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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
I think the art's gone to crap because it's so scripted now.
Veteran Bodyguard and Benalish Hero had the description: "Hero and Super-Hero, make one a girl." Like, that was it. So Schuler created two pieces of amazing art.
Now it's like a ten page description and includes reference pictures of the art/style guide. Nothing good will ever come out of that.
I was literally just talking with some friends about this very issue. My buddy asked if I wanted to go to the prerelease for the new set, and I was like "I have no idea, I haven't thought about it at all." So, I looked at some of the cards, and realized that Magic is basically dead to me for two reasons:
1. The art is no longer imaginative, evocative, interesting, etc.
2. Magic cards don't look like Magic cards anymore.
It all looks so digital. We're supposed to be in this world of fantasy and magic, and yet the game looks like it was made on a computer.
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Re: The current state of Magic
One thing they can't screw up is that feeling and smell of cracking packs.
Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
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Re: The current state of Magic
The very restrictive limitation for the artist (and WotC's rather shitty pay - cheap bastards) are some of the main reasons why many former staple artists of Mtg don't or just rarely work for WotC anymore. Digital art is also cheaper.
As for not looking like Magic cards, Google identifying freshly spoiled Amonkhet invocations as Yugioh cards takes the cake.
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Re: The current state of Magic
One thing I will say in Wizards's favor is that the font they've been using post-M15 looks a lot better than the old new one. Wish they'd incorporate it into the text boxes or make it a bit more pronouncedly unique. Or both.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KrzyMoose
I was literally just talking with some friends about this very issue. My buddy asked if I wanted to go to the prerelease for the new set, and I was like "I have no idea, I haven't thought about it at all." So, I looked at some of the cards, and realized that Magic is basically dead to me for two reasons:
1. The art is no longer imaginative, evocative, interesting, etc.
2. Magic cards don't look like Magic cards anymore.
It all looks so digital. We're supposed to be in this world of fantasy and magic, and yet the game looks like it was made on a computer.
Android: Netrunner literally has more organic-looking art than this supposedly fantasy card game.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
I think the art's gone to crap because it's so scripted now.
Veteran Bodyguard and Benalish Hero had the description: "Hero and Super-Hero, make one a girl." Like, that was it. So Schuler created two pieces of amazing art.
Now it's like a ten page description and includes reference pictures of the art/style guide. Nothing good will ever come out of that.
A bunch of classic artists were brought back for Time Spiral - Anson Maddocks, for example. While you can reasonably expect an artist's style to change and mature over the years, compare Fallen Ideal with something like Cyclopean Tomb or Breeding Pit.
They don't make cards like they used to. I still maintain that the Sue Ann Harkey era of art direction (roughly from Mirage through Tempest with 5th in as well) is hands-down the best era for Magic art.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jandax
One thing they can't screw up is that feeling and smell of cracking packs.
Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
Modern Masters 2.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
Modern Masters 2.
What, are you saying you didn't like your expensive mythic rare reprint being LP right out of the pack?
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Re: The current state of Magic
We are just becoming old, lads. Old people never like changes. Let the next generation come and let us become the moanig oldies with our pimped legacy and 93/94 decks.
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Re: The current state of Magic
I'm not OLD!!
I'm just saying, one of my neighbors let his yard get overrun by dandelions this summer, and I kinda want to off him and his whole family. I feel like no court would convict when presented with the evidence of how it was damaging my yard too.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
I'm not OLD!!
I'm just saying, one of my neighbors let his yard get overrun by dandelions this summer, and I kinda want to off him and his whole family. I feel like no court would convict when presented with the evidence of how it was damaging my yard too.
The leaves are actually very tasty if you get them young. Steamed, or fresh in a salad.
Roots are edible too, but I've never tried them. I hear they make good wine.
I'm old, but at least I'm an old hippie. :wink:
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
I was expecting to look at them and think "oh, it's just people complaining because things are different." Then I actually did look and... yeah, pretty mediocre. These probably look okay when shrunk down on a card but when blown up they're much worse.
