[Primer] +Manaless Dredge+

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Originally Posted by Michael Keller

That may change given the potential resurgence of Death and Taxes.

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Your comment made me lol in light of the day I just had.

Round 1 - D&T (1-2)
G1, I get him to misjudges his role and make him think he's the beatdown when he isn't. That gives me exactly the window I need to combo out. G2: T3 - RiP. G3: T2 - RiP

Round 2 - Bye (turns out the guy was a doctor and was on call)

Round 3 - Enchantress (0-2)
G1: T2 - RiP (yes, maindeck). Well, fuck. G2: T2 - Elephant Grass, T3 - Humility, durdle for 15+ turns until he RiPs and Emrakuls and whatnots.

Round 4 - Burn (2-0)
G1 & G2 - I combo out on T3.

Round 5 - D&T (1-2)
G1, I combo out, easy peasy. G2, I Unmask his RiP(!) but he beats me the fair way. I whiff on just about everything and he kills me the turn before I could combo out. G3 I have the Unmask again but he doesn't have the RiP. My dredges whiff again and again the turn I can combo out I only have a DR and no CTs. I know he has Warping Wail and unfortunately he remembered it too.

So... Yeah. There were 3 D&T players in the room (on a total of 15), 1 Enchantress and assorted other stuff. Shit happens.

All of the black targets are better than the blue targets without question, it's just that the degree to which the black targets are better than the blue targets isn't significant enough to matter over supporting Force of Will because the blue targets are still serviceable enough to combo out with - black targets also have fringe benefits in certain match ups i.e. Griselbrand is amazing vs Show&Tell.

Force of Will's failure rate is high even at 10%, it may not be as high for you because you're cutting Dredgers for blue cards but you're just trading consistency for your Force of Will for inconsistency in your mulligans. If you want to know why Mindbreak Trap is the only card I listed in my SB, it's to make a point that Force of Will is worse than Unmask vs combo because post-board being able to remove the blue combo creatures is what allows you to play more answers to combo in your 60, go back and re-read what I wrote and it will make sense.

I would rather have Chancellor of the Annex than Gitaxian Probe if it's just a question of the 4 flex slots, getting Gitaxian Probe countered is awful where delaying a Deathrite Shaman is probably the highest value you can ask for from any 1 card. Otherwise you're looking at cutting 1 Dread Return, 1 Dread Return target, 1 Shambling Shell and 1 Nether Shadow as the standard for sneaking in another 4 set or getting the blue count to 18.

I still really question the value of the MD combo kill, most games just end once you can resolve a Dread Return at all and the number of decks that can just kill you thru' a Sphere of Resistance is pretty slim. I'm not saying it can't happen, but I'm not sure the times it does is worth losing the utility elsewhere.

Contagian is bad, D&T at most has 1 Containment Priest for their tutor to find and just relies on RIP otherwise. Relic is a rare bird because people have graveyard decks other than Dredge to worry about.

I'm also beginning to wonder if it's time for Vengeful Pharaoh to shine. Sandbagging it and dumping it off Phantasmagorian seems pretty good against Thalia v1.0 and Containment Priest.

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Originally Posted by Michael Keller

I'm also beginning to wonder if it's time for Vengeful Pharaoh to shine. Sandbagging it and dumping it off Phantasmagorian seems pretty good against Thalia v1.0 and Containment Priest.

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That works fine the first time around. A lot of people tend to not pay attention to whatever you dump in your GY. The plan fails when they have a Mother of Runes though.

After your opponent is aware, they usually try very hard to Surgical or otherwise get rid of your Pharaoh. It's funny as hell - as if we care if we get to keep the Pharaoh(s) or not.

I have some questions/thoughts for you veterans:

If you're more afraid of RIP et al than other combo decks, is the unmask still better in your oppinion? The way I'm thinking, if I'm on the draw (which I want to be) I'd wanna unmask right away since RIP can come down on T2. That would timewalk me twice before I get to 8-card-discard. If I got FOW (and nothing significant happens T1) I can discard at end of turn and then wait out the hate-cards. I don't know how important this really is, but it feels important, at least in theory.

So, if I wanna run FOW in my 75, I'd wanna run the blue DR-targets - which don't go well together with phantasmagorian. Does this mean I'd want to cut phantasmagorian and run FOW maindeck?

Regarding the Spy into Progentius-plan that Echelon advocates: Since you need a full hand to stay safe with progenitus, does this also mean phantasmagorian is a liability? If so, would it be worth running Progenitus in a Phantasmagorian-less Drake-deck?

Also, I wonder if Jin Gitaxias have been tested as DR target in a FOW-list instead of Drake? He gives you 7 dredges or draws at end of turn and, if not answered on the next turn, puts opponent in topdeck mode. If you draw instead of dredge (you still get to discard a bunch of cards, probably) you could draw into FOW and should be close to unbeatable.

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Originally Posted by JackaBo

I have some questions/thoughts for you veterans:

If you're more afraid of RIP et al than other combo decks, is the unmask still better in your oppinion? The way I'm thinking, if I'm on the draw (which I want to be) I'd wanna unmask right away since RIP can come down on T2. That would timewalk me twice before I get to 8-card-discard. If I got FOW (and nothing significant happens T1) I can discard at end of turn and then wait out the hate-cards. I don't know how important this really is, but it feels important, at least in theory.

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Interesting...

The interaction between the blue targets and Phantasmagorian isn't that sigificant for Whirlpool cards, before them we used creatures that were just draw 3 and that was more or less enough. As far as Jin Gitaxis, I think it's worse than Griselbrand, but being blue I imagine it's good enough if you want a Dread Return target that takes advantage of Show&Tell ... honestly I don't think it really matters much what you Dread Return as long as it is speeding you up or slowering them down on the clock.

Cutting Phantasmagorian is never the answer to anything.

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Originally Posted by JackaBo

Regarding the Spy into Progentius-plan that Echelon advocates: Since you need a full hand to stay safe with progenitus, does this also mean phantasmagorian is a liability? If so, would it be worth running Progenitus in a Phantasmagorian-less Drake-deck?

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The times you want to grind your opponent out that way, you can see it coming from miles away. Usually being able to draw Progenitus just once is more than enough (and normally unnecessary). I wouldn't run this deck without Phantasmagorian in it, it can be so important to have it I don't want to be without.

Progenitus makes Balustrade Spy pretty awesome vs. S&T, by the way.

