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I do randomly have them in opening hand but most of the time it is almost irrelevant. Or I mull.
Do you guys feel safe with only one sage? I have found having many more is much more helpful. How many do you guys run? I like having 2-3. I am still undecided on a Wraith or another Sage.
Still one of the only cards to appear in every core set.Quote:
Originally Posted by T_B
I agree not alot of opponents on MWS are worth playing but I do record my stats as far as first turn kill or 4th turn to find out if I'm getting faster kills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
As far as narcomoeba's being in the opening hand... I have horrible luck with that also. Usually only 1 though.
I dont play Ichorid on MWS because its a bitch to make so many clicks and also deal with imcompetent people now knowing interactions. Also, people can have infinite card SBs on MWS and can include all the GY hate they want so games 2 and 3 wouldnt really be meaningful...
I wouldn't run more than 1 because how good is it to have him in the opening hand and no way to discard.... it happens. I would prefer street wraith.Quote:
Originally Posted by T_B
Another good reason not to run multiples is because you can dread return cephalid sage then cabal therapy him back to grave and repeat a dread return if you need to. I've done it many times to push farther down so I could get more narcomoebas in play.
Not if you look at the Security Code - if the number isn't 0 or 15, it doesn't show [Type 1.5] at the start of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bovinious
Just wanted you guys to know that I T8ed at the Dutch Legacy Champs (around 110 players or something) with Ichorid. I went completely undefeated in the Swiss and only lost to Chris Wilczek, playing our team aYb's new 4c Hybrid Fish deck in the T4. I will write a (maybe short) report on how things went...
Congratulation! Can we have a decklist, especially: did you play Gamble? I played the deck in Karlsruhe (should have 4/0/0ed, ask Adan, he'll be glad to tell) and I was very happy with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukas Preuss
http://www.kvdeckmasters.nl/Forum/in...2285#msg172285
Here are the Decklists.
Btw Lukas made a 2nd Turn Kill, starting with Land, 2 LED, Putrid Imp and flashbacking 3 Deep Analysis, milling 2 Moeba, and 4 Bridges ;)
Oh, I made some awesome plays throughout the entire day.
No, I didn't play Gamble. I found them not to be necessary and wanted to have the most explosive game 1 possible, so I ran 12 Dredge creatures and 3 Dread Return, 1 Sage, 1 FKZ. This won me many games... I didn't lose a single game 1. I think I will try to give you guys more detailed information in my report.
Btw, Windux, the link doesn't work.
This is the link: http://www.kvdeckmasters.nl/Forum/in...2285#msg172285
Was it really much better with 12 dredgers as opposed to 11? If I was to cut Gamble (which I'm considering), I think I'd add a 2nd Cephalid Sage first for more game 1 consistency.
Oh, the 12th dredger really wasn't that important. I didn't have any problems with 11, but I had that one slot left after cutting Gambles and putting the Sage back in, so I decided to run 12 dredgers.
I don't think the second Sage is necessary, though, because you can just as well flashback Therapy, sac Sage and Dread Return it again. My game 1 was actually pretty explosive, but I guess you cut run the second Sage in that slot and it will probably be just as good.
What about the Street Wraith?
Do you think that he is not necessary for a explosive early turns kill? I tested him in the deck and I'm pretty satisfied, also, it's good because you can feed the Ichorid more often.
Every time I read "Street Wraith," I start trying to sing a variant of the song from Aladdin, redone a la Ichorid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
Yet despite these musical linkings, Street Wraith probably isn't worth it in the deck. Not particularly due to any major flaw in the card, but moreso because the deck's quickly running out of slots.
Thats what I think about Wraith also, if the deck had to run 64 cards Street Wraith would be the inclusion but I really cant justify cutting anything for it (and if anyone pulls a BreathWeapon and claims 64 cards is alright while running Wraith they lose a testicle).
I managed to win a 14-man-tournament with this list:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Gamble
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
===
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Ray of Revelation
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Chain of Vapor
Don't tell me my SB sucks. I know it already.
