[Primer/Deck] Pox

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

I think Warping Wail would be better as you can top deck it and it's modes are still usable. Imp's sounds good early game, but when top decked and you want your Liliana ticking up, you'd end up losing it. One of the reasons I don't keep reactive instants in the sideboard is that I have to hit top deck mode asap and that ends up ruining defensive counter-style plans/cards.

On the other hand, Abrupt Decay aiming at Liliana's chest being misdirected by a black spell is freaking epic sauce...

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It's certainly better early, but I think you could argue that most sideboard cards are at their best within the first few turns. I don't think it's so bad to have to discard it to Liliana because that also means you have a Liliana on the board. It's by no means a perfect card, but it provides a lot of utility to a deck that has very limited options due to being mono color. Warping Wail is definitely the more versatile card, but I feel like it's also weaker in certain matchups because it can only be a one for one.

I would like to comment that I have been very impressed with warping wail when I tried it. It shored up a great deal of the early to mid game issues I was having in one concise package. I don't see it being more than a 2-of most of the time, but it's definitely worth a look.

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Originally Posted by Chiptoon

It's certainly better early, but I think you could argue that most sideboard cards are at their best within the first few turns. I don't think it's so bad to have to discard it to Liliana because that also means you have a Liliana on the board. It's by no means a perfect card, but it provides a lot of utility to a deck that has very limited options due to being mono color. Warping Wail is definitely the more versatile card, but I feel like it's also weaker in certain matchups because it can only be a one for one.

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If I have two mana up I'm jamming Sinkhole, Hymn to Tourach, or Smallpox. I'm not holding my mana up for some corner case "gotcha" moments. If you are leaving mana untapped consistently I can't imagine you are winning consistently.

Warping Wail is a one for one, but Imp's Mischief is only a two for one in certain instances and completely irrelevant in others.

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Originally Posted by sppabin

If I have two mana up I'm jamming Sinkhole, Hymn to Tourach, or Smallpox. I'm not holding my mana up for some corner case "gotcha" moments. If you are leaving mana untapped consistently I can't imagine you are winning consistently.

Warping Wail is a one for one, but Imp's Mischief is only a two for one in certain instances and completely irrelevant in others.

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That's the reason I've dropped Cursed Scroll to 1 and altogether ditched Mishra's Factories in my current build. I ultimately want to punch you without costing me any mana so I can cast spells AND whack your face. The only real con I see is that you can counter regular threats, but not man-lands. All my instants are 'free' spells as free spells are too good.

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Originally Posted by sppabin

If I have two mana up I'm jamming Sinkhole, Hymn to Tourach, or Smallpox. I'm not holding my mana up for some corner case "gotcha" moments. If you are leaving mana untapped consistently I can't imagine you are winning consistently.

Warping Wail is a one for one, but Imp's Mischief is only a two for one in certain instances and completely irrelevant in others.

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I think you're misunderstanding me a bit. I don't think you should just hold up the card for a chance to use it. If it's in your opening hand against Shardless and they suspend Vision turn one then you hold it up for turn four. Otherwise you just go about the normal Pox plan. If you end up discarding it to Lilly or Smallpox, that's totally fine and Sinkhole / Dark Ritual can often share that very same fate in games. The point of the card is to provide unexpected value in a variety of matchups where you might have some dead cards to board out. There are a lot of turns in the mid to late game where I just draw-pass because Urborg, Dark Ritual, or Innocent Blood do nothing. It's not always going to work out and that's okay because not many sideboard cards are perfect.

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Originally Posted by Chiptoon

I think you're misunderstanding me a bit. I don't think you should just hold up the card for a chance to use it. If it's in your opening hand against Shardless and they suspend Vision turn one then you hold it up for turn four. Otherwise you just go about the normal Pox plan. If you end up discarding it to Lilly or Smallpox, that's totally fine and Sinkhole / Dark Ritual can often share that very same fate in games. The point of the card is to provide unexpected value in a variety of matchups where you might have some dead cards to board out. There are a lot of turns in the mid to late game where I just draw-pass because Urborg, Dark Ritual, or Innocent Blood do nothing. It's not always going to work out and that's okay because not many sideboard cards are perfect.

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That is my main problem with Imp's Mischief. It does not fit into the pre-board game plan and your post-board game plan shouldn't take in to account corner cases. It needs to be an overall plan with each card working towards that, resource denial is the game plan and post board the resource denial should be more geared towards what is most effective. Against Storm you want to have hand/land/graveyard denial. Against Shardless you need to decide what your build is most effective at going after (I have found mana denial is my best way to beat Shardless, admittedly it is a tedious match).

Maybe a card like Imp's Mischief is just the ticket, but playing 1 in the board is just odd when you have zero library manipulation. You play redundancy to provide consistency. If you are playing singletons I can't imagine them not having similar counterparts, think playing Surgical Extraction & Nihil Spellbomb or Toxic Deluge & Engineered Plague.

If Imp's Mischief is winning you games that's great, I just can't see it being relevant outside of "gotcha" moments. It's like someone telling me to play Gilded Drake in my U/B Pox deck, sure there are times I get to trounce Show & Tell or Dark Depths with it. But is that really my game plan?

Shadow of Doubt if you're aiming at resource denial. Fetches being the big one. Analogous to Sinkhole.

It is basically av time walk.

