[Deck] Merfolk

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Originally Posted by Finn

Phoenix, are you playing Wake Thrasher, Sovereign, and Kira all in the main? How can you fit all that?

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Negative, I play a very similar list to Daredevil (I think I actually gave him that exact list but I'd have to check my messages). I don't run Wakethrasher main, and my question was directed towards his 1-of sideboarded Selkie. To me it seems like you would rather have the thrasher in all of the same matchups that you'd want the Selkie in, as he is just more raw power to finish the game. Selkie's draws can at best draw you into a swarm of creatures, but they don't hit very quickly and especially in the mirrormatch, they won't help you not die

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

Negative, I play a very similar list to Daredevil (I think I actually gave him that exact list but I'd have to check my messages). I don't run Wakethrasher main, and my question was directed towards his 1-of sideboarded Selkie. To me it seems like you would rather have the thrasher in all of the same matchups that you'd want the Selkie in, as he is just more raw power to finish the game. Selkie's draws can at best draw you into a swarm of creatures, but they don't hit very quickly and especially in the mirrormatch, they won't help you not die

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Yeah, the list is almost identidal to the one you gave me (Thanks!). +2 Kira for- 2 Jitte as you suggested for random meta. And I have +2 Echoing Truth for -2 Wake Thrasher. I really agree on the no Selkie in the sideboard. I just didn't think of it before the tournament. I still prefer Llanowar in the mirror but as discussed it is very narrow.

What about changing by MAINDECK -2 Echoing Truth (the card I alot of time wish it was another) for +2 Wake Thrashe
(man... I just realized this makes my current list identical MD to the one you gave me)

3 Submerge
3 Blue Elemental Blast / Hydroblast
3 Spell Pierce
3 Relic of Progenitus (1)
1 Wake Thrasher (3)
2 Propaganda

Then my list has 23 Creatures MD, 24 Post-Board with 3 Thrashers, 2 Kira (slows down Jitte) and the other usual suspects. So I should have a very decent chance in the mirror. I don't have any ET in the main or in the board but I don't feel the need either. Or should I still take out ET but replace it with something like 2 Relics (helps against goyf, loam, dredge) and is 1for1 in all other matchups in game 1. And run 3 Wake Thrashers in the side? I don't think running Relics in the main is a stupid idea. Should I go with one of the following changes and just try to check out the metagame on site?

My only problem with Llawan is that I never run enough in the sideboard to make use of her. I always ran 2 and would just never hit either of them the whole time, and after 4 tournament mirror matches without ever seeing one I decided to just drop them. It's a ridiculously good card if the opponent didn't start with a vial out, and even if they did it is still a huge tempo swing. Especially if they bumped vial up to 3, then they are just stuck with their 3 drops.

I agree with the ET statement, it's always been clunky. An extra 2 Wakethrasher add a lot of power, and extra creatures is the way to go against zoo since you might actually be able to run their removal out and stick a Thrasher long enough to win. If you don't plan on playing against decks that have the types of cards like Moat then it might not be worth it. I've actually played 3 maindeck relics and it won me a tournament that was full of aggro loam. It's obviously meta dependent:

Great against:
Lands
Aggro Loam
Tempo Thresh
Reanimator
Ichorid
Team America (is this played anymore? Probably not)

Against zoo it's either good or awful depending on what they draw. If they hit Nacatls and Kird Apes then it sucks, if they draw Lavamancer + Goyf then it's going to probably win you the game.

And against Tribal it's pretty horrible. So if you expect the top list then don't hesitate to put it in as it's going to seriously mess with people game 1 before they have any answers to it.

I would probably try to add some echoing truth or at the very least 1 more Spell Pierce in your sideboard against stax or heavy control style decks. Echoing Truth has the bonus of being awesome against Ichorid and EtW tokens.

@Daredevil:

I think Echoing Truth in the main makes a lot more sense than Relic. Truth will pretty much always have a target, although it might be slightly dead. Relic cantrips, but in some matches it will do literally nothing for you, besides cantrip for two mana...

Just a quick thought...

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

@Daredevil:

I think Echoing Truth in the main makes a lot more sense than Relic. Truth will pretty much always have a target, although it might be slightly dead. Relic cantrips, but in some matches it will do literally nothing for you, besides cantrip for two mana...

Just a quick thought...

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Without cantrips you won't find enough counterspells to take that much advantage of a Echoing Truth. There are a decent number of dream scenarios like EOT bounce your goyf, my turn drop a vial + Standstill, but I would say in 80% of the times that I have ET maindecked it just saves me from taking damage from a goyf swing once, while making them tap 2 mana again. Very lackluster in my experience, and unless you're already ahead it's a bad topdeck.