Conclusions:
- Before the event I considered Gamble to be necessary. However I only used it 2 times in the whole tournament and it didn't win me games I would have lost otherwise.
- Cephalid Sage rocks. Seriously. Sometimes it's good to board out 1 Dread Return, 1 FKZ leaving the Sage in just for its pure explosiveness.
- Ichorid Players get way too lucky, especially when facing IGGy Pop :)
- Why should you think about playing Street Wraith in a 60-card-list with so many better cards around? I don't suggest going to >60 because I want to keep my testicles.
Speaking of awesome plays, I managed to get a turn 1 kill vs Goblins by going double LED -> double Deep Analysis. However there was one which I considered way more awesome:
Quarterfinals, I'm looking at my opponent's decklist, he plays the exact UGb Threshold list of Coppola's article. That means he brings in 4 Jailers (*stares at the lonely Chain of Vapor in my SB*). Damn.
I win game 1 easily, boarding in the 4th Therapy and the Chain. My opponent draws his seven cards and sends them back. I carefully watch him drawing 6 new cards, he says "Keep.". I can tell he's holding a good hand. Damn.
I look at my seven: Mine, Pimp, Therapy, LED, Deep Anal, Troll, Stinkweed Imp. Holy cow, I'm not going to lose this.
He leads with Thoughtseize and stares at my hand for some time, finally going for the Therapy. I play Pimp, flashback Therapy, he forces. Whoa. I play LED, flashback Deep Analysis, dredging a Narcomoeba and another Therapy, which I play taking his Jailer and proceed to win on turn 3 without Dread Return. Now that's awesome.
So what's all this talk about Gamble not being any good? I suppose it isn't very "explosive" at times, but does adding extra Deep Analysis and Dread Returns really help all that much? I'd probably want to run Careful Study if anything.
(This is aimed at Lukas and Brehn mostly, I know the opinions of the regular posters.)
Adding Cephalid Sage helps. I think it should be maindecked if there is a slight chance that your metagame doesn't consist of 100% Threshold, Landstill and MUC. I still can't tell if Gamble is the right choice, as I said i didn't really get a chance to use it in this tournament, so I will need further testing.
In my testing, Dredge regularly smashes every non-combo deck that doesn't pack Leyline.
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomeoba
2 Dread Return
1 Flamekin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
4 Thug
4 Stinky
4 Troll
3 Putrid Imp
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
2 Deep Analysis
4 Leyline of the Void
Because I expect the numbers of Dredge to rise significantly in the coming months, I chose to maindeck Leyline.
Not only is it useful against Threshold, Loam decks, Breakfast and various other stuff, it also gives you a free G1 win in the mirror.
Without LED, DA is often useless, and I seldom activate more than twice. 2 copies seem to be fine so far. 2 Dread Return are also enough, because you activate it once for FKZ for the kill, or activate it for the Sage which lets you dredge enough cards to find the second copy.
What I'm not so happy about are the 3 Putrid Imps. I thought about cutting another Gemstone Mine, but that seems a little too risky.
1) What do you think about maindeck Leyline?
2) How do you win the mirror?
My current SB is:
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
Chain of Vapor has the problem of bouncing your Leyline too, so I don't know what to do here.
Can someone help me with the sideboard?
in a sample sideboard like:
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
how do u sideboard vs each deck?
thnx.
I am also finding it difficult to decide what to board in and out for various matches.
For example, I regularly win game1 against Breakfast, but the next games see more trouble when they board in Deed. It's easy enough to play around normally, but not when backed up by Goyfs and the pressure of the combo. So, I can board in Chains, CotV, and LLotV...that's like the whole sideboard. Obviously CotV is not necessary, but if I side out my own combo, as many people have suggested, my deck is now much slower, and basically sucks against them, so CotV looks much better. LLotV is also some good against them, but necessary? Chain seems like auto-board with Deed, Leyline, and their combo pieces. There just isn't enough room, and on top of that, I don't feel like sending back a very good hand that would normally be fast enough (not anymore because I sided out my combo), just because I don't start with Chain, which I'm never going to find once I start dredging anyway...
