[DTB] UWx Miracle Control

Honestly?

I see no way to make UW better or equal to Jeskai

Moat is still playable by them against Eldrazi and Stompy but they can play K.Return 3 Mentor (and SB Meekstone) for a much more solid gameplan against Grixis, Elves DnT and Goblin. Not to mention random Empty the Warrans G1 answered by Pyroclasm

Overall they have a better Serenity which is By Force, Pyroblast and Wear/Tear for occasional masterpieces like killing Choke/Blood Moon and Chalice EOT with a card.

Oh yes, Worth nothing to say that K. Return is not a colored spell and kills under MoR as well.

I do like the 2 Volcanic main to support some Blasts in the side, but it cuts down the basic count which is part of the appeal of the deck. Then again, 5 Islands or 7 is rarely a large difference.

The MKM decks are all very different and I can't decide which one I like most, but I'm settling on this one for a Friday tournament, with just a couple of changes. One notable lack in all these lists is no Entreat, which I think is very important for racing or deciding when you need a game to be over. I don't think people should be cutting that card.

Main Deck:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Portent
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Flusterstorm
2 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
2 Predict
1 Search for Azcanta / Azcanta, the Sunken Ruin
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Council's Judgment
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
1 Teferi, Hero of DOminaria
4 Terminus
1 Arid Mesa
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:

2 Containment Priest
2 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives

Your main plan is to win with Jace or 1x Teferi? Seriously?

You have no line of defense for your only win condition? And SB Just 2 Mentor? No Entreat in a deep pws build?

Not so sure I would play it. At least play 2 Moat MD to keep everything at bay while you cast your Teferi

This is the top 8 list as is. I said I want to play Entreat, but this guy didn't.

Honestly the Moats sound really janky.

They totally are, but in a list without Entreat and Mentor how do you deal with Swarms? Terminus postpones doesn’t resolve

I am currently winning a league 2-1 and it would have been 3-0 if an Infect player didn’t triple Elf me and double Invigorate for turn 3 kill.

And the second invigorate was drawn that very turn. I am still so upset!!!!!!!!

Anyway Counterbalance against storm is worse than Canonist and against all other decks 90% of the times it is worse than a simple Counterspell

Additional creature hate, instead makes sense. If we are locked out of topdeck manipulation we can rely only on StP

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Originally Posted by Poron

Additional creature hate, instead makes sense. If we are locked out of topdeck manipulation we can rely only on StP

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I tried 1 Path to Exile in addition to the 4 StP and I am happy with that.
Explosives are great also if you play Jeskai. 2 in the 75 is fine.

To me, Counterbalance is a SB card now. There are too many matchups where it does nothing, and where I would have prefered a real Couterspell.

https://manastack.com/deck/rip-control-legacy-2018

This is the list I want to try out, I see that very few people try it out, but I've always loved the miracle/rip combo hybrid.
If anyone has any experience I'd hear their criticism and suggestions :D

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Originally Posted by NegatorITA

https://manastack.com/deck/rip-control-legacy-2018

This is the list I want to try out, I see that very few people try it out, but I've always loved the miracle/rip combo hybrid.
If anyone has any experience I'd hear their criticism and suggestions :D

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I've played similar RIP/Helm Miracles and the shortcomings I noticed were that Snapcaster Mage is really good. Really really good. So good I was playing them alongside Rest in Peace for when it wasn't in play. Which made it really bad, but without him, against a lot of decks and especially the mirror when they did have Snapcaster, you really did feel like the weaker deck.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

I've played similar RIP/Helm Miracles and the shortcomings I noticed were that Snapcaster Mage is really good. Really really good. So good I was playing them alongside Rest in Peace for when it wasn't in play. Which made it really bad, but without him, against a lot of decks and especially the mirror when they did have Snapcaster, you really did feel like the weaker deck.

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maybe that's why we should put some azcanta? find a way to generate card advantage?
also I like to think that not only the mirror exist, but also all the other kind of decks ;)

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Originally Posted by NegatorITA

maybe that's why we should put some azcanta? find a way to generate card advantage?
also I like to think that not only the mirror exist, but also all the other kind of decks ;)

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Keep in mind that if you have a RiP in play Azcanta can't flip.

