QFT, there really hasn't been any new material with DS to work with outside of Relic really =/.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda
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QFT, there really hasn't been any new material with DS to work with outside of Relic really =/.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda
I think one of my problems with this deck is that I suck at sideboarding, any help would be appreciated.
MB: 60
6 Fetch
3 Trop
2 Volc
3 Island
4 Factory
3 Waste
3 Naught
4 Goyf
2 Mage
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
1 T-Bind
3 Daze
3 CB
4 FoW
2 EE
2 Top
4 B-storm
4 Standstill
SB: 15
2 Pyroblast
3 Hydroblast
2 K Grip
2 Firespout
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
Firstly, I expect Ichorid is going to be running Needle from now on since Chalice won't be able to stop Relic, so I think a split between the two is going to be best.
Its pretty obvious when to cut Dazes/Snares for Blasts and when to cut EE for Needle, and against decks were you board out CB or Standstill to fit in Firespout and Grip, but I can't figure out what to cut for Magus, Grip and Firespout against matchups where CB and Still stay in.
For example against Survival
-1 EE, +1 Needle
-2 Daze, +2 Grip
Seems like a good place to start, but I have no idea what to cut for Firespout, and I think 1 Relic is going to be solid here.
Against Thresh:
-2 Daze/Snare for +2 Pyroblast
-1 EE, +1 Relic (if this is actually good)
Don't know what to cut for Magus, and if Grip and Needle are good , I am really lost.
Against ITF and Landstill
-2 Daze/Snare for +2 Pyroblast
-1 EE/+1 Needle
Against Still, I would probably just do -4 Standstill, +2 Grip, +2 Magus, but against ITF I think Still is pretty solid, but so are Magus and Grip there.
Evagreen/Sui/Homebrew
-2 Standstill, +2 Firespout
-1 EE/+1 Needle (if needed)
This seems the most reasonable, I am pretty sure I want all the counters.
The rest I am reasonably sure of:
Dragonstompy:
-3 CB/+3 Hydroblast
+2 Grip/-2 Standstill
+2 Firespout/-2 Standstill
The Rock
-1 EE/+1 Needle
-2 Daze/Snare/+2 Firespout (obviously not if its more like Tombstone, probably Magus instead)
Belcher
-3 Counterbalance/+3 Blue Elemental Blast
-1 Top/+1 Needle
-1 Top/+1 Firespout
TES/Fetchland Tendrils
-2 Spell Snare/+2 Pyroblast
Ichorid
-2 CB/+2 Crypt
-1 CB/+1 Relic
-2 Standstill/+2 Firespout
-2 Standstill/+2 Pyroblast
-2 Spell Snare/+2 Magus
Goyf Sligh:
-3 Spell Snare/+3 Hydroblast
-1 Standstill/+1 Needle
I'm currently writing a paper so I don't really have time go over all of the side strategies, but here are a few real quickly:Quote:
Originally Posted by bocci
Eva Green etc:
-1 E.E.
-1 Daze
+2 Firespout
Dragon Stompy:
-3 Counterbalance
-3 Spell Snare
-1 Tarmogoyf
-1 Sensei's Divining Top
+3 Hyrdoblast
+2 Firespout
+2 Krosan Grip
+1 Pithing Needle
Belcher:
-2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-2 Spell Snare
+3 Hydroblast
+1 Pithing Needle
T.E.S.:
-2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
-1 Engineered Explosive
-1 Tarmogoyf
+3 Hydroblast
+1 Pithing Needle
I'll do the rest of them later.
Why are you siding out the noughts? I would think that you would want to get one out quick so you can race them if at all possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by J.V.
You don't need nought if you establish control against either deck they literally cannot win, 1 factory will go the distance. And in the case of Ugr you also have tarmogoyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maagler
Are you sure about no Pyroblast/REB? Hitting their set up spells seems better than hitting Rite of Flame (I wrote Hydroblast in my plan originally but I meant Pyroblast).Quote:
Originally Posted by J.V.
No you need Hydroblast because of Vexing Shusher.Quote:
Originally Posted by bocci
Ok that makes sense. What are people's thoughts on threads of disloyalty? has It become an obsolete choice? With the amount of goyfs and Bobs running around I would think it to be a bigger sideboard option.Quote:
Originally Posted by J.V.
I'm pretty sure that he was referring to the combo match. So I really don't understand your suggestion of Threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maagler
Anyway, while looking through the lists from recent events, I really like Goyf in Dreadstill. Like, a lot. Is there an optomized URg list that I could get my hands on?
Just wanted to share you one of my concern.
I went to a tournament with URB list and got completly dominated by opponents. I came to the conclusion that Nought and Factories alone are not enough. A countered stifle/ destroyed nought is a huge card disadvantage.
I think green should be a standard for this deck. Its my opinion
Robert
This is a fairly optimized list (I still change a few cards around tournament to tournament because I'm like that, but yeah...)Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyroundman
Lands:21-22
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
2-3 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
Creatures:10
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage
Noncreature Spells:28-29
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3-4 Daze
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Trickbind
0-1 Relic of Progenitus
Choose 2 from the 4th Daze, Relic, and the 3rd Flooded Strand
Sideboard:15
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2-3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Firespout
1-2 Pithing Needle
If Relic is main then 2 Crypts and a 2nd Needle.
No I was changing gears a little bit. I meant as a general sideboards choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyroundman
As an alternative to J.V. I am testing his list with the following changes
21 land
- 1 trinket mage
+ 1 crucible of worlds
3 daze
+ 2 spell snare
- 1 relic of progenitus
I might consider relic of progenitus in the future, but as of now I consider it to be a sideboard option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega
Cough *tarmogoyf* Cough.
If I am casting Thoughtseize against a Dreadstill player, and I see a Dreadnought and a Stifle in his hand, which one do I make him discard?
Most list only play a single Trickbind, so I would take the Stifle. Dreadnought is dead without Stifle, but Stifle isn't dead without Dreadnought.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Also Trinket Mage = Phyrexian Dreadnought 5-7.
I'm currently trying Echoing Truth MD in a UGr version and I really like it. It answer a problem I had against lists with big fat creatures as Tombstalker and Countryside Crusher. Against Tombs, I bounce it and if there's any cards in graveyard remaining, I use Tormod to be sure the player can't recast it somehow soon.
When Countryside Crusher is in play and the player cast Devastating dreams, boucing the big fat paysant is kind of soothing.
I cut Spell snare to put this in in 3x copies.
Here is my list:
// Lands
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Island
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
// Creatures
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Trickbind
4 Stifle
3 Echoing Truth
3 Counterbalance
// Artifacts
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
// Sideboard
SB: 3 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Firespout
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 Chill
SB: 1 Propaganda
Notice that I'm a 61 cards fan.
To speak about the Sideboard, I tried Magus against 43 Lands, Survival Advantage, Pox & Aggro loam and pretty liked the result.
On an other note: What you think about the MU vs EvaGreen? I find it pretty 50/50 and hard.
50/50 against suicide is about accurate, they can simply disrupt you into oblivion and you never recover, but they lose to CB/T and have trouble answering Dreadnought in time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma
Also on the note of Maindeck E-Truth I tried it for a while and liked it, ultimately it was cut for more Counters, but it is solid in the maindeck.
Agreed...Sui-black of any form is tough. But the thing is if you can just land a CB you will normally win =/ that card owns the deck so hard. Standstill also hurts it incredible bad as well. It all depends on which variant you play against.Quote:
Originally Posted by J.V.
i've been meaning to post this for about 2-3 weeks now but haven't had time
i'm looking for some input/suggestions/thoughts on the deck and my ideas/questions
i played this deck to 9th out of 48 (ish) at the Binghamton $1000 tourney in September (should have probably been 8th, but i miscalculated points last round and just missed)
Ugr Dreadstill
-------------
3x Flooded Strand
3x Polluted Delta
2x Island
2x Snow-Covered Island
3x Tropical Island
2x Volcanic Island
4x Mishra's Factory
3x Wasteland
3x Phyrexian Dreadnought
3x Tarmogoyf
3x Trinket Mage
4x Brainstorm
3x Counterbalance
3x Daze
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Force of Will
2x Krosan Grip
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Standstill
4x Stifle
1x Trickbind
Sideboard:
2x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Hydroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
1x Krosan Grip
3x Firespout
2x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Vexing Shusher
i really like my maindeck and it plays amazingly well, the krosan grips are insane in just about every matchup as i'm always looking for 1 for something
yes i only play 3 goyfs, and would like to add another but have no room for one unless i play 61 cards or change the configuration of other stuff a little...which i'm considering
my main problem with the deck is standstill itself...the card is the most situational/conditional card in the deck...it's bad on the draw like 90% of the time and it's only good on the play like 50% of the time, and in general before that it's 50/50 whether or not you want it depending on the matchup
1) is standstill necessary/worthwhile? i'm debating cutting standstill for like +1 goyf, +2 echoing truth, +1 rushing river...this will give me my 4th goyf, and help shore up some matches...particularly ichorid and eva green (i consider this the worst matchup the deck has...it's 50/50 at best but my overall record against this is like 2-8 all-time, helps against empty the warrens, and helps against opposing goyfs and tombstalkers which if your opponent gets a tombstalker its basically scoop time unless i have nought out and lethal
2) are 4 mishra's factorys too many? i really want to add an academy ruins...this would definetly help when it comes to recurring engineered explosives, possibly getting a tormod's crypt/pithing needle back as well
i think that about sums up my questions, any input would be appreciated...don't suggest adding spell snare or changing colors or anything...i really like my deck as is...just considering the changes listed....and wondering if anybody else really hates standstills as much as me :(
thanks
I feel like there is some kind of connection between you not being too keen on both Mishra's Factory and Standstill, though I am not really sure what that might be. Play the deck slightly different? I used to be not such a fan of Standstill myself, running 3 Stills and 2 Ponders, but the more I play the deck, the better I have gotten at making Standstill work for me, and have since gone back to just 4 Stills.
Also, you are running 22 lands. Most people run 21, so you could get an extra Goyf by cutting a land, or you could make the 22nd land Academy Ruins.
Is the lone Trickbind you guys are using better than Merchant Scroll? It doesn't really seem to serve any purpose other than increasing the number of Dreadnought enablers, so why not just replace it with a tutor for Stifle and be able to grab Force of Will or bounce too?
I would cut the Shushers out of the board. I really can't think of a matchup where it's vital that you have shusher, considering he requires both your splash colors (or a double) to cast, and takes up mana trying to make your cards uncounterable. In most matchups where you want to win counterwars, you're better off with REB/Pyroblast anyways, as it doesn't require the same amounts of mana, and can catch your opponent off gaurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by psu24
After that you could move the grips/1 or 2 EE's into the board, and then have room for that 4th goyf you want. Also, I don't know how big Ichorid is in your meta, but I run at least 3 crypts in the board. Dunno what you would take out for it though.
As for standstill, I think it requires a certain type of play style for it to function properly. This deck has a desire to play out like Threshold does, but in reality we're a bit more control than they are. It's just that nought gives you hands that are actually faster than thresh is, so the deck feels more aggro-control than it really is. What I would suggest is that if you want to cut standstill, I would very much suggest cutting it for another, equally powerful draw engine. I have no idea what this engine is, but without a draw engine in the deck it's just not going to function as well.
the shushers are amazing and have won me so many rounds/games i can't think of them all, they get around counters, counterbalances and you don't have to pump mana into him until they choose to counter a spell, so it's basically a you can counter if you want to waste a spell...it's amazing
Gratz on Rod and Ben for kicking ass with the deck at the the 5 years aniversaries!
Now you two, guide us with your wisdom, Rod you talked about sideboard changes? What are they, my list is like 1 or 2 card of yours and i got a tourney comming up in 2 week, im curious as to what you would change.
Tks
I know the Q was not adressed at me but I could see those Pyroclasms become Firespouts.Quote:
Originally Posted by kilukru
The BEBs seems somewhat overkill aswell: Dragonstompy (UR Dreadstill laughs at moon effects). Goblins: More Firespouts would be better. TES/Belcher: MD kills both G2 (G3?_w..what?). Burn: CB wins those games easily.
I could see something along the lines of:
-2 Pyroclasm
-3 BEB
+3 Firespout
+2 Annul :smile:/ Threads of Disloyalty/Rushing River
Thoughts anyone?
Quote:
the shushers are amazing and have won me so many rounds/games i can't think of them all, they get around counters, counterbalances and you don't have to pump mana into him until they choose to counter a spell, so it's basically a you can counter if you want to waste a spell...it's amazing
They also feel distinctly win-more. You run quite a few counters, so you really shouldn't have a hard time winning counterwars against just about anything but like, hardcore MUC matchups. If you're looking for pure CB beatings, Kgrip is going to be a better, and more versatile, solution about 90% of the time. It also only costs {2G}, which is only a lone {G} for colored mana, which is a big deal in this deck. In comparison, to protect your first spell with Shusher, you have to have invested {R/G}{R/G}{R/G}, which is more taxing on the manabase. After that you should consider that Kgrip also hits quite a few spells in other decks. I, for instance, board in Kgrip against Dragonstompy as well as CB decks, whereas I wouldn't dream of trying to bring Shusher in against Dragonstompy, as it isn't going to do anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klaus
I haven't had BEB's in the board since before Gencon, and I really haven't minded not having them. The one time I missed them was against Goyf Sligh. Their creatures are fairly close to immune to firespouts, and I really want removal for stuff like Burning Tree shaman, which makes CB-Top really hurt. But if that's the only reason to have them, there's a better card for that slot, so I guess I agree with you.
I still wanna hear what they have to say, though.
Chalice of the Void would like to have a word with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda
The only creatures in Goyf Sligh that live through a Pyroclasm, much less a Firespout, are Tarmogoyf, and Figure if Destiny, if you happen to gt into the late game. Most lists don't even run BTS anymore. Are you sure that you don't mean 'Zilla Stompy?Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Red_Panda
Dreadstill wins source tournament guys...game over. Congrats on Ben (Force of Will) for taking 3rd with UGR Dreadstill as well. I've been saying for a while now that the UR build is a hell of alot more consistent in terms of your mana base and control aspect as oposed to UGR or UG with Goyfs. Final record at the end of it all was 8-0-2 with some very awesome matches all day. The maindeck was solid as hell, but the board could definetally be revamped...although it did help me a TON. Echoing Truth is savage.
Apparently Dreadstill is a good deck everyone, who knew? Tournament report will come shortly.
4 Force of WillQuote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Daze
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
3 Counterbalance
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
3 Trinket Mage
6 Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Voclanic Island
SB:
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Echoing Truth
2 Pyroclasm
Is there a matchup analysis for the UR Dreadstill somewhere? I am having trouble finding it, and as such would appreciate any help in finding one. Thanks :laugh:
I just playtested the winning list, Rood's, and while I have been really digging the UGR list I think this is may be better. Well, at least it is easier to play. 3 colors with so little land and it seems like everyone on MWS was playing at least wastelands...
I think that spell snare is viable in developed metagames. I am not sure what else could be done with it.
While I am not advocating cutting them I find that I am often pitching trinket mage instead of actually using him.
Rood's tournament report is up.
First of all, congrats on the finish. Seriously man, congrats.
In my playtesting I found that most of games are won just by Dreadstill's control tools and by Dreadnought, so your choice of going UR doesn't look weird to me, but I have to ask: Didn't you miss Goyf anytime? Having and un-grip-able decently-sized ass is sometimes awesome, so I'll remake the question: why did you leave Goyf out?
Manabase issues? Goyf been bad or just not that necesary? Ur being superior to UG?
This weekend I'm going to this and, well, I'm probably taking Dreadstill (even though it scoops to Shatter), so any comments about how is the most efficient Dreadstill shit right now will be appreciated.
Congrats again. :smile:
Quote:
Originally Posted by godryk
You basically have it correct, UR version is way more controlling...and Dreadnought is much more potent compared to UGR. The manabase of UR is incredible I can't even begin to say how many times I laughed at a PoP or Wasteland that tournament. 6 Basic Islands is rediculous, I don't care who you're playing against. That being said, I think UGR Dreadstill is a fine deck and can definetally take down a tournament. Good luck at the tournament ;).
-PS: Beware of Shatter it OWNS.
A tough on sideboard (again) for Ur version:
First the out's :
Seems like BEB is dropping out of favor and i can see why, DS is hardly played anymore, goblin is winable as it is, burn isnnt a bad MU at all and i have never played goyf-slight so i dont know how usefull it would be against them.
Beside that SB seem's good, (pyroclasm vs firespout is a personal choice)
Now what can we get in? i beleive that the main downfall of the deck right now, are the troublesome permanent that manage to resolve. So i propose a bad idea that could actuly work (I dont really like the idea but lets try it anyway)!
Add either K-Grip or O-Ring to board and either 1 Tropical island or 1 Tundra MB.
Ok I know about all teh flaw of this idea, lower the basic land count, 2nd splash vulnerable to LD with only 1 colored land etc... But from what ive seen, in the g splash the most loved g card wasn'nt goyf but K-Grip, same thing about the now dead w splash, everyone liked O-Ring in there because it took care of about everything the rest of the deck could not.
So,if anyone got somefree time, plz playtest this and give us a report, I got a tourney in a couple week and no real time for testing :) thanks
Can't say as I would ever cut BEB from my board...with the current rise of TES Shushers are going to be everywhere. Also Goblins will never really die out entirely and there's always going to be at least a couple of Sligh players.
Good thing for us most builds run answers to the trouble permanents =) (See E-truth, EE, K-grip, O-ring.)
kilukru if you're interested in a good white splash build that can handle mostly anything
// Lands
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
3 [REW] Wasteland
5 [ARE] Island (8)
3 [A] Tundra
// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [NE] Daze
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [WL] Serenity
That should work.
NOTE: Swords can be run in place of Ring but I elected to go for the permanent issue in this build.
4x can always be boarded as an option over Mage if you don't like him.
I think im gonna stick with the mono U MD, I like having a hight counter count against unknow opponents.
Am i the only one who's having trouble against fast agrro (from the mad zur's stat's of the source tourney seem like no, Dreadstill worst matchup where affinity and gobo)?
dregnought racing is a good solution but kinda ureliable, so SB ideas : Null Rod seem almost playable these day, it outright rape affinity and screw a good deal of combo engine (LED, petal, Mox) even if it's kinda slow in that role. Also take out EE and company.
Propaganda is good angainst gobo and elves, but affinity dosnt realy care much.
Im starting to see the use of a team in this game to test those dam theories! Well just corupting people around here to play legacy is already hard enought the team will come later, when i move out of this hole...
I assume your refering to Ancient Grudge, which does indeed wreck your day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roodmistah