Why doesn't Landstill care? They tend to run so many colors that you can just color screw them. I have won many matches against Landstill on the back of wasteland.
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Why doesn't Landstill care? They tend to run so many colors that you can just color screw them. I have won many matches against Landstill on the back of wasteland.
Well, if you want to know does it have any value? My personal answer is no. The deck is too tight to bother disrupting a mana base. Your card choices are to precious and too few to waste them on such denial.
That's an interesting point that I hadn't considered. Whenever I think about playing landstill I always remember games when they had tons of lands on the board and wasteland would have been more than useless. Also, most of the builds I play against play loam and tutors to get it (usually intuition), which invalidates wasteland too. I guess that you could color screw them early in the game and then win before they get loam going, but it still doesn't seem that strong against them. But even if we assume it is somewhat good against them, I think my question of whether or not to include wasteland is still valid.
Kronicler
Why do people love Sleight of Hand so much? It seems that Impulse is better, with the ability to use it at the opponent's end of turn and twice the dig depth being worth the 1 colorless mana.
Threshold needs Thresh and Sorceries for Goyf, but there's always Portent and Serum Visions, both of which dig deeper than Sleight and can get rid of bad topdecks just as Sleight can. (Portent can also mess with your opponent.)
I haven't played Thresh much so if the mana cost of Impulse is just too high, I'll take your word for it. Regardless, there seem to be better cantrip options than Sleight. Why would you play something other than Brainstorm, Portent, and Serum Visions as your first 12?
Just a born-again newbie trying to understand. Thanks!
The only real cantrip that gets played above 1 cc is Predict. You want to only invest one mana to find an answer, because you won't be laying many lands over the course of the game.
I don't think you should, except Predict. 4 Brainstorm 4 Portent seems obvious, some combination of Serum Visions and Predict to round out the engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
I play Mental Note over Portent in my 12 cantrip package. Note gets Mongoose up to speed faster, it has solid synergy with Tarmogoyf by filling the yard with more card types, and I run 2 Fledgling Dragons, so Thresh is especially relevant to my build. If I dropped the Dragons, I'd probably switch to Portent.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
I actually prefer Sleight over both SV and Portent at all times except turn 1, because it gets me the card I need NOW (on turn 1 getting the card you need doesn't matter because you're tapped out and already made your land drop).
I don't really like Mental Note but then I only use 1 F.Dragon and that because I am missing a Goyf.
Sleight of Hand is only better than SV in the particular instance where your top card is garbage and the second one isn't. If the order is reversed, or if both cards are good, or both cards are bad, then SV is better. I'll take SV (or Portent) over SoH all day long.Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH
If you haven't heard about it yet, "Think" is in Lorwyn, which is an instant speed portent that doesn't make you wait to draw. At least now the cantrip base will always almost start with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Think. The last 4 will still be argued about, of course.
IMO the last 4 need to be sorceries in order to feed goyf.
Kronicler
I really hope the name is better than "Think" - there's enough synonyms. 'Ponder,' for one.
If Think is indead an instant the cantrip base is going to need some real tweaking. Running less then 4 sorceries will make it difficult to keep Mr T. as a 4/5.
my current configuration:
4 Predict
4 Portent
2 Serum Visions
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
Fairly standard.
-2 Serum Visions is an easy cut
-1 Predict is feasable but I cant see going below three.
So I guess +3 Think untill testing shows that cutting a Portent (or two) is worth it.
I still believe the 4th Predict should stay in the deck, since it is always nice to find ways to shuffle up the deck for other copies of Think and Top. But it might be better to cut 2 Visions and 1 Predict for a 3 of them. This may be another big thing for Thresh since Counterbalance and Goyf.
But this will seriously give the Threshold variants with Wastelands and Stifles more leverage. If you think about it, you can keep mana open to play Spell Snares and Stifle. This is amazing!
It also makes Counterspell more useful since you can keep mana open longer with a cantrip base consisting mostly of instants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
Tru dat. Could this be a reason to put the 3rd Counterspell back in? I'm not sure yet, but with a cantrip base with mostly instants, I see this as a good reason to debate over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
My only hope now is that "Think" has an awesome art like Portent or MM Brainstorm. Serum Visions just reminds me of that hot girl at a nightclub getting high on ecstasy.
Two more lists from german champs....
#1 Threshold
Bernd Hartmann
Mainboard:
2 Polluted Delta
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Flooded Strand
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Opt
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mental Note
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Fire
Sideboard:
2 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroclasm
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
and
#5 Threshold
Frederic Timmer
Mainboard:
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Burning-Tree Shaman
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Daze
2 Repeal
2 Vedalken Shackles
4 Predict
4 Fire
Sideboard:
1 Deepcavern Imp
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Pyroclasm
3 Magma Jet
3 Pithing Needle
1 Flowstone Embrace
Very different approaches.
