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While I don't think Mystical Tutor is that bad, if you do play Mystical Tutor, I think you have to build your deck with 2xTendrils in mind. There's actually inherent card advantage in Mystical Tutor when you are searching for a Dark Ritual or a second Right of Flame, since you're getting 2 mana for 1 mana compared to Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox, but TES is a tempo based deck, and it can't afford the tempo loss.
That's what Dark Confidant, Orim's Chant, and Abeyance is for. Mystical Tutor is good when you're looking for a specific threat, such as Diminishing Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains. Getting Rituals is good, but you have to wait one turn for them. Dark Confidant can get you rituals and other forms of mana as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Also, why would you Tutor up Abeyance/Chant, when you can just draw it? Even with Confidant is in play, you're still better off drawing that 2nd card as it may be mana, threat, or protection.
Also, isnt Mystical Tutor a Tempo loss in this deck already? You've wasted your first/second turn + Draw step, instead of just finding ways to apply pressure towards the opponent.
It's always been a rule when playing beatdown, apply pressure and force the opponent into a mistake, then make them pay for it by winning or make the situation worse than before.
I couldn't agree more.
I wasn't advocating Mystical Tutor in TES, just saying that it's not a horrible card in storm combo. You might look into a U/b/w style TES deck with Death Wish etc. it just requires reshaping the archetype into a more sand bag on your life total and then go off protected esq deck. Essentially, you'd be control-combo that could occassionally go nuts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
But the thing is that TES can do things similair to playing Control. It can simply just switch gears and approach the game in a much slower fashion and bait out counters into oblivion.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
We can already play control with 4 Chant, 2 Abeyance and 4-5 Blasts (Sideboard). No need to ruin the deck to pursue the idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Curious why you haven’t tried 4 DC 4 Xantid? They can’t swords everything.
Because you now have 8 cards (plus every land) that is now a dead card when you combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshade81
The whole point is that Draw 7's are good, and if you get 1 dead card a draw 7 average, they are draw 6's, and thats stupid.
You probably can't draw 8 creatures by the time they find 2 pieces of countermagic and a creature removal spell. At this point, you would lose the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshade81
Civility. Use it.
Full Warning. - Bardo
Actually your wrong.
Swarm used to be the best answer, but the meta has shifted. Thresh (with spot removal) and Combo (Swarm dosn't hurt) have grown, while Goblins (Need chump blockers) has died.
Thus Orim's Chant was a meta change, not a better card in a vacume change.
With four creatures in your deck your opponent has a 40% chance of having a spot removal card in his hand (assuming 4 spot removal) with a 24% chance that it's dead. If you have eight creatures in your deck, your opponent's chances of have a dead spot removal card go up to under 7%. With 0 creatures in your deck, your opponent has a 40% chance of having a dead removal spell in his deck. That means UGR Thresh (we'll go by the Gencon top4 build) goes from having 8 relevant spells to stop your protection to turn on the remainder of their counters plus Spell Snare and Stifle on turn 2 (only Daze and Force counter Chant/Abeyance) to having 4 Force, 4 Daze, 4 Stifle, 4 Lightning Bolt, and 4 Fire/Ice to stop your protection that lets them turn on Spell Snare in addition to Force/Daze/Stifle.Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshade81
This is fucking hilarious as my design was the first to widely abuse Chant/Abeyance/Dark Confidant. Take a look at Grim Iggy, a deck that I designed early this year and my teammate has finished highly with. Now look at how it beats control. Notice anything?Quote:
I think it's really really funny that now since every one has converted to Chant, Xantid is now the far inferior choice. I truly find it hilarious, actually when I saw the first list with 4x Chant I had a good laugh for like 5 mins.
I've yet to see anything worthwhile in all of your posting on the source. The only recurring theme is that you want to play Pact of Negation in decks where it is obviously awful. (And now for the personal attack to lead into something relevant,) who are you to be calling out people for independent thought, especially people who have shown a far better record on independent thought.Quote:
Have some independent thought.
@ APriestofGix
Chant is much better in a vaccum precisely because it negates all creature removal. Additionally, Chant is available from turn 1, never forces you to time walk to come online, and Time Walks (sometimes providing protection to ETW). Chant's major disadvantage is the fact that it can be misdirected, which as you normally won't cast it after you've played spells anyway, isn't much of a concern.