Also, Relic just flat out wins games against the right types of decks, and those types of decks (Aggro Loam, Lands) are gaining popularity in the metagame again.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

Without cantrips you won't find enough counterspells to take that much advantage of a Echoing Truth. There are a decent number of dream scenarios like EOT bounce your goyf, my turn drop a vial + Standstill, but I would say in 80% of the times that I have ET maindecked it just saves me from taking damage from a goyf swing once, while making them tap 2 mana again. Very lackluster in my experience, and unless you're already ahead it's a bad topdeck.

Also, Relic just flat out wins games against the right types of decks, and those types of decks (Aggro Loam, Lands) are gaining popularity in the metagame again.

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Relic adds answers against decks that use the graveyard. Echoing Truth adds answers against decks that play nonland permanents. In the end it's just a metagame call, if you play all day against Ichorid, Goyf Decks, Life from the Loam decks then the Relic is the better choice. But if you see yourself losing to resolved Jittes, Moats, Humility, and the sorts then the Echoing Truth is better.

Echoing Truth does make your Stanstills better, no dream scenario there. You counter some stuff, they resolve a Goyf, you bounce it EOT and play Standstill on your turn. Seems like what the deck is supposed to do most of the games.

What are your guy's thoughts about Harsh Mercy for the white splash? Probably not good against goblins but strong against zoo.

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Originally Posted by luckme10

What are your guy's thoughts about Harsh Mercy for the white splash? Probably not good against goblins but strong against zoo.

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They name Cat.

@ Daredevil

Not a big deal but your list on the last page is 56 cards. I think you forgot the 4 Standstills.

Unlike affinity, I don't own Aggro Loam, but I've been testing around with the matchup and want to open it to discussion.

Anyone else feel the matchup is like trying to fight a dual chambered firearm...with a stick?

Seismic Assault is like Grim Lavamancer on steroids where one life of the loam translates to six damage. Or perhaps this is better translated as 3 separate lords at three separate times. I feel like it alone beats me sometimes.

Countryside Crusher feeds the Assault more ammo while growing larger; not to mention it circumvents graveyard hate.
Oh, and if you're running any splash, there's a high possiblity of wasteland recursion.

I have to devote a significant amount of resources to stopping two mechanisms, land/graveyard "ammo" for Seismic Assault, and spot removal for guys like Countryside Crusher/ KotR/Terravore/Tarmogoyf.
Even more significant resources are also needed to be-rid ourselves of the Chalice that prevents us from using the sideboard spot removal.

Eager to hear your thoughts.

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Originally Posted by DuxDucis

@ Daredevil

Not a big deal but your list on the last page is 56 cards. I think you forgot the 4 Standstills.

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Thanks, fixed :)

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Originally Posted by alderon666

Relic adds answers against decks that use the graveyard. Echoing Truth adds answers against decks that play nonland permanents. In the end it's just a metagame call, if you play all day against Ichorid, Goyf Decks, Life from the Loam decks then the Relic is the better choice. But if you see yourself losing to resolved Jittes, Moats, Humility, and the sorts then the Echoing Truth is better.

Echoing Truth does make your Stanstills better, no dream scenario there. You counter some stuff, they resolve a Goyf, you bounce it EOT and play Standstill on your turn. Seems like what the deck is supposed to do most of the games.

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Didn't actually think of the Zombietokens. But with 3 Relics (perhaps 2 of them main), 2 Propaganda, 3 Spell Pierce SB and alot of hate (Cursecatcher, Stifle, Counters) maindeck I don't fear this matchup alot. Just have to counter Dread Return on Iona.

@luckme: My experience is limited here. I remember it being tough though.

1. In my sb before testing Chalice of the Void, I see opposing Chalices being an issue.

1 Stifle
1 Echoing Truth
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Submerge
3 Misdirection

If he does not have a Chalice in play, BEB is a pretty good answer for Assault and Crusher. Naturally, Relics are good here. Also, Submerge is evil when an opponent cycles a land to dredge up Loam (or fetches of course). But I would have to use Echoing Truth (2 more in the main) to solve the Chalice@1 problem. And Chalice is the real problem imo. Does anyone have a better sb plan than this?

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Originally Posted by alderon666

Relic adds answers against decks that use the graveyard. Echoing Truth adds answers against decks that play nonland permanents.

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No, Maelstrom Pulse gives you answers to decks that play nonland permanents, Echoing Truth gives you a possible 1 turn bandaid for your problems. Unless you play more counters than the average merfolk deck chances are you would have countered the problem permanent before it hit play because your chance of drawing into a FoW/Daze without cantrips + shuffling is small. Much smaller than the time you get to beat the problem enchantment/artifact.

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Echoing Truth does make your Stanstills better, no dream scenario there. You counter some stuff, they resolve a Goyf, you bounce it EOT and play Standstill on your turn. Seems like what the deck is supposed to do most of the games.

