im planning on leaving the eldrazi camp. Does anybody have a sideboardguide for me?
thank you!
the whole Not of This World thing main, makes the least sense for an outsider. Why whould you play a card that is blank in more than +/- 70% of your matches?
and why the chalices over thorns? the deck has infinite 1 drops
No sb guide because the ild one was out of date. Also there are alot of variations of sideboards so having a sinple guide wouldnt be that iseful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noloam_
Not of this world is equivalent to running force of will / counterspells in a combo combo deck like high tide or sneak and show. Traditional combo decks have to worry about successfully casting a spell to win so they need a counterspell to push it through and make sure it resolves. In dark depths our combo is basically uncounterable because you cant really prevent a land drop, so our equivalent would be having the token removed from the game. Since counterspells cant target abilities, not of this world does exactly that. Although counter spells can prevent things like of swords to plowshares it Missed cards like maze of ith and karakas. Notw also stops flicker wisp. Although it might not seem that useful because it is wasted in a lot of matches the matches where it's not needed are generally easy and you can afford to have a dead card in your deck because you already have good matchup versus them .
Thanks for that
do you guys sometimes board out the steppen and/or the bog? because the landcount is already low i.m.o.
Hi guys,
Build the deck, played in a local event last week and will play in one this Friday.
I play the Turbo variant, 3 ITN, 3 Needle, 3 NOTW, 4 ESG, no BoB's or DRS.
Just before the general acknowledgement that Steely Resolve is a 'bad' card, I bought a couple to test them out. So (if I get them by mail) I would like to put one in the side or even one main. If not, I put the 4th NotW in the side.
Point is, steely resolves provides a semi-permanent NotW, with the downside that you can't use sejirre steppe any more. But in a matchup against D&T, where they have multiple answers, isn't a 'permanent' solution against there answers better that a one time shot with NotW? I would still keep them in. To kill/stop or token then they need an answer AND they need to be able to vial in flickerwisp. And even then, we could still have a NotW in hand as backup.
Or am I completly wrong? Because I heard Negator say that in this matchup he waits for the opening. In that case, I would asume Steely Resolve definitly has value.
What do you guys think?
Btw, last week I played 2-2, winning against ghostbusters (was tight, try to go of 2 times without protection and got Sworded and with the hexproof, flying, flash creatures, it wasn't easy to get through), winning against UR Burn (token turn 2 and turn 3)
Losing against Miracles, good game, but game 3 I had an answer for Blood Moon one, but couldn't assemble the combo before the second Moon hit. And then it was over to recover. Lost 1-2
Losing to infect (0-2) discarded a infecter (should have picked the brainstorm), could assemble the combo turn 3, but then I could not play my discard. But I know what he had in his hand and normally coudln't kill me, thanks to the BS he went off turn 3. Game 2, I could assemble the combo turn 3, he went off in turn 2... I already mulled the second game to 6 to find discard/removal/better hand, maybe should have gone to 5 to have an answer, the 6 was a good hand to go off (with protection) but no disruption.
So I blame it all on the pilot :-D This Friday hopefully I keep it together and don't play so risky (which I did all evening)
But if our opponent has a wasteland, he can waste our dark depths in response to our thespian's ability to stop the combo. :/Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Which is why there are 4 pithing needles in the 75.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serch
In practice matches on MTGO I have a pretty high win percentage now. However, what kills me quickly is when wasteland + loam come together. With punishing loam being a deck these days, I seem to run into that a bit. I am debating using Leyline just to hedge against reanimator, dredge and loam decks or things like delver with snaps and fish.
@Noloam
I think I just played you on MTGO. Those were good games. Made lots of mistakes. I think if I scryed for a karakas, and then crop rotated into depths I could have baited you, but those 3 NOFW were murder.
I sideboard out Bog a decent amount. The only deck I regularly side out Steppe against is Eldrazi. If you have Ghost Quarter or an extra Wasteland in the sideboard, you can swap that in without going down a land.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noloam_
Keep in mind that Steppe doesn't really count as a mana-producing land (despite it giving you a colorless, essentially) since it comes into play tapped and only taps for white. If you side out Steppe you don't really need to worry about compensating for it with another land.
Just 4-1'd another league with this deck after putting it down for a while (for school, not for another deck).
R1: Miracles
Lost game 1 (pretty convinced that G1 is unfavorable). Won a quick G2 but G3 dragged out and opponent set up Clique + Karakas to semi-lock me out.
R2: Manaless Dredge
Essentially a bye. G1 Needle, in response he Phantasmagorians, after that resolves I name Phantasmagorian and then rotate for bog. I combo two turns later. Similiar affair in G2 where I keep Hexmage, Swamp, Petal, Depths, Stage, Scrying, Ghost Quarter. I figure I'm going to be on the play, so I can turn 1 Hexmage and stop Bridges, turn 2 combo, turn 3 ghost quarter myself to scrying for sejiri steppe to get through Narcomoebas. He whiffs off his first dredge and dies.
R3: Miracles (same opponent)
G1 was pretty easy, Not of This World doing work here. Ghost Quarter was Strip Mine because the opponent wanted to keep his top 3 cards. G2 I Needle top, then Chalice for 1, then play land go for a few turns. I am better at playing land go than he is, and he dies with 2 StP in his hand.
Current sideboard plan for this matchup: -8 discard -1 Bog -1 fast mana +4 Chalice +4 Decay +1 Ancient Tomb +1 Needle (the 4th one)
R4: Burn
Pretty easy 2-0, very little tactical strategy here except playing around Price of Progress and bolt on Hexmage.
