[Deck] Solitaire (Enchantress)

@mrmaul558, im glad you enjoyed the report, and that it succeeded in giving reasons as to why certain cards were run/not run. I feel too often people (me included) look at a list and judge card choices harshly, where as if there is a simple explanation people are clued into that insight. That may very well have been what i have done with crop rotation, so if you are fond of it, then by all means run it. It really doesnt fit my playstyle for the deck, but thats the beauty with this deck, it has tons of different inceptions. Just like the chrome moxen or ESG versions. I agree that you should probably take emrakul out for a forest, like i said every match that i drew him in sacremento i wanted to sigh and wished it had been anything else. Other than that id try to squeeze at least a guile in there, like -1 oring for a singleton. You probably read my response about the double o ring on salvation because you seem to be alluding to it a little, so i wont be a broken record.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freggle

Thank you cthulhu_dude23. I found this to be a fun and informative read. I would like to say from your performances with the deck and watching your video I think your play skill is pretty high. Frankly, better than mine. I hope to some day learn how to calm the nerves and play more soundly. If you would like to read about any of my trysts with Enchantress you can do so here in a highly developmental enchantress variant.

I think enchantress is a fun deck, and the overall enchantress concept is the sole reason for my return to magic. I do feel that current lists are not well positioned for the meta, but I tend to believe that an optimal undiscovered list does exist.

So some questions for you:

Have you ever tried boarding in Leyline of Sanctity vs. Esper Blade? ...do you lean heavy on choke?

What do you think of Stony Silence as a way to neuter Engineered Explosives?

What are your initial reactions to the rough blue splash list posted above (quote below)? ...do you feel it's a step in the wrong direction?




I'd love to hear your thoughts, and I really appreciate you sharing your time with us here.

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You are too kind freggle, far more so than i probably deserve. I too am happy to see that some good came of my wall of text. You mentioned nerves, and on that note I have a weird quirk that happens everytime i go to an scg open or grand prix; I shake the entire first round. And i dont mean a little nervous, i mean downright tremble to the point where my opponents think im going to have a heart attack. It has to do with a complex I have of being absolutely petrified of screwing up, but i just take a dose of mind over matter and get through the round without screwing up and on away i go.

Anyway, on to your questions. I want to board in leylines against esperblade soooooo badly, but heres the problem, most everything else in your mainboard is already very good against them that it is very hard to take cards out for them. You only really take out e tutor and 1 grass (potentially moat, but it depends if they are on a clique gameplan or not) for o ring and choke or the halo instead of ring. So id like to put them in, but its tough to cut much more than that.

Now for stony silence, i didnt see it coming game 2 so it caught me with my pants down. Had i brought it in it would have been a 1 of that had no other interaction with the rest of UR delver. I could have forseen him shrugging his shoulders and just burning me. It sucked, im not gonna lie, but he also had zero way of using it to blow up anything 3 or more, which is where the money is. Early on like in game 2 it can bury me, but i also had a land light hand. After its pushed to the late game with choke he has to be conservative with the lands, and he really cant afford searching up 3 duals or islands and possibly using a wasteland to blow up some cards while he cant use them anymore.

First off, I loved the scientific method with which you used to go about designing that version. You analyzed weaknesses, card choices, answers, etc and built the deck up from the ground up. With a new version of anything that is drastically different it must be attacked like this. Too often ive seen people just try to shove this engine or land tax into an existing enchantress build. Doesnt work like that.

As far as the actual list, lets start off by saying that Im extremely stubborn and set in my ways. Theres a reason why it took me forever to switch over to GSZ, it was different. And if thats a change this is a downright paradigm shif. That aside though, Ill try and be as objective as possible.

My main concern with the engine is that so many slots must be devoted to it, and either piece of the engine is not great on its own and doesnt further your gameplan. Not to mention that this doesn't shore up our weakness to Emrakul any.

I wish there were at least 2 growths in there, 4 if at all possible. Id play 10 if I could (when that avacyn resotred card came out, i almost passed out...until i read that it just filtered mana, so close) We are an extremely slow engine, and those ramp spells are critical to our gameplan. When mental misstep was legal this deck was essentially dead because we got slowed down to a crawl. With only 2 groves the engine seems a little fragile, not to mention that its arguably our best card.

Snapcaster wont work at all if wheel is your main engine, thats for sure so Id cut him right away.

Now have i ever tested this? No. I do like it better than that pucca's mischief garbage though, thats for sure. I wouldnt mind trying this out with my local play group and giving you a more in depth opinion of it that is more than theorycrafting.
Do i think its the answer? No, but also understand that Ive never been a fan of this engine and have ranted about it quite a few times. You could call me a purist to tried and true methods.