Just asking... Why isn't anyone running Tolarian Winds anymore? Has it been replaced by Breakthrough? I think it would work fine if the deck runs both Breakthrough and Tolarian Winds...
Basically because it costs 2, you will rarely have 2 lands in your opener and to ensure you could get 2 consistently you would need to add more land which I think would weaken the deck more than Winds would strengthen it.
Hello,
i also want to play this deck, but dont know how to side, when you want to put 4 CotV/Leyline/Chain of Vapor in... 4 Therapy out? Then its much harder to sac your own creatures for 2/2 zombies...
Mvg
For SB Strategy, I'll go with Bane's hints :
So, you should go with -1 FKZ, -1 Cephalid Sage, -2 Dread Return for your 4 of's, then -1 Imp, -2 DA if you need more rooms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
I still do have SB Issues with the deck.
I wonder if Pithing Needle won't be better than Chalices beside the Ancient Grudge Vs Tormod's Crypt.
Chalice is pro-active and can be Sided-in vs Storm combo to slow them down a bit. (though, don't board out your own FKZ combo for that, it'd be stupid).
But you do have to cast them (and/or Therapy) to shut further Crypts as soon as turn1. If a Crypt is played turn1 by your opponent, you must bet him into an early use (Slowplay him with 1 Dredge and 1 Ichorid at a time), or wait for Gamble=>Ancient Grudge.
Needles seems waaaaayy better on the draw (ie Game2), no ?!?
Any thoughts ?!?
Ok thanks :).
And why some people play Gamble? I didnt play it and also didnt miss it...
Mvg
Hey guys,
I just attended a 52-man Legacy in San Diego and went a disappointing 3-3. I'd like to throw a disclaimer out there: I was both very under-prepared and very inexperienced with combating hate. Most people on the forums have played enough games to play around Tormod's Crypt I guess, but honestly I was having trouble against that card all day. Below is my decklist and tournament report; I tried to take as detailed notes as possible so those wanting to learn or pick up this deck can learn from my horrible playmistakes and experience:
Ichorid
#Chris Liao
#Game Empire Legacy
#1 December 2007
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
4x Putrid Imp
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Breakthrough
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Deep Analysis
2x Gamble
2x Dread Return
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Cephalid Sage
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum
//Board
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chain of Vapor
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Ancient Grudge
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pre-game notes:
First off, I was tipped off by a few friends that the expected metagame was going to be heavy 4C Landstill and Threshold, followed by random aggro decks. Assuming this was going to be the metagame, Ichorid would've been a surefire choice to gun for top 8. Unfortunately, the metagame was almost 100% random, meaning you had no idea what to expect around every corner, making boarding decisions a nightmare.
The previous nights, I had been discussing with both Bovinous and Brehn about various MB and SB options. For the most part, we concluded that Gamble was stronger for fighting random hate, therefore I chose to go with that particular list.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I guess I don't have much more to write about, so here's the tournament report. Also, I don't want to sound like a sore-loser, but my opponents did have fantastic crypt rips that totally destroyed me all day. Without those rips, I would definitely have been riding towards top 8.
Round 1: Spencer playing UG Threshold
Game 1 - I keep a decent hand with imp, troll, and breakthrough. He starts off with petals, cantrips and werebear. I proceed to dredge via troll, then hit multiple narcomoebas, allowing me to effectively decimate his hand with therapies. I then safely cast breakthrough for the turn 4 FKZ kill.