R5: Maverick
G1 he plays turn 2 Thalia, but I have turn 2 combo with Hexmage anyway. He plays Wasteland. But then I unveil my ace in the hole: Stage to get around his Wasteland. Then at his endstep I tap my three lands to try to combo. He draws a card with Horizon Canopy, lets my combo happen, then Swords on my guy. In response I pitch spirit guide to Not of This World his thing, and he complains.
G2 I win on my opponent's turn 1.
My friends were around when I was playing this league. They suggested I cut the 3 Not of This World to get 3 Sylvan Library in the main because casting that turn 1 is big game in almost any matchup. While this is correct, Not of This World won me 2 games and was relevant in the other match against Miracles because he had to take it with Vendilion Clique to stop me from countering his Karakas.
They also suggested Loam, but I'm not ready to jump into that deck yet. Then I probably start needing things like Wasteland or Exploration or something.
hehehe yes. it was fun :)!Quote:
Originally Posted by ComplexPants
thanks for that. what is your sideboard strategy vs D&T?Quote:
Originally Posted by Negator77'
No other thoughts on Steely Resolve?Quote:
Originally Posted by Xod
Just curious did you become bored of Eldrazi or meta game shifts made you change deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Noloam_
i got kinda bored. you get wrecked by grixis 80% of the time. The deck just loses to the most stupid stuff. It seems that the depths combo is quite strongQuote:
Originally Posted by l33twash0r
Would you mind posting your list? I am curious about the ancient tomb and how you worked it into your deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by DNSolver
I am debating on putting a tabernacle in the 75, and not sure what our flex spots are. Based off of some other posts, I am also thinking about dropping 2 duress for 2 Library's.
Also, I think we need to get a SBing guide together as well as needle targets.
This may have solved something that was puzzling me. I also played against Manaless Dredge on Thursday night and he straight up conceded the match after game 1. I've never had that happen in a league match. I just thought he must have been really pissed about something. I guess possibly hitting depths back to back might do that. It has to be the most lopsided match-up I've ever seen in Legacy. Tons of land tutors and Bog are total blowouts and even the random discard spells are all essentially time walks. Hexmage removing bridges (while creating marit Lage) if they manage to dodge the graveyard hate is just the icing.Quote:
Originally Posted by DNSolver
My main configuration is pretty different from what you are running, so I'm not sure it will be all that helpful. My pre Conspiracy plan is -4 Mox Diamond, -1 Bog, -4 Brainstorm, -1 Map, -1 Gemstone. +4 Needle, +2 Decay, +2 Grip, +1 Ghost Quarter, +2 Surgical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noloam_
My biggest problems with Steely Resolve in the D+T match-up are that it is purely post combo help and that they can still brick wall you with a flyer. Sometimes the issue isn't their spell/creature based answers, but their wastelands, Ports, and taxing cards making crop and co harder to set up. Besides that, I'd say about half my wins against that deck involve Steppe in some way. Mother of Runes + a flyer is a real issue and hoping to Decay your way out of that spot if you can't use Steppe because of the shroud granted by Steely Resolve is an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xod
Thanks for the helpful feedback!Quote:
Originally Posted by Negator77'
Played 3-1 last night.
Crazy games, won some games mostly because of my opponents mistakes, NotW literally won me these games. Might even think of using Ancient Stirrings to dig for that alone (but if would be very niche). Lost the game against a pox build, but was so close, really depended on the top deck and he top decked a liliana where I was on 4 life, with him attacking for 4 and I needed to create lage to block... The opportunity to create the second one was there but I needed a mana source, the petal was one deeper...
Also won 2-0 against a Thalia stompy deck because he didn't find the answers and I could crop rotate/needle/NotW for protection while he didn't find enough of his 16 outs. And indeed, it was more the wastelands (didn't have ports) that I had to worry about. Although the other hate cards (STP, mangara, Displacer) where places where steely resolve would definitly help. I got lucky I guess.
Love the deck after 8 games that I played with it. Some have been a absolute blowout, others have been really tight and fun to win/lose. So far still making some mistakes (which is good, because this keeps me interesting to play the deck more).
5-0 in a league tonight.
R1: Eldrazi 2-1
G1 was a turn 2 win
G2 he had a pretty nuts draw
G3 turn 1 Needle on Wasteland sealed the deal, despite my opponent casting Oblivion Sower in a desperate attempt to hit Stage + Depths
R2: Grixis Delver 2-0
Not much worth commenting on here.
R3: UR Delver 2-0
I was worried about Vapor Snag, but he never had it.
R4: Infect 2-0
I was worried about Submerge, but I had Not of This World in the one game where it mattered
R5: Show and Tell
G1 was interesting because I thought he was Delver from his opening, then he Show and Tells in an Emrakul to block my 20/20. He then whiffs on his next turn and dies.
G2: I figured he was probably on the newer Sneaky Omni Show lists, so Needle + Karakas wasn't going to cut it. Nevertheless, I had those in my opening hand, along with Map, Thoughtseize, Hexmage, and two other lands. It was a great keep. He does nothing turn 1, so I run my Thoughtseize into a Pierce. Then, I Needle, which resolves, and think about saying Griselbrand or Sneak Attack. I decided on Griselbrand because even if he shows it in he doesn't get anything out of it, and it's still pretty useless if he has Sneak Attack. He EOT Intuitions for S+T, Ponders, plays land, passes. Having drawn Crop Rot and another Needle, I'm feeling pretty good about this. I play map, Needle on Sneak Attack. He cantrips another million times. I draw Depths, so I Crop Rot into Urborg, play Hexmage, Depths, then pass. He Cunning Wishes for Wipe Away to answer Marit Lage, Show and Tells in Omniscience (I put in 2nd Hexmage), then passes. I search for another Depths with Map, make a 20/20. He bounces it in combat. I pass, he whiffs on drawing anything powerful to cast with Omniscience, and the 2nd Lage kills him.