Whoo we get foil portents.

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

Keep in mind that if you have a RiP in play Azcanta can't flip.

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even with blood moon!
I think the usage of Azcanta should be limited to the scry only if included in the deck, for most of times:
this is why I've decided to start playing the deck without it, yet, considering we are a combo, somehow filtering each draw may be really useful I think :)

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Originally Posted by say no to scurvy

Whoo we get foil portents.

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commander? new art?

Oh wait you're right, these are commander e.g. no foils.

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Originally Posted by NegatorITA

maybe that's why we should put some azcanta? find a way to generate card advantage?
also I like to think that not only the mirror exist, but also all the other kind of decks ;)

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I'm not saying just against the mirror, but that's when it's most noticeable.
They'll have the same spells as you, but get to flash them back on convenience, unless you play Rest in Peace, at which point you're just back to parity.
I'm not saying it isn't a valid version, you just asked for feedback and that was my main takeaway with the time I had with a build like yours.
This was also back when DRS was in full control, so I was enjoying additional collateral success, can't speak to current events.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

I'm not saying just against the mirror, but that's when it's most noticeable.
They'll have the same spells as you, but get to flash them back on convenience, unless you play Rest in Peace, at which point you're just back to parity.
I'm not saying it isn't a valid version, you just asked for feedback and that was my main takeaway with the time I had with a build like yours.
This was also back when DRS was in full control, so I was enjoying additional collateral success, can't speak to current events.

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mmmm I guess only testing will tell? for sure I won't dislike playing something slighty different for a while :D

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Originally Posted by NegatorITA

mmmm I guess only testing will tell? for sure I won't dislike playing something slighty different for a while :D

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Yeah go for it, bring back results

Hi guys. What do u think about Aminatou, the Fateshifter (the new PW)?
Playing esper also would give the chance to play toxic deluge, which is a good card against d & t, and the thoughtseize in SB.

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Originally Posted by wtgger

Hi guys. What do u think about Aminatou, the Fateshifter (the new PW)?
Playing esper also would give the chance to play toxic deluge, which is a good card against d & t, and the thoughtseize in SB.

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Deluge is Not a good card for Miracles against dnt, not even close. It would cost 4 under Thalia via sorcery speed, paying life for creature removal effect is borderline useless when you could have done the same by casting K. Return without the additional cost, and being an instant to get over R. Port.

Some people like the idea of Thoughtseize in the so-called Esper Miracles, I'm not buying it.

Ok guys the deck is good, but I have realized that nowadays the worst card of an optimized list are the Miracle ones

It’s very rare to Miracle in opponent’s turn while it was the rule before and if for Terminus can be fine to tap everything in your turn for Entreat is definitely not viable

We have no problem, normally, in reaching turn 4-5 (the least to see Miracle cards as sexy) but at that point we would have no problem to summon an uncounterable and pitchable to FoW Suoreme Verdict.

I will try to play Verdict in place of Terminus and some kind of combo as finisher along side 2-3 Cliques and pws

We are very good at surviving but not at winning and Entreat is totally not sexy neither in your draw step or in opponent’s upkeep

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Deluge is Not a good card for Miracles against dnt, not even close. It would cost 4 under Thalia via sorcery speed, paying life for creature removal effect is borderline useless when you could have done the same by casting K. Return without the additional cost, and being an instant to get over R. Port.

Some people like the idea of Thoughtseize in the so-called Esper Miracles, I'm not buying it.

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You did not understand me, probably.
Compared to the UW version, having a card like deluge is an extra aspect. In the MU vs d&t it is strong because it has a different CC from terminus with regard to sanctum prelate (as well as kozilek's return, yes).
It is obvious that deluge is less strong than kozilek's return vs d&t, but we need to make a broader comparison.
If we consider the introduction of a new, and potentially very strong card which is the new PW, we can adapt to replace kozilek's return with deluge and pyroblast with thoughtseize, I believe. That's all. :)

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Originally Posted by Poron

I will try to play Verdict in place of Terminus...

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I would suggest dodging DnT. Not just the whole probably needing 6 mana to cast this, but needing :w::w: in a mainphase vs a deck that can Wasteland both Tundras and tap down either of your basic Plains. Are you planning one having 3-4 basic Plains (and a plan to match) or is this a Back to Basics plan?