Ive got to ask though, do you really think the meta is so bad for enchantress? I don't think so. Combo aside from dredge never is more than 10% of any given meta, if that. And look at the tournament results as of late, S&S and reanimator's domination has been highly exaggerated. They are being hated out and addressed in sideboards by the fair decks that otherwise can't cope with them. Look what the rest of the meta is; maverick (a joke for us), candian thresh (once again, laughable), fish (not too bad, we have a lot of answers here and you have to be careful), stoneblade (esper is a little annoying, but uw is totally fine and they are at least manageable), miracle top (doesn't really interact with us), nic fit (aside from deed is laughable so just assume they have it and ramp out the justice, i want to kiss them when they give us free lands), goblins (lol), burn (dies to leyline something fierce as they really dont play anarchy anymore).

There are rough matchups as always and a couple are abysmal, but we just just have to look for answers for them. Or (and i hate this route, but sometimes is the best one) just resign the worst to being a total loss.

Ive always been firmly of the camp that as long as there are at least a few slow control decks and aggro decks out there, this deck is still good. When we see the days when creatures aren't turning sideways in legacy anymore, then it'll be the day to hang up the towel. And i don't believe we are anywhere close to that day. I think its a resilient enough deck to weather even slanted metagames and still do well, and skill goes a long way to reinforce that. Hell, look at the lands player that took first awhile back. LANDS! A deck that dies to Jace almost outright, and has a poor combo matchup as well. So allow that to steel your resolve some.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freggle

Maindeck:

Enchantress Effects (10)
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Dig
3 Mirri's Guile
4 Brainstorm:u:

Locks
4 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Energy Field:u:
2 Sterling Grove

Ramp
4 Utopia Sprawl


The Catch-all
2 Oblivion Ring

The Win
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Mana (20)
1 Karakas
2 Serra's Sanctum
5 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
4 Surgical Extraction - Combo / Dredge / Control / Reanimator
3 Snapcaster Mage - Perhaps weak but intended to double up on surgicals and b. storms
4 Mystic Remora - Combo
4 Spell Pierce - Combo

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There are a few things I would note with this list:
1. Mirri's Guile is not very good here. You have loads of redundancy across your cards with 11 ways to stall pretty much indefinitely. These could be Wild Growths.
2. Serra's Sanctum is not that strong in this list. You're way better at stalling than most builds, so you don't need that accelerating oomph. It gets better when you run cards like Humility and Moat (which, you know, something to think about).
3. I certainly have no problem with having only 1 win condition in this deck (heck I used to run a singleton Mirari's Wake as my kill, whee 1/2 Enchantresses), but it can be a little dicey, especially if it gets discarded early. If you're going to have just one kill slot, Emrakul might be better.
4. I agree with everyone else that Replenish is a must. It even interacts well with Wheel of Sun and Moon. It can Replenish onto you under Solitary Confinement so you avoid decking without making yourself vulnerable.
5. In trying to protect Energy Field you want to have at least 3 Sterling Grove, I think. You may want to consider an all (or almost all) basics manabase, as well. You keep the fetches, but get rid of the Duals. You don't have any strong mana requirements besides Sigil and I'm assuming that will get played with a Sanctum or a Utopia Sprawl in play.

Is this more correct? And after looking at the SB'ing (below) I'm starting to wonder if the MD Choke should be something else...Enlightened Tutor #2? I was afraid of Thought Scour, but then I can just side them out against RUG Delver (what else plays Thought Scour? Anything?) Then cut the Lignify in the board for the 2nd Choke?
-1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
-1 City of Solitude
+1 Forest
-1 Runed Halo
+1 Humility

2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Plains
5 Forest
1 Karakas

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Solitary Confinement

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Humility
1 Choke
1 Words of War
2 Sigil of the Empty Throne

2 Replenish
1 Crop Rotation
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity (Combo/Discard/Burn)
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon (Graveyard, Reanimator)
1 Choke (Blue)
1 City of Solitude
1 Karmic Justice (Wasteland, Vindicate)
1 Oblivion Ring (Control, Reanimator, Sneaky Show)
1 Runed Halo
1 Raking Canopy (Any flying creatures)
1 Lignify (Reanimator)
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog

Would you guys help me get down my SB'ing?

Here's my thoughts on a few matchups:
RUG Delver:
+1 Choke
-1 Elephant Grass
+1 City of Solitude
-1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Sneaky Show/Show and Tell:
-2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Lignify
-1 Choke
-1 Words of War
+2 Wheel of Sun and Moon

Reanimator:
-2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Lignify
-1 Choke
-1 Words of War
+2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
-1 Taiga
+1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Replenish
+1 Crop Rotation

Affinity:
+1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Choke

Esper Stoneblade:
+1 Karmic Justice (For Engineered Explosives)
-1 Humility
+1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Words of War

Zombie Bombardment:
+4 Leyline of Sanctity
-2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
-1 Choke
-1 Elephant Grass?

At first i really have to thank cthulhu_dude23 for your awesome report. It was a pleasure reading it! It's always nice to read how other people play the deck and how they decide. This helps preparing for tournaments alot. I will run nearly the same version of your deck (i think 3 cards differ) at a 150 ppl tournament tomorrow. I will let you all know how that went (but dont expect too much - im still a beginner with this deck ^^)

@mrmaul558: I wouldnt cut the lignify, because its an awesome card against thalia and the like and is our only out against Iona on white. What i would do is transferring the Humility to the sideboard, because like cthulhu_dude23 already observed, SneakShow and Reanimator are hated massively.
I think your list is solid and if you like to play Crop Rotation you should do it. The only thing i would change is reducing the number of Sigils to 1, and add an Oblivion Ring or so. I think 2 win-cons is really enough.

When it comes to boarding i will relate only to the RUG-Delver Matchup because i thought about that extensively.
With your current SB you really want against RUG: Runed Halo, Raking Canopy, O-Ring, City of Solitude, Choke and maybe Lignify.
Halo is against mongeese and the rest stops counters or aggro.

In my opinion, its save to board out Sterling Groves and E-Tutor against RUG. Thats what i would do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mrmaul558

I
RUG Delver:
+1 Choke
-1 Elephant Grass
+1 City of Solitude
-1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

Sneaky Show/Show and Tell:
-2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Lignify
-1 Choke
-1 Words of War
+2 Wheel of Sun and Moon

Reanimator:
-2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Lignify
-1 Choke
-1 Words of War
+2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
-1 Taiga
+1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Replenish
+1 Crop Rotation

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How you win if you are SBing out all your wincon?

Cya

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JanoschEausH

@mrmaul558: I wouldnt cut the lignify, because its an awesome card against thalia and the like and is our only out against Iona on white. What i would do is transferring the Humility to the sideboard, because like cthulhu_dude23 already observed, SneakShow and Reanimator are hated massively.
I think your list is solid and if you like to play Crop Rotation you should do it. The only thing i would change is reducing the number of Sigils to 1, and add an Oblivion Ring or so. I think 2 win-cons is really enough.

When it comes to boarding i will relate only to the RUG-Delver Matchup because i thought about that extensively.
With your current SB you really want against RUG: Runed Halo, Raking Canopy, O-Ring, City of Solitude, Choke and maybe Lignify.
Halo is against mongeese and the rest stops counters or aggro.

In my opinion, its save to board out Sterling Groves and E-Tutor against RUG. Thats what i would do.

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TBH, I think its more correct to move Choke to the SB before Humility (Which is awesomely good against RUG Delver, Maverick, etc)

I agree with 1x Sigil.

I think cutting at least 1x Wheel of Sun and Moon from the SB might be correct - I don't think they help enough against the reanimator matchup (where I want Crop Rotation -> Bojuka Bog anyways. Or something like Purify the Grave). I just don't think it affects the percentages enough to warrant two slots in the board.

@ novatinhu: Fixed below.

-1 Sigil
+1 Oblivion Ring
-1 Replenish (--> SB)
+1 Enlightened Tutor

-1 Wheel of Sun and Moon (SB)

2 Savannah
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Plains
5 Forest
1 Karakas

4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Solitary Confinement

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Humility
1 Choke
1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne

1 Replenish
1 Crop Rotation
2 Green Sun's Zenith

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity (Combo/Discard/Burn)
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon (Graveyard, Reanimator)
1 Replenish (Control, Counterspells, Maverick)
1 Choke (Blue)
1 City of Solitude (Control)
1 Karmic Justice (Wasteland, Vindicate)
1 Oblivion Ring (Control, Reanimator, Sneaky Show)
1 Runed Halo
1 Raking Canopy (Any flying creatures)
1 Lignify (Reanimator)
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bojuka Bog

Updated Sideboarding (Percentage of top 8's in the last two months)
RUG Delver (19%)
-2 Enlightened Tutor
-4 Sterling Grove
+1 Choke
+1 City of Solitude
+1 Runed Halo
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Raking Canopy
+1 Lignify

Maverick (14%)
-1 Choke
-2 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Replenish
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Lignify

Sneaky Show/Show and Tell (6%)
-1 Choke
-1 Words of War
-1 Solitary Confinement
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Lignify
+1 Runed Halo

Elves (6%)
-1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
-1 Runed Halo
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Lignify

Reanimator (5%)
-1 Choke
-1 Words of War
-1 Taiga
-1 Replenish
-1 Solitary Confinement
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Lignify
+1 Crop Rotation
+1 Bojuka Bog
+1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

UW Miracles (6%)
-6 ???
+1 Replenish
+1 Choke
+1 City of Solitude
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Runed Halo
+1 Raking Canopy