I think the "Fun-ofs" are great! I have a couple of slots available in my list, and I often play some "gotcha" singletons in there. I rotate them around just to keep people on their toes. I'm currently using the slots for a second Toxic Deluge, a Collective Brutality and an Inquisition of Kozilek - going with the redundancy plan. I've used Shadow of Doubt, Surgical Extraction, and Imp's Mischief before. I really like Shadow of Doubt. I've tagged Stoneforge Mystics, Intuitions, Green Sun's Zeniths, Gambles, and of course a billion fetches. My White Whale is getting an Imperial Recruiter :) I think they all have their uses, and choosing one or 2 slot based on what you think you might face or what you are worried about is just fine. Chances are it'll just be pitched to a Lili anyways.... I'm currently anxious about losing to Jace the Mindsculptor, so I'm considering a pair of To The Slaughters in those spots.

I am thinking of running 3-4 collective brutality in main deck. I tried them once before but may have been too focused on the card advantage aspect. Now the idea is to have a flexible card in place of inquisition and innocents. They cost more regrettably but this make it possible to cast them through chalice.

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Originally Posted by ntropy

I think the "Fun-ofs" are great! I have a couple of slots available in my list, and I often play some "gotcha" singletons in there. I rotate them around just to keep people on their toes. I'm currently using the slots for a second Toxic Deluge, a Collective Brutality and an Inquisition of Kozilek - going with the redundancy plan. I've used Shadow of Doubt, Surgical Extraction, and Imp's Mischief before. I really like Shadow of Doubt. I've tagged Stoneforge Mystics, Intuitions, Green Sun's Zeniths, Gambles, and of course a billion fetches. My White Whale is getting an Imperial Recruiter :) I think they all have their uses, and choosing one or 2 slot based on what you think you might face or what you are worried about is just fine. Chances are it'll just be pitched to a Lili anyways.... I'm currently anxious about losing to Jace the Mindsculptor, so I'm considering a pair of To The Slaughters in those spots.

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I'd rather target using Hero's Downfall. When I see the Delirium, I can't hit it cause the only card types I want in my yard are sorceries, instants, and lands. That and targeted removal late game is just better than sacrifice effects. But in a splash color Pox deck, it'd be easier to cast.

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

I'd rather target using Hero's Downfall. When I see the Delirium, I can't hit it cause the only card types I want in my yard are sorceries, instants, and lands. That and targeted removal late game is just better than sacrifice effects. But in a splash color Pox deck, it'd be easier to cast.

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Yeah, I thought about this. I think between Cursed Scrolls, Ratchet Bombs and Liliana of the Veils I'll have delerium through incidental discard, But Ruinous Path and Hero's Downfall are on my radar as well.

I also think that a resolved Jace, The Mind Sculptor vs. me usually comes at the cost of everything else, so even without delerium, I think To The Slaughter will be effective. The control deck I lost to recently boards out Deathrite Shamans against me, so it's just clearing the hand/board of Snapcaster Mages and Vendilion Cliques. If they have the mana to Kolaghan's Command back a Snapcaster after resolving a Jace, I think I'm losing anyways.

I guess I better get some testing done!

I think i'd start at Hero's Downfall also, since it also lets you get at a gurmag angler/tarmogoyf through incidental unflipped delvers/DRS/Pyromancer tokens, kill the mentor through the monks, and pick whether you think the Liliana or the Jace is going to be easier to manage (hint, you usually kill the jace) but i can see the arguments for killing TNN and not triggering Leovold or Mother while occasionally being a 2for1.

The next set will have a mechanic for casting spells from the graveyard, 'aftetmath'. The first card is mono-white which make me hope for something useful in black.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

The next set will have a mechanic for casting spells from the graveyard, 'aftetmath'. The first card is mono-white which make me hope for something useful in black.

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Silly Wizards, did they already forget about "Flashback"? :eyebrow:

They remember it allright, now they want to combine it with split cards.

Mono-black needs a mono-color split card. I'm reminded of Boom/Bust in red. Even more interesting would be if they combined casting costs that are alternatives. Like Contagion / Spinning Darkness would be godlike.

Duress / Sinkhole or Duress / Hymn would be epic as well, though for poxing purposes, the strongest pairing would probably a hymn / edict effect card.

So this aftermath allows you to flashblack a split card? Can they be fused?

The template looks to be a split card, one half cast from hand, the other half cast from graveyard and then exiled. So a flashback card that casts a different card when cast from the graveyard. You wouldn't "fuse" them, but if you had the mana, you would cast side A, it resolves and goes to your graveyard, then you cast side B from the graveyard and then it's exiled.

My friend plays a BG Depths deck that also has Goyf, Confidant, and Deathrite in addition to the normal combo pieces. Is Diabolic Edict really my best option for dealing with this? I board in Needle and extraction cards, but it's also a Living Wish deck so they aren't the best.

Abyss can deal with everything but the Lage token, as can Deluge, which will then let your edicts deal with the 20/20, and ensnaring bridge can also be a reasonable way to keep the goyf and 20/20 from killing you while you pick off bob and DRS with your smaller spells (scroll and/or last hope and/or disfigure style spells)
I also generally aim for whatever wish they're playing with one of the first surgical effects, and I almost always board in Needle against DRS decks as long as they have at least one other quasi-reasonable name (stage/chandra ToD/Jace TMS/Port) regardless, as Deathrite is easily one of the most potent cards against the basic long game plan of pox with the ability to mitigate our attacking their mana and/or kill us in a surprisingly brisk manner after a single goyf hit.