Board // -1 FKZ, -1 Breakthrough, -1 DA, -1 DR // +4 Needle
Game 2 - I mulligan to 5, having no dredgers on my mull to 6. My 5 hand, however, was quite strong, consisting of LED, imp, troll, and DA. He starts off strong with a cantrip followed by goyf. I decide I'd better go balls out or just lose the game to eventual goyf beats (since I had already dredged off of troll, effectively making goyf bigger than he should've had any business being on turn 3). So then I LED, crack, flash DA, DA gets forced, I then sac coliseum and end up dredging a good third of my deck, leading into 1 bridge and Ichorids. The race is on: goyf + werebear vs recurring Ichorid + tokens. Eventually I get him down to 8 with two ichorid in the yard (only 3 black creatures though) and I'm at 4. EOT, he snabacks my imp. He has three cards left after I swing with my Ichorid, putting him down to 5. There's no way he can keep up with my token generation once I get two ichorids online, so I cast imp as a chump blocker to not die from goyf (also expecting to get a 2/2 token from the dead ichorid). Well, he had it. Forced my imp and stifled my ichorid, leaving him home free for the kill.
Game 3 - I get an early heavy-dredge hand into two narcomoebas, a therapy, ichorids, and two bridges. Upon flashing back therapy, I decided to name tarmogoyf, but he had only one land in play (he had been mana screwed for 2 turns). Here's where I misplayed: I should have named a cantrip spell because he was seriously hurting on land. I feel like I have the game in the bag, because soon I can just start recurring ichorids infinitely and getting tons of tokens ontop of that. Unfortunately, I let him keep his brainstorm and he ended digging up a crypt, knocking a good half of my graveyard out of the game. I was cold after that, and he dropped two werebears and a goyf that went all the way.
0-1-0
Round 2: Cort playing Mono Red Sligh
Game 1 - As soon as I saw the mountain, chain lightning, I knew that I was going to be in trouble...cause I kept a slow hand...and had mulled to 5. I end up dredging off imp and thug, hitting narcomoeba and a therapy. I therapy him naming lightning bolt. I see: chain lightning x2, lava spike, flame rift, spark elemental, and fireblast. Of course, all of that hits my face before I can effectively go off.
No Board lol.
Game 2 - I kept a greedy hand and ended up therapying myself turn 1 for GGT. I ended up dredging out 3 bridges, which were promptly removed by a well-timed tormod's crypt. He keeps laying down the burn, chipping my life slowly - 17, 14, 11, 8....However, I eventually get two ichorids in the yard with enough food to keep swinging in his face. He ends up getting stuck on his mountain + barbarian ring, meaning he couldn't fireblast me for the win. Ichorids got there!
Board // -1 DA // +1 grudge
Game 3 - Mulligan to 5 again, but decided to EOT troll. Meanwhile, he kept chipping away at my life and I was afraid to dredge too far (in fear of spark elementals or mogg fanatics eating my bridges). Luckily, he is stuck on two lands again...and when he didn't cast flame rift + fireblast and incinerate instead, I decided to go off. I untapped, cast breakthrough on thug, hit two GGTs in the process, two narcomoebas, therapy myself, dread return sage, dredge a million more, and FKZ him for some ridiculous number. Very, VERY close game.
1-1-0
Round 3: Jam playing G/W Good Stuff Beats
Game 1 - I see him play savannah, birds of paradise. In my head I was thinking: want to concede right now? JK! I turn 1 gamble for GGT (since I had LED and breakthrough in hand). Luckiest thing all day: GGT gets yarded. He follows by casting sakura tribe-elder. I untap, dredge GGT, LED, breakthrough - crack LED in response, dredge into triple bridge, and FKZ him for the win.
Board // -DR package // +2 needle, +1 ray, +1 grudge
Game 2 - He mulligans down to 6 and plays crypt. I kept a pretty slow hand, but dropped a gemstone mine and played needle naming crypt. Apparently his hand was very slow as well and we played go-fish for a few turns. Eventually, I find a GGT and begin dredging. He grips my needle and crypts me, then witnesses back crypt. I end up grudging his crypt, and then dredging again. He was pretty much cold after that. I hit several very good dredges, including three bridges, narcomoebas, and therapy. I eventually ran him over with zombie tokens.