Stoneblade (9%)
-1 Humility
-1 Words of War
-2 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Karmic Justice (For Engineered Explosives)
+1 City of Solitude
+1 Replenish
+1 Oblivion Ring

Zombie Bombardment (1%) (I foresee this being popular)
-1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
-1 Choke
-2 Enlightened Tutor
+4 Leyline of Sanctity

2 hints: i would NEVER board out win-cons. you have 50 minutes per round to play a bo3. Enchantress tends to have loooong games. If you reduce your win-cons by 50%, you are effectively doubling the amount of time to find a win-con.

against Sneak/Show i would simply board out -3 Solitary Confinements. Why? Because Emrakul laughs at your confinement and Griselbrand is stopped by Elephant Grass.

About the Zombie Bombardement: I think you wont see this much often. The deck is just bad. Everybody knows that. The reason why it has had that much attention, is that Sam Black piloted the deck. Seriously, you could hand Sam Black a M13-Starterpack and he would Top 8 at SCG.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JanoschEausH

2 hints: i would NEVER board out win-cons. you have 50 minutes per round to play a bo3. Enchantress tends to have loooong games. If you reduce your win-cons by 50%, you are effectively doubling the amount of time to find a win-con.

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You do know that this is Enchantress, right? I don't mean to sound condescending or anything, but you are completely ignoring the 6x tutors in the deck. My version runs 4x Sterling Grove and 2x Enlightened Tutor. So what you mean is that I went from 8x win cons to 7x win cons. That's not even close to 50%.

Against Elves or Reanimator... Sigil of the Empty Throne doesn't do anything. Those games are about hating them out early game, then stabilizing. Once you do that, you only need 1x Words of War to win.

Against Stoneblade, it may be correct to keep Words of War in, since they can counter your wincons and if they counter Sigil + Replenish you can't win. But you haven't offered an alternative card to SB out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JanoschEausH

against Sneak/Show i would simply board out -3 Solitary Confinements. Why? Because Emrakul laughs at your confinement and Griselbrand is stopped by Elephant Grass.

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That may actually be correct, I didn't think of that.

Sneaky Show/Show and Tell (6%)
-1 Choke (Because this card is actually useless against them.)
-2 Solitary Confinement (Is there a card I want more than the 3rd confinement?)
+1 Oblivion Ring
+1 Lignify
+1 Runed Halo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JanoschEausH

About the Zombie Bombardement: I think you wont see this much often. The deck is just bad. Everybody knows that. The reason why it has had that much attention, is that Sam Black piloted the deck. Seriously, you could hand Sam Black a M13-Starterpack and he would Top 8 at SCG.

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Probably not, but the possibility of me playing against it is very real.

I just wanted to let you know that i failed miserably at my local tournament (70 Players - not even half from what they expected) :)

I died completely to Combo and made some big mistakes.

R1: Lost 0:2 against Aluren
R2: Draw 1:1 against Reanimator (btw. Sigil saved me there so i had Blockers for his fatties)
R3: Lost 1:2 against Landstill (Last 2 Games he played all 4 Standstill within the first 6 Turns of the game... Buried me under card advantage)
R4: Lost 0:2 against Hypergenesis (Game 2 i had Lignify, E-Grass and O-Ring but Terastodon and Progenitus just rule....)
R5: Lost 1:2 against GeddonStaxx (was a draw, but i offered him the win because i wanted to drop anyways)

-> I will try Choke for sure. And play more tournaments to get more used to the deck.

mrmaul558, i hope you do better at your tournament :)

I ended up going 2-3 drop. I'll edit this post with my list (I ended up playing 3x Mirri's Guile in my list and loved it) when I get home from work, but here were my matchups:

Round 1 - RUG Delver - Matt Costa

Starting the day off against a pro! It was pretty cool, actually. Game 1 I kept a two lander with tons of gas (GSZ and Presence), but never drew another land. :/
Game 2 I got there, he just couldn't put enough pressure on me.
Game 3 he was on the play. By his turn three he has a Tarmogoyf in play, 2 duals and a fetch. I have a forest w/Utopia Sprawl for white and a fetch with maybe mirri's guile in play or something. He had very little experience with the deck, so he didn't really know what silver bullets I could be holding for his deck (I was actually surprised). I had Blood Moon in hand, and was hoping that he was going to fetch for a dual on his turn. After considering for a bit, he ended up grabbing Volcanic Island and dropping a delver before passing turn. I untap, and had to ask a judge a stupid question that I already knew the answer to about Utopia Sprawl falling off a dual after Blood Moon comes into play. Long story short, I got too excited when I got back to the table that I just ran my blood moon out there - WITHOUT PLAYING THE KARAKAS IN MY HAND FIRST. So, of course, I forget to play around Daze and what is the only counter in his hand? Daze, of course. That just allows him to keep his manabase up long enough for me to not be able to do anything relevant the rest of the game. I'm not sure I would've actually won had that Blood Moon resolved, but I had a good feeling about the rest of teh game after that Blood Moon. Ugh, not even Round 2 and I hate myself.

