Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
I'm pretty sure I linked a list with 3 Burning Wish that top32'd a GP. I have no idea how to show you any results, nor am I going to put effort in digging them up. One of the last tournaments I played was the Legacy Championship in Rimini of ~100 people that I split the top 4 in. You can go ahead and try to confirm that if you care so much about tournament results.
That's one event that was years ago. I can link you to several events in the last six months where I've top 8'd with my list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
How kind of you to reply in such a nice and sarcastic way, while completely avoiding that I make a valid point.
I've admitted in the past that I was wrong about Probe, yet you dwell. I'm not wrong about Burning Wish, what exactly is left to say?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
No. We looked at Probe when we started making storm lists again right after MM got banned. Before the banning, we weren't running storm because several forms of Tempo Thresh were way better. We tested Probe and found it was stupidly good.
Meaning that ANT players couldn't have been already doing this before you or at the same time?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
But besides, even if people playing ANT were running the card, why does that make a difference? I just explained (which you completely ignored) that Probe is a different card in TES. In your line of reasoning, no one should even get any credit for anything related to storm combo in Legacy, because I'm sure people in vintage had already found you can build Tendrils combo before Legacy existed.
Even if the card functions somewhat differently, which it barely does (let's be honest), it's not enough to call it an innovation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
Not the point of the argument, but I'll respond like you've been responding to me:
Sure, like Probe was garbage for a long time.
I'm glad we agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
You ignore pretty much everything I said. Why do you argue with me if you're just going to pick out parts of my post that you think you have a good response against?
Because you're so cute when you're frustrated.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
That's one event that was years ago. I can link you to several events in the last six months where I've top 8'd with my list.
I think I pointed out that I don't give a fuck about results enough now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
I've admitted in the past that I was wrong about Probe, yet you dwell. I'm not wrong about Burning Wish, what exactly is left to say?
I'm not wrong on Burning Wish either. What now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Meaning that ANT players couldn't have been already doing this before you or at the same time?
Your point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Even if the card functions somewhat differently, which it barely does (let's be honest), it's not enough to call it an innovation.
This makes me think you don't understand why Probe is so good in TES.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
I'm glad we agree.
You actually think that Probe was garbage during all that time you weren't running it? I'm dying to know what makes you say that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Because you're so cute when you're frustrated.
http://cdn.zmescience.com/wp-content...animals-02.jpg
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
I think I pointed out that I don't give a fuck about results enough now.
Which is why it's hard to take your suggestions seriously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
I'm not wrong on Burning Wish either. What now?
We wait.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
Your point?
That Gitaxian Probe wasn't your innovation...and we're back to square one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
This makes me think you don't understand why Probe is so good in TES.
I'm only running it because the cool kids over in Europe think it's really good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
You actually think that Probe was garbage during all that time you weren't running it? I'm dying to know what makes you say that.
Yeah, completely. I mean... it only draws a card.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Okay then. This won't go anywhere if you just keep replying with those brilliant sarcastic remarks. You really know how to make your point with them. (see wot I did ther)
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
That's why I included the telepathy!
te·lep·a·thy
n.
Communication through means other than the senses, as by the exercise of an occult power.
They use that as a form of communication to resolve plays and such, still need to draw cards.
Joking aside, if you were to run a TES list today in the current Legacy (not in the 2011 GP cus I see Orim's Chants), what 75 would you run? It seems like the debate is on -1 Burning Wish +1 Land (fetch?). Also looks like the list from the GP uses a standard 7 "protection" spells, 4 Duress/3 "Silence" vs. Cook's 2 Duress/4 Silence/1 Cabal Therapy.
I am curious to see a list that you would run (arguing aside). End of the day, I will be playing Storm at a large event soon and I'm still learning it and would love to try a different style to see how it plays. I know they are VERY similar, and the changes are only a handful of cards, but I think things like removing a Burning Wish would change some of the lines a little, and I am curious to see how it gold fishes.
I like having extra Wishes when you have a Chrome Mox. I don't like them when I AN and hit 3 of them in a row with no way to cast them. I like having extra fetch lands when I have a heavy draw of cantrips where I can then keep one card off a Ponder draw and then shuffle the other 2 away.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
One Therapy makes no sense. I really don't get it.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HammafistRoob
One Therapy makes no sense. I really don't get it.