The 1st place list is almost your exact maindeck from legacy champs except for slightly different fetches, huh gooba? If you were to make any changes, what would you do? Did you like the 2 mental note? Were spell snares that useful? What about Fire//Ice? Did you ever feel threat light? It seems like 8 creatures isn't enough against landstill or other board control decks.
Kronicler
That's not the first place list, just a top 8 list. Yeah, same list. The only change I would make is adding counter-top to the board. I hate mental note, it would probably be good to have 2 tops maindeck. Spell snares are amazing, as is fire ice. 8 Creatures is perfect for my controlish play style.
Question for all...
With the upcoming popularity of cephalid breakfast does anyone think that Burning Tree Shaman is going to be put into the side board to answer the nomad triggers? It's slow, but it would make a better threat slot than dragon in this match up?
Not just for that reason, but BTS is a solid beat. He does not require 2 Red like Fledging, which with all the Wastelands and Stifles running around will be more difficult to maintain. Unlike Fledging, you don't have to have Threshold to take advantage of him. As you as already pointed out, his drawback can be used as a boon in certain scenarios.Quote:
Originally Posted by BoardinCharlie
I don't think he'll be that beneficial in thresh. Each fetch will now cause 2 points of life loss, each top activation will cause life loss, and every wasteland effect will cause a point of life loss. I don't know if he's worth it in comparison to the dragon either. Dragon flies, and most likely you'll have threshold by the time he comes down, and he finishes games.
As for the breakfast matchup I think pithing needles and maybe echoing trouth out of the board is a bit better than BTS.
Each fetch, but you can't cast him until you have 3 lands. I don't believe that is a concern. As for Top, not everyone plays Top/CB. The people that do will be taking damage for each peek. Again, like I stated before this is where his drawback is actually beneficial.Quote:
Originally Posted by zulander
If your not playing CB/Top so you can play BTS you are beating yourself over the head for no apparent reason. Post board CB is one of the best strategies in magic right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
I never said that is why to play BTS, but Top/CB isn't good in all meta. Sometimes a more balanced board is appropriate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
Not exactley.Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
I posted "my" list some time ago and I was shouted at for running BTS.
Now people are trying to run NQGr with counterbalance, but I can't really agree with that somehow, even though a counterbalanced build with Sea Drake looks exotic.
But I think BTS is nuts atm., especially now that Counterbalance-SDT and Landstill got their hypes.
This is currently the most popular build in Germany since Baseruption also became a competitive mainstream deck. And NQGr should be the right call against Baseruption:
// Lands
2 [RAV] Island (1)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tropical Island
4 [B] Volcanic Island
// Creatures
3 [GP] Burning-Tree Shaman
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [AP] Fire/Ice
2 [GP] Repeal
4 [OD] Predict
4 [IA] Portent
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
It doesn't run Counterspell or Pithing Needle because you won't have any problems against Wasteland when you play the cantrips well.
And Counterspell is not very flexible.
BTS jams the Counter-Top Engine and makes it suck. And he also does some extra damage against Landstill. He's independant from Threshold and has got CC3, so he's usually out-of-range for Counterbalances.
I also think that build fullfills the concept of being a "tempo-deck" the best. You got Ice, Repeal and vedalken Shackles to influence the damage race, BTS as a solid beater AND extra-damage source and Burn.
Running Counterbalance means that you completley give up the concept of the tempo deck.
@zulander and everyone: only completley stupid people run SDT and BTS at the same time!
And if you play it right Fetchlands won't cause that much damage. Anf even if 1 fetchland costs you 2 Life, so what? it will also cause 2 Damage everytime the opponent fetches. Plus, you control BTS. So you will deal more damage to your opponent than 1 fetchland deals to you.
Ughhhhhh, Think is actually named Ponder and it is actually a sorcery. Back to the cantrip base debate, eh? Think vs Portent vs Serum Visions. Ready, Set, Go!
Kronicler
I like Ponder. It's Sorcery, so it won't cause a disadvantage concering Tarmogoyf's P/T.
A lot of people play Portent because they prefer to play controlish, gaining lots more CQ. Others play Serum Visions because it's a full cantrip, draws solutions right when it's played and then generates a littlebit CQ because of Scry.
So, wrapping up:
Portent: "controlish", digs up to 5 cards until the next mainphase, can be abused for "tutoring" Bunrspells or Fatties. Slower because it's a slow-trip.
Serum Visions: more aggressive, supports the aggro-strategy better because it's a real cantrip. Generates less cardquality. Digs only up to 4 cards until the next mainphase.
Ponder: Also digs up to 5 card until the next upkeep, can be played controlish as well as aggressive, depending on the situation.
IMO the perfect mix between Portent and Serum Visions.
Ponder is the perfect mix between the positive things of Serum Visions and Portent.
So, my taste: Brainstorm > Ponder > Portent > Serum Visions
Kronicler: are you sure? As far as I can tell, it's still a point of contention. I'm not sure why the partial spoiler has it as a sorcery. The discussion begins around #186.
It's not going to be a three-way debate. At the very least, Ponder replaces Portent in the Serum Visions vs. Portent debate. Portent's "mess with your opponent's library" effect doesn't come up often enough to outweigh the benefit of drawing a card immediately. Really, I don't think there's much to debate anymore. Ponder lets you look at the top 3 cards and draw the best one immediately? Or shuffle them away if they suck? Yes, please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kronicler
Actually I'm not 100% sure, but I think they got an actual (aka official) translation from the magazine and that's where they got the name Ponder and the fact it is a sorcery. This could be wrong of course, so no one start building / breaking apart decks based on this fact.
Kronicler
Your going to have to explain how BTS makes the Counter-Top plan suck. If you think taking a single point of damage to counter a spell of yours "sucks" then I really don't understand. And if your trying to race to get creatures into play before top comes down. I.e. Tarmogoyf on turn two and BTS on turn three you are going to be running right into a crap ton of Dazes and countermagic. Essentially you are not running Top or CB in order to support BTS. This makes TES, Belcher, Cephalid Breakfast, burn, and many other matchups worse for it. If your going to run anything other than Dragon you might as well run nothing at all. CB addresses more matchups then BTS could ever hope to effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
You should really play something else than Threshold if you are are really that stupid playing 2nd turn Goyf or 3rd Turn BTS right into Daze.Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
BTS is good against Counterbalance-Top, because:
- He pings everytime your opponent uses SDT
- He is CC3, so he won't be countered by Counterbalance
That are 2 good reasons to run BTS. He's even a faster beater than Fledling Dragon. And do you think you won't play into Countermagic when dropping Fledgling Dragon??? You could play into countermagic with almost EVERYTHING, so that argument is just...stupid, sorry.
And why should I play CB and Top to support BTS?! SDT+BTS? I think you really missed something.
And TES and Belcher are matchup you usually lose to g1, but g2 and 3 are safe for you. So what? Fledling Dragon is also too slow.
Cephalid Breakfast is already a positive matchup. And BTS is also good against Breakfast (just in case you don't know why: Aether Vial, Normads and Shaman en-Kor).
And Burndecks...well, you can simply race them because BTS is also a fast beater.
The main problem I got with counterbalance is that the deck itself will become a aggro-control with a nod to control, so running Counterbalance AND SDT means a higher permanentcount. The higher the permanentcount is, the worse Mimble Mongeese gets because you will get Threshold later than usually.
I don't suppose Thresh decks can use Troll Ascetic can they?
Too heavy green and the cost is high for only a 3/2.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I tried it before Tarmogoyf was printed. Playing Troll Ascetic isn't a problem; keeping 1G open to have it survive through combat or mass sweepers is.
I don't like the GG in the casting cost; its activated ability slows down the "use your mana to either cantrip, respond (Stifle, Spell Snare, etc.), burn/tap (Bolt, Fire/Ice), cast a creature, etc." plan, so I don't like it. From my point of view, it kind of goes the opposite direction of playing undercosted creatures with low cc cantrip and control spells to gain an advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
EDIT: Guess I typed slower than Jak and Nihil ;)
Try Burning Tree Shaman. I think he's wicked underplayed in America. Germany has been smashing with him for a couple years now. Seems like a nice way to mess with Nomad en Kors.
-Assuming he isn't handled, he'll ping the other Thresh player maybe 5-6 times total. Unless you're playing against a compulsive Topper. Even with Counterbalance, there's really only a few spells you need to stop in the mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
-Except they're usually bringing in Grips to combat SDT/CB if they think you're boarding it in. Meaning it's not hard to stick one on top and then Balance your Shaman.
If a fast beater for you is a 3/4 with an entirely useless ability in that matchup, then sure. Go-go 3/4 beats.Quote:
And Burndecks...well, you can simply race them because BTS is also a fast beater.
Except you're also playing Tarmogoyf, counterspells, and cantrips. I've yet to have a problem with Goose not getting big with the engine in play. I'm all for a higher permanent count (2 cards...) if it means I lock my opponent out of the game. As to SDT/CB, I'll quote Lam Phan:Quote:
The main problem I got with counterbalance is that the deck itself will become a aggro-control with a nod to control, so running Counterbalance AND SDT means a higher permanentcount. The higher the permanentcount is, the worse Mimble Mongeese gets because you will get Threshold later than usually.
Quote:
Top/CB will be in all winning Threshold decks. Games two and three will just be a race to see who gets their combo down first.
Aight guys, I usually wouldn't posts jank suggestions like this but I just have to. I was looking the P3K when I came upon what looks like a pretty strong card for threshold: Strategic Planning
It's kinda like impulse, but it puts the cards into your graveyard instead! So.... get the best card out of the top 3.... and add 3 cards to your graveyard? Seems good.
Kronicler