@Final Fortune: I get your points about the blue targets over the black targets and just wanted to say you're right about that.

Ok, went 2-2 in the weekly with this Manaless list:

Creatures: (41)
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
3 Nether Shadow
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
1 Shambling Shell
2 Whirlpool Rider
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
3 Phantasmagorian
1 Griselbrand
2 Chancellor of the Annex

Non-Creature Spells: (19)
4 Bridge from Below
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return

Sideboard: (15)
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Contagion
2 Unmask
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ashen Rider

Round 1: vs. BURG Delver

Game 1: I think I very easily beat his turn one Delver that he eventually had to Bolt to exile Bridges. I shredded his hand with idiots, Dread Returned a Chancellor of the Annex and sealed up the game.

+3 Contagion
-2 Nether Shadow
-1 Ichorid

Game 2: I end up just pitching a Dredger for my first turn, he ends up Surgicaling the Grave-Troll and I have no defence with Wraith that I can do about it. We go draw go (discarding random jank to my graveyard) for a while I search for a Phantasmagorian or Wraith to fight his DRS. Eventually I find the Wraith and cycle it in response to DRS targeting Stinky. However, I whiff on the Dredge and I can’t get going.

Game 3: My opponent keeps a lose hand with cage, Surgical and DRS and Wasteland as his only mana. He slams Cage T1 but I Force. We draw-go for a while, he Surgicals my first Dredger. However, I have another to discard, he finds his coloured land too late and I eventually overwhelm him.

1-0

Round 2: vs. Shardless BUG

Game 1: He seriously does nothing and I just massacre him. I think he only gets a Tarmogoyf going, I ignore it and just combo kill him with Rider > Flayer > Grave-Troll.

+3 Contagion
-2 Nether Shadow
-1 Ichorid

Game 2: He mulls deep and finds Leyline of the Void. I scoop it up.

Game 3: He mulls to four, doesn’t find Leyline and I massacre him with beatdowns and combo.

Apparently he only had a singleton Leyline and a Cage for hate.

Round 3: vs. Maverick

This was hard!

Game 1: He goes Mom (eh) into Thalia (!). I cycle Street Wraith to hope to naturally draw into Force, but whiff and Thalia is in the house. Heretic Cathar also comes down and I can’t really effectively attack either (Ichorid does nothing!) and my whole game plan is paralyzed. A combo I can’t cast stares back at me from my full graveyard. I die.

+4 Disrupting Shoal
+3 Contagion
-1 Griselbrand
-3 Nether Shadow
-2 Bridge from Below
-1 Ichorid

Game 2: He has Mom, but I easily overpower her with a very fast hand of triple Wraith. I blind Therapy away a Knight like a pro (not really, as we’ll see…) and then combo kill him.

Game 3: I make big mistakes here. I have Shoal + Narco all game (drawing second Narco for draw step, ugh), and get somethings going as he goes Mom into Deathrite. Deathrite pecks away at my graveyard but it’s already pretty stacked so I can still do a lot. Ichorid comes in and I have the sense that he has Knight of the Reliquary in hand (he has gone land Mom, turn two no play, turn three land, Deathrite – which I guessed he topdecked) but I don’t sac my Icky to Therapy Knight. Turns out he had two in hand and I get Dark Depths killed.

Round 4: vs. Dragon Stompy

This is a friend. I lent him my deck. My sideboard has 3 Leylines. Ugh.

Game 1: He has hand of Hanweir Garrison x 3 + Rabble. My first Dredge whiffs and I’m too slow to keep going.

+3 Contagion
-2 Phatasmagorian
-1 Shambling Shell

Game 2: Turn zero Leyline. GG.

Overall 2-2

Overall, I really like the deck. I’m certain I would’ve had the game verse Maverick if I did not misplay with the Therapy. I’m still struggling with sideboarding but I think I’m understanding the dimensions of the deck a little bit better. Please tell me if I’ve done anything wrong. Manaless Dredge I really want to improve with, as it feels so powerful, so convoluted (at times) and a real blast to play (especially when you need to beat hate). Yeap. Also, critiques on my main deck and sideboard would be helpful. Metagame is pretty diverse here in Melbourne Australia, but it’s getting quite fair overall.

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Originally Posted by ChemicalBurns

Overall, I really like the deck. I’m certain I would’ve had the game verse Maverick if I did not misplay with the Therapy. I’m still struggling with sideboarding but I think I’m understanding the dimensions of the deck a little bit better. Please tell me if I’ve done anything wrong. Manaless Dredge I really want to improve with, as it feels so powerful, so convoluted (at times) and a real blast to play (especially when you need to beat hate). Yeap. Also, critiques on my main deck and sideboard would be helpful. Metagame is pretty diverse here in Melbourne Australia, but it’s getting quite fair overall.

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Why do you remove so often ichorid? It is an important card, and the best one to produce bridge tokens in blocked board positions. I would remove prized amalgam before ichorid any day.

Also I think in your last game going down to 1 phantasmagorian is a bit low, especially in a MU that can be quite fast.

Otherwise I am surprised by the 3 DR for 4 dedicated DR targets, I would do the contrary any day (in fact, it is exactly what I do, 3 dedicated (flayer + 2 WR) for 4 DR) as DR without dedicated target can be quite good (tokens, trolls, CotA,...) while a dedicated DR target without DR is useless.

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Originally Posted by dte

Why do you remove so often ichorid?

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Maybe to keep blue card count high?

Im not sure if rider and griselbrand should share the deck. i thinkg it's one or the other to rise consistency.

And how did you feel with just 2 chacellor? Did it worth?

Thanks for the responses!

Phantas I trim in non-DRS MUs but going so low may definitely be wrong. I tend to go less all-in on Phantas in post-board games because of hate and needing to preserve cards in hand for Force/Rider. But you're right that 1 may be too low, as you have no avenue for the explosive draws he provides.

Ichorid I tend to trim because in multiples he always ends up being kind of redundant (only one has enough food, etc.) and the mentioned blue count, though I'm well aware that I'm likely sideboarding incorrectly. What would you recommend I trim in these matchups? Again, still kind of bad at this SBing thing.

I like Grisel as just flying lifelink beater that can mill you, and also lets you draw cards for FoW if needed when in play. Also gets fed to icky nicely. I agree that so many DR targets may be unnecessary. Grisel is a luxury I'll cut for more redundancy.