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Relic makes Standstill better too. Land a Relic under a Standstill and you just turned the opponent's goyfs into 0/1s and you can now race them with a Cursecatcher. Honestly any card in the deck will "make your Standstills better" because that's how Standstill works.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Finn

Does anyone have a better sb plan than this?

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I use 2 Back to Basics, 3 Echoing Truth, 4 Relics against them. Keeping their graveyard small keeps down Goyf, Terravore, and Seismic Assault win conditions. Back to Basics shuts down their card advantage engine with Loam cycles, and can really screw them over if they didn't get a Mox Diamond. B2B is probably worse in decks that don't run Stifle since fetches give them the chance to get basics and other untapped lands, but I play Stifles. I have Kira maindeck and she shuts down their Terminates/Maelstrom Pulse, which can be quite helpful. Echoing Truth is really good against Countryside Crusher and helps against Chalice@1.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

@Landstill Match-up:

I use 2 Back to Basics, 3 Echoing Truth, 4 Relics against them. Keeping their graveyard small keeps down Goyf, Terravore, and Seismic Assault win conditions. Back to Basics shuts down their card advantage engine with Loam cycles, and can really screw them over if they didn't get a Mox Diamond. B2B is probably worse in decks that don't run Stifle since fetches give them the chance to get basics and other untapped lands, but I play Stifles. I have Kira maindeck and she shuts down their Terminates/Maelstrom Pulse, which can be quite helpful. Echoing Truth is really good against Countryside Crusher and helps against Chalice@1.

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This seems pretty sound. I've also found that bouncing their Mox Diamonds can be a surprisingly good play (as long as you're keeping them off their Loams with Relic or something similar.)

Another thing to remember is that Countryside Crusher can be a double-edged sword for them. If you can come back and fuck up their mana production after they drop Crusher, you can really mess up their development...

As far as splashed builds of Merfs, it seems like white would potentially be able to use Serenity, and also offer spot removal. Sure, it would suck ass blowing up your own Vials with Serenity, but by the time you would want to play it (when they get Seismic online), you should probably have gotten pretty good use out of said Vial. And as long as you can keep them from locking you out with Chalice, it seems like we have good sideboard options against them, whether you're splashed or not.

I agree with Luckme's point that you really have to watch out for Wasteland recursion from them if you're splashed, but this is precisely why I've been thinking of trying to fit in 1x basic Plains into my splashed build... I'd appreciate feedback on whether or not y'all think this is bad deck-building? I would probably cut either one fetch or one Tundra to squeeze it in... probably the Tundra, bringing that down to 2-3 Tundras, I forget if I ran 3-4 in the builds I was testing.

EDIT: It also seems like Threads of Disloyalty could be an absolutely nutty bomb against them.

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

No, Maelstrom Pulse gives you answers to decks that play nonland permanents, Echoing Truth gives you a possible 1 turn bandaid for your problems. Unless you play more counters than the average merfolk deck chances are you would have countered the problem permanent before it hit play because your chance of drawing into a FoW/Daze without cantrips + shuffling is small. Much smaller than the time you get to beat the problem enchantment/artifact.


Relic makes Standstill better too. Land a Relic under a Standstill and you just turned the opponent's goyfs into 0/1s and you can now race them with a Cursecatcher. Honestly any card in the deck will "make your Standstills better" because that's how Standstill works.

EDIT:


I use 2 Back to Basics, 3 Echoing Truth, 4 Relics against them. Keeping their graveyard small keeps down Goyf, Terravore, and Seismic Assault win conditions. Back to Basics shuts down their card advantage engine with Loam cycles, and can really screw them over if they didn't get a Mox Diamond. B2B is probably worse in decks that don't run Stifle since fetches give them the chance to get basics and other untapped lands, but I play Stifles. I have Kira maindeck and she shuts down their Terminates/Maelstrom Pulse, which can be quite helpful. Echoing Truth is really good against Countryside Crusher and helps against Chalice@1.

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If you think bounce is a bad effect I can't possibly convince you that Echoing Truth is any good. It's just a matter of the metagame as I said. I would never play a bounceless Merfolk deck on a field full of Moats and Humility.

Unlike Relic, Echoing Truth is NEVER a dead card. It may not be optimal in every case, but it DOES make your Standstill much better.

Merfolk is somewhat of a tempo oriented deck, and bounce effects fits that strategy just fine. Sometimes all you need is a little bandaid removing the blockers for 1 turn to swing FTW.

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Originally Posted by alderon666

If you think bounce is a bad effect I can't possibly convince you that Echoing Truth is any good. It's just a matter of the metagame as I said. I would never play a bounceless Merfolk deck on a field full of Moats and Humility.

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Are you trying to argue the same point I argued as if I didn't argue it?

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

I agree with the ET statement, it's always been clunky. [...] If you don't plan on playing against decks that have the types of cards like Moat then it might not be worth it. [...] It's obviously meