[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

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Originally Posted by TiMeWaLk

@vilnico

Several questions // remarks about your list:

- How is the second Phyrexian Tower for you? I guess it is more important in a list with Rector.

- Do you really use Dryad Arbor? For what I remember, I always preferred to keep my GSZ for something better than a bad Llanowar on Turn 1. Later I can imagine you want to have a creature instead of a fetchland in hand (or search for a creature) because you play Diabolic Intent. Are you satisfied with the Dryad? I was not.

- I am really curious about the 3/3 Deathrite Shaman (DRS) // explorer split. I would love to hear why 3/3 instead of 4/2 or 2/4. For me the cards don't have the very same role. Is it a metagame call or just a test? I can't wait to hear the results :)

- No Sigarda?

- How are Vraska and Elspeth? The first one looks a bit too much like a very expansive Pulse while the second has this horrible WW in the casting cost.

- Why do you keep 1 wall of blossom without playing birthing pod? Is it worth it? I would put a 3rd sensei before a cantrip wall.

- I am sceptical about the Enchantements for creatures. It looks like a source of Card Disadvantage.

- How good are the lingering souls? Strangely, it would be my main motivation to play W in Nic Fit.

I hope it helps to improve your list :)


@thecheese

Bringing Vengevine in the deck is a weird idea for me:

- You make yourself very sensible to graveyard hate. It is really bad with DRS in the format.
- It is a gameplan that does improve any of the bad match-ups of Nic Fit.
- Vengevine without intuition, while you are playing cabal is really a shame.

It's probably not what you want to hear though :)

TW

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@thecheese: I agree with TW here, DRS shaman hurts a lot everything based on graveyard hate, which now comes somehow maindeck with DRS.
And anyway, Vengevine is too cute to be played in NicFit I believe. I anyway HATE it as it somehow caused SotF to be banned :maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad:
(Vengevine was not really the problem, Necrotic Ooze was way more serious)

@TW: First thing, that was what I would play. Which means I have not tested yet.
- 2 Towers: I have always been happy since I have included the second tower MD. Ok it happened few times that I had one that would do nothing in hand, but that can always be a card for Lili, at worse...
But yeah, I am quite a heavy player of Rector, so I really like having 2 Towers.

- Dryad: It is true that this slot is questionable. Truth is, I rarely play to have 2 mana T1, beacuse it often gets Wasted (so you unblank adverse Wastes, which is the complete opposite of the gameplan ^^)... I hear some people saying that it dies on Deed so it is bad (to this, I'd just say that yes it dies on Deed, but you should have plenty of mana by then no ? so to me it is not really a problem that it dies). I rather play it for quick Flashbacked Therapy, but it is always painful to do it I have to admit.
No the real reason is that it does the tricky Fetch-Block, it gives you a Creature for Nightmare if your board is empty, same for Pattern of Rebirth, or Diabolic Intent. So I like it better for its Late game value than for its Early value.

- Veteran/DRS split : Well, I would say a hardcore NicFit would keep it 4/2. As you say they do not have the same role, and at some point assuring an early Mana expand is better for the pack. So Veteran should have priority. The thing is: I said that DRS can give the pressure BGw Nic Fit had before it came out, but I don't feel playing 2 would be enough. Because as you said, it is a MUST removal target. So 3 is a minimum to me, and as it does a bit of mana too, I would test one less Veteran.

- In my opinion, there is no reason to play both Thrun and Sigarda. They are both just as bad vs Terminus, and as good beacuse they have Hexproof. But Thrun is 4CCM, so it goes out on GSZ faster theoretically. The sacrifice protection is not so important to me. Flying ? That would be the real advantage of Sigarda, but here Elspeth can help.

- Vraska: is indeed here to Pulse stuff (who said Jace ?). But being expensive, and being able to stack Pulses ? That is worth trying I say. (Ultimate is too cute in my opinion)

- Elspeth: I have always been happy of my 2 Elspeth before playing Omniscience version. WW is actually the reason why I have 2 basic Plains listed, so that I can get them on Veteran if I did not have the chance to fetch a Dual Wx. Other than that, it technically kills Jace (who says I have a grudge against him ? ^^). But Sorin could be replacing Elspeth, if you really don't like the WW.

- Wall of Blossom: It is true that it might be the 3rd Top here. But it stalls the aggro, also which Top does not in itself. It can be sacrificed... I mean it is synergic with this "heavy sacrifice" list I would say.

- Enchantement for creature CDA : which one ? My number 1 target for Pattern of Rebirth will always be Sun Titan, which generates a monstruous amount of CA. Eldrazi Conscription, ok this is too cute, serious people could get something relevant instead of this xD

- Lingering Souls: This is sooooooooooo good ! It sacrifices, go to kill Jace. I would love to play those MD again (probably for the Conscription and the Future sight... for normal people :p)
So un-casual stuff would be: -1 Rector, -1 Future Sight, -1 Conscription Eldrazi for +1 Top and +2 Lingering Souls

- About your post on another board (LF): Against Elves, don't you have Pyroclasm in sideboard ? But anyway combo has always been a pain in the ass of NicFit. That is all there is to it sadly. Elves and Belcher are quite fair I would say, but everything else takes too much slots, and your can't SB properly against both S&T and Storm. My 2 cents on this.

@vilnico:

I did not realize you were french (and probably reading LF), but that does not matter because I will probably post only here in the future. The interaction is just better.

Indeed I try to put Pyroclasm // Firespout or other kind of removals to improve my match-up against Goblin, Merfolk and Elves. When I tested against Elves, I was having none of those which was making the match-up completely one sided.

Concerning your explanations, they all make a lot of sense. The only point where I was maybe not clear is about the CDA. If the opponent kills your creature in response to the enchant creature... you lose two cards for one. This is where the CDA comes.

I would also like to try the splash W by curiosity but I don't see where are the advantages. I just think in terms of match-ups and I cannot see where it is better than a red splash for example.

Another small question, what about grave pact? It looks really good against the Show and Tell match-up & quite decent against creature based decks. Any thoughts?

TW

I took 85th (5-4) at SCG Baltimore, playing Nic Fit (BGW Rector, though a slightly cheaper version)

Creatures
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Academy Rector
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Grave Titan
1x Sun Titan
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
1x Deranged Hermit
1x Eternal Witness
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Starved Rusalka
1x Fierce Empath

Spells
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Diabolic Intent
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Enlightened Tutor

Land
4x Bayou
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Windswept Heath
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold

Sideboard
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Thoughtseize
2x Choke
2x Gaddock Teeg
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Extirpate
1x Krosan Grip


Round 1 vs Burn
Game 1 on the play: I mulled a no land hand and found an Explorer, Therapy, a fetch, a Bayou, and Phyrexian Arena. Things seemed all right, though I ended up hanging on to the Arena because I didn't want to help him out at all. I Decayed a Sulfuric Vortex, and then he showed me a Price of Progress for lethal when I was at 4 with Grave Titan on the table as a two-turn clock. His only non-land permanents were some Hellspark Elementals and the Sulfuric Vortex, and I saw a Barbarian Ring when I Therapied.

In: Faith's Fetters, Extirpate, Ooze
Out: Phyrexian Arena, Wickerbough Elder, Veteran Explorer

Game 2: I kept a poor hand (nerves?) with Sensei's Divining Top, lands, and a Therapy, played T1 Top, go. He played Goblin Guide. Oops. The Guide ramped my hand (thanks to Top) and I dropped an Explorer to block, but then he stopped attacking and drew straight burn spells into my all land / Pernicious Deed draws.
0-2, 0-1


Round 2 vs Burn
Game 1 on the draw: This guy was playing BR Burn with Confidants and Lavamancers. I don't remember what I kept, but I fetched first turn and then my life total jumped down by threes.

In: Faith's Fetters, Extirpate, Ooze, 3x Thoughtseize (2 is better than 3 or 4, right? At least, that's what I was thinking.)
Out: Phyrexian Arena, Wickerbough Elder, 4x Veteran Explorer (slowing the game and not helping him thin his deck seemed important; I clearly wasn't prepared for Burn matches)

Game 2: T1 Thoughtseize took a Goblin Guide and T2 Therapy took a pair of Sulfuric Vortexes, but he landed a Lavamancer and drew hot hot heat the rest of the time. I drew into my massive beater, Starved Rusalka, and pinged him down to 11 before GSZ found me Sigarda. I was at one life and he had an empty hand. He commented that Thragtusk would've been better here, and I told him to shut his rat-face (not really)--and then he flipped over the top card of his deck. Rift Bolt.
0-4, 0-2


Round 3 vs Goblins
Game 1 on the draw: He mulled to 3 (!!!) and led with T1 Mountain, go. I played an Explorer, he played a Lackey, they traded, he played a Ringleader, then a Piledriver which I Swordsed, then he overextended into a Deed and I killed him with Sun Titan (recurring Deed) and Yosei. No need to lock.

I didn't sideboard for this match-up; though I think Extirpate could be handy, I don't know what I'd want to take out.