Chancellor was great. I want to fit a 3rd. It and Force of Will in the main make the deck look super-sexy vs combo.

I'm switching my main deck to the BoM Top 8 list, -1 Chancellor, +1 Amalgam and a SB of:

4 Shoal
3 Contagion
3 Faerie
2 MB Trap
2 Unmask
1 Ashen Rider

Though I'm keen to trim Ashen and Traps for 3 Pharaoh (D&T's Thalias are very frustrating, and it's getting popular here).

Thanks for feedback as always. :)

Sorry for the double post, but have another 2-2 to report.

Round 1: vs White Stompy

A close friend whose list I crafted, so I knew exactly what I needed to fight. I kept a zero Dredger hand with a Probe and Wraith, but whiffed on getting anything into the bin to discard. I'm really feeling the lack of shells here... He casts a Thalia, then a Seer and I can't get going and die.

+4 Disrupting Shoal
+3 Contagion
+2 Unmask
-2 Nether Shadow
-2 Phantasmagorian
-2 Bridge from Below
-3 Chancellor of the Annex

Chancellor seemed weak vs Cavern. But so is Shoals I guess. Need to fight RiP and Priest. And Thalia, I guess.

Game 2: Dredge a Stinky to start with but whiff. Have to Force his t2 Thalia and then can't cleanup discard Stinky. Get Thought-Knotted and die.

Thalia is very rough, I find.

Round 2: vs Grixis Delver

Game 1: He has t1 DRS I have turn one discard Troll. Upkeep he goes to eat it and then I go nuts, Wraithing and then draw step Dredging into a tonne of gas. I think Narcos go to bin and in resp. to trigger I pitch a bunch of Amalgams to a Phantas milled too, to trigger these. I shred apart his hand, have a tonne of power on board and then brute force DR Flayer (he Forces), do it again and Amalgams enter for the kill.

+3 Contagion
-2 Nether Shadow
-1 Force of Will

I have a similar start - turn one DRS but I have Wraith to get the action started. He misses his second land and has double Delver. He forgets to fetch green on t1, so I can Dredge in his second main, hitting Narco and Amalgam. Dredge into an absurd amount of Narcos on t2 (I think I had a Probe too), shred his hand, DR Flayer and have lethal on board next turn. He flipped Surgical to Delvers next turn, hehe.

Yeah sometimes this deck is nuts.

Round 3: 4c Loam

Game 1: He has a Lili I laugh at and kill him quickly.

+3 Contagion
+2 Unmask
+3 Faerie Macabre
-4 Force of Will
-2 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Prized Amalgam
-1 Chancellor of the Annex

Sideboarding is a mess and something I didn't really care about. Because Leylines.

Time to go to the casino.

Game 2: Mulls to 3, hits Leyline.

Game 3: Never hits Leylines, I win with idiots.

Round 4: vs Death & Taxes

Game 1: I should know to mull right? -.- Anyway, Probe and Wraith hand with zero Dredgers, don't hit any, get Thaliaed into Prelate and die.

Side same as Round 1.

Game 2: Hand is super strong with Unmask, Force + Shoal and some stinkies. Put Stinky in bin he Cavern on Human, and casts Thalia. I look at my counters and cry. He follows up with an uncounterable Cage and I scoop it up.

White hate creatures are proving difficult, though the DRS matches feel super easy. I think I need some Vengeful Pharaohs, would really fix these MUs nicely.

Anyway, again, questions and comments on how I board would be much appreciated.

Vs. Grixis I wouldn't have boarded at all. That MU is just ridiculously good. Chancellor keeps away DRS for a turn and after that you just go nuts on his ass. Keep threatening with the combo kill while you just aggro them to death.

Vs. the white decks - their main point is stopping your combo plan, it is something you should expect them to do (i.e: Don't rely on the combo finish vs. D&T). They still can't handle your armada of creatures. It's bad practice to side out Nether Shadows and Bridges vs those decks. Keep Shadows on defense, block their big, bad creature, get tokens and kill them on the backswing. They can't handle your snowballing - they have to find the hate, otherwise they'll probably die.

Hi, i read this forum since few months and it will be my first post. I think the deck is "finish" and perfect for Legacy. Only 3-4 card is different depending on the player. The deck can do amazing stuff. Sadly i think people will put more grave-hate in the next month cause manaless start to do some result (2nd at a Star cyty game, top8 at BOM Paris), that's not a lot but that's a start.

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Originally Posted by Michael Keller

I'm also beginning to wonder if it's time for Vengeful Pharaoh to shine. Sandbagging it and dumping it off Phantasmagorian seems pretty good against Thalia v1.0 and Containment Priest.

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I play test Vengeful Pharaoh and yes it shine. Death and taxeswill be more present and other deck starting to get Recruiter of the Guard MD because it's an amazing tutor. With people playing more and more this card, Containment Priest will be more likely to be in side than Grafdigger's Cage or RIP. Vengeful Pharaoh is amazing sometimes. He can kill the Containment priest and your opponent can't counter it. So you don't have FOW, not anti-hate, if your opponent have priest, you still can win, and that's amazing.

Moreover the card is not only good against hate, it really shine agasint some aggro deck like Eldrazy and D&T and even reanimator ! Reanimator really can't win, i play a lot against reanimator and manaless dredge get crush but not with the little Phraraoh. If he reanimate Elesh Nor most of the time it's over, but now the man can't attack you, your opponent must deal all the damage and kill you in 1 turn or you will kill Elesh with the pharaoh and kill him at your turn, and he can't wait cause the prized will come. It's not always the win cause he can reanimate Elesh again but that give you the game like in 80% of match.

In addition, Pharaoh is cool against all control deck with few creature like Loam deck or grixis delver.

I will try it but in some match, even if the opponent get a cage, with 4 Pharaoh and a progenitus you can win with the draw of your opponent's empty library. But maybe not :tongue:

(Sorry for english misstake, it's not my first language)

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Originally Posted by Xenio

(Sorry for english misstake, it's not my first language)

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Welcome. You're english is fine (it's better than fine, it's good), way better than my french and most Americans don't even know a second language (unsure about the Common Wealth folks).

Lately, the discussion is down to FoW or CotA. And, at a macro level, spy vs. non-spy. Let us know how you perform with the deck.

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Originally Posted by Xenio

Hi, i read this forum since few months and it will be my first post.

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Welcome to the cult!

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Originally Posted by ahg113

Lately, the discussion is down to FoW or CotA. And, at a macro level, spy vs. non-spy. Let us know how you perform with the deck.

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I play manaless since few years, and during the last 7 months i try all version (except horde mode, wich is just not competitive). I do a tournament of 20-30 personne each week.
The 2 first week i go with balustrade spy and was 4-0 each time. After, people add hate on her side, real hate not faerie or surgical extraction. And i did 3-1 / 2-2/ 1-3 ^^ So balustrad spy is good if no one have hate.
About the first game victory I think you win 90% of the time with no-spy list, and 95% with spy list. If nobody got a brain and go to a GP without hate, you can have luck and win (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...?DeckID=106627). This list only get anti-DRS side.

I try the Kelpie list, but since prized amalgam is released this list with spy or wirlpool is better.

I play with disturbing shoal in the side since 4 month, i put the force two month ago and play FOW main deck last month. The only value to play FOW in the side is to surprised the opponent, but in a GP or a meta where people know you play them, it's better to have them MD.
About shoal, by siding this card, it will be usefull (in the best case) for only 25% of your game. I have some in side and nearly never take them.

FOW is fucking op and is a monster. People fear a lot the speed of manaless and dredge. Not because the deck is fast. But they have the illusion after the game 1, even if you kill them in 4 turn they are helpless against you. So in game 2-3 they really fear you, so them can missplay. And it's in this case that FOW is amazing. Agaisnt D&T, people will rush RIP T2 unless play Thalaia T2 and RIP T3. FOW is the antihate who can destroy all hate (except leyline).
Moreover FOW can counter only response that some deck have (UR delver for exemple, which only have cage in side to block you).

My point of vue about CoA is particular, i think this card is most of the time... useless.
Youhou this card slow the opponent, you will concede T3 and not T2 ! Against hate this card is useless, it won't make you win, against an opponent without hate... pls man you play manaless, you already have win if he have nothing !
But (there si always a but) some player (idiot) think they will get the hate with Brainstorm/ponder and in this case CotA can be good.

So i have 4 of the in side against reanimator, show and tell, strom, belcher. Well agasint all combo deck. To slow and with luck do an early DR on CoA.

MD i play contagion, cause it's destroy shaman.

My current list have the package of all manaless, i will only write the card who matter in the list :
- 4 FOW
- 4 prized Amalgam
- 2 wirlpool
- 1 Flayer
- 3 Nether shadow
- 2 Contagion

I like it this way, maybe i can add 1 Contagion and remove a Nether shadow.
I nearly always side out the Nether shadow, 1 Phantasmagorian, Contagion if useless and a bridge if the Pharaoh enter.

My side is :
- 4 CoA
- 3 Disturbing shoal
- 2 Faerie macabre
- 3 Vengeful Pharaoh
- 2 Balustrad Spy
- 1 Progenitus

I side Progenitus against Miracle and Progenitus and Balustrad spy agaisnt reanimator and show and tell. And that's not a troll.
Last week i play against reanimator, i try to exhume and in response i discard the spy with Phantasmagorian (even if i got 2 FOW in hand). So i reanimate the Spy, he reanimate Elesh nor. And I win the game with this moove.

The side is manaless is hard to do i think, and not yet perfect. You need card who will make you win and that's hard to find, cause you need card you can play for free. For now I want to remove the shoal, but i don't know wich card add instead. Maybe white Leyline like M. Keller.

I so hope to see the day a Reanimator pilot Reanimates a Balustrade Spy from my yard only to target me. I have already lived the dream vs. S&T.

As far as SB-ing is concerned - another big question is when to actually sideboard. Sometimes you're better off just trying to outrace your opponent.

Since manaless is so dead to something like Leyline or RIP, is there any thought to put something like Elvish Spirit Guide for Nature's Claim, running a Savannah for like Natures Claim and maybe Wispmare? It feels like an opponent mulliganning to 1 and that 1 being Leyline and just scooping seems.... odd.

Am I just missing some interactions the deck already has in most boards that I'm just not seeing? I understand playing around stuff like Crypt and Surgical, but stuff that is just an instant win seem off.

Well... Just try doing the math behind and having the Claim and a green manasource in hand and your opponent not having a counter for it. I guess the result'll be pretty self explanatory.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Well... Just try doing the math behind and having the Claim and a green manasource in hand and your opponent not having a counter for it. I guess the result'll be pretty self explanatory.

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Get naturels claim : 40% (4 un the deck)
Get a green source (4 driad arbor + 4 guide) : 65%
-> could use nature's claim : 40*65= 26%
Chance the enemy don't get a counter (4 daze + 4 FOW) : 35%
-> total against a deck who dont get a counter : 9,1%...

Probablility to get a leyline if go until Mulligan 1 with 4 leyline un the deck : 83%.

Dont try to fight ligne ley (and i didn't concidere the mulligan to get a counter)

Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Xenio

Get naturels claim : 40% (4 un the deck)
Get a green source (4 driad arbor + 4 guide) : 65%
-> could use nature's claim : 40*65= 26%
Chance the enemy don't get a counter (4 daze + 4 FOW) : 35%
-> total against a deck who dont get a counter : 9,1%...

Probablility to get a leyline if go until Mulligan 1 with 4 leyline un the deck : 83%.

Dont try to fight ligne ley (and i didn't concidere the mulligan to get a counter)

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I guess that makes sense. I'm assuming they would leave in some counterspells to deal with Dread Return or Therapy too.

Good call. And yes, that'd be a very valid assumption. It's one of the few things they have that can prevent us from trampling them like a puny insect.

What real deck runs both countermagic, and Leyline?

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Originally Posted by Parcher

What real deck runs both countermagic, and Leyline?

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Those that exist in the minds of people who've never played a Legacy tournament in their life and haven't the slighest idea of how this deck or basic mathematics work (and hence are capable of thinking Nature's Claim is a viable plan).

Oh wait, to answer your question, none. At all.

It amuses me to no end though.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Oh wait, to answer your question, none. At all.

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Some Tezzerator play Force and Ligneley. But only some random player who love the deck play Tezzerator.

But the result with the counter is still true agasint grafdigger's cage or Rest in piece. Since go try Nature's claim plan, you don't have Force (or your deck is not dredge anymore with 16 no-dredge cards).

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Originally Posted by Xenio

Some Tezzerator play Force and Ligneley. But only some random player who love the deck play Tezzerator.

But the result with the counter is still true agasint grafdigger's cage or Rest in piece. Since go try Nature's claim plan, you don't have Force (or your deck is not dredge anymore with 16 no-dredge cards).

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So a small part of the players that play one fringe deck..?

Well, I guess we're in trouble then.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Well... Just try doing the math behind and having the Claim and a green manasource in hand and your opponent not having a counter for it. I guess the result'll be pretty self explanatory.

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AFter running the green side myself with Dryad Arbor in the main for quite a while, I can honestly say it's not all that great compared to current options. I favour Blue FWIW.
Add to that, Chalice of the Void kills Claims. And Chalice has been getting a lot more air-time around me, dunno about you guys.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

What real deck runs both countermagic, and Leyline?

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Exactly - a deck like manaless just has to take the good (lack of interaction) with the bad (no answer to certain cards)



Now in my experience, siding out some Ichorid's was just fine before they printed Prized Amalgam. Now I feel it's not a great move, as Icky & Narcomoeba are the only ways to get PA on the field.
Seeing as your very first dredge could place some PA in the yard, I want to see Icky ASAP.
How are you guys on Icky, post game1?

I've never boarded out any copies of Ichorid as of yet. They present your best plan B - death by beats. 3 damage per turn, produce tokens at the end of each.

Yeah I can only remember siding out a single Icky (and Shells) back when I was riding the Green side, but since then Fearless (Spy) or Blue (Force) means there's other things I'd rather side out than Icky. It's just so important to this deck

Siding out Ichorid is always wrong, always.

I've been goldfishing and Cockatricing Manaless a lot in between being chained to my desk for exam study, and finally got to take the deck for a spin in the recent sanctioned tournament here in Melbourne, Australia. Anyway, second with a deck people call a “gimmick”, a deck people kick me out of Cockatrice for… People should hurry up and respect it – the deck is genuinely good. I put my money with my mouth is by bringing it to this more “serious” (although small) tournament and the deck proved to be truly awesome. I fought through a lot of tough situations and hate, as well generally overwhelmed opponents who were unprepared. The brute strength of the deck is real – and it also had a lot of strength against combo with (what I believe) should be the standard blue package. I did so many things that simple discard like Unmask never could’ve done. I highly recommend it.

20 players showed up to with the room being split between fair decks (Delver, Shardless D&T) and combo decks (mainly Reanimator, S&S, two Storm players). There was a smattering of other stuff too. The list I brought was this:

Free Creatures: (19)
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
3 Nether Shadow
4 Bridge from Below

Dredgers/Discard: (16)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Phantasmagorian

Disruption: (10)
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Force of Will

Acceleration: (8)
4 Street Wraith
4 Gitaxian Probe

Ressurrection: (7)
4 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Whirlpool Rider

Sideboard: (15)
2 Chancellor of the Annex
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Vengeful Pharaoh
2 Contagion
1 Unmask

Very similar to the list that Top 8ed BoM Paris. The main toss-up I had was the 3rd Nether Shadow slot, which could've gone to either a Shambling Shell or the third Chancellor. It was close between all three, and I think after this tournament I might move to the third Chancellor, but anyway.

There were 5 rounds of Swiss, cut to Top 8.

Round 1: vs. Grixis Delver

G1: I crush him. He has turn one DRS, but I have Phantasmagorian, and quickly create a monstrous army on my turn two.

-2 Nether Shadow
-1 Dread Return
-1 Bridge from Below
+2 Chancellor of the Annex
+2 Contagion

Sideboarded perhaps too heavy, with a lot of cards to ensure I could stop a turn one Deathrite. I’ve been told to sideboard lightly for this, and maybe the additional Chancellors aren’t necessary.

G2: He goes on the play. Basically the same as G1. He has a Surgical that he uses a bit too late, and he ends up choosing Dread Return. He has an Angler and Delver in play, but I get a bunch of Zombies thanks to double Bridge and some Amalgams entering. I quickly eat him up.

Round 2: vs. ANT

Game 1: Our decks both crap on us, with me whiffing on enough free creatures or Therapies, and only having some anaemic Nether Shadow beats, while he shuffles off every Ponder and bottoms every Preordain. Eventually I come to needing to hit a third creature to resurrect Chancellor for the win. Alas, I do not get there and die to Tendrils the next turn.

-2 Bridge from Below
-2 Phantasmagorian
-1 Dread Return
-2 Nether Shadow
+4 Disrupting Shoal
+2 Chancellor of the Annex
+1 Unmask

I think cutting Flayer (-1 Flayer, +1 Dread Return) is probably a better option here, as I only want Chancellor to finish the game anyway.

Game 2: He goes on the draw. I have turn zero Chancellor, and then get some Street Wraith cycling going; he Infernals for a Cabal Ritual, and the turn after I shred his hand with a Ichorid and Cabal Therapy (discarded to a Phantasmagorian, I think) naming Cabal Ritual, of course. He has Chain of Vapor in hand that I also eventually end up Therapying away, and then I get my Chancellor in play.

Game 3: He goes on the draw. I have a pretty nutty hand – Probe, Force, Shoal, Narco, Whirlpool + some Dredgers, so we snap this up and are off to the races. He has a slow one, and I end up bringing the Zombie beats, Shoal pitching Probe to counter a Xantid Swarm and Cabal Therapying away an Empty the Warrens (I'd seen his hand off a previous missed Therapy, he Brainstormed in response to this second Therapy but I still hit), which would've made enough blockers to stop my lethal next turn - I do see a Tendrils of Agony though. I then Force his Cabal Ritual to hopefully stop his combo turn but he has a second that he'd hidden with Brainstorm and rituals into a Tendrils to bring him up to sixteen life. Luckily I have more than sixteen power of idiots next turn and win.

Round 3: vs. UB Reanimator

Game 1: Opponent keeps a sketchy one with only a Petal and Careful Study. He whiffs on land with his Reanimate and binned fatties staring at him. I bring the beats, shred his hand with Therapy (naming Reanimate).

+3 Faerie Macabre
+4 Disrupting Shoal
+2 Chancellor of the Annex
+1 Unmask
-3 Nether Shadow
-2 Phantasmagorian
-3 Bridge from Below
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound
-1 Dread Return

I don’t even know if cutting Flayer is correct, because he certainly is nice vs. Exhume, but my logic was if my opponent Reanimates him, I’m kind of in trouble. Then again, Chancellors are ripe targets anyway. Not sure about this.

Game 2: He goes on the play. He starts with a study binning Elesh and Griselbrand, and has a reasonable amount of lands. I Therapy him at some stage which he Dazes. He draw-gos for awhile, eventually casting a Show and Tell he topdecks. Luckily, my hand is Force of Will, Narcomoeba, Shoal x 3! I Force pitching Narco, he Dazes, and I Shoal back, winning the war. I then beat him down for the win.

Round 4: vs. BUG Delver

We’re top of Swiss. ID. I kind of wanted to play this one since it’s a favourable matchup. But anyway.

Round 5: vs. Death & taxes

Again, can ID.

End up second in the Swiss.

Quarters: vs. BURG Delver

I again encounter good friend Steve in the Top 8. This is a pretty favourable matchup, but we lose game 1.

Game 1: I keep a seven with Dredgers, a Probe and a Force. Unfortunately, he has turn one Deathrite and I need to wait to find a Wraith or Phantas to overcome it. I think a second Deathrite joins the party, along with a Delver and Snapcaster. I find the Street Wraith, but a little too late. I possibly should’ve considered Forcing the Snapcaster (prior to that, he’d only had a Deathrite staring at me), as I was starting to discard good cards for the Deathrite to eat anyway.

+2 Contagion
+2 Vengeful Pharaoh
+2 Chancellor of the Annex
-2 Bridge from Below
-1 Force of Will
-1 Dread Return
-2 Nether Shadow

Game 2: I go on the draw. I mulligan a strong seven, with Dredgers and Force, but feel I need to at least hit a Wraith or Phantas to beat inevitable turn 1 DRS. I mulligan into essentially the same hand, and work from there. I think Steve Ponders, and then doesn’t do much. I eventually bin a Dredger (Stinky) and he Surgicals it. Well. I do the same next turn but luckily my draw is a Street Wraith – because he has a second Surgical, but I cycle Wraith, getting the Dredging going and Flayer him from there.

Game 3: He goes on the draw. This game is exciting. I think I mulligan again, finding a Contagion and Force in my hand. Steve mulls deep. At one stage, he plays a Deathrite (ok, Contagion covers that) and then a Cage (!) which I Force. He only has an Underground Sea and a Wasteland, so my Dredgers are safe. He deploys a Delver which starts to beat me down, while I’m waiting to draw to hand size. Luckily, the first Dredge reveals a Pharaoh to extinguish the Delver (and keep me alive!) and then I discard some cards to Phantas – dumbly I discard a Therapy which he eats with DRS before I Contagion it. I could’ve just Contagioned it first and then discard and shredded his hand of any Bolts that would kill me (I’m on 1) if he topdecks a red source. Anyway, with his poor mana situation, I eventually make a bunch of creatures and quickly kill him.

Semis: vs. BUG Delver

Game 1: A pretty easy affair; I overpower his turn two Deathrite which he finds with a Ponder (it’s too slow) and he basically can’t do anything while Ichorids and Amalgams eat him up.

+2 Contagion
+2 Vengeful Pharaoh
+2 Chancellor of the Annex
-2 Bridge from Below
-1 Force of Will
-1 Dread Return
-2 Nether Shadow

Game 2: He goes on the play. He has a turn one Deathrite while I’ve taken a mulligan into a mediocre hand. He then lands a second and third Deathrite with a lot of mana up, while I’m discarding to handsize random junk, looking for Phantas and a Wraith to overpower these Deathrites. He eventually gets a Delver which kills me anyway.

Game 3: He goes on the play. I think I keep a hand with Wraith. He leads on turn one Delver, flips it and gets me real low as I cycle Wraith and start churning through my deck. He Surgicals away all my Narcomoebas, which is rough, but I Dredge enough to get three Ichorids, a Pharaoh a few other goodies. I misplay and discard a Bridge to hand size with a Pharaoh in my yard. I Dredge into my second Bridge and he then opts to attack to kill his Delver and exile my Bridges – but then plays a second Delver, ugh. It’s not the end of the world though, as Ickys beat him down and two Amalgams bring the beats. I’ve shredded his hand of some stuff with multiple Therapies but he topdecks Brainstorm which finds him – Cage. An Amalgam trades with his Delver and then I have one left to beat him down from nine to zero. He Darkblasts it once, giving him an extra turn. I know he has Decay in hand from Therapies… I take him to one life. If he topdecks a non-fetch land he can Decay Amalgam and win from there…His topdeck… A Misty. PHEW.

Finals: vs. BR Reanimator

Game 1: He lootings and bins some fatties, Probe him and see he can kill me next turn. Joy. He has a Thoughtseize too, but rather than use it + Reanimate, he opts to cast Animate Dead on Griselbrand to save his life total. I Force buying me one extra turn. My Dredge for turn needs to hit me a Narco and Therapy and I do not get there. He Griselbrand + Children + Tendrils me.

+3 Faerie Macabre
+4 Disrupting Shoal
+2 Chancellor of the Annex
+1 Unmask
-3 Nether Shadow
-2 Phantasmagorian
-3 Bridge from Below
-1 Flayer of the Hatebound
-1 Dread Return

Game 2: In this game, my opponent makes a mistake. I beat him down a little early game and he Thoughtseizes away a Shoal (which can only pitch Amalgams anyway). He eventually Exhumes a Griselbrand and I put into play… Chancellor of the Annex. He realises he screwed up, can’t combo and he goes to one life from drawing cards. I get there next turn.

Game 3: Another back and forth, he Thoughtseizes me, taking a counterspell and Time Walking me. Luckily I topdeck Faerie Macabre, and his Reanimate fizzles next turn. Phew! Dodged a bullet. He then Faithless Lootings. I draw for turn – Unmask. Now – I need to discard to hand size to get my machine going – I can bin Phantasmagorian, and then next turn, if I get one, I can pitch everything to it except my Unmask, put Phantas in my hand and then Unmask him pitching it – essentially using all my resources. Although this is the rational higher EV play, in my mind, my gut tells me to Unmask now, because my opponent seemed relatively unfazed and confidant by topdecked Faerie (surely some reaction to my lucksacking is warranted!). Although I’ll be double time walked, he’ll just be topdecking. But instinct is quelled by rational – but reading my opponent is something I should’ve considered here. He Exhumes Griselbrand next turn, I pitch Rider to my Phantasmagorian to mill a bunch of my library, so I can likely kill him next turn, but then he Tendrils me. What would’ve happened if I cast that Unmask… I don’t know. Maybe it was correct to do so immediately.

