Scavenging Ooze is our "stumbling" point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I would not run any Nic Fit list without that little f. bastard.
The amount of green mana, we have access to, makes him a beast.
Play Ooze, bang the Cheerleader...
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Scavenging Ooze is our "stumbling" point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I would not run any Nic Fit list without that little f. bastard.
The amount of green mana, we have access to, makes him a beast.
Play Ooze, bang the Cheerleader...
Heroes reference...top notch. FIFTY POINTS, GRYFFINDOR!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Went 3-0 at the local tonight with the colorless version. More detailed thoughts to come, but I will note one thing: the deck has inevitability. Games can stall out, grind out, whatever -- but as long as you're still alive, you -will- win. You will eventually Zenith for 6, and whenever Primeval Titan hits play, you suspend 1: win the game.
I want to tinker with a couple of ideas before getting into too many specifics that I don't really have the time to actually go over right now, but I'm very satisfied with the initial results and the feel for how the deck played in general. I think that there is potential for a Scapewish-level consistent deck here.
Of special note: Glimmerposts are -insane-. I ended g3 vs RUG Delver at 34 life. While RUG is generally an easy enough matchup overall for any variety of Nic Fit, I feel that in a similar speed of game vs Grixis Delver I would've still been somewhere around 18-22 after lifegain, which seems pretty solid.
Rhinos > Goyf. Deed helped a lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
As far as the MUD match, I beat him 2-0 at another IQ two weeks ago. Blind naming metalworker and hitting two helps a lot. From the ashes was better.
I'm still torn on K. Command and Pulse. I wouldn't mind another threat....Olivia seems.....eh.
Also.....who other than Ari is going to the Legacy open in Philly......
I really wanna go.
Give us that list, dammit :laugh:! I'm so curious!Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
On a side note: I've finally found a second Phyrexian Tower. It's on its way to me as we speak.
Also, I was pondering about adding Gitaxian Probes to my MB. Mostly b/c it's good friends with Cabal Therapy and I like knowing what my opponent is up to. The added bonus of a virtual 56-ish card deck being slightly more consistent than a 60 card deck is nice. It would turn my current list into this:
Main (60):
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Painful Truths
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
SB (15):
3 Duress
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace
So basically it'd be out with the >= 6 CMC package (Karador, Tasigur and Dromoka) and Empath and in with the 4 Gitaxian Probes. Even though they're some of my pet cards (or darkest fetishes) they are probably the cards needed least, leaving an as fast as possible core with Sigarda as top of the curve.
I have a tournament coming up februari 6th but won't be testing it there, I have a pre-release Dromoka coming in and want it to see some actual play first. I believe that apart from expedition fetchlands (which I just refuse to get, they're both too ugly and expensive) and fugly judge gift Pernicious Deeds I've got all the pre-release/promo/foil alternate art versions I can have in this deck.
I'm actually not 100% in on this yet. I'm leaning towards yes, but I have some problems (both deck-tuning and Real Life [bleh]) to figure out before I can actually say that I'm going.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
@Echelon: I'll be posting it tomorrow with some thoughts and edits, as per my usual modus operandi. If you're desperate, the list I ran is basically the same time I posted about it in here....couple tweaks, but nothing major.
Congrats on your finish :-) Looking forward for report. I'm very interesting what was your final thoughts about hybrid. I agreed that Glimmerpost lifegain is a beast not only vs RUG but also vs most decks which win via combat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Having done a bit of reshuffling, I'm now on this:
Creatures (11):
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
Noncreature Spells (26)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painful Truths
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Scapeshift
2 Slaughter Games
1 Diabolic Intent
Lands (24):
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
3 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Stomping Ground
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
Sideboard (15):
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Slaughter Games
1 Scapeshift
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Krosan Grip
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Crumble to Ash (or 3rd Pithing Needle / 3rd Surgical Extraction)
So many black cards, so few black sources. Seriously, it's scary low.
I understand why, but it's still somewhat disturbing. At least cut the Arbor for a fourth fetchland. Arbor is a good card but colourscrew leaves you dead in the water.
It might be worth it to switch out your Stomping Grounds for 2 more fetch so you at least get up to 12 initial black sources. It's still too low, but I understand you need to have enough mountains for your combo finish.
What Pettdan said has put me to think about NicFit in general and he is right. The only thing important for NicFit is a way to push it beyond it's shitty match-up's. In that regard i truly believe that Junk is the way to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by pettdan
@Arianrhod, How would you relate your GBc version of NicFit to the current meta and good-/bad matuchups as opposed to other versions of
NicFit? Or is it to soon to tell?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
@JBone, A big question i have is what makes it about this version of NicFit that you like it beyond straight JUNK or JUND?