It can take non spells out of their hand to remove hatebears game 1 against creature hate bear decks. I have used it after Probe to hit creatures that would have pressured me, so by removing 2 creatures I was able to take more time to set up a protected combo.
Duress is sad against Maverick and such, Therapy is a live card still. Also, it's real handy with the flashback after you EtW. You can Therapy to see the hate they have if you were to pass the turn (with a slew of Goblins), and then sac one to flash it back and hit the problem spell so your Goblins get there.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oSeabass
It can take non spells out of their hand to remove hatebears game 1 against creature hate bear decks. I have used it after Probe to hit creatures that would have pressured me, so by removing 2 creatures I was able to take more time to set up a protected combo.
Duress is sad against Maverick and such, Therapy is a live card still. Also, it's real handy with the flashback after you EtW. You can Therapy to see the hate they have if you were to pass the turn (with a slew of Goblins), and then sac one to flash it back and hit the problem spell so your Goblins get there.
Same that sac goblin option comes up soooo often for me. It's great.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oSeabass
It can take non spells out of their hand to remove hatebears game 1 against creature hate bear decks. I have used it after Probe to hit creatures that would have pressured me, so by removing 2 creatures I was able to take more time to set up a protected combo.
Duress is sad against Maverick and such, Therapy is a live card still. Also, it's real handy with the flashback after you EtW. You can Therapy to see the hate they have if you were to pass the turn (with a slew of Goblins), and then sac one to flash it back and hit the problem spell so your Goblins get there.
I'm not saying that it's a dead card or anything, it obviously has uses. I just think it's straight up worse than another Duress in the maindeck. Cabal Therapy is great and all, it's my favorite card actually, but I think Duress is better here.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
You guys miss switching Duress for Therapy in postboard games against hatebears ... With 3 Duress there would bv a slot left open ... That's most of it
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Played 6 games last night against high tide with 3 main flusterstorm, 4 force, and fluster in board, mainly to get my friend a feeling of the matchup and more practice with High tide. No boarding was done for the sake of simplicity, that comes tonight.
Game 1 on the play: I therapy away protection on turn 3 after probing to ensure I might be safe. I don't have the mana to go IT->BW->Tendrils so I have to go IT->EtW for 20 with him at 19. I flashback therapy to rip his hand and kill him on the swing.
1-0
Game 2 on the draw: He plays a turn 1 top so I pretty much have to find silence for the inevitable force/fluster he is floating. A probe reveals he has 3x high tide and a cunning wish in hand though, so therapy baits the force floating (might have been a misplay on his part here, but I had found the silence too). Therapy + EtW + therapy gets there turn 3.
2-0
Game 3 on the play: I can't get a rainbow land into play so I play a petal and LED so I can cast the silence in my hand pre and post timespiral. Petal gets echoing truth'd in my endstep and I fail to hit brainstorm or silence after the first Spiral and lose.
2-1
Game 4 on the draw: I cast silence turn 3 with a second available should he stop me here and try to untap and win. He brainstorms in response and lets it resolve. Thanks to the brainstorm, I have a lethal amount of storm with tutor chain into tendrils.
3-1
Game 5 on the play: I go for the old petal, 2 dark ritual, chrome mox imprint BS, LED, IT, get ad nausem without playing a land turn 1. I grape shot him here since the reveal is really nice and he didn't have the force.
4-1
If your hand is BS, Mox, 2 Dark Rit, IT, LED, Petal... do you go for it or do you cast brainstorm first? I was inclined to go for it since I wanted to teach him to respect the turn 1 unprotected, but certainly casting brainstorm first is correct? Especially since it still has a backup plan of dumping goblins with that exact hand minus brainstorm.
Game 6 on the draw: Probe reveals 2 forces, one of which is spent on the cabal therapy trying to take both. He also reveals a flusterstorm and E truth. I empty for 6 goblins with mana floating to avoid flusterstorm and he e truths the goblins in response to the first therapy.I lay out as much mana as I can and pass. Two turns later he casts time spiral. I brainstorm then cast ad nauseum in response to his library manipulation spell of merchant scroll, which finds me 16 cards including the silence. I cast silence, scroll finds flusterstorm. I untap and duress it out and tendrils him with my hand of too many cards.