Game 2: No mulligans this game, and he led with Lackey and a T2 Aether Vial, but didn't swing into my Veteran Explorer. I swung at him instead, which he took, and then played another Explorer. He played War Chief, which I kindly Swordsed, and then FINALLY he attacked me and let me ramp. I played a Deed, he played a Ringleader and a Matron, I played another Deed, he played another Matron and then a Ringleader and a Vial, I played Sun Titan to recur Deed and wipe his board, he scooped.
2-4, 1-2


Round 4 vs Burn
He was on the play and opened with T1 Mountain, suspend Rift Bolt. I tilted pretty bad after that and I'm not proud of it. I do remember that when I cast Therapy in game one he showed me his hand and then hid it again after I saw that I hadn't hit, and I didn't make him show it longer so I could write things down. That didn't help my tilt. Also not helping: I took Thragtusk out of the main and CoP: Red out of the board on Friday (more on this later).
2-6, 1-3


Round 5 vs BUG Control
Game 1 on the draw: I kept a hand with Top, Forest, three fetches, and Wickerbough Elder. We both fetched a couple of times before he found a Bob and swung with it, and I found a Veteran Explorer. He played a Top and didn't swing (this seemed common from my opponents; not wanting to help me ramp), I swung and played another Explorer, and then he played another Bob and I played the Elder. I hit him a few times, leaving one Explorer back to block, and then he resolved Jace and started Fatesealing me, and then he blew a Deed to clear my board, hoping for a Jace win, I believe. I saved my Top, and then proceeded to ignore Jace as I cast Grave Titan, Jace bounced it, Grave Titan (countered) and Recurring Nightmare (landed), and then finally Yosei, sacrificed to bring back Grave Daddy.

In: 2x Choke, Krosan Grip, Faith's Fetters
Out: 2x Veteran Explorer, 1x Cabal Therapy, 1x Swords to Plowshares

Game 2: This one was fun. We fetched around for a while, he landed Top, Perished my Scavenging Ooze, and then played a Deathrite Shaman. I Decayed the Shaman and then used Volrath's Stronghold to get my Ooze back. He Decayed it, I used the Stronghold again and started beating. I had Eternal Witness, Liliana, and Yosei in my hand at one point, and +1ed Liliana to pitch the Witness, just for kicks. After tapping him down, making him sacrifice two Bobs, playing a Choke, and beating with the Ooze for a few turns (I grew it a few times, too) he finally drew the Wasteland he needed to stop my Stronghold shenanigans. Then I topdecked a Grave Titan and he scooped. I wouldn't have pitched the Witness in a regular situation, but he was playing quite deliberately and I was nearly certain we would either go to time or I would win. It felt good to be in control.
4-6, 2-3


Round 6 vs No Show (as in, I got a bye)
4-6, 3-3 (sort of)

Round 7 vs Faerie Control (like Stompy, but playing Erayo instead of 4/4s)
Game 1 on the play: I kept Therapy, Explorer, Explorer, Deed, Bayou, Fetch, Fetch, and opened on fetch for Forest into Explorer. He played a basic Island and then Ponder. "Finally," I thought, "High Tide or Storm!" I attacked, played my second Explorer, then fetched for a basic Swamp to play Cabal Therapy. I don't remember why I was playing around Wasteland (and he commented on the fact that I was playing around Wasteland and said he would do the same (he was playing all Islands)). After I saw his hand of Erayo, Ninja of the Deep Hours, SoFaI, Spellstutter Sprite, and Repeal, I felt pretty happy. Then he countered my flashed back Therapy with the Sprite, Ninjutsu-ed in the Ninja, played a few Clouds of Faeries, and attacked me down to 3 before I found a Deed and wiped his board. Then I got a Yosei / Rusalka / Stronghold lock on him and he conceded at 10 life.

In: 2x Choke, 2x Gaddock Teeg, 1x Extirpate
Out: 4x Veteran Explorer, 1x Cabal Therapy

Game 2: I kept a VERY land-heavy hand because his deck seemed to rely on little weenies (thus giving me a chance to start slowly). I think after 3 losses I started feeling like I could have fun with the tournament. He countered an early Cabal Therapy with Spellstutter Sprite and started beating down; I played Starved Rusalka and started beating down, then played Choke. At some point I played Enlightened Tutor and he flashed in another Spellstutter Sprite to counter. We had one another at 10 (me) and 12 (him) when we went into turns and I played a Grave Titan. He scooped.
6-6, 4-3


Round 8 vs Maverick
Game 1 on the play: I blind-call Brainstorm on a T1 Therapy; he shows me GSZ, Noble, Savannah, Horizon Canopy, Wasteland, Stoneforge Mystic, Oblivion Ring. I got excited and shredded away the GSZ with another Therapy. I waited for him to build his board, and then I Deeded to keep him from attacking for 9 with an Elspeth'ed Knight. Then I drew three lands in a row, and then a Deed that I had to use immediately again. Then I landed Top and saw Sun Titan, Yosei, Rector. I had two Therapies in the yard and Stronghold in play, but not enough land to cast Yosei and put it on top in the same turn--so of course I chose to tap the Top to draw Yosei, and then of course I immediately sacrificed it to a Therapy (he had no cards in hand) so I could tap down all his stuff. I cannot explain that play. I lost to a flying Scavenging Ooze shortly thereafter.