It's kinda weird that Force of Will is probably the TCG with the best art right now. Yeah, I can see why the anime style might rub some people the wrong way and it can be too fanservice-y at times, but I think it's mostly pretty good and I actually really like the fact everything is full art (well, planeswalker-style full art).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
I think the art's gone to crap because it's so scripted now.
Veteran Bodyguard and Benalish Hero had the description: "Hero and Super-Hero, make one a girl." Like, that was it. So Schuler created two pieces of amazing art.
Now it's like a ten page description and includes reference pictures of the art/style guide. Nothing good will ever come out of that.
I find both of those arts you cited rather dull to look at, honestly. Not to say the current art doesn't have its issues, but I don't see Benalish Hero or Veteran Bodyguard as something to be nostalgic about.
I'm also dubious that being overly scripted is the issue. There was tons of great art I remember in Innistrad block (including my personal favorite art on an MTG card, Thalia Guardian of Thraben), and I believe the art was pretty scripted there too. It's more the general direction that seems to be a problem.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
...
I find both of those arts you cited rather dull to look at, honestly. Not to say the current art doesn't have its issues, but I don't see Benalish Hero or Veteran Bodyguard as something to be nostalgic about.
...
Something to keep in mind is that the old art had a lot more stylistic variety. If only a fraction of the cards looked like oversaturated CGI, then it would probably be a pleasant thing to have a few cards that are flashier that way, but the phrase 'all ketchup, no fries' comes to mind when I look at RIX.
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Re: The current state of Magic
So Standard is dead in my eyes. So many bans in last year.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
l33twash0r
So Standard is dead in my eyes. So many bans in last year.
I certainly do not understand how anyone could have even an iota of consumer confidence in standard given the last year.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Ramunap and Energy aren't combined 40% of the meta, they're combined 70%+. But I guess you can get that down to just 40% if you only count Temur Energy, and not the other six decks that are the exact same but with black splashes, or BUG Energy.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
l33twash0r
So Standard is dead in my eyes. So many bans in last year.
Standard is always boring. When you see all these bans, that's a GOOD THING. Why? it means they're taking risks. They're printing powerful cards, not watered-down Theros garbage. Standard with lots of bans is good news for Eternal formats.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MaximumC
Standard is always boring. When you see all these bans, that's a GOOD THING. Why? it means they're taking risks. They're printing powerful cards, not watered-down Theros garbage. Standard with lots of bans is good news for Eternal formats.
True
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MaximumC
Standard is always boring. When you see all these bans, that's a GOOD THING. Why? it means they're taking risks. They're printing powerful cards, not watered-down Theros garbage. Standard with lots of bans is good news for Eternal formats.
Nah, they're just getting worse at designing sets and balancing cards. Which was the one single thing they used to have going for them.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MaximumC
Standard is always boring. When you see all these bans, that's a GOOD THING. Why? it means they're taking risks. They're printing powerful cards, not watered-down Theros garbage. Standard with lots of bans is good news for Eternal formats.
Oh yeah, look at all those cards that tear up Legacy! Oh wait. Out of all the banned Standard cards, it was only Smuggler's Copter that barely broke through (maybe Emrakul, the Promised End in 12 Post, too, but I haven't followed the deck). Felidar Guardian couldn't even do jackshit in Modern. Then we have cards like Reflector Mage, Rampaging Ferocidon and Ramunap Ruins which are just laughable compared to real heavy hitters like JMS ans SFM. And energy is just highly parasitic gargabe.
They weren't really taking risks here - they're just piss-poor at balancing their main constructed format now. The most exciting card that really shook up things in Eternal was Walking Ballista (Edit: I forgot about Fatal Push, but that's just another removal spell). Other than that, we had a new Chandra, Nissa, Vital Force and other cards like Abrade and Hazoret the Fervernt, but those are hardly game-changers. The last few sets have been pretty boring from an Eternal point of view.
This is worst possible outcome. We don't get new toys to play with while WotC is going to dial back the power level.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
Nah, they're just getting worse at designing sets and balancing cards.
This is my take, too. It would have been very easy to print a few cards that involved removing energy, and yet they chose to make the mechanic something the other player couldn't interact with directly. It's unsurprising that bans were the eventual result. I hope this will be a good lesson.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Nah, it's just a case of "we still haven't figured out that counterspells and viable land destruction are required elements of balance" striking yet again.