5-1
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Bahamuth cannot produce results to show the three Wish list is fine, simply because hardly anybody ever plays it. Everybody just lazily copies Bryants list. Rightly so, because it's well tuned and the primer is great, so it's easier that way. The Team Nijmegen guys don't play that many tournaments anymore, so for them it's hard to produce the numbers all by themselves. And my efforts are hardly going to help since I'm a terrible player. A good deck builder, but a bad player.
Last time I was at a tourney, some guys from Nijmegen were there as well, and they were trying a list with 12 lands, and all they were doing was complaining that 12 lands wasn't enough. The tournament before that, one of them went top-4 or so with a TES'ish list with even 14 lands (-1 Mox, -1 Wish, 5 fetch). What works for you is highly dependant on your playing style. If you love the quick gamble, 12 lands and 4 Wishes will work for you. If you are in fact more of an ANT player who just feels ANT lists are bad right now, you will profit more from a slightly more conservative TES list with more land.
PS. Not that I should have to do this, but I'll second the claim that Abel Planting is indeed a part of Team Nijmegen and a friend of Bahamuth. I'll even add that the guys from Team Nijmegen are all VERY strong combo players (except for BWM and maybe MVK-they just play for fun). They have been tuning TES, ANT and Doomsday lists forever, and after the banning of Mystical they even came up with their own hybrid list we came to call TNT (Team Nijmegen Tendrils). I take things Bryant says just as seriously as things they say.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Hm, are there other alternatives to Tropical Island? I feel like not being able to cast rituals is worse than not casting cantrips, so maybe Bayou?
Also, why does it seem to me that I often stare at PiF wishing it were IGG? I rarely hit enough rituals to make PiF feasible, whereas I often have 2 LED after tutoring for a 2nd.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
akatsuki
Hm, are there other alternatives to Tropical Island? I feel like not being able to cast rituals is worse than not casting cantrips, so maybe Bayou?
Also, why does it seem to me that I often stare at PiF wishing it were IGG? I rarely hit enough rituals to make PiF feasible, whereas I often have 2 LED after tutoring for a 2nd.
That's kinda how I feel, but I think in the long run I'd rather have PiF than IGG since IGG tends to be a hedge against aggressive decks we should beat anyway where PiF helps us against extended blue matchups.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
akatsuki
Hm, are there other alternatives to Tropical Island? I feel like not being able to cast rituals is worse than not casting cantrips, so maybe Bayou?
Also, why does it seem to me that I often stare at PiF wishing it were IGG? I rarely hit enough rituals to make PiF feasible, whereas I often have 2 LED after tutoring for a 2nd.
IGG is crap against DRS or blue counterspells while requiring 2 LED and access to 2 Tutors/Wishes (as Tutor->Wish). There is a much higher chance of having a couple of Rites/Rituals/Probes/etc.in the lategame accessible (graveyard) than unmolested generating enough mana for the IGG loop with Infernal -> Wish -> IGG (+2 mana float = 10 Mana)
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
akatsuki
Hm, are there other alternatives to Tropical Island? I feel like not being able to cast rituals is worse than not casting cantrips, so maybe Bayou?
That's one way to look at it. The other is that in the relevant matchups (IE where you board in Swarms), casting cantrips can be very important. Additionally, when you board in the land, you don't board out other land, so it's just an addition. If the original land base is sufficient, it shouldn't matter. At least, that's a bit like Bryant put it, and he's probably right.
You could test the Bayou, or better, test with a card backward in the sleeve, and every time you want it to be Tropical, write it down and act like it's a Bayou, and the other way around. See what happens (next to beind frustrated all the time :tongue:).
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Oh yeah, was judging the legacy side event at GP Brisbane last night, TES took the event down winning an english moat. Was pretty sick.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Basaka
Oh yeah, was judging the legacy side event at GP Brisbane last night, TES took the event down winning an english moat. Was pretty sick.
Cool, what did the rest of the meta look like?
