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Swap a Bolt for a Ponder/Brainstorm and I'd keep this hand. Otherwise, big risk. I think if you do keep it though, you fetch Volcanic since Mongoose is useless until you cast all the other cards anyway, plus you already have a threat. If you know you're facing Maverick, than obviously you need the burn. But they can just win with Wasteland turn 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
Nivmagus Elemental U/R (hybrid)
Creature - Elemental
Exile an instant or sorcery spell you control: Put two +1/+1 counters on Nivmagus Elemental.
When it escaped, the experimenters hesitated. It would cause untold havoc, yet they wished to see it in action.
Illus. Mike Bierek #219/274 1/2
Do we think this is interesting?
Obviously you don't want to just go exiling brainstorms off the stack, but if that brainstorm is about to get hit by an opposing Daze/spell Pierce you have a 3/4 for 1.
If we dropped Spell Pierce for Flusterstorm, they need to pay for as many copies of the spell as they can, or else they get removed to flusterstorm and their spell gets countered.
You can fire off dead late game dazes as a +2+2 at the first spell you see (even your own). Spell Pierce seems dead less often, but still can be fired off as well.
To me it seems right on the fringe, but the bigger problem being that what do you cut. Mongoose's untargetablity is amazing, and tarmogoyf is easier to make huge.
I dont see the Nivmagus Elemental being playable at all. 2 cards for a 3/4 that can be killed with any removal (except red) and blocked by Knights/goyfs all day? I dont see it.
But most of the time it will not be 2 cards.
If you have him in play, and they go to counter something of yours, you just remove your spell to pump him, and fizzle their counterspell.
Same thing in counterwars, if they tap out to play a goyf, you daze it, they force your daze, you Force the goyf again, you remove the daze from the game - their goyf is countered and you pump your guy +2+2
I think flusterstorm is the real crazy interaction though.
They play a threat, you counter, they counter you flusterstorm. they allow the first copy to counter their spell, then you give your guy +6+6. They will always need to tap out as much as they can to flusterstorm.
But I think the big thing is that your first countered spell makes him a 3/4. In the mirror he gets bigger than any Goyf, and survives lighning bolt.
So you're saying this card is good as a consolation prize? I an uderstand that sometimes our conditional counters are dead and it's nice to get something out of the deal. Also sometimes your spells get countered, it's also nice to get something out of the deal. But is that something really worth the times when this guy is sitting there as a 1/2?
I can see this card trumping mirror matches since countering your creatures and not countering them won't matter as long as this guy is on the table but what about other matches? Show and Tell player counters your two conditional counters, this guy becomes 5/6 but opponent has an Emrakul now? Did it really matter? Against Maverick, what are you going to do with your 1/2?
Ya your probably right, it is probably terrible against MAverick/combo
I am not really thrilled about it for this deck. It seems like it can be useful if we ran lots of storm spells or if we want to get rewarded for running our spells into our opponents counters. I guess in some scenarios it can be decent by turning our out gunned soft counters into power on the board. I think most of the time I would rather just pitch those to FoW.
There might be some sort of fringe storm deck that could support this guy. But at that point, why not just kill your opponent with your storm spells?
Yea, he's way too situational I think.
In other news, I got third place at a small local tournament yesterday. Took home a foil misty rainforest as consolation prize. Report to follow soon.
It's a card that would be good in the mirror but is bad against Submerge and Mind Harness. I don't see how that should work out.
So yeah, got 3rd place in a small Legacy tournament yesterday at Toys N Things in Danvers, MA. Prizes were 4 Force of Wills for 1st place, and once 18 people were confirmed, they added another $140 in credit for the top 4. (60/40/40 for 2nd-4th) On with the Rounds!
Round 1, Daniel on Bant 12-post
I was on the play Game 1 and flipped an early Delver with some countermagic backup. I think I ended up drawing like 3 green creatures in a row at the perfect times, and he didn't manage to stabilize before I ran him over. Game 2 was similar, but he did manage to All is Dust away 2 Delvers and 2 Mongeese. I still had pressure somehow though, and he never got to cast an Eldrazi. He led both games with a turn 1 Pithing Needle on Wasteland, which did suck, but I just Brainstormed them away.
Win 2-0
1-0
Round 2, Ethan on Merfolk
Ethan is a friend, and we had glanced briefly at each other's lists before the tournament, so we knew we were in for a fun Tempo Mirror. I started on the draw games 1 and 2, winning the first and losing the second. I don't remember these games too well, but I know I got a pretty good mix of Burn, Threats, and Counterspells on time, and managed to pull it out in 3 games. Game 2 was by far our best game, with a multitude of trades back and forth, a heated race in the midgame with Mongoose/Goyf vs. Silvergill/Lord, and me finally succumbing to his unblockability 1 turn short of killing him on the backswing. Game 3 was something like double Goyfs to his low-action draw. I felt lucky to have beaten the Fishy menace, but unlucky to have to deliver a loss to a friend in Round 2. I also remember keeping 1-landers against him in Games 1 and 3, which obviously paid off due to some lucky Ponders.