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Re: The current state of Magic
To a certain degree? They've toned down counterplay across the board over the last few years. Some of this feels like they're really overdesigning sets based on trying to meet the demands of a pretty big body of market research and previous "lessons learned", which is pretty restrictive and also creates its own problems.
Take energy. Players complain when flagship mechanics don't show up in Standard (much like how people are complaining about tribal not being good enough now), so WotC pushes energy. They don't print interaction with it because they're worried that if they make interaction too strong, it will make players shy away from trying energy, and also force them to design cards that are way too parasitic outside of Kaladesh block - and that will make players complain too. Also, players don't like strong hosers printed in the same block as things they hose (see the outcry about Grafdigger's Cage when that was spoiled), and players don't like too many counters to the things they're doing because that can lead to frustrating games (see why all Wraths are five mana or conditional now).
The result is a monster that shoves everything else out of Standard and causes players to complain anyway.
The lesson here is to not listen to your players as much, because they don't know what they like and will complain about everything.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MaximumC
Standard is always boring. When you see all these bans, that's a GOOD THING. Why? it means they're taking risks. They're printing powerful cards, not watered-down Theros garbage. Standard with lots of bans is good news for Eternal formats.
Are you being sarcastic? Have you looked at the cards that got banned in Standard? They're garbage in Legacy. Their track record is a little better in Modern, but even there at best they're "okay" (Reflector Mage is probably the most notable of them) and some are essentially unplayable (basically everything banned in this announcement).
The bannings aren't a sign of them taking risks, they're a sign of them watering down the rest of Standard so that decks that normally wouldn't have been an issue are the best decks by far. There's been a lot more Legacy-calibur cards in the Standard blocks that didn't get bans, such as Innistrad or Return to Ravnica.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aggro_zombies
Take energy. Players complain when flagship mechanics don't show up in Standard (much like how people are complaining about tribal not being good enough now), so WotC pushes energy. They don't print interaction with it because they're worried that if they make interaction too strong, it will make players shy away from trying energy, and also force them to design cards that are way too parasitic outside of Kaladesh block - and that will make players complain too. Also, players don't like strong hosers printed in the same block as things they hose (see the outcry about Grafdigger's Cage when that was spoiled), and players don't like too many counters to the things they're doing because that can lead to frustrating games (see why all Wraths are five mana or conditional now).
Outcry over Grafdigger's Cage? There was barely any from what I can remember. There was some complaining about Cavern of Souls in this area but I think it would've been a lot less if not for Zac Hill's really stupid article that introduced the card.
Though even if there was outcry against Grafdigger's Cage, I don't think the problem is them not printing strong hosers in the same block as things they hose. It's them not even printing strong hoser cards in the next block. They don't put anti-graveyard cards in Shadow Over Innistrad block, okay. But then they didn't put any in Kaladesh block either, it took then until Amonkhet to print anything resembling playable graveyard hate. Similarly, no energy hate in Kaladesh block? Fine. But then in the subsequent blocks, the best we got is Solemnity, which is limited to White and is rather weak at what it does (if it either took away all energy counters when it entered the battlefield or cost less, I think it would have been more viable hate).
In regards to the sweepers, I actually did sort of like the change to 5 mana over 4 mana. The problem is that they didn't put anything on the 5-mana sweeper cards to warrant the extra mana, instead putting largely irrelevant extras. More relevant bonuses, even just a simple cantrip, would've gone a long way to making the 5 mana feel justified.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Aggro_zombies
To a certain degree? They've toned down counterplay across the board over the last few years. Some of this feels like they're really overdesigning sets based on trying to meet the demands of a pretty big body of market research and previous "lessons learned", which is pretty restrictive and also creates its own problems.
Take energy. Players complain when flagship mechanics don't show up in Standard (much like how people are complaining about tribal not being good enough now), so WotC pushes energy. They don't print interaction with it because they're worried that if they make interaction too strong, it will make players shy away from trying energy, and also force them to design cards that are way too parasitic outside of Kaladesh block - and that will make players complain too. Also, players don't like strong hosers printed in the same block as things they hose (see the outcry about Grafdigger's Cage when that was spoiled), and players don't like too many counters to the things they're doing because that can lead to frustrating games (see why all Wraths are five mana or conditional now).
The result is a monster that shoves everything else out of Standard and causes players to complain anyway.
The lesson here is to not listen to your players as much, because they don't know what they like and will complain about everything.
But said players are also those who earn WotC their cash. It's easy to dismiss the general playerbase as idiots, but the playerbase as a whole is way smarter than a few guys on the design team, simply because they have more and smarter minds at hand that matter, even if it's just a few individuals. That's why the Felidar Guardian combo was figured out in an instant by the playerbase while R&D completely missed it.
The problem with Kaladesh block was that the sets after it also didn't contain hate for artifacts (aka vehicles) and especially not for energy. Not ruining the set's mechanincs in the same block is fine and has been at staple of Magic design for a long time, but not integrating any safety valves at all is asking for trouble. Amonkhet, for example, would have been a wonderful opportunity to make cards that remove counters from permanents or players to get boni, fitting with the -1/-1 theme of the block.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MaximumC
When you see all these bans, that's a GOOD THING. Why? it means they're taking risks.
You think Ramunap was born out of WotC taking a risk? The same people who said Desert was oppressive?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
Nah, it's just a case of "we still haven't figured out that counterspells and viable land destruction are required elements of balance" striking yet again.
Bingo!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
Are you being sarcastic? Have you looked at the cards that got banned in Standard? They're garbage in Legacy.
Looter Scooter has seen moderate success in Fish. Not exactly a bomb, but I wouldn't call it garbage either. Arguably it only needs the right shell.
Otherwise, yeah, the rest are pants.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
The very restrictive limitation for the artist (and WotC's rather shitty pay - cheap bastards) are some of the main reasons why many former staple artists of Mtg don't or just rarely work for WotC anymore. Digital art is also cheaper.
As for not looking like Magic cards, Google identifying freshly spoiled Amonkhet invocations as Yugioh cards takes the cake.
Actually, WOTC pays artists pretty well from what I have heard, some of the best rates in fantasy illustration, on top of that it can be pretty lucrative if you do art for a recognizable card that people want artist proofs for (I think masterpiece artists were selling their proofs for like 200$+ ea and they get a stack of them from WOTC). The big difference now is that afaik the entire composition is pretty much dictated for most cards, which leaves very little room for the artists interpretation, though maybe some of the more popular artists like Terese Nielsen probably have more freedom. This combined with the shift from 'art' to 'illustration' since the early 2000s homogenizes the art style overall, which makes it seem more cohesive (which I assume WOTC wants) but at the same time a lot of the charm is lost. Pretty much the only artists with distinct style are hold overs from the previous era. With regards to the border designs, I think they hired someone specifically to work on them, which seems strange given how inconsistent the results have been (decent Kaladesh ones to Amonkhet's abomination).
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Oh yeah, look at all those cards that tear up Legacy! Oh wait. Out of all the banned Standard cards, it was only Smuggler's Copter that barely broke through (maybe Emrakul, the Promised End in 12 Post, too, but I haven't followed the deck). Felidar Guardian couldn't even do jackshit in Modern. Then we have cards like Reflector Mage,
Rampaging Ferocidon and
Ramunap Ruins which are just laughable compared to real heavy hitters like JMS ans SFM. And energy is just highly parasitic gargabe.
They weren't really taking risks here - they're just piss-poor at balancing their main constructed format now. The most exciting card that really shook up things in Eternal was Walking Ballista (Edit: I forgot about Fatal Push, but that's just another removal spell). Other than that, we had a new Chandra, Nissa, Vital Force and other cards like Abrade and Hazoret the Fervernt, but those are hardly game-changers. The last few sets have been pretty boring from an Eternal point of view.
This is worst possible outcome. We don't get new toys to play with while WotC is going to dial back the power level.