2-1-0
Round 4: Matt playing RG Survival
Game 1 - I mull to 5 (I am seriously hating my deck at this point). I have to double therapy myself just to keep on dredging troll. Meanwhile, he plays birds and some beats. I end up flashing back double DA, hitting triple bridge, flashing back therapies to destroy his hand, and swinging in with 9 tokens and 4 ichorids the ensuing turn.
Board // -DR package, -1 breakthrough // +4 needle, +1 ray
(I REALIZE MY MISTAKE HERE: it was an obvious choice to bring in LotV, but I was an idiot and didn't even think about it...not having playtested or even expected RG Survival.)
Game 2 - I end up making a gutsy play, involving cracking my LED early and trying to flashback DA with GGT in the yard. My DA is forced! I'm pretty much cold after that after he gets spore-lock on me followed by survival advantage.
Game 3 - I mull to 5 AGAIN (although he mulls to 5 as well). I actually don't have good notes on this one, but it was a very slow game. I keep basically an unplayable hand (I have a really hard time going below 5 cards...in fact, I almost never do), but manage to top a GGT and begin my EOT dredging. I end up casting LED and flashing back two DAs (with a land, of course) hitting three bridges and slowly making tokens with ichorids to overcome his birds, wall of roots, and various other irrelevant creatures.
3-1-0
Round 5: Ben playing Spanish Inquisition
Game 1 - I knew Ben was playing SI cause my buddy had fought him earlier and beat him with UWb fish. With this in mind, I try to keep a fast hand. He decided to play, and passes the turn (wanting to go off on an 8-card hand instead of 7). I play therapy on him naming dark ritual and missing, but seeing: 2 0cc creatures, cabal ritual, land grant, chrome mox, tendrils of agony, and infernal tutor. He untaps and doesn't have enough to go off just yet, so he land grants for a land and passes. Big mistake. I untap, LED, dump my hand, and coliseum + flashback DA into dread return sage. I therapied him 4 times, removing tendrils, cabal ritual, infernal tutor, and the dark ritual he just drew...while having 4 bridges. He had nothing and died the next turn.
Board // -1 thug, -1 ichorid, -2 gamble // +4 chain of vapor
Game 2 - I mulligan to 5, he kills me turn 2.
Game 3 - I miss with therapy on the play, and he kills me turn 1 on the draw.
3-2-0
Round 6 (final): Jacob playing Affinity
Game 1 - He plays great furnace. I play double LED, crack one, drop GGT, flashback DA into 2 more GGTs and another DA, crack LED, flashback DA again, hitting more GGTs and my last DA, flash that back, hitting 4 narcomoebas and 3 bridges. I then therapy him once just to see what else was in his deck then proceed to FKZ for 30+.
Board // -DR package, -1 DA // +4 needle, +1 grudge
Game 2 - We both go pretty slow. I'm moving at a moderate pace with my dredges (using EOT troll). Eventaully I hit double ichorid and a single bridge: we being racing. At this point, I'm sure he has needle, but at the same time, I can't stop dredging or else I'll lose the race by A) not having enough bridges or B) not having enough ichorid food to keep racing. He topdecks the crypt, removing all of my ichorids and bridges, sacs his board to ravager and kills me.
Game 3 - I am angry at my deck at this point, and decide that I just want for some higher power to give me the god hand. Just once. So I say screw it and board out my needles, putting back my DR package - I wanted to win fast against affinity. I get a crap hand and end up cracking LED quite early to flashback grudge on his lands, while putting dredgers in my yard. He's stuck on one land, and I untap, dredge, and hit bridge + narc + therapy. I therapy him, naming ravager - I see: thoughtcast, frogmite, frogmite, plating. HE IS STUCK ON ONE LAND AND HAS 1 GENESIS CHAMBER. Of course, he untaps, draws seat, plays frog frog, plays thoughtcast, then crypts me from the last card he draws off thoughtcast. G_G. I'm cold after that: he draws another land equips and swings with tokens / frogmites. I chump and die soon after.