Win 2-1
2-0
Round 3, Anthony on Elves!
Tribal again! At this point, a theme starts to form in my matchups at this gig. Game 1 I'm on the draw, but he starts to help me out with a Horizon Canopy, taking some damage while I flip an early Delver. At some point, he lands Mirror Entity, and turns it into a race, while I counter his key combo pieces and keep getting in there with Delver. I win with us both at 2. Canopy definitely hurt him this game. Game 2 I open with a hand of Submerge, Bolt, Wasteland, Delver, and countermagic. He is on the play and opens with Dryad Arbor, go. I consider the line for a second, and then happily open with Land, dude, Submerge the Arbor. He replays it next turn, I wasteland it. He doesn't draw another land. I miraculously beat Elves without even drawing Rough/Tumble
Win 2-0
3-0
Round 4, Keith on Maverick
Keith is another good acquaintance from the local scene, and I'm not happy to be playing him either. Maverick is not a good matchup, and Keith is no slouch. I lose the first, take the second with a fistful of tempo, and then just fold in the 3rd game when I keep a 1-lander to his Wasteland draw. The wheel comes around....
Lose 1-2
3-1
At this point, I'm a lock for Top 8, and draw with my Know-and-Tell-playing opponent (Joe).
Round 5, ID into Top 8
3-1-1
Top 8, Quarterfinals, Ethan on Merfolk (again)
Not cool, gotta play the friend again. I guess it happens when 30% of the tournament is your gang.
I'm on the play again game 1, he mulls to 5, and I get there quick with an early flipped Delver that he has no answer for. In game 2, he pulls the old, "Wasteland your Volc, Surgical your Volc" maneuver, and puts me off red. I somehow manage to draw enough lands, cantrips, and eventually threats to still beat him, despite having no way to stop his creatures. After discussing it post-match, he stated that he probably should have waited, and cut me off green instead. I'm sure that would have been worse for me, with no green beaters to win with, though I would have had a lot of removal for him to get through. I also forced his Vial this game, which was actually very relevant. Either way, these were some weird matches, and he didn't get any of the usual "Fish, Fish, Lord, Lord," KILL YOU draws that can beat RUG handily. I got pretty lucky here.
Win 2-0
Top 4
Top 8, Semifinals, Anthony on Elves! (again)
See the pattern here? Again, small tournament, but I would have REALLY loved to play against the combo decks, or even control. 5 Tribal matches gets a bit tiresome, and my luck only goes so far. Anyway, I get it to game 3, draw a killer hand with 3 red spells, including a Rough/TUmble, but he still manages to keep the cards flowing, and I eventually fold. It's possible I could have waited a turn to cast the Rough, and played a Goyf, but I was worried he would either go off or drop a 5/5 and draw enough cards to nullify my sweeper. Also, Mortarpod killed both my Delvers just before flipping, which was easily a game-winner for him.
Lose 1-2
3rd place
The top 4 was all willing to split prize to each take home a FOW and $35 credit, except one fellow (my round 1 opponent, coincidentally). I respect that decision, but it burns a little bit knowing that he also lost in the semis, costing us both a Force of Will. It happens though, and you can't be bitter. I probably could have played a little tighter and pulled out the win, but I also had done pretty well against the bad matchups all day, so I can't complain. I took the $40 and bought my first Foil Fetchland (misty). All in all, a good day, with good opponents.
I just hope Abrupt Decay wont pose that much problem for RUG.
a uncounterable 1:1 is still a 1:1
Yea I wouldnt worry too much. It's a great effect against us, but probably will end up being about as problematic as a turn 1 inquisition of kozilek out of the Rock decks. Solid removal for sure, but it's not likely to be a 4-of anywhere, and they still can't eat a Goose with it.
On a larger scale, I do think that a G/B/x zombies deck is likely to rise in legacy based on the power level of the golgari cards we are seeing. Maybe not, but gravecrawler, bloodghast, lotleth troll, and grisly salvage seem like a solid core for a zombie deck. I'll let Sam Black and Caleb Durward weigh in on that prediction before getting too worried, but it would probably be a reasonably bad matchup for us.
Many of the decks that can/will run Abrupt Decay weren't exactly positive MUs before. GB already has a ton of removal that hits us pretty hard so this isn't adding too much power to those decks. I am not too worried about Green/Black decks popping up as Maverick already does everything we are afraid of in an efficient shell (solid manabase, high threat density, tutoring, Thalia). There would have to be some really powerful interactions to knock Maverick off as the go-to blue hate deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Borealis
I am having trouble deciding between Fire/Ice and Forked Bolt. F/I pitches to Force, can tap down big dudes, and can be cast during an endstep. On the other hand, two mana is really steep and once a Thalia comes down it gets significantly harder to cast. Forked Bolt pumps Goyf and is much easier to cast but is far more rigid. I could just run a 1/1 split but I feel like that basically means I won't be able to find either card when I need it. My local meta has a lot of aggro, so I am leaning towards Forked Bolt but I am sucker for versatile cards. I am running an 18 lands/Stifle build.
A singleton Sylvan Library has been pretty good for me in testing. It really shines in slower MUs and landing it against some decks essentially means you can't lose. I am still trying out Sulfuric Vortex in the board but so far it has been pretty strong. It comes in against both Stoneblade and Miracles and seems to do more work against both than something like Krosan Grip or Envelop.
I am using Fire/Ice over forked bolt.
Ice is one of the only ways to push creatures through a 6/6 Knight/Ooze for the last few points of damage against maverick. But it does suck against Thalia.
I never really liked forked Bolt. If I was going to run a Sorc speed burn, I usually wanted it to hit for more (chain lightning).
Good points Apistat_commander. I think I'm actually more excited about building a G/B Durward type deck than I am worried about facing one with RUG. I wouldn't expect them to be tier 1, but don't be surprised if they pop up in top 8s for a few tournaments.
I'm also considering Sylvan Library, but I'm still seeing more combo and aggro than I am control. Maindeck is too tight, and I like my 30 spells for delver, but SB is an option for me. It would have to take the place of Vortex though, and as hard as Vortex is to cast, I think it's the better spell for miracles and blade decks.
I also prefer chain lightning right now and in general. I have 1 fire/ice and the roughs in the board, and I'd rather not concern myself too much with Thalia and friends. I am considering another submerge though.
I appreciate the opportunity for 2 for 1's presented by F/I and Forked Bolt. I have tried taking the deck in a more aggro direction with additional burn, but I wasn't happy with it in the end. I think I will try out F/I this week at my local tournament to see if I prefer it over Forked Bolt.
I see mostly slower aggro and control in my meta, so Sylvan Library is pretty good. I like it more than the 4th Spell Pierce at the very least. I have considered a 2/2 split of Pierce and Snare in that slot, but Snare feels too narrow to me. I could cut a copy of F/I to fit in 3 Pierce/2 Snare but I don't like how that plays against aggro.
I was reading through an older part of the thread and someone made an interesting point about Snare. We capitalize on tempo/LD so well that we can frequently keep an opponent at two mana, thus making Snare live for much longer. However that may just be outmoded thinking as the curve for relevant spells has expanded a bit. Is anyone else running Spell Snare to good results?
I feel like I rarely have the opportunity to 2:1 an opponent with Forked Bolt/Fire//ice.
If they play a Mom turn 1 - it needs to die now, not next turn. Randomly hitting a Heirarch in addition to thalia is nice, but it also occasionally doesn't matter that much if they have enough lands. It also seems that most of the opportunities to 2:1 your opponent come against Maverick, or from misplays. (I ran 2 unflipped delvers without back up into a forked bolt by mistake once, won't do that again)
I can definately see the logic behing Chain lightning. There are several MUs where Forked bolt/fire is just 2 damage to target creature/player, and it would be better as having the option to go 3 to the face with Chain than to hope for a relavent 2:1.
Right now I am running fire/ice because I am seeing a lot of Maverick/junk in my meta. So there are some opportunities to 2:1 the opponent, but I can also just tap down a resolved knight in an attempt to alpha strike for lethal as well.
If it wasn't for the abundance of Mav/junk though, I would be running Chain lightning.
I have been running the following counter package the past few weeks:Quote:
Originally Posted by apistat_commander
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
I have been pretty happy with it as a 2 of. The tough part is knowing when to cast it, hold it, or pitch it to a FoW. I think I am in a place where I know most of the decks that people play in my meta and therefore if it is useful or not in a particular match. Moreover if it is useful, I know what the key cards that I want to counter with it are.
That being said, I am not sure if the point about your opponent being held at 2 mana is relevant. My opinion on that would be you cannot predicate your strategy (and moreover deck composition) on your opponent only casting 2 cmc spells. Sure we may be able to keep them at 2 longer with the right hand, but it will ultimately come down to the specific deck. It might be chocked full of two drops or it might omit them. What I am trying to say is that while both Spell Snare and keeping your opponent at 2 lands are good for this deck, they may or may not have any relation or interaction to each other.
What do we think about Counterflux?
Counterflux :u::u::r:
Counterflux can't be countered by spells or abilities.
Counter target spell you don't control
Overload :1::u::u::r:
http://i.imgur.com/HpNC0.jpg
I will be the first to say, it sure seems on the high end of our curve. It is a hard, non-conditional counter spell that cannot be countered. So it seems like it could have some useful applications in some combo match ups. Moreover the Overload (even more on the high end), just blows out Storm decks. Then again, so does Stifle. I am interested in hearing thoughts on this new arrival.