The reason for this is that Legacy decks are all about efficiency, 0-1 effective CMC. There are very few conceivable cards left in that range that could be printed. Fatal Push closed one of the biggest gaps that was available (B removal at 1 cmc, and even it is still lower powered overall than Bolt or STP). In order for a card to break into Legacy, it has to compete with the most efficient spells in the history of the game and the power level there has been pretty much mined: Bolt, STP, Force, Brainstorm, DRS, Thoughtseize, Mother of Runes. Imagine a card in any of those cards' colors that competes on power level with that card.
For cards that cost more than 1 cmc, the bar is equally high. Compare a cool creature to TNN/Gurmag Angler, a planeswalker to JTMS, a reanimation target to Griselbrand, a combo mechanism to Show & Tell. Legacy is full of straight-up mistakes, but the format works because it is full of them and there are enough to go around. Joining the club, though, is incredibly difficult.
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Re: The current state of Magic
I agree. I know this is a Legacy site, and "Bad Set for Legacy" = "Bad Set in the Abstract" is a pretty ingrained meme at this point, but the lack of Legacy-quality cards on the banned list has very little to do with issues of modern set design or set quality. Legacy is a format of mistakes, and it is very, very rare for a set to make multiple contributions to us - and the ones that do tend to stand out (like New Phyrexia).
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Re: The current state of Magic
To me the current state of Legacy has more to do with DRS than anything in Standard.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
morgan_coke
Nah, it's just a case of "we still haven't figured out that counterspells and viable land destruction are required elements of balance" striking yet again.
I give them credit for pushing block mechanics like Energy to make them more than a gimmick, but the problem is that they don't print strong hate in the next block to create a cycle of introducing a mechanic, refining it and finally, hating it out.
On top of that there is still the core problem in Standard and modern, that answers cost at least as much as threats. The 3cc creatures they banned were just a problem because counterspells and removal often costs 3+ mana. Just look at the 5 mana sweepers, which are pathetic against 3-4cc creatures which do half of their job on EtB.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
To me the current state of Legacy has more to do with DRS than anything in Standard.
If DRS is a problem, so are Delver, Brainstorm and Ponder. Or fetchlands. Banning those would neuter DRS, Brainstorm and 3-4 colour monstrosities in general (i.e. kill the format as we know it) :laugh:.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
If DRS is a problem, so are Delver, Brainstorm and Ponder. Or fetchlands. Banning those would neuter DRS, Brainstorm and 3-4 colour monstrosities in general (i.e. kill the format as we know it) :laugh:.
I'm not saying the card is an banable problem (it is a problem though) I am just saying that next to DRS, Reflecter Mage looks quaint.
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I'm not saying the card is an banable problem (it is a problem though) I am just saying that next to DRS, Reflecter Mage looks quaint.
That I agree with :smile:
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
maharis
The reason for this is that Legacy decks are all about efficiency, 0-1 effective CMC. There are very few conceivable cards left in that range that could be printed.
But when was the last time a card got banned from Standard that wasn't good enough for eternal?
The issue is that Standard design is precluding any ability for self-policing, hence mediocre cards are easily getting out of hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
I'm not saying the card is an banable problem (it is a problem though)
Really? A lot of us think Legacy in in a fantastic spot right now. When has any meta in any format been more diverse?
DRS facilitates a wide range of decks:
Elves
Czech
Delver
Leo BUG
Maverick
Loam
But does not oppress other archetypes like:
Blade
Lands
Miracles
ANT
Eldrazi
Prowess
D&T
Sneak Show
And we just got a new Tempo-Stompy deck that shows great potential.
Even cantrip decks are down to 59% according to MTG Top8
Genuinely curious why you would think there is any problem at all?
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Re: The current state of Magic
B/c you simply need to bitch about something? :laugh:
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Re: The current state of Magic
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
B/c you simply need to bitch about something? :laugh:
Oh I agree 100%.
But I'm unable to find fault in Legacy, so I bitch about the bitchers. :tongue:
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Re: The current state of Magic
Personally not looking to debate shit, but my personal view is that currently a lot of Legacy is built around a very small selection of cards and those cards should be watched. If you feel different, that ok by me. I don't care enough to even pretend I want to revisit BR shit.
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Re: The current state of Magic