EDIT:
Takeaways:
- Pharaoh was awesome. I didn't play D&T where I know I wanted him, but he certainly shined vs. these Goyf Delver decks.
- Countermagic was awesome - really proved its worth vs. Reanimator and ANT. The blue package actually feels insane at times.
- I think I might find room for the 3rd Chancellor and free up some sideboard slots.
- I missplayed and the deck punished me at times - but when played well (blind hit Therapies, etc.) it rewarded me. Always something I love from a Magic deck.
- Mulliganing is a real skill with this deck, and something I need to get better at. I think there were times where I should've mulled, and others where I should've taken the risk. Anyway.

Congrats on the finish. Great report!

Just played some Leagues with the list posted above. 3-2 and 4-1 respectively. Annoyingly MODO didn't give me any prizes -.- Ugh.

1st League
0-2 vs. Storm
0-2 vs. Grixis Delver
2-1 vs. Eldrazi Stompy
2-0 vs. UR Delver
2-1 vs. BUG Delver

2nd League
2-0 vs. Eldrazi Stompy
2-0 vs. White Eldrazi
2-0 vs. Shardless BUG
0-2 vs. BUG Delver
2-0 vs. Storm

In the first league, Storm and Grixis ended up being a massacre, as they Probe/Therapied me into oblivion. Leyline of Sanctity would've been strong here and I might try some moving forward - especially since it protects your countermagic from discard, which is really cool. Eldrazi I beat with them whiffing on finding Leylines in one of the games. UR Delver was a cake walk. White Eldrazi was even easier, with Shoals being super powerful and Force of Will ate a Vryn Wingmare g1 which would've prevented me comboing. Shardless was, again, another cake walk. BUG Delver I lost because game 1, after defending my Troll with Wraith against his t1 Deathrite, I proceed to Dredge 6 into a Thug and then Dredge 4 into nothing. I can't get going after that, annoyingly. G2 I lose because I pitch my hand to Phantasmagorian, but the two Dredgers I have are both Imps - and he has Surgical. If they were different, I think I would've been able to keep going and get there. Ugh. I'll chalk that loss up to variance, especially the first game where I whiffed on Dredgers (or a Phantas). Otherwise the deck was a monster that easily could've 5-0ed. Against Storm Chancellor stopped him dead in his tracks early, and I had Force of Will and double Wraith and Unmask to speed through my deck, find three creatures and a DR, Unmasked myself for Chancellor and DRed it to lock up the game. Sweet!

Congratulation ChemicalBurns for your result! Yes Manaless is not a deck that everyone likes because he is complicate to understand/cheap/no-biland. But the people who don’t respect the deck loose more against him. For the side, I still think that shoal is useless most of the time and need luck to be usefull, and I want to had cards against Ad nauseam but I don’t think the white leyline give us the win.

I think you get luck against Ad Nauseam, with all the discard turn 1 and he can combo turn 1 the match up is really not for manaless dredge.

I read some one telling he don’t know when mulligan :
- if you have 3 draw in hand (gitaxiane probe or sreet wraith) you shouldn’t mulligan
-If you have one or zero is worth it to mulligan (but never go under 6). (I calculate some probability to - If you have 2, it’s a risk.
This week end I played Manaless dredge on the Eternal week end (around 250 players) I think they were 3 manaless in the tournament. I finish 5-1-3, not awesome and I stop take note in round 4 because my concentration was lower by writing the event of the game. And yesterday I play the trial (150 players) for six rounds and finish 4-2. The list is nearly the same ChemicalBurns with 2 contagion instead of the chancellor main deck.

The side is :
4 Chancellor of the annex
3 Disrupting Shoal
3 Vengefull pharaoh
2 Balustrad Spy
1 Progenitus
2 Faerie macabre


This is my report for the trial Legacy :

Round 1 VS Omnishow

Game 1: He takes the play and play preordrain, I draw and discard a golgari grave-troll. On turn 2 he play ponder and an other preordrain, I play safe and don’t use street wraith in his turn, wait for my draw and use street wraoth in my turn looking for a cabal that I don’t get. Turn 3, he play ponder, preordrain and brainstorm and I don’t know what is this deck, I don’t think about omnishow and think he play high tide. I animate 2 ichoride and try a cabal, he concede.

+4 chancellor +1 progenitus (against high tide)
- 2 Contagion -1 Bridge from below

Game 2: He takes the play. I got phantamagorian, dredger, whirlpool rider and progenitus in hand. If iit’s high tide the progenitus need to be in library but I got phantasmagoria to shuffle him so I keep. He plays a ponder, I discard a phantasmagorian. He plays show and tell on turn 2 and I discover the his deck^^ in resp I use phantasmagorian to discard 2 dredger and a cabal. He drop an old enchant which is Omniscience but worse, I drop whirlpool rider with 4 card in hand, dredge 20 cards. He concedes in my turn when the 2 ichoride and 1 neither shadow come in play.

Round 2 VS Ad Nauseam

Game 1: He starts, play gitaxian prob, then use cabal therapie my Force. I draw and pass. He play another cabal, after thinking during 2 mins he says Force again and damnit he gets the other I top deck ! And he kill me.

+4 Chancellor +2Faerie macabre
-2 Contagion -2 Neither shadow -1 bridge from below -1 phantasmagorian

Game 2: Turn 1 he cabal naming a force I don’t have (I have one faeri) and play lotus petal then 2 black ritual and ad nauseam to 3 life point. He don’t get a lotus petal so can’t start to get mana. He finishes is turn and go to 7 card in his hand, I draw and discard phantasmagorian. Turn 2 he play LED and pass… I reanimate ichorid, attack and kill him. He just fizzles :p

Game 3: He kill me turn one, black ritual into cabal therapy into a lot of cards and kill me.

Round 3 VS Stoneblade I think

Game 1: nothing relevant, he plays ponder, brainstorm, swords my amalgam and a stoneforge mystic, he can’t stop me

+3 Vengefull pharaoh
-1 Neither shadow -1Bridge -1 phantasmagorian

Game 2: He mull to 4, play a brainstorm, I discard, he pass. I try to reanimate ichoride, he play containment priest in reponse I force her, he concedes.