3-3-0
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Conclusions and Notes:
-The plays that usually make or break me really are my therapies. For example, naming a cantrip vs threshold when I know they have very few outs or naming cards that I know will definitely put my opponent in a position to turn the tables. I cannot stress how important and key this is to your deck.
-Boarding versus aggro is pretty much a nightmare. On one hand, you want to bring in lots of cards to deal with their hate. On the other, you want to maintain your speed so you don't fall behind or lose to fanatic/ravager shenanigans. I, for one, feel that cutting the FKZ package almost makes the deck feel very sluggish and almost unbearable to play. You dredge, but you can't dredge too fast cause you don't want to get crypted...but at the same time you aren't really getting anything done against their fast clocks.
-I didn't think crypt would be that bad, since I played against it in standard. But the way this deck dredges is far superior and can cost you games if you over-do it. Granted my opponents always RIPPED CRYPT at the most opportune moments, Chalice of the Void is definitely something I would consider in my board for future tournaments.
-I suppose most of you want to know whether or not Gamble was good for me. My answer? It was solid. I wouldn't say it was amazing, but I DO wonder what life would've been like if I had another Dread Return for those moments where I was always a bit short of killing my opponent right then and there.
-Screw topdecked crypts.
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Overall I was pretty disappointed with my performance, but I can't blame anyone but myself. My lack of experience with the various decks in the format coupled with my poor ability to foresee crypts / deal with that aftermath cost me many games. I'm not sure if it's something that can be helped, but a topdecked crypt is usually pretty brutal because it comes when you least expect it. On a side-note, I think I would've done much better with Belcher, cause I know more than half the decks I played against probably wouldn't have been as easily ready against me as they would have been against Ichorid. I'd like to give a couple of shout-outs to people who have been helping me understand and develop this deck for over a month now, constantly pushing me to overcome my fear of hate (which is now re-installed -.-) and teaching me how to play it correctly --
Major props to:
Bovinious (Scragnoth) - for pretty much answering all of my questions regarding dredge - all the time, anytime.
Tacosnape (Death by Teatime) - for introducing the basics of the deck to me.
Brehn (Felixandra) - for the last minute help in deciding which variant of the deck to run.
My buddy John - for making top 8 in his first legacy tournament...ever.
Ben - for playing my kinda deck - SI FTW!
Game Empire in San Diego - for hosting a 50+ man tournament with awesome top 4 prizes.
and everyone in the Ichorid thread for providing constant updates and feedback regarding the performance of the deck!
Thanks for all the support and don't let this deck succumb to hate!
A couple things..Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
Putrid Imp cant block if he has thresh.
Against Survival board needle if you have it not Leyline. Pithing Needle can name Survival or Spore Frog.
Against Affinity you bring in Leylines to stop Ravager and tog from rapping your Bridges. I usually dont bring in Needle but Chalice if im on the play.
Does SI play Leyline of the Void in the board? I have no experience against it.
Leyline shouldve come in against the Red Sligh deck playing Spark Elementals and Fanatics. Both are worse for you than Crypt. Chalice is amazing against them.
Ive reduced my mulligans by taking Gamble's out of the deck and keeping Putrid Imp count at 3. Running Street Wraiths in those slots has allowed me to draw into shit I need for free and play manaless much more often.
Ichorid kills become much more viable with the additional black creatures.
Ive been playing Chalice over Needle for a while now. I never looked back.
Chalice for 0 can break the mirror match.. btw.
With less Putrid Imps and no Needle SB do you think its safe to reduce the land count? Im considering trying -2 Gamble, -1 Gemstone, for 3 Street Wraith after playing Street Wraith in Extended, where I think it is a bit better because you run Careful Study. It def seems like it could be good here as well tho but I really dont think cutting a PImp is wise, especially since PImp makes Street Wraith so much better, giving an extra dredge on turn 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Im still not sold on this Chalice vs. Needle thing, they will be on the play game 2 and can go Crypt go game 2 and your Challice just sits there looking pretty, has casting Needle at :1: really been than much of a problem?