Lost 1-2

0-1

Round 2 - Maverick
This matchup isn't even worth describing here. I smashed his face in. He had more cards to take out of his deck than he had relevant ones to put back in (Ended up boarding out 4x Swords to Plowshares and 1x Path to Exile for 1x Ethersword Canonist, 1x Gaddock Teeg, something random, 1x Linvala and 1x Sigarda just because they turned sideways. I proceeded to win this match easily 2-0.

Won 2-0

1-1

Round 3 - Sneaky Show
This had be very, very worried. First spell I see is Lotus Petal so I assume Storm combo or something since he wasn't playing any other non-reactive spells. I didn't see a Show and Tell G1, but he did tap out for Sneak Attack (He was having a rough time of it), which I promptly Oblivion Ring'd to seal up G1.
Game 2 I just made sure I had as many targets to Show and Tell into play as I could, and he ended up getting there with Sneak Attack Emrakul. :/
Game 3 I ripped Humility and Crop Rotation in my opening grip - this was an obvious keep, since the Humility ruined his Show and Tell plan, and Crop Rotation for Karakas kept him off of Emrakul if he was tapped out. It was the best plan I could possibly have against the deck, and I didn't end up needing either one. This game turned into draw-go on both sides for at least 7 turns before I ended up starting to "go off". I ended up winning the match.

Won 2-1

2-1

Round 4 - RUG Delver - Kenny Castor
This matchup is very, very winnable for my deck, but unfortunately he just got 2x Spell Snare for my Argothian's G2 and then G3 he Spell Pierce'd my Presence then proceeded to Surgical Extraction them away. :'( That match didn't last very long. (this guy got 2nd in the tournament, also)

Lost 1-2

2-2

Round 5 - Death and Taxes Homebrew (running 4x Leonin Arbiter in the MD)
Here is where I kick myself, and then I kick myself again. Game 1 I got there easily, this matchup seems very good for me.
Game 2 I had to keep Forest Utopia Sprawl hand, hoping he doesn't have Rishadan Port. Well, he had both that and Thalia to lock me out of the game. :/
Game 3 I was easily able to set up the lock, and just went off for about 4-5 turns straight just running enchantments out there digging for a win con (Completely forgetting to tutor for one and lock up the game). So, while all this was going on, he kept Aether Vial at 2 and didn't scoop for some reason. I racked my brain thinking of what he could possibly have, but I wasn't paying much attention because I was having so much fun going off. With 7 cards in deck and 5x Enchantress effects in play, I cast Words of War, thinking I was set. In response, he taps Vial and lays down a Phyrexian Revoker. -.- FML. For some reason my brain told me that I could still use the ability, but it just wouldn't do any damage, so I proceeded to run Humility out there (something I should've done ages ago)... and decked myself out (Sigil of the Empty Throne was the 60th card in my deck also). And I did end up cutting Emrakul from the deck (And eventually trading it away), so I didn't even have that failsafe for my own stupidity.

...

Lost 1-2

2-3 Drop.

I was so frustrated that I dropped immediately. 5-3 had a chance of getting money (it was only about 220 people or something like that, 8 rounds of swiss), but I didn't feel like playing anymore after losing to myself twice.

But all in all, the deck I think is very well positioned in the meta game with a little luck in not getting paired against storm combo decks and the like. With Maverick and RUG Delver being such a high percentage of the metagame right now, I think Enchantress is actually a fine choice. I'll definitely be looking for more opportunities to play the deck around and get more experience with it (this was my first large Legacy event after all, and my only event playing the completed deck.)

In other Enchantress news - I did get my 2nd Foil Replenish for my deck this weekend! WEEEEEE

Hey, dont be frustrated - in Legacy its all about practise and making the right decisions. If you play more often with one deck, things will get better in the course of time.
I am, speaking for myself, not very experienced with Enchantress either, but i am not in a bad mood after my desolate performance this weekend. I just need more experience with the deck, which will eventually come by itself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JanoschEausH

Hey, dont be frustrated - in Legacy its all about practise and making the right decisions. If you play more often with one deck, things will get better in the course of time.
I am, speaking for myself, not very experienced with Enchantress either, but i am not in a bad mood after my desolate performance this weekend. I just need more experience with the deck, which will eventually come by itself.

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I'm both frustrated and glad that I learned something from the experience at the same time. And honestly, I wasn't expecting THAT large of a misplay considering I've been playing various unfinished versions of the deck for 6-8 years now. -.- But, there's always next time. :)

Gentlemen. I just wanted to say thank you for your reports. You did the archetype proud. As it is already stated enchantress is a difficult archetype to master.