Round 4 VS BUG delver

I lose game 1 after he discard me with thoughtseize and play a shaman I can pass throw.

+3 Vengefull pharaoh
-1 Neither shadow -1Bridge -1 phantasmagorian

Game 2: I got a force in hand and a street wraith. He play shaman turn 1, my street wraith help and he plays 2 other shaman turn 2. I don’t force and think I get go throw by winning in my turn. I get 2 creatures on board and 2 bridge. I cabal to get 3 creatures. With the cabal I see he have nothing in hands so I dread return whirlpool rider and lose my force, dredre 4 times. He sees I can dread return and other whirlpool rider look the clock and concedes.

Game 3: He takes the draw, thoughtseize me, I draw an pass. And get some delver and tarmo. He chirurgical somethings and destroy me with his creatures. Can’t do anything thougseize make loose so much turn

Round 5 VS 4C reanimate (griselbrand + tendril of agony in the deck + the little white soldier)

His list was not the best, due to money I think.

Game 1: He mulligan to 4, turn 2 I reanimate ichoride and use 2 cabal with a bridge. His hand was destroyed so he can’t win.

+4 Chancellor +3 Vengefull pharaoh +2 Faerie macabre
-2 Contagion +3 neither shadow -1 bridge -1 phantasmagorian

Game 2: I get a faerie and a chancellor so I keep. Turn 1 he start playing mana spell and burning wish into a show and tell that I don’t expect. He drop griselbrand, I drop Chancellor. He got no drop land left so I know he can’t play card with the chancellor but he didn’t notice, draw 14 with griselbrand and play a lotus petal which was counter. He finishes his turn and discard. I reanimate ichoride and miss a cabal. After a 5min-turn he only play chrom mox. I do nothing spectacular. And after and other 5min-turn he concede. Chancellor op !

Round 6 VS BUG Delver

It was the last game and I want the win to get some TIX points so I don’t take note so it what i remember.

Game 1: He plays shaman turn1, I draw and discard. He plays another shaman I force him. He tries to exile my dredger, I recycle street wraith, dredge get a phantasmagorian, discard 3 and play my contagion on the shaman. So the two shamans was dead,easy win now. He gets nothing expect a Jace and delver 1/1.

Game 2: T1 Cage

Game 3: He gets Delver T1 and delver + shaman T2, attack with the Delver. I go to 19, than 13 on turn 3 due to two flying delver, I force (go to 12) a surgical. At my turn 3 I get ichorid, hit for 3 and reanimate Flayer and kill the shaman (I fear for my ichoride). Turn 4 with 2 flying delver I go to 6. I play my turn 4, reanimate ichorid and kill one delver with the trigger of the flayer. I attack, he go down to 5 life points. Turn 5 he attack with the delver, i got 3 LP, get nothing more and concedes


Thoughts about the deck :
I play since 4 years manaless dredge and he is really more stronger than before, enemy with good hand and some matchup aren’t winnable but he still can do result but it’s hard to win a big tournament. Win against miracle is so easy but against deck with Shaman and thoughtseize main deck it’s hard.
The MD is fixed, and I think everyone should play this 60 because it’s the best (except for the switch chancellor/contagion I’m the only one who doing it). I want to cut a neither shadow to have another contagion. Force is amazing we now know that, Vengeful pharaoh is shinning is this meta even if that don’t make you win, it buy you time against aggro deck UR Delver/D&T or infect and it’s important. The secret tech with the balustrade spy is maybe not worth it to get him in the side (whirlpool rider can do the same but you lose your hand). More work on the side need to be done. Shoal is not efficient.
I will play the CDFL (French cup legacy) in three weeks and will try to get 3 or 4 white Leyline.

I love this deck, even if I ‘m starting playing infect this one is still my little baby that I love.

I honestly don't think MD Force of Will is worth it over Chancellor of the Annex, the card is not saving the game vs combo by itself and is losing time vs Deathrite Shaman which is enemy #1. I find my deepest runs with the deck are usually the ones where i grind thru all of the Deathrite decks, win the coin flip vs Eldrazi Leylines and Miracles doesnt even draw RIP more than Force of Will ever being clutch.

I am also pretty tempted to boot the combo for Pharoah and just grind games out, it screws over a lot of the decks that the combo is there for in the first place like Show&Tell, Reanimator etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I honestly don't think MD Force of Will is worth it over Chancellor of the Annex, the card is not saving the game vs combo by itself and is losing time vs Deathrite Shaman which is enemy #1. I find my deepest runs with the deck are usually the ones where i grind thru all of the Deathrite decks, win the coin flip vs Eldrazi Leylines and Miracles doesnt even draw RIP more than Force of Will ever being clutch.

I am also pretty tempted to boot the combo for Pharoah and just grind games out, it screws over a lot of the decks that the combo is there for in the first place like Show&Tell, Reanimator etc.

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To rebutt this, I ended up playing against Show and Tell (1 OmniTell, 2 Sneak & Show) in my recent League and main deck Force of Will was my saving grace. I had double Force of Will g1 to fight over a Show and Tell and then won the game next turn. Furthermore, I won post-board thanks to Disrupting Shoal pitching Prized Amalgam. Force main deck really saves your ass against combo, which I feel we are otherwise an extreme dog to. And as I referenced before, hitting things that can be problematic (eg. Wingmare, Thalia etc.) that appear g1 is also very powerful. Deathrite Shaman I feel we are well equipped to deal with as-is thanks to Wraith and Phantas, though I will agree on the strength of Chancellor. I think fitting both in is feasible; it just means we have to play a bit tighter and mulligan more wisely due to the diluted amount of Dredgers. Shell is still pretty mediocre anyway.

@Final Fortune, I think just making Manaless a grind machine is fine, but we do need those fast combo wins in certain situations. The deck offers a lot of different attack plans, whether it be via grind with creatures, a combo or ripping up our opponents hand, and removing one of these I feel is unwise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I am also pretty tempted to boot the combo for Pharoah and just grind games out, it screws over a lot of the decks that the combo is there for in the first place like Show&Tell, Reanimator etc.

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Seems like you changed your mind quite a bit since the last time this came up (see page 18 of the thread). Back in april you said pretty much the exact opposite.