Edit:
P.S. In thinking on the evolution of TES, Grim Iggy, and my own SI, one thing becomes extremely clear. While I converse with wastedlife a lot (we're talking daily), our changes to our decks to include the current package has largely resulted from independent testing. We both arrived at the fact that our current anti-control packages were best. While we are both aware of the other's developments, differences in playstyle of each deck dictates that we approach things differently. However, the power of Chant/Abeyance/Confidant did manage to break through to both of us. Is that independent thought?
Pre Script - I was spell checking when emidln posted. This is aimed at APriestofGix post only
I am not wrong.
Alright you attempted to have two points to disprove me statement, "The only true disadvantage of running Xantid is that is gives the opponent 4 more counterspells in the form of STP"
Your first point Thresh (with spot removal) - I already conceded that was the problem with Xantid - so no Kudos.
Your second point Combo (Swarm dosn't hurt) - Congrats this is the closest point to disproving my argument. So you get a gold star.
But let me give you a hypothetical - what if there was a enchantment that cost one green, came into play tapped, and said, "Tap: your opponent can't play spells for the rest of the turn. You may only play this ability when you could play a sorcery." Are you seriously telling me that wouldn't be a 4-of in every single TES deck?
Notice the word "true" in my, I did not state "the only disadvantage" there is a significant difference in my syntax. The word "true" in my statement modifies the sentence to mean it's the only significant draw back.
Since the above hypothetical card's advantage is that it can't be STP's, and everyone and there mother would run it, my statement remains true.
I am truly and incredibly sorry for ever posting in this thread. I'm going to reinstate the ban I put on myself to ever post in this thread. All I really wanted to know is if wastelife had tested the 4x Xantid 4x DC build, since he's the only intelligent person who posts about TES. I really should have just PM'd him.
Hypothetically, we have two cars. Both get us where we want to go on autopilot. One of them has a genie that summons itself randomly roughly 10% of the time to provide hot members of the appropriate sex to give you head while you are moved to where you want to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshade81
The car that has the genie represents the combo mirror. Chant and Xantid Swarm are both functionally the same (despite the fact that swarm is more vulnerable to disruption) when they stick, but Swarm, while it doesn't actively hurt you in the combo mirror, doesn't actually help (give you head) either. Having chant over swarm in the combo mirror is that extra little bonus.
This card is fucking awful compared to chant. For reference:Quote:
But let me give you a hypothetical - what if there was a enchantment that cost one green, came into play tapped, and said, "Tap: your opponent can't play spells for the rest of the turn. You may only play this ability when you could play a sorcery." Are you seriously telling me that wouldn't be a 4-of in every single TES deck?
Do you know why it's fucking awful compared to chant? Chant isn't ever affected by enchantment removal. Never ever never going to get hit by a random disenchant or naturalize. Xantid Enchantment will never provide you protection turn 1. Xantid Enchantment can actually get pithing needled (which is pretty terrible). Xantid Enchantment still doesn't get used as an offensive tool against combo or as a time walk.Quote:
Originally Posted by me
First I want to apologize for insulting you two. I shouldn't post when I'm angry and I shouldn't take things as personally as I do. I haven't posted in a long time and only do when I feel I have something relevant to say, and get irritated when I get BS arguments thrown at me by the first two replies. Which come on – were really weak points.
The first two post ‘it makes D-Returns bad’ and ‘if they just counter 2 spells’ I mean come on that’s horrible. D-Returns stays the same because you replace counter magic with counter magic, and the same is true if they counter 2 spells. I mean those two arguments are really weak because nothing really changes if you drew Chant over Xantid.
The advantage of having 4 Xantids is being able to pull STP off Bob, that’s really it. And again all I wanted to know is if some had tested that at all.
Name one spot in my argument where I say I think Xantid is better then Orim’s chant. You will not be able to find it. I don’t think its better. I think Orim’s a much stronger spell. Again all I wanted to know is if the 8 Swords target version had been tested, period. Not saying it’s better. I repeat I don't think it's better.
To be honest I have been running 4x Chants 2x Xantids in my play testing. I like two because it forces my opponent to keep in at least 3 Swords and allows me to Infernal Tutor for a second one. I think at least one random Xantid might be worth considering in non Dark Confidant builds (after the 4 Chants of course).