The fact that you took it to a major tournament says your serious about learning, and that should be the key take away. I think you did well. As stated before combo is difficult, and you got through Sneak and Show. That's awesome.

Adding the Mirri's Guile seems strong. Lets face it enchantress mulligans too much, just look at all the tournament reports. Adding the guile and faith in numbers can help you dig to a second or third land and make your initial 7's more keep-able.

My only recommendation would have been force yourself not to drop. The only way you learn is to play more, and you have to force yourself to do it at times.

Looks like the deck rolled over to RUG. Can someone explain to me how this is considered favorable? It seems to me that their beatz backed with the tempo are just a bit too efficient, and sneak under our lock.

@Jason combo is rough. Looking at your SB your yard hate looks slow. I can't not say enough good about Surgical Extraction have you ever tried it? It's always "online" and it's easy for us to draw into it.

The RUG matchup, I think, is favorable, if only slightly. Post board it becomes a bit more even I think, but its still in our favor I think.

In my Round 1 vs. RUG, I'm 90% sure I would've had the game locked up had I been able to resolve Blood Moon, and in my Round 4, he just drew all his hate for me games 2 and 3 (which means I won game 1, which wasn't difficult). The matchup can be draw dependent.

I think that RUG is a much more favorable MU postboard than preboard. Now, I'm not a RUG player by any means so I do not pretend to understand completely how they compensate for their weaknesses, but based on how much I've perused the RUG thread I can essentially break down the average SB into the following:

GY Hate: Grafdigger's Cage, Tormod's Crypt, Surgical Extraction
Counters: Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast
Misc. Meta hate: Krosan Grip, Submerge, Ancient Grudge, Rough/Tumble

GY hate, while annoying, is not life-threatening to our deck strategy. In the absence of creature-based decks like Maverick, Snare, the most relevant of counters against us imo, is seeing much less use. Kgrip is annoying sometimes but they rarely run more than 2. Grudge does absolutely nothing against us, and Rough/Tumble is less common a SB card, moreso with the absence of Maverick, which leaves the Submerge as the most relevant random hate, and tbh not many players I've seen SB these in as they don't really damage us all that much since we can still fall back on Presence and Guile for protection.

Take, in contrast, to our SB options: Leyline of Sanctity, Raking Canopy, Choke, City of Solitude. There are several other choices but I consider these the most common and relevant. Sanctity makes their burn completelty useless (since we don't even run creatures they can target). Canopy, a card not mainstream but still worth of use if RUG is flooded in your meta, kills off what many consider to be the most annoying creature. Choke disables their manabase since very rarely do they run basic forest or mountains, meaning all their colored lands are stapped while simultaneously making it that much harder for them to cast all of their cantrips/counters. City, probably my favorite, completely negates their counters and makes Bstorm less amazing.

Since RUG is the problem DTB for us many players have even been starting to MD Choke/City of Solitude as a 1/1 which seems to have been improving their MU significantly which I consider to be noteworthy.

My opinion for poor MU is mainly that we just need to reach a consensus over the value of certain cards and try to find a more solid MU. The problem with silver bullet deck strategies is that people tend to want to include 1 of everything in the MD. Honestly, our hate is so universal you're much better off keeping those 1-ofs in the SB and having the MD stay as redundant as possible.

Honestly, look at hte average deck build. Essentially, our skeleton breaks down to:
6-8 Fetch
2 Sanctum
0-1 Karakas
5-8 Forest
1-3 Plains

4 Growth
4 Sprawl
4 Argothian
4 Presence
4 Grove
4 Grass
2-4 Confinement
1 Sigil
1 WoW
0-1 Emrakul

This skeleton right off the bat essentially eats up the entire deck selection, leaving only slightly more than 10 slots with which we can work. Also note that in this list I'm throwing cards considered necessary by many like ETutor, Guile, GSZ, and O-Ring in the "flex," category. So, if we add any combination of cards just listed, the amount of deck space we have to work with becomes even less.

I honestly doubt ours is a deck that is ever going to have a skeleton with "absolute," numbers year round since we're a prison-combo deck that relies heavily on the meta. We just need to constantly look at the meta, see whats absolutely necessary and what isn't, and go from there.

Mirr's Guile is one of those debated cards, in my opinion, that enough people don't test. Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is yet another card I think many of those who use it are incredibly fearful to remove because of those times when it has saved them.

I'm going to just end the post here because the next thing I had thought to write was a card breakdown of the pros and cons of cards like Emrakul which, frankly, I could easily write an entire thread page worth. However, this is a nice, basic summary of my opinions on Enchantress currently.