On what threat to include it depends on where you find that your current creatures falls short.
If your suggesting Olivia, a 5 CMC BR creature then my first shout would be is Master of Cruelties. No kidding, the card
is unfair. Deathouch + First Strike is one thing, but he puts your opponent in immediate PFire range. Even if you have to Grove one back
to your hand. BUT it is not GSZ'able.
The following has more to do with me playing junk then you playing 4c, so be warned.
When looking at your list i am actually finding myself comparing cards from both jund/junk:
Punishing Fire vs Path to Exile
Recurring vs reach
Huntmaster of the Fells vs Siege Rhino
control vs robust
Slaughter Games vs Ethersworn Cannonist
Shutting down vs slowing down
Pyroblast vs more discard/extract
Reactive vs proactive
Stormbreath Dragon vs Sigarda, Host of Herons
Haste, pro white vs GSZ'able and Hexproof/Liliana proof
There is more to this this then a summed up comparison, but i like to make things simple. KISS, is what they say in the army. The
differences are in my opinion just nuances, but nuances (or details) are often very important on actual combat. In that regard i often
like more tech in my builds. But one-offs or to much variance leads to clunkiness.
Currently i feel that the added reach of Path to Exiles and that Sigarda is THE endgame you want make Junk better against decks where
NicFit falls short, see my quote from Pettdan. Our weak spot has always been combo AND anything that gets bigger. Playing combo between
Junk and Jund is somewhat similar. Playing Teeg + Hatebears have an somewhat equal effect as grinding with discard/Liliana into Slaughter
Games. Being able to play 4 Siege Rhino, which has taken a while for me to open my eyes to, means you can consistently put pressure on
your opponent, something that i missing a bit in Jund lists, where you often start to pressure after taking full control and still need
to ping away 15 life points or more. Anyway, the big sellingpoint on junk is that Path to Exiles (a full playset) makes games against MUD,
Eldrazi, Reanimator, etc doable, while not being weaker to our regular good matchup's. Ofcourse i am now promoting my signature list,
but after weeks of tweaking and testing the list has become very streamlined. It plays very fluent. 4 VetEx+Courser+Nissa makes you ramp
like crazy, Courser+Nissa+SDT+PTruths gives you lot advantage/quality, 4 Rhino+Nissa+Sigarda+Meren punch hard, Meren+Dryad Arbor gives a
lot of maneuverability, while all removal keeps the shit clear. Somehow, while not being something new, there is a really good cohesion.
More then the variants i've played so far. Jund also has a very solid cohesion, but the overall power of the deck is lower.
btw, Liliana would fit JUND better then JUNK, but having played the Junk list for some more serious games i am actually feeling i am
missing her. I am not missing Deathrite Shaman on the other hand. I did board him in vs Miracles and Reanimator, but without DRS my
manabase development was more reliable.
Yesterday i played with some friends and to compare i played 2 different decks versus them. Truth is that i was initially testing
OmniShow for competitive purposes, but after last night i am not even sure about OmniShow (for MKM Frankfurt). While the result of Junk
is nothing to fancy, but it at least tells me that the list is running consistently, even against the more difficult matchup's
(reanimator, elves can be problematic to at times.).
With junk:
2-0 Elves!
2-0 Reanimator
2-0 Miracles
with Ub OmniShow:
2-1 Elves!
1-2 Reanimator
1-2 Miracles
So, i would probably not have convinced you to switch to full junk since i suck at speeching, but i am very curious to your answer on the
first question and would like to figure out what improvements can be done.
Somewhere i hate to admit it, but i am finally smashing face with a playset of Japanese Signed Rhino's and am actually considering to take it to MKM Frankfurt.
It's not just your list that fits that glove :wink:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
The problem I foresee by cutting the Dryad is that he'll have to cut the Diabolic intent as well.
Navsi's list is running far too few creature to reliably cast Diabolic Intent.
Color fix is the MAIN issue with Scape and I have written countless posts about it...
To sum it up:
- At least 14 green sources are mandatory to be able to play a T1 + green spell. For increased insurance (and as we are not playing any cantrips) I would advise 15 green sources. Less mulligans, more real games.
Every opening hand that doesn't include a green source HAS TO BE mulligan'ed. That's the price you have to pay for playing such deck.
- At least 11+ black sources. This is not satisfactory but you won't be able to push the black sources any further without cutting either green or red sources.
- At least 10+ mountain. The original list was playing 12 mountains which has been since reduced to 11. I'm playing with 10 mountains and I have yet to face a game where I can't Scape kill my opponent as long as you are playing "smart".
The issue lies within the fact that red sources are taking a lot of place in the deck whereas we are not playing much red spells:
10 or 11 mountains + 2 valakut.
This is a very huge commitment for a splash color.
Black is our second most wanted color (even more post side because we tend to side in many more black spells) and the one we have the less access to.
Best potential mana base configuration for 10 mountains
14G 13B 14R (not counting Valakut)
2/3 Taiga
4 Badland
3 Bayou
1/2 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
15G 12B 14R (not counting Valakut)
3/4 Taiga
3 Badland
3 Bayou
1/2 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
Best potential mana base configuration for 11 mountains
15G 11B 15R (not counting valakut)
4 Taiga
3 Badland
2 Bayou
2 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
14G 12B 15R (not counting valakut)
3/4 Taiga
4 Badland
2 Bayou
1/2 Stomping Ground
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
FWIW:
- 13 B is the best, sideboard wise but I prefer playing 15 green sources. I hate mulliganing because I have no green mana
- The difference between 12 B and 11 B is a mere 4 % when it comes to opening hand (81 % to 77%).
This is a "watercourse"; but when you are looking for a T1 discard spell + a black source (mulligans included) it is rather a "river" to cross...
- 4 Verdant catacombs because you want a basic forest AND a basic swamp before anything else.
- the split between Stomping Ground/Taiga is up-to-you. If you are parano as I am you will play 2 stomp. If you care more about the 2PV, then Taiga it is.
Cheers,
Ralf
Sure it does. The details are gonna make the difference. Well, for me at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
@Bobmans: Olivia costs 4 mana, not 5. Just saying.
While I only have 10/11 turn one sources, I can Zenith for it in case of emergency. Also no cards in the deck require BB (except Diabolic Intent -> Black card)Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Possible solutions:
1 Stomping Ground -> Blood Crypt
I ran with this previously, worked out okay.
1 Mountain -> Blood Crypt
Not sure how low on basics I'm happy to go. Also being able to fetch a second basic Mountain off STE and/or Veteran can be handy if I'm expecting to need to Wish for Pyroclasm or similar.
1 Forest -> Bayou / Verdant Catacombs
I used to run two forests, but put the third one in when I added Nissa. It could probably come back out, but being able to trigger Nissa more consistently (say, after Veteran -> Nissa -> Witness) might be important.
I feel like the 12 mountains I'm at at the moment gives me a relatively reliable Scapeshift plan. Going to 10 makes things significantly less comfortable - if anything I'd probably stay at 11, dropping a Stomping Ground and a Forest for a second Bayou and a fourth fetchland.
Edit: @Ralf
I have found the second Swamp in particular to be relatively unimportant. Since we always search for the first one asap anyway, and we don't need double black for anything so the second Swamp just increases our odds of not getting G in the opening hand.
You're missing the point, but that's fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
@Ralf: In each and every manabase you present you can switch a Forest for another fetchland, upping the initial black count +1 so @10 mountains you could reach 14/14/15 G/B/R. For 11 mountains you can get to 14/13/16 G/B/R.
In case you didn't notice, I'm perfectly fine with having 14 initial green sources :tongue:. I think it's more import to aim for at least 14 across the board rather than >14 green and then whatever you can get.
4 Taiga
4 Badlands
1 Stomping Ground
2 Mountain
2 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
15G / 13B / 16R / 11 mountains
or -1 Bayou +1 Swamp if basic count is too low:
14G / 13B / 16R / 11 mountains
@Navsi: I just realised that with the 15/13/16 configuration you could switch your Stomping Grounds for a BR shockdual (Blood Crypt). That would bring you up to 14/14/16 on 11 mountains!
5 basics is a bit low but less important than your initial mana count. I mean, how many Vet Exes do you plan to blow up each game? Probably won't be more than 2. You just have to remember to fetch duals whenever you can, I suppose.
@ Thread about Scape:
7 basics might not be mandatory at all but I think this is a yet-to-be explored path.
Obviously cutting any number of basics will fix a bit further our color requirement.
In any case, I would start testing with 6 basics. Dropping to 5 might be doable but I would be very very cautious.
But one has to pay attention that 4 veteran + 1 sakura is asking for basics and one also has to pay attention to those games where you'll only want to fetch/grab basics to be able to a play a clean Scape + 7 basics.
At last, there is a non-mentioned corner case where you already have your lone swamp (for example) in play and multiple discard spells in hand. This might not be relevant but who knows...
While we're at it: In lists with a low number of fetchlands, Dryad Arbor often is sub par. And now we've cleared that out of the Scapeshift list, you probably want to drop the Diabolic Intent as well (as Ralf mentioned). In a creature and fetch heavy list it's a wonderful card (heck, I even run 2). Without either it loses value fast.