Yesmilord: With SI and Affinity you faced two horrible matchups, so it's not as bad as you might think.
What? You've reduced your mulligans by cutting Putrid Imp, the second-to-best turn 1 play of the deck and a main reason you don't lose to a Crypt, to 3? How does that work? I'd rather cut the Coliseums to play 12 rainbow lands, so I can cast him consinstently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Sure, manaless is cool and with Street Wraiths you can win quite fast and consistently without playing a land. But I have two questions: 1) Is playing manaless fast enough vs aggro decks? and 2) Don't you always board the Wraiths out, considering that they do nothing but draw a random card when you're facing hate?Quote:
Running Street Wraiths in those slots has allowed me to draw into shit I need for free and play manaless much more often.
Casting Needle isnt a problem. Having sideboard space for it is. This is my current board..Quote:
Originally Posted by Bovinious
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Chalice
2 Ray
4 Leyline
1 Crippling Fatigue
Crippling Fatigue is for Gaddock Teeg, its a meta specific sb card so dont go wild on me. Mr T is devestating to your gameplan and I need a way to rid him aside from Cabal Therapy.
I havent completely cut PImp. Ive had him as a three of compared to alot of other peoples list which run 4. My most current list is posted.
I removed 2 Gambles and one Gemstone Mine. The same idea you have.
@Brehn.
Like I said I still run 3 PImps I didnt completely cut him. I reduced my mulligans because manaless ways to dredge make hands a hell of a lot better than a red spell that requires one of 8 other cards in the deck to be cast. Not to mention, it needs to be cast, not cycled.
Coliseum is the very best source of dredging in the entire deck. Never ever cut it. Its the only uncounterable way to dredge aside from your draw step. (unless of course your running SW's)
1) Playing Manaless against aggro is a bad idea since its often too slow a method, however a manaless way to dredge against these decks can give you the speed you need to beat them. You should note that alot of aggro matches come down to their guys vs your Ichy's. Aggro can often remove Bridges with Fanatics or what not, SW's give more fuel to your Ichorid returns.
2) Yes you board out SW. One of the best parts about having the hollow spaces in your deck.
I wish I could fit a 4th. Im thinking of removing the 4th Ichy or 3rd DA. Afterall I only own 3 foil Ichorids. :tongue:
If casting Needle isnt a problem then why are you running Chalice over it? Needle works on the play or draw and Chalice only on the play, do you think Chalice at 0 really cripples storm decks or something (who again will be on the play for game 2)?
street wraith for me replaces 2 gambles, a mine, and a thug. This doesn't screw up any of the numbers does it?
Im not sure, I dont think I really like cutting a land and leaving 4 PImps because you wont be able to cast him as much, and I dont think cutting an Imp is good either. Also Id stay at 11 dredgers too, which basically leaves the 2 Gamble slots and 2 undecided for me, I hate how theres no room and I cant decide!Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz
I have been a lurker on the boards for a while and I have seen many instances where some new guy comes in and says that his (or her) version of the deck is the nuts and everyone else has been doing it wrong for ages. So I will try not to do that, but I think you guys should really consider my thoughts on this deck. Brace yourselves, I cut Lion's Eye Diamond, Dread Return, Narcomeoba and added Ashen Ghoul.
Mana- 14
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise
Creatures- 30
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Ichorid
Spells- 16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge From Below
Why this deck is better:
-You don't have to over commit yourself. Lion's Eye Diamond and Dread Return both require you to over commit yourself, either by making you put all your eggs in one basket or by not working without half of your library in your graveyard, leaving you vulnerable to graveyard disruption. So I replaced those cards for slower but more reliable cards, Tireless Tribe and Ashen Ghoul.