Yeah well, a board wipe that costs 1, 2, or 3 is better than one that costs 4, 5, or 6. I think not playing terminus is a crime. As a DnT player, I would love it if you all do this...please? Especially if it takes you off B2B and Kozilek's Return. Just saying.

Lately I found an old articel about a Miracle Punishing Dack deck on Wizards. What are your thoughts on this? Anyone believes it could be playable those days?
https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/...ech-2015-04-18

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Originally Posted by Fox

I would suggest dodging DnT. Not just the whole probably needing 6 mana to cast this, but needing :w::w: in a mainphase vs a deck that can Wasteland both Tundras and tap down either of your basic Plains. Are you planning one having 3-4 basic Plains (and a plan to match) or is this a Back to Basics plan?

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my meta has a bunch of dnt, I just threw in tsabo's web, fixed that port problem ^_^

Supreme Verdict is fantastic against TNN decks and Eldrazi. To set up a Terminus against all those Chalices and Thorns can be hard

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Originally Posted by hoernchen

Lately I found an old articel about a Miracle Punishing Dack deck on Wizards. What are your thoughts on this? Anyone believes it could be playable those days?
https://magic.wizards.com/en/events/...ech-2015-04-18

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There was strong incentive to run PFire package as punishing Miracles for the following reasons:
1. Games got grindy thanks to all the pile decks.
2. PFire serves as extra method to get rid of DRS when StP is already heavily utilized against all the creature decks.

In this new meta, it's unclear you would need extra removal in additional to Terminus + StP. The additional benefit of PFire is that you can pressure opponent's Planeswalker easier; otherwise, you have to fish for Council's Judgement. It used to be very annoying because Czech pile likes to have planeswalker hiding behind Strix. PFire being Red and CMC 2 can also bypass Mono Red Stompy's Blood Moon effect as well as Chalice on 1.

You can make the argument that PFire makes your Mana base more fragile because you're incentivized to run Grove. However, I've done enough testing to notice that you can generate enough values (recycling of PFire) just by StP opponent's creature such that you can pick up PFire, no Grove needed.

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Originally Posted by xix

my meta has a bunch of dnt, I just threw in tsabo's web, fixed that port problem ^_^

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DnT attacks you from many angles. If DnT player sandbags a Recruiter, the effect of Terminus is marginalized. Other than slew of artifacts, you still have to deal with Thalia + Karakas and Brightling. To ensure that you don't die to Vial tricks, Swords and Skull, and occasionally Revoker, I would recommend Disenchant plus Shattering Pulse to cut off the artifact angle completely. Shattering Pulse can still function under Blood Moon effect from Mono Red Stompy. Buyback ensures that you'll hit every single Bridge/Chalice/3Sphere. The card can also wreck Steel stompy as long as Ravager is not on board.

A single needle can cut off any other angles like Port, Gideon activation, Mom or Brightling. I would not needle a creature in general, but sometimes you're facing lethal and needle buys you more time.

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On a separate and arguably more important topic, does Miracle need B2B at this point in time? As suggested in this article,
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...and-mkm-prague
"Teferi plays very nicely with the Back to Basics in the deck, along with the diversified suite of countermagic in Counterspell, Spell Pierce and Spell Snare, which are chosen instead of more proactive cards like Counterbalance, which makes sense to synergise with Teferi’s plus ability."
The trend is that if you're all-in on B2B, you should just commit to Teferi and forget about CB, maybe the color Red all together. These Tefer-no-CB lists are putting up results.

DnT falls under the SFM hate package: Stony Silence.

If they have to tap lands to play cards they can’t Port you. If you jam a couple of (staple) B2B it becomes simply nasty

I totally agree on the CBless version. That card does nothing 70% of the times and it starts doing something only with Jace and or Snap/Brainstorm, but at that point simply Snap a Counterspell..

It is still the old beast only against Storm, but Canonist is so much better there

I am not sold on Teferi actually.

No topdeck manipulation, only draws a card takes a lot out of him to Vindicate. His ultimate gets 5 turns to be used and you’re never playing it before turn 6-7

Azcanta is slowly disappearing and I was not sold on it either. Teferi is the next out imho.

-2 Teferi
+1 Council’s Judgment
+1 Jace (third)

Also totally agree on EtA cut. Impossible to be played EOT as it is supposed to be properly used

Crazy Idea: why not include some numbers of Isochron Scepter and Orim's Chant maindeck/sideboard? It can be very janky, but Isochron is pretty good with the other cards Miracles already run, like Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares and Counterspell. Not many decks would bring artifact hate against Miracles, so that could be a secret ninja tech. Maybe substitute the weakened Counterbalances post-ban?

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Crazy Idea: why not include some numbers of Isochron Scepter and Orim's Chant maindeck/sideboard? It can be very janky, but Isochron is pretty good with the other cards Miracles already run, like Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares and Counterspell. Not many decks would bring artifact hate against Miracles, so that could be a secret ninja tech. Maybe substitute the weakened Counterbalances post-ban?

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I feel like Abrupt Decay is still standard sideboard tech for a lot of decks; it'll be brought in against Miracles regardless, so this would just be serving up a 2-for-1 to them.
Beyond that, I could see it doing some work. Maybe not Orim's Chant exactly, but just Counterspell or Ponder would be powerful.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

I feel like Abrupt Decay is still standard sideboard tech for a lot of decks; it'll be brought in against Miracles regardless, so this would just be serving up a 2-for-1 to them.
Beyond that, I could see it doing some work. Maybe not Orim's Chant exactly, but just Counterspell or Ponder would be powerful.

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Yeah, Abrupt Decay is a problem. And Ponder can't be imprinted on Isochron Scepter, since it's a Sorcery. Still, plenty of good targets for it maindeck.

I'd test 1~2 copies of Scepter just for the lulz. Add Engineered Explosives and a singleton Academy Ruins and we have a solid package.

Herp Instants only; it's been a while.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Yeah, Abrupt Decay is a problem. And Ponder can't be imprinted on Isochron Scepter, since it's a Sorcery. Still, plenty of good targets for it maindeck.

I'd test 1~2 copies of Scepter just for the lulz. Add Engineered Explosives and a singleton Academy Ruins and we have a solid package.

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100% of Top8 decks are playing either Wasteland, Blood Moon or Back to Basics.

To play a non basic land to do something unique has become pretty dangerous.

Anyone considering to cut a stp for blessed alliance?
With DRS gone creatures mostly worry us by attacking.

Since it doesn't target, hits TNN, slips through Mothers protection, gets grid of Goosees and Reality Smasher.

Also, as we naturally stabalize around ~1 life point XD, helps to bring back our fetch lands. Not to mention the possibility to flashback it with our favourite mage.

I wouldn't cut a Plow for it but I think it's quite a fine card. One of those MKM lists recently had 4 Plows and 2 Blessed Alliance, no?

Has someone test Gideon of the Trials? Many decks just can’t do anything to it and, many others just can’t do anything with Curator’s Ward on it

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Originally Posted by Poron

Has someone test Gideon of the Trials? Many decks just can’t do anything to it and, many others just can’t do anything with Curator’s Ward on it

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If u have a terminus and brainstorm in your hand, he's Op vs TES and ANT. Emblem GG.
And still a decent card vs eldrazi.

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Originally Posted by wtgger

If u have a terminus and brainstorm in your hand, he's Op vs TES and ANT. Emblem GG.
And still a decent card vs eldrazi.

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Eldrazi aggro i mean, not eldrazi post.

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Originally Posted by Poron

Has someone test Gideon of the Trials? Many decks just can’t do anything to it and, many others just can’t do anything with Curator’s Ward on it

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Card requires :w::w: vs decks where you want :u::u:; the decks he's good against fold to Counterbalance....play more of those. Enchant creature card types are unplayable in legacy, with the slight exception of ones that enchant permanents you don't control; overwhelm Decay, don't play harder into it.

does anyone know if the MTGO player AnziD is on here? I saw he played a list w/ 2 brightling and 2 Snapcaster MB and wanted his take on that choice. Seems strong w/ the bounce and lifegain, but I don't think it's necessarily better than Mentor. anyone else have thoughts on that split?