BTW my laughing at 4x Chants was a form of satire. It was mainly a poke fun of people who ran Xantids while I was told I made the deck “infinitely worse” by running Chant at the infancy of the decks creation.
Again I apologize I should stop being an asshole.
Last post in this thread I promise, cross my heart, hope to die.
No i would NOT run them.Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshade81
Chant does MANY things (i allueded to above).
I can be used turn 1.
And (most important) it's good against more decks then JUST control, as it hits storm combo.
Please go away, and think a little more. When you actually want to try and make any improvments on the deck, come back and stop being so "smart" and yet SO wrong!!!
So you would do -4 Chant +4 Swarm (dosn't touch D-Returns i agree)Quote:
Originally Posted by nightshade81
and cut what 4 cards for you Bob's? ANYTHING you cut, hurts D-Returns, LIKE I SAID!
Wow stop the flame wars. He just said that he ran 4 Chants and 2 Swarms.
Orim's Chant rules. I don't think anyone disagrees.
I think I like Xantid Swarm more than Abeyance, though.
Its not a question of chant vs swarm. Its a question of abeyance vs swarm. What is so complicated? Chant is amazing yes, but abeyance costs an extra mana and that can seriously slow you down at times.
Also some of the arguements people have posted are just stupid. Wow swarm is bad if you draw it with diminishing returns. So what. Abeyance is even worse. Swarm actually works better with dreturns than abeyance because if its in play it doesn't get shuffled back.
Also will people please stop suggesting that we play horrible cards. If you think mystical tutor or grim tutor are playable good for you. Have fun going 0-3 at any serious legacy tournament, but please don't waste our time with your silly suggestions. If you are suggesting a certain card have a well thought out arguement as to why it's good in TES and also why it's better than whatever you are cutting to replace it. And don't start a flame war when everyone points out how silly your idea is if it truly is a bad idea.
Grim Tutor > all.
Back to running 2 main, still owing every i play on MWS...
now if i could onyl get 2, and get a tourny in this state to show you all. Thats all anyone cares about are top 8 lists.
Flames deleted. Warning for Flaming. ~ Nightmare
it's not flaming, it's saying how dumb EVERYONE is, not just a single person.
Please look at the last list Bryant T8't with. It only plays 10 dead cards for Diminishing returns. And lands are not always dead off Returns because sometimes you still get to play a land.Quote:
Originally Posted by APriestOfGix
I agree with Nightshade partly because people shouldn't write so aggressive and 6-8 creatures is indeed an interesting proposal although I still don't like the Bob. It might not be good but at-least it's not as bad as Living wish. I haven's tested it but to me, 4 Chant 0-2 Xantid swarm, 0 Bob and 0 Abayence seems best.
@ Nightshade: please do not stop posting just because some people don't post civil and do not understand logic. I still remember you proposed Mystical tutor and Chant and ultimately it was a good suggestion, at-least the Chant part. But people just reacted aggressive because Bryant didn't agree and they didn't think for themselves.
I have tested 4 Dark Confidant 4 Swarm in the maindeck back when I ran Confidant in the sideboard before he was cut. I personally believe 8 cards that are dead after a Diminishing Returns aren't worth the hassle. You can cast Chants and Abeyances after a returns to help or to empty your hand for Infernal. Xantid is currently bad because the metagame shift against him, he never lives. I want my protection to win me the game, and win me the game now. Not next turn. Now people please quit ruining the thread.
So right now you are not runnung 8 dead cards off Diminishing returns and somehow Chant and Abayence (ok, it draws a card but is harder to cast than Bob) are easier to cast for hellbent than Swarm and Bob?Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
Xantid was fine when my budget was suppressed, but now that I have my Chants, I use those. I've used Chant aggressively against combo decks. Throwing a Chant mid-combo for Belcher caused a concede. Also using it to stop an aggro deck from playing the early beats was useful.
Chant vs Swarm is hardly an arguement. Wait a turn for your protection, or have one less mana for the "combo now".
Abeyance is very similar to Chant. It offers about the same protection but is 1 colorless mana more, making it occasionally hard to cast in the first couple of turns(especially with 15 lands in the deck). Confidant helps the draws going, giving you more mana sources(hopefully and probably).
After more testing with the deck, I trimmed out Warrens to a single copy. As of right now, I have 1 Abeyance(bidding on more...). So the last 2 slots I'm playing around with.