Forlorn Egoist

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist

Honestly, look at hte average deck build. Essentially, our skeleton breaks down to:
6-8 Fetch
2 Sanctum
0-1 Karakas
5-8 Forest
1-3 Plains
0-½ Mountain

4 Growth - Why is this a must 4 of?
4 Sprawl
4 Argothian
4 Presence
4 Grove - Why is this a must 4 of?
4 Grass
2-4 Confinement
1 Sigil
0-1 WoW
0-1 Emrakul

---

I think this is a very sound way to approach the conversation. I have added notes above in bold.

I bring this up because if you drop Wild Growth from (3) to (4) you could add (1) Mirri's Guile to help with the overall silver bullet strategy. ...even more-so if you run fetches.

This slight adjustment only effects seeing a Utopia Sprawl or Wild Growth in your opening hand extremely marginally.

If the line-up of the order in which you get and cast the cards are important (which we know they are) Then you could also look to possibly reduce the Enchantress's Presence by (1) and sub in a Green Sun's Zenith. This will give the deck more shuffles and you will see more of the deck.

I also think that paying 3 mana for a tutor is too much, and in many cases the 4th Sterling Grove should be something else. That could possibly be the Enlightened Tutor that makes a lot of peoples lists and also increases shuffles.

Those minor changes will actually increase the consistency of the overall core and free other slots for development.

Remember most of the decks in Legacy run brainstorm / fetch, and this is our version of it 2-3 Mirri's Guile could go a long way. Personally I'd keep a hand that is:

Forest, Mirri's Guile, Windswept Heath, + 4 other non enchantress cards because Guile fetch will statically get you to the card you need.

Forest, Growth, fetch, 4 non-enchantress. Now that's a mulligan.

Thank you for the boldened notes, Freggle, as they were things I overlooked. I also should've noted 0-4 Savannah (most common being 0-2) but thats neither here nor there.

To begin, I agree on the note that perhaps cutting the 4/4 of Growth/Sprawl is one of the first steps to freeing slots. In all honestly I only ever really want 1 or 2 in the start of the game and anything after that is really used more for the cheap cantrip. Even if you still wanted to maintain a relatively high count cutting 1-2 of Growth/Sprawl still leaves you with 6-7 which, statistically, is still quite favorable if you want to get 1-2 early in the game. My preference would be for cutting Sprawl due to its weakness of "Forest only," which is relevant. I run 8 fetches + Taiga & Plateau so I've pretty much never run into an issue of color fixing so I most often just name green. Otherwise you could just as easily do a 3/3 split or 4/3-3/4 Growth/Sprawl depending on you manabase.

Moat- If you have 1, you don't really need it, and if you're trying to get one, don't. Moat was all-powerful several years ago in a meta underdeveloped with flying threats. Nowadays you need to worry about Delver, the fact that every cheated creature (Emrakul, Griselband, etc.) has flying, or that Dredge can win via Flayer of the Hatebound. Realistically, its just not a powerhouse anymore.

Sterling Grove- Enchantress is really underplayed in this meta and as such we have to deal with little to any Enchantress hate. Honestly the most hate I, personally, have to deal with in a given game are the 1-2 Krosan Grip from RUG, the Ray of Revelation from Dredge, or the Qasali Pridemage from Maverick. In any of these instances, at best they can kill off 1-2 enchantments. Majority of the cases, as Freggle says, its a 3 cost tutor. Enlightened Tutor is much more sound at 1. I agree with Freggle that cutting 1 Grove for an ETutor could be quite reasonable.

2-3 Mirr's Guile- This is a card I've only just rescently started looking into, however, the strengths are quite obvious in my little playtesting. Fixing our draws ultimately gurantees we'll never have to enter topdeck mode, or draw lands when sitting on 1 Enchantress (yes, this has happened on numerous ocassion where my deck trolled me with lots of topdeck lands). Also to realize that many players, including myself, have mulled until we found that Enchantress in the opening. This is not always the correct player. Having an enchantress on the field is useless if your hand is completely empty. I'm much more willing to keep a non-Enchantress hand if Guile is in it because my redundant fetches will inevitably draw me into what I want when paired with Guile.

Emrakul, the Aeons Torn- I dislike bringing this card up when there is an argument about it on every page, but I still consider it one of the most prominent dead cards people run. In all honesty, after looking at this meta, what are the most prevalent threats?:

RUG- As I listed above postboard with Leyline/Choke/City/Canopy puts the MU heavily in your favor g2/3 and they bring in next to nothing against you.

Dredge- If they don't kill you in the first 3-4 turns you'll pretty much auto-win. Emrakul is completely win-more.

Reanimator- Same argument as Dredge.

Maverick- This MU already sits heavily in your favor. Provided they don't drop too many Thalia or Qasali your early Presence, you can easily win w/o Emrakul.