In: Ooze, Maelstrom Pulse, Faith's Fetters
Out: 2x Veteran Explorer, 1x Cabal Therapy, Swords to Plowshares
No, I cannot explain siding these things out, either.

Game 2: Turn one Therapy saw Elspeth, Pridemage, KotR, Sylvan Library, Wasteland, and lands. I fetched a couple of times, and then drew straight lands for several turns before I took 9 from a flying Knight, drew another land, and then took 9 from a flying Knight. Sometimes them's the breaks. I had a Deed in hand, but couldn't play it and pop it for 3 without losing either a) a land to Wasteland or b) the Deed to Qasali Pridemage (by waiting to untap). Tough.
6-8, 4-4


Round 9 vs BG ???
Game 1 on the draw: He Thoughtseized me off of a Bayou first turn and took Pernicious Deed, then I Therapied him for Deathrite Shaman and whiffed, though I did see Duress, Disfigure, Jitte, and Hag Hedge-mage (?). I took Hedge-mage on the flashback, lost two lands to Hymn to Tourach, and then played Scavenging Ooze. He killed my Ooze with Abrupt Decay, I played Stronghold and got it back. He killed my Ooze with Disfigure, I used Stronghold and got it back. I played Grave Titan, and he used Maelstrom Pulse to clear the tokens and then made me sacrifice the Titan and Wastelanded my Stronghold. Two turns later I drew Eternal Witness, brought back the Titan, and he scooped.

I shuffled my sideboard into my deck and then removed it again.

Game 2: He Thoughtseized me again, taking Top and leaving me with five lands and Wickerbough Elder. I drew Cabal Therapy and named Hymn to Tourach, hitting two of them and leaving him with Ooze, Abrupt Decay, and Verdant Catacombs. He drew and played Deathrite Shaman and started pinging me down. I played Wickerbough Elder, he played Ooze, and we started trading blows. Finally I drew out of lands and into Top, played it and spun to find Sigarda, Grave Titan, and Swords. I tapped to draw Sigarda and play it. He sighed and pinged me down to 3 with the Shaman. Next turn I drew the Top, cast it, tapped it to draw Grave Titan, played Titan, and he scooped (he was down to one if I attacked with Sigarda).
8-8, 5-4 (sort of)


I am definitely swapping Thragtusk back in for Deranged Hermit. As quickly as Hermit ends games, Tusk is better in the toolbox (and can end games only a touch more slowly). Enlightened Tutor took the place of Skeletal Scrying, and while I only drew it twice I thought it was a worthy replacement--though I will probably drop it for a second Eternal Witness. Starved Rusalka is simply fantastic, and I'm glad I picked mine up last May before they got expensive (hah).

Regarding my sideboard: I was informed by a guy who regularly plays at Xanadu Games in the Baltimore area that the local-ish meta is a lot of High Tide and Storm combo. I was expecting a lot of that, plus a lot of UW Miracles. In round 7 a judge who came past our game said that there had been many High Tide, Miracles, and Storm mirrors, so I guess all of those players hit the draw bracket early and didn't get near me. Anyway, that's the reason I took out Thragtusk, CoP, and my extra Pulses, and put in the Thoughtseizes and Thalias. I was talking to Maverick777 after the tournament and he was telling me how much I need to get Moat and Nether Void--and I completely agree! If you would all kindly donate to the cause...

I was also admiring the Raking Canopy in his sideboard, and while the only flying beaters I saw were too large to care (Elspeth-jumped Knight/Ooze) or too small to really matter (faeries), I think I'm going to pick one up.

The people in the Rock forum have been talking about how bad Choke is right now, but it worked great for me against BUG and Faeries. My Carpets of Flowers are in the mail, probably to be tried alongside Choke in the right meta. T1 Carpet into T2 Choke seems pretty insane, though it's more likely T1 Carpet into T2 Force of Will ;-)

In closing, I love playing this deck.

Question:

Could I please have your opinion:
I will be playing scapewish this weekend at the Belgian Legacy cup. I am still considering some changes to the list (arianrhod reference scapewish)
Currently I am not playing abrubt Decay: does the list need it, is it usefull against deadrite Shaman? Or is it better to have a third Huntmaster and a Sakura?
I am playing an extra stomping ground instead of a possible Volraths stronghold. How good is stronghold?

I would appreciate some ideas so I can finalise my list.