@Gix - I tried the Tutor...doesn't work so good without Cabal Ritual. Also, I was goofing around with Vintage decks and realized that it basically came from PitchLong and grabbed Yawgmoth's Will or some other "win now" card. that meant I could easily make extra storm out of nothing and win. We can't quite do that :(
What are you guys cutting for ponders and how many are you running. So far i've tested 2 and 3 main and it worked out well either way. Do you think they might be worth running as a 4-of.
These are the debatable slots i am running: 3 SSG, 2 Ponder 3 Cabal ritual, 3 Mox, 3 Etw, 4 Chant, 1 Infernal contract. (0 Abayence,Plunge,Swarm,Bob)Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew77
I don't think that Mox is a debatable slot. It's a 4-of in almost every list. I have Ponder in for the Abeyances I don't have yet. I suppose SSG could be viewed as unneeded, but I like mine too much. At this point Chant is also too important to give up. No protection means no safe combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by matelml
Fairly solid results so far with this list,
4 Orim's Chant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
4 Dark Ritual
4 Right of Flame
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Glimmervoid
SB
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Infernal Contract/Cruel Bargain
1 Rough/Tumble
1 Hull Breach
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Leyline of the Void (totally a metagame call ATM)
When you're using Orim's Chant, I think it's important to replace the 1 drop left by Xantid Swarm with another card. Ponder really excels at either setting up Chant + Tendrils or finding an Empty the Warrens for your second turn. Routinely hitting your second or third land is also a godsend, because it sets up Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns with enough colored mana to throw an Orim's Chant at them on the same turn or Burning Wish for Infernal Contract and cast it with out wasting acceleration.
I really haven't been happy with cutting/sbing 2 Empty the Warrens for Abeyance, because my Diminishing Returns have been abysmal with only 2 win conditions in the deck, and people stop countering your Dark Rituals when there isn't a reasonable expectation of seeing an Empty the Warrens behind it. Abeyance is just a fucking clunky ass card, I find myself casting it and praying my opponent will counter it or just cycling it on their upkeep to keep them off of Meddling Mage and Counterbalance more than I find myself using it to protect the combo.
I think Ponder is everything we wanted Plunge to be. I'm still really stuck on the MD Xantid Swarm, 3 MD Diminishing Returns, Tinder Wall and SB Pyroblast configuration, but if you're set on playing Orim's Chant, I think Ponder is the way to go.
I really haven't enjoyed playing Bryant's list, using Orim's Chant and then using MD Dark Confidant is a little counter intuitive to me, because it doesn't deal with the Swords to Plowshares problem, and with out 3 Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns is a really lackluster card. It's by no means bad once you get the hang of it, because it's really all about inevitability off of Dark Confidant, but it feels like an entirely different deck to me sometimes.
I don't think I'm going to play Ponder since I added Dark Confidant. Confidant is taking up the slots where ponder would be. It's either or not both.
Just a random observation on that list: there seems to be a lack of synergy between Brainstorm/Ponder and Glimmervoid. I'd imagine that if you're playing set-up spells off your lands, you're going to want them to stick around. Isn't there a better option?
Also, it's Rite of Flame, not Right of Flame.
It's not necessarily either/or, you can MD Ponder and SB Dark Confidant with a "Man Plan" of - Ponder and -Simian Spirit Guide for + Dark Confidant and + Xantid Swarm. That's my preferred SB configuration when every one isn't dry humping Dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
@ B4ron
Well, Undiscovered Paradise is terrible with 8 cantrips, so it's either Glimmervoid or Tarnished Citadel. Glimmervoid is occasionally useful, because you can play Glimmervoid and then cast Brainstorm/Ponder and get them to counter it, at which point you play an artifact and they "wasted" a counter, or you play Glimmervoid, play an artifact and then get them to counter counter it, at which point you play another artifact and they "wasted" a counter or you can play an artifact first, get them to counter it and play a City of Brass at which point they "wasted" a counter or you just play an artifact first and then play a Glimmervoid and you're golden.
You either cost yourself a storm, or you cost yourself 3+ life, you can play Devil's Advocate all you want.