Miracle/Blade Control- Postboard Choke/City (possibly Leyline for Intuition-based builds), maybe a Vexing Shusher for GSZ builds like me, and you're already having an improved MU. Emrakul is cool since he can't be countered, but before you can cast him you need to resolve not only Enchantress's but a load of permanants to power up Sanctum. Their JOB is to keep you off your spells and, realizing what you are, to kill you as fast as possible. Postboard their plan is to SB out all creature hate for more redundant counters. The MU is made somewhat difficult by Terminus and Porphyr Nodes provide early-game answers to Argothian meaning they can reserve counters for Replenish/Presence so even post SB this is still an annoying MU. Emrakul might have won you those random games you were luckily enough to cast him, but honestly think to yourself: "If I didn't have Emrakul at that time, was there a different way, some subtle nuance to my plays, that could have let me win via WoW/Sigil."

Something I tend to notice with many Enchantress's is that Emrakul is a crutch from not having to think about all the permutations of their plays. As much as our deck doesn't seem like it, we are, at least in part, combo and as such you need to treat every play as if it might keep you from going off and, ultimately, losing the game. Emrakul is much better suited in my opinion as an extra piece of hate.

Random Tribal- We ROFLstomp the main tribal: Goblins, Elves, & Merfolk. Merfolk is the toughest of the three, and even then its an uphill battle for them.

S&T/SA- If they're SA, you'll be kicking yourself that Emrakul wasn't a hate card you could actually cast to stop their creatures, and if its S&T Oblivion Ring or Journey to Nowhere are much more efficient. S&T runs NO enchantment hate, most builds not even in their SB. This means that you can either A)Hope to open with an Emrakul in your hand, or B) Hope you open with either O-Ring or 1 of 6+ tutors we have. Which seems more probable? Not only this, the JtN/O-Ring actually add to your enchantment count, thus boosting your Sanctum.

The only time I've ever liked Emrakul was that he gave me a MD out when my meta was flooded with 3-5+ Painter combos.

My main concern with where Enchantress is going right now is that people are falling back to heavily on what many consider to be our established skeleton with little concern for changing it. "Oh, but I have tutors so if I run into problems? SILVER BULLETS!!!!" Silver bullets are useful for random circumstance where you don't have to worry about excessive counters or random circumstance/hate but ultimately you need redundancy. For example I could easily run 1/1 Choke/City as tutors but I know my opponent will auto-counter so having a 2nd copy of each can be quite handy.

People need to honestly start adapting our skeletons to the meta.

Forlorn Egoist

@ForlornEgoist
You are comparing the kill condition to hate cards? I'm very confused. You should be making an argument about why Sigil/WoW is better and talking about why.

RUG: Sigil comes down earlier and can throw up some blockers potentially.
Dredge: Your kill doesn't matter.
Reanimator: If they have SnT, Emrakul is better. Otherwise, your kill doesn't matter.
Maverick: Your kill doesn't matter.
Miracle: Your kill doesn't matter. Sigil is marginally better in that it pressures them more continuously. WoW is probably the worst of the 3 (Wind, of course, would be excellent, keeping them off their mana).
Tribal: Your kill doesn't matter.
S&T/SA: Emrakul is better if they SnT. Otherwise your kill doesn't matter.
Random decks: Emrakul is more flexible and functions better in the combo/control role (Sigil is more for playing the deck like combo/aggro which is probably not its strongest suit).

It feels like this thread goes in circles, and I'd like to attempt to steer the conversation to results. So this is my suggestion: Keep a record of the tournaments you play with this deck over the next two months, then list the wins and losses against each archetype, as I did two years ago in this thread. This will tell you a lot about what you lose to and why, and we can renew the discussion from there.

Here's mine from two years ago, when I was much less experienced with this deck:

(The win-loss results are in games, and the matchups are organized, roughly, from most favorable to least favorable.)

Goblins (Mono-Red version) 2-0
Goblins (RBG version) 2-0
Dragon Stompy 2-0
Canadian Thresh 4-0
Merfolk (Mono-Blue version) 2-0
Merfolk (UW version) 2-1
Dredge 8-3
Mono-Brown Stax 2-1
Mirror match 1-1
Reanimator 3-3
Zoo 4-7
CounterTop (Progenitus version) 1-2
CounterTop (Dark Depths version) 1-2
Tempo Bant 0-2
CounterTop (UWB Thopter version) 1-2
43 Land 1-2
Blue Lands 1-2
CounterTop (UBW Stiflenought version) 0-2
CounterTop (UBW mill version) 0-2
Deadguy Ale 0-4
ANT 1-4
CounterTop (Firespout version) 1-8


Since then, the printing of Green Sun's Zenith and Emrakul pretty much solved the CounterTop problem.

Are you guys interested in keeping a record like this?

Yes i like your idea. I will try to keep track of my next tournament results and let you know when i have collected some data.