I havent played Stronghold in ScapeWish or any other version for quite some time. Ive never found it to be really helpfull tbh. In ScapeWish i replaced it with a basic forest (mostly due to lacking a 2nd Stomping Ground)

Im still hoping HoneyT will post his GB list...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cire_dk

Question:

Could I please have your opinion:
I will be playing scapewish this weekend at the Belgian Legacy cup. I am still considering some changes to the list (arianrhod reference scapewish)
Currently I am not playing abrubt Decay: does the list need it, is it usefull against deadrite Shaman? Or is it better to have a third Huntmaster and a Sakura?
I am playing an extra stomping ground instead of a possible Volraths stronghold. How good is stronghold?

I would appreciate some ideas so I can finalise my list.

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@Cire_dk: I don't play scapewish, but here is my opinion.
- Abrupt Decay : Scapewish build is more like Aggro/Combo build, you do not need plays that do 1 for 1. Pernicious Deed does a way better job. And Arianrhod did not included in his last list from november.
- Deathrite Shaman : what would you want to remove it ? It only removes Cabal Therapy, if you do not flashback them immediatly. It chumpblocks a Huntmaster, so it stalls the game which is in your advantage.
- And anyway, if it is to include 1 Decay, when most list will pack 4 DRShaman, just forget it.
To be extreme, I would say that Lightning Bolt is way better in this build than Abrupt Decay as a 1-off.
- So to me it would rather be a Huntmaster, but if you feel you need more mana, go for a Sakura.
- Stronghold used to be a good stuff. But now there is DR Shaman, which will ruin its activation. And you do not play enough removal to handle all the 4DRS list that will run around. If you run off of creature you still have the combo to finish your opponent. So Stonghold is a bad idea to me.

Id say I win 20% of my games because of Volraths stronghold. Its useful most of the time if you just draw it naturally, but fetching it off prime titan wins the game against decks that have removal, but cant somehow exile prime titan before you untap phyrexian tower. Also, against UW who has a million cantrips, and 8 ways to basically exile prime, you can get the 2 towers, and then sac him to therapy before they get priority.

I talk about recurring prime titan, but legacy decks have a hard time beating a Huntmaster or thragtusk every turn too. Or ewti for bushiness.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TiMeWaLk

@vilnico:

I did not realize you were french (and probably reading LF), but that does not matter because I will probably post only here in the future. The interaction is just better.

Indeed I try to put Pyroclasm // Firespout or other kind of removals to improve my match-up against Goblin, Merfolk and Elves. When I tested against Elves, I was having none of those which was making the match-up completely one sided.

Concerning your explanations, they all make a lot of sense. The only point where I was maybe not clear is about the CDA. If the opponent kills your creature in response to the enchant creature... you lose two cards for one. This is where the CDA comes.

I would also like to try the splash W by curiosity but I don't see where are the advantages. I just think in terms of match-ups and I cannot see where it is better than a red splash for example.

Another small question, what about grave pact? It looks really good against the Show and Tell match-up & quite decent against creature based decks. Any thoughts?

TW

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Yeah I read LF, but they just ignore Nic Fit there. "It is not a real deck" as they like to say. "It does not play U, it plays Veteran Explorer. What else ?" xD

Against Elves I never really had any pbs. It is pretty 50/50 to me for a BGw list, thanks to StP and Deed. I will take here also the reason to play white:
- Swords to Plowshare to me is the first reason to play W, before RtR. Now there is Decay, but mostly there is DRS, which owns T1 Lackey. So it is more the couple DRS/Decay that made me cut a StP in my list, but just Decay alone is not a reason to get it over StP. Decay to me is just an additional Pulse, and not an expensive StP.
- Sun Titan !
- Then there is Lingering Souls, for the reason we spoke of.

Academy Rector, but this will get difficult to get around the DRS those days. This is only optional. It is not a real reason to play W. It is kinda like Birthing Pod, you can play it in Nic Fit, but you do not have to.
And then sideboard, with O'ring against S&T for example, or playable Gaddock.

Honestly, I have not played BGr yet (but currently building it), so I can not really tell the advantages/disadvantages. To me red is attractive because of Bonfire, Huntmaster, REB, and Dreadbore at some point.

Grave Pact:
- First, it is 4ccm, Slaughter Game is better against S&T for the same cost. But anyway too late.
- Then it is 1BBB kinda hard on colors :/
- But if you meant having it in Rector-build, I would say it is not really good, Humility is the only Enchantment that does a decent job against S&T. Honestly, my best option against S&T is to play Omniscience NicFit. They are just not allowed to play S&T without Omniscience, the risk that they help to assemble our combo is too big.
- Against creatures decks ? you mean Aggro in general ? I never wished I had such a stuff, or even a Moat to beat them. Deed just owns them all ^^

Enchantment CDA:
Ah what you say is right :D, but you can wait that your opponent removes your DRS before enchanting stuff ;)
Also as they are 1-off, they most likely get in there via Rector, so they do not know what is happening :p


@ Architect: Did I read you would go fetch 2 Phyrexian Tower on Primeval Titan effect ? Please don't do this in real life ^^

No, he meant Volrath's Stronghold + Phyrexian Tower, which is an engine that we've been calling The Two Towers, because we're all nerds.

Also, Rector has taken a HUGE hit because of the enormous prevalence of Deathrite Shaman. It's a million times worse than Scavenging Ooze ever was. I think that the list is still viable, because you still just destroy anything without Deathrite (or anyone with who doesn't know how Rector works). But in a competent meta that's filled with BUG and Junk, I wouldn't touch Rector right now. That really pains me to say, but them's the breaks.

If you want to go white in the current meta, I would advocate the more Junkish lists that have some number Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decay main. Just be aware that you're going to have board MUCH more aggressively for combo as a result, since you don't have Rector->Nether Void. It all depends on how much Deathrite Shaman is in your meta.

I would also advocate looking at the concept of a Populate version using Trostani and more walkers, which we briefly touched on some number of pages back. You can overload Terminus, BUG Control doesn't run sweepers maindeck, and neither does Junk. I don't know for sure if it's good enough or not, but it's probably more viable than Rector is currently.

ScapeWish is, obviously, still fine. Because Honey Badger don't give a fuck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cire_dk

Question:

Could I please have your opinion:
I will be playing scapewish this weekend at the Belgian Legacy cup. I am still considering some changes to the list (arianrhod reference scapewish)
Currently I am not playing abrubt Decay: does the list need it, is it usefull against deadrite Shaman? Or is it better to have a third Huntmaster and a Sakura?
I am playing an extra stomping ground instead of a possible Volraths stronghold. How good is stronghold?

I would appreciate some ideas so I can finalise my list.

---

I am a rector player but I know arianrhod* personally and I have played scapewish. You NEED to run abrupt decay liliana and dethrite Are huge problems that decay deals with so try that out because junk is everywhere!!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

No, he meant Volrath's Stronghold + Phyrexian Tower, which is an engine that we've been calling The Two Towers, because we're all nerds.

Also, Rector has taken a HUGE hit because of the enormous prevalence of Deathrite Shaman. It's a million times worse than Scavenging Ooze ever was. I think that the list is still viable, because you still just destroy anything without Deathrite (or anyone with who doesn't know how Rector works). But in a competent meta that's filled with BUG and Junk, I wouldn't touch Rector right now. That really pains me to say, but them's the breaks.

If you want to go white in the current meta, I would advocate the more Junkish lists that have some number Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decay main. Just be aware that you're going to have board MUCH more aggressively for combo as a result, since you don't have Rector->Nether Void. It all depends on how much Deathrite Shaman is in your meta.

I would also advocate looking at the concept of a Populate version using Trostani and more walkers, which we briefly touched on some number of pages back. You can overload Terminus, BUG Control doesn't run sweepers maindeck, and neither does Junk. I don't know for sure if it's good enough or not, but it's probably more viable than Rector is currently.

ScapeWish is, obviously, still fine. Because Honey Badger don't give a fuck.

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I don't know that liliana and shaman pose that much of a problem to rector ya shaman makes nightmare and rector sad but a well placed moat alongside big dudes pretty much wins you the game no matter what I played good players over the weekend including KOMAR who if you don't know who he is he is an exceptional player that pilots junk like no one else. I think it's better positioned than scapewish in the matchup but rector with its high threat density shouldn't have issues taking junk down.

I rather like the sideboard that Erick Whelpley and I came up with for his list at SCG Baltimore. I don't remember it off the top of my head, though, so hopefully he'll see this and posts it. It had a pair of Abrupt Decays in the sideboard, IIRC, to help out with Liliana of the Veil especially.

I'm also a big fan of extra copies of Slaughter Games (and Memoricide/Cranial for non-red versions) right now. For Steve's list for Balitmore I bumped him up to 4 total, in a 2/2 split. The card is just batshit good right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I rather like the sideboard that Erick Whelpley and I came up with for his list at SCG Baltimore. I don't remember it off the top of my head, though, so hopefully he'll see this and posts it. It had a pair of Abrupt Decays in the sideboard, IIRC, to help out with Liliana of the Veil especially.

I'm also a big fan of extra copies of Slaughter Games (and Memoricide/Cranial for non-red versions) right now. For Steve's list for Balitmore I bumped him up to 4 total, in a 2/2 split. The card is just batshit good right now.