-Game 1- If your opponent has disruption, this deck will give you a much better shot at winning. If they don't, it is still pretty explosive and you should still be in good shape. In games 2 and 3, regular Ichorid sides out Dread Return for disruption, so you might is as well design the deck with that condition heavily in mind.
-Consistency. This deck is as counterspell proof you can possibly hope to be. Also, Meddling Mage does little and Mr. T does nothing. There is no single card this deck desperately needs to resolve. Also, Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe are a really great opening for the deck, and with 10 rainbow lands, it happens all the time. Also, no more dead Narcomeoba's in your opening hand (or the 5 Dread Return cards) and look how redundant the deck is-
14 Mana (Cephalid Coliseum, Rainbow lands)
16 Card Draw (Breakthrough, Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum, Street Wraith)
12 Discard (Putrid Imp, Tribe, Careful Study, Tireless Tribe)
10 Dredge (obvious)
12 Win (Bridge From Below, Ichorid, Ashen Ghoul)
4 Disruption (Cabal Therapy, But if you flash 'em all back, thats 8!)
This also means that you can shave a card here in there if you want to work in a set of Thoughtseize without major consequences. (Maybe -1 Tribe, -1 Wraith, -2 Ghoul)
-Street Wraith- Maybe it's just me, but I really like Street Wraith in the deck, and it is fantastic to finally have room for a set.
Obviously, an opening hand of 3x Golgari Grave-Troll, Lion's Eye Diamond, Deep Analysis, Cephalid Coliseum, and Street Wraith in the regular version is better then this deck, but I think that a hand with Putrid Imp, Rainbow land, Golgari Grave Troll and Careful Study and is not much worse and a lot more likely.
Cutting Dread Return isn't that far-fetched.
Cutting Lion's Eye Diamond is probably a bad idea, but it at least has logic behind it if you're going for consistency over explosiveness. However, the fact that you cut Deep Analysis along with it is a terrible idea. Deep Analysis gets 100 times better without Lion's Eye Diamond, because your chances of hitting 2 land per game skyrocket.
Cutting Narcomoeba is lunacy. At the very least, Narcomoeba + Cabal Therapy is how you beat combo and various forms of hate. At the most, it's a nutbar way of generating multiple zombies while disrupting your opponent. There is no way this card should be cut, ever.
I must admit I like the concept of Ashen Ghoul, though.
I like Deep Analysis, too, but the chances of the deck hitting 2 mana with only 14 lands is still pretty slim and I really hate staring at my graveyard when I only have a lone City of Brass for mana, and I really like having everything cost 1. Also, with 8 Putrid Imps, you don't usually anymore then your original 7 cards. But perhaps it should be played in spite of all that.
You are probably right about Narcomeoba, too, but one thing to note is that deck sort of makes up for it with other more Cabal Therapy victemns in the form of Tireless Tribe and Ashen Ghoul. And like I said, you there is room for playset of thoughtseize which could make the difference up.
Man, I can all ready tell Street Wraith is going to get cut. :(
Me too, I could see the black activation being worth the extra 2 power compared to Nether Shadow(maybe). How often do multiples in the yard become a waste? I dont really imagine being able to pull out 2 during an upkeep that often so a second in the yard is kinda meh. Sure you could pull it out next turn potentially, because they stick around, but who wants to have to wait?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Is it ever a problem with the fact that Ashen GHoul comes out "during your up keep" while Ichorid is "at the beginning"? I mean, are there ever times you have to choose between one or the other because you would go under the 3 creature requirement for Ashen Ghoul by removing the black creature and the Ichorid from your yard?
Nether Shadow is beginning of upkeep, so you could stack it in front of an above Ichorid, right?
Is 10 dredgers enough? Even in the Vintage version with Bazaars, I feel that going below 12 is a crime against the deck.
I'd have to agree about NOT cutting the Narcomoebas. Those and the Bridges are the cards from FS that gave this deck a nudge to the upper tier.
What about the Baubles (Urza's & Mishra's)?
Well, if in Vintage it works...