As an aside, I think it's important to note that playing a Lion's Eye Diamond before you play anything else is a powerful tactic IRL. Game 1 on the play, People will put you on Dredge and Force of Will the "outlet/accelerant" and let their guard down against Burning Wish->Bomb. The environment has turned Lion's Eye Diamond into a pseudo Dark Ritual (followed by SSG and ETW), where the opponent's will counter it out of fear of what it could lead to. You can also do it on the draw if you have an SSG to protect you from Daze, at which point you've bought yourself another turn against Meddling Mage and Counterbalance. I've even gone so far as to back my deck with Ichorid slips as an inside joke, and ironically it started working for me even more.
The WTF looks alone are well worth it.
I like ponder over confidant, but I don't necessarily like it as a 4-of. The big problem I have with confidant is that it is quite slow. It takes 3 turns for it to do more than night's whisper. I haven't had time to test thoroughly, but ponder seems very good main. It is in plunges slot after all and it seems a lot better than plunge.
Confidant is awesome.
-It makes Black mana when pitched to Mox.
-It gives you a way of approaching the game in a much slower fashion, in which you bait counters out and still apply pressure.
-If it attacks and connects, it's a 1 storm less for your future Tendrils.
-It can serve as a blocker if you're only using it to set-up.
I dont see why you would not even run any Confidants at all. I was an advocate of Confidant, since, forever.
Also, Ponder is good, but in place of Confidant, it can only do these things better than Confidant;
-It can dig, but Ponder is a card that sets-up your next turn as well, just not your current turn. This is why I believe you should not run Ponder in Storm decks, because it doesnt give you a strong long-term effect which can apply lot's of pressure towards the opponent. I like Confidant because it applies pressure.
Night's Whisper is good too, but I dislike it because it needs to chain for it to do something against Control. Confidant doesnt chain. In fact, it doesnt need to chain, because each card it sees isnt a blank or a bad cantrip that interferes with the combo (not referring to Brainstorm). Imagine chaining Night's Whisper now... now imagine 2 Confidants on the board. I dont even need to combo quickly, it's a match already sealed.
Yes, we all know when Dark Confidant is on the board the deck is inevitable, but that doesn't change the fact that Dark Confidant is a target for the opponent's spot removal. If you MD Ponder and you SB Dark Confidant, you're min/maxing your dead card advantage, so as I said before, it's not an either or argument. I think comparing Dark Confidant to Ponder is like comparing Burning Wish to Brainstorm, the first two are the deck's threats and the second two are the deck's set up cards.
I love Night Whispers in storm combo, but TES has a mana hole that it needs to address, and Ponder is the card that addresses that mana hole. Also, I think you're wrong when you say that Ponder (or are you talking specifically about Night Whispers in the second paragraph?) interferes with the combo, because Ponder is AMAZING during the combo turn. I can't even begin to count the number of times I've cast a Diminishing Returns with U floating, drew a hand with Brainstorm/Ponder and then cantripped into a win condition. I think that play is a HUGE selling point of Ponder over anything else. Imprinting for blue mana to set up Burning Wish->Diminishing Returns is also a lot better than imprinting for black mana, IMO.
Is there a possibility of both? I mean, people keep going on about how Abeynace costs 2, so why not cut it and run 2 Ponder?
Confidants main disadvantage is the inconsistency that comes with him. You will get lots of hands that look like this... Land, lotus petal, chant, dark confidant, LED, infernal tutor, infernal tutor. In this situation you can go for a turn one confidant and if it sticks you win, but if not your probably screwed. Ponder has a huge advantage because it only costs one. Being able to imprint it onto a chrome mox is quite nice also.
Basically confidant doesn't seem to add any consistency and that is what we are looking for. Something like ponder gives you a great tool for finding cards you need. Not running confidant or swarms will also mean your opponent now has a bunch of dead cards.
Anyway I think both confidant and ponder are viable options. It just depends on your style of play and your meta. I have way too much creature removal in my area to really use confidant so I can't wait for ponder to become legal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew77
This can be true. My play style and approach towards the deck is to gain an edge over the opponent.
I do like it how Ponder makes every match-up slightly better, but Confidant in a few. But Confidant is still decent in those dead match ups, but against those dead match-ups, I should be winning right there anyways.
I don't see a reason why you would want to play less than 4 Ponder, Ponder, and subsequently Brainstorm, get better with each additional Ponder in the deck.
Because having multiple ponders/brainsorms slows you down?
Not really, if you have the nuts, you have the nuts. What the deck needs is more consistency. If you're aim is to go off on the first turn every time, then you're better off playing Belcher.Quote:
Originally Posted by matelml