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Went x-4 in Baltimore. List was amazing. Lost to sneak attack, junk, goblins, and rug. Board was the following:


3 slaughter games (best card in board)
3 red elemental blast
2 Abrupt decay (still need to find and out to junk and bug)
1 tsunami
1 innocent blood
1 virtue's ruin
1 Damniation
1 thoughtseize
1 scapewish
1 maelstrom pulse

Still am learning the deck

@ Arianrhod: back so soon? ^w^ Glad to see you haven't become a stranger yet ^_^

@ My BUG list: Do y'all think Prime Time is worth being a 61st card with only The Two Towers as notable searches? (i.e. no Treetop Villages)

Here are the results from my 2 last tournaments using Gifts Fit:


Creature (10)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan

Spells (27)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Innocent Blood
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
2 Gifts Ungien

2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed

1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (23)
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Island

Sideboard (15)
1 Karakas
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
4 Thoughtseize
4 Negate


R1: 1-1-0 vs. Maverick
I took G1 and died during time in G2 (failled to find a Deed). Very slow player and the rounds were apparently 10 minutes shorter than I am used to. No sideboard.

R2: 2-0 vs NO Bant
I won G1 and G2 with a devastating Deed. No Sideboard.

R3: 2-0 vs. Maverick
Close games against my friend piloting a list I made for him so my therapies are on point. No Sideboard.

R4: 2-0 vs. Aggro Loam
Won G1 on the back of my single wasteland and my opponent cannot handle the gift pile.
-4 Therapy, +2 Spellbomb, +2 Extirpate
I Extirpate LftL and cast a Grave Titan that my opponent cannot handle.

R5: 0-2 vs. UG Infect
My opponent offers to draw into top8 as he is currently in first place but I refuse because I need another win for top8.
I get to eat 2X Invigorate and my Decay fizzles to Vines of Vastwood.
-1 Garruk, -1 Ooze, -1 Thragtusk -1 Grave Titan, +4 Thoughtseize
I saw 2X Invigorate again and eventualy died to Inkmoth Nexus.

R6: 2-0 vs. Canadian Thresh (RUG)
G1 was a close game that I stabilized off the back of an Ooze followed by Thragtusk.
-2 Therapy, +2 Carpet of Flowers
I end up Thragtusk looping and my opponent concedes.

At this point I am fairly confidant I will make top8 since my only loss is to the only person with a perfect score in the room. I finished 9th with 2 players in top8 with the same score as me... Oh, I also got to do a deck tech so I will link it when it will be posted.

The next event is a local tournament with about 20-25 players (less than half of the previous one I think).

R1: 2-0 vs. Aggro Loam
My opponent suffers several mulligans both games and I end up wiping his board and laying mine.
-4 Therapy, +2 Spellbomb, +2 Extirpate

R2: 2-1 vs. ZeRO (Zenith Rebirth Order combo)
I get combo'd on T3 and we go to G2.
-1 Garruk, -1 Jace, -1 Grave Titan, -1 Thrun, -1 LftL, -1 Wasteland, -2 Explorer, -2 Gifts, +4 Thoughtseize, +4 Negate, +2 Spellbomb
G2 and G3 are very long but discard + GY hate + backup Negate keeps my opponent on lockdown.

R3: 0-2 vs. OmniShow
Show n Tell on T2 for Gisselbrand and Grave Titan. Innocent Blood gets FoW, Grissel blocks and my opponent has 20ish cards in hand. I get Omni'd next turn.
-1 Garruk, -1 Pulse, -1 Decay, -1 Volrath, -1 Ooze, -1 Thrun, -1 Thragtusk, -4 Deed, +4 Thoughtseize, +4 Negate, +2 Extirpate, +1 Karakas
I draw rather poorly and take a Throught the Breach + Emrakul to the face. I almost recovered but my LftL was countered twice then my opponent went off again.

R4: 2-1 vs. UBr TorporNaught
I took G1 after drawing 3 Deeds in a row. No Sideboard.
Lost G2 to Dreadnought with counter backup.
G3 was tight but my opponent conceded to Garruk + Lily.

During my matches against ZeRO my opponent opened with Probe + Therapy twice and I liked it a lot. I am thinking about including 2-4 Probes and see how it goes.

I played BUG Control and BG Fun Stuff at the Open, both with Deathrite Shaman, and it isn't a problem for Rector as long as you have Phyrexian Tower or Starved Rusalka. It's all about timing--if you're keeping them from gaining two life or making you lose two just by keeping one land untapped (Tower / Forest), that seems fine to me. When they pull their trigger, you pull yours. No problem. And it's definitely NOT worse than fighting Ooze because they have to tap it. They don't get another chance. Rector is fine. Recurring Nightmare, on the other hand, should probably be sided out against those graveyard haters.

It helps that ours is a rogue-ish deck (so to speak), because people don't know what anyone is running. There's no perfectly stock list, and thanks to Sam making waves, half the people I played thought I was going to start dropping Valakuts. Hilarious.

I tried out a list a few weeks ago that shifted some of the big creatures and Recurring Nightmare out of the Rector build and replaced them with Doubling Season and some big Planeswalkers (Vraska, Karn, Elspeth KE) alongside Liliana. Going ult on Elspeth and Lily the turn they come into play is phenomenal, Vraska can be a 5-mana answer-me-now-or-die, and Karn is Karn. Eladamri's Call and Diabolic Intent were key players. Overall I think it may be too cute, but it was fun to test--and again, nobody knew what was coming.

Here's the list, which won a GPT for Denver. Credit to HoneyT.

61 Cards

23 Land
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Swamp
2 Treetop Village
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

14 Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Primeval Titan
1 Grave Titan

24 Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Maelstrom Pulse

15 Sideboard
3 Extirpate
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Damnation
1 Golgari Charm
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Also, Rector has taken a HUGE hit because of the enormous prevalence of Deathrite Shaman. It's a million times worse than Scavenging Ooze ever was. I think that the list is still viable, because you still just destroy anything without Deathrite (or anyone with who doesn't know how Rector works). But in a competent meta that's filled with BUG and Junk, I wouldn't touch Rector right now. That really pains me to say, but them's the breaks.

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This is the big reason I've spent the last few weeks playing a DGA-ish deck w/ a Bayou splashed to support the Shaman. Of course in my meta I'm also the guy who is running Shaman, so I guess I don't have to change, but at this point I don't think I can run Rector in Denver and thus I gotta get in some rounds with a new deck before then.

@Arianrhod: HAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAA, you made my day xD

@Yoric: I promise you, if I have a DRS on board, and you have a Rector on board, I will NEVER let you resolve the trigger. No matter what. +2/-2 life is nothing compared to a boarded Deed or Future Sight.
Also I do not think that it is worse than Ooze, which anyway people use gradually. Having DRS activated once in a turn does the same thing to me. No the thing that makes it worse is that it is not printed in a "limited" way as Ooze was, so it makes it available for everyone. That is the real pain in the ass.
By the way I like the PW thing :D
Doubling Season might be overplay, but having everyone on board is kinda funky to me xD
I remember when I was playing Omniscience, it happened to me a few times to Omniscience into Garruk and Sorin, and win just on that (basically it wins if Garruk makes 2 turns, flips and get Emrakul anyway ^^). Casting them together also wins ^^.

@TW: Forgot to say, Vraska is a cheap Karn ! I'd prefer way more to have Karn instead of the Medusa... but 7 that's a lot... But maybe with DRS it might be playable now, have to think about that :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by vilnico

@Arianrhod: HAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAA, you made my day xD

@Yoric: I promise you, if I have a DRS on board, and you have a Rector on board, I will NEVER let you resolve the trigger. No matter what. +2/-2 life is nothing compared to a boarded Deed or Future Sight.
Also I do not think that it is worse than Ooze, which anyway people use gradually. Having DRS activated once in a turn does the same thing to me. No the thing that makes it worse is that it is not printed in a "limited" way as Ooze was, so it makes it available for everyone. That is the real pain in the ass.
By the way I like the PW thing :D
Doubling Season might be overplay, but having everyone on board is kinda funky to me xD
I remember when I was playing Omniscience, it happened to me a few times to Omniscience into Garruk and Sorin, and win just on that (basically it wins if Garruk makes 2 turns, flips and get Emrakul anyway ^^). Casting them together also wins ^^.

@TW: Forgot to say, Vraska is a cheap Karn ! I'd prefer way more to have Karn instead of the Medusa... but 7 that's a lot... But maybe with DRS it might be playable now, have to think about that :D

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Exactly this. The sheer availability and commonplace use of Deathrite is the problem. Think about Scavenging Ooze. At its ABSOLUTE HEIGHT, Maverick was using it as a 3-of. One deck, 3 copies. Currently, we have BUG and Junk at least that are both 4-of Deathrite decks, to say nothing of stuff like Slik pointed out, that falls between the cracks (Deadguy, Zombies, whatever). I'd rather face the Maverick deck with 1x Ooze than the Junk deck with 4x Deathrite, to hell with Deathrite tapping or not.

The planeswalker idea sounds hysterical. I have no idea if it's actually good or not -- but it might be better than you think it is. Planeswalkers play very, very nicely with Pernicious Deed -- which is half the reason by itself why Nic Fit has so much trouble with opposing 'walkers. If we were using them instead of our opponents, that could turn powerful very quickly. It's worth further exploration IMO.

And I said I was scaling back, not quitting -- I'm still here, ready and willing to offer my thoughts. I'm just not posting 80 times a day like I was, nor going to every event within driving distance. On that note: I will be at Mythic this Saturday, and I will be doing something that I've long mentioned, but never actually attempted. It's pretty nutty. I'm not going to spoil the fun yet, but I'm pretty sure that the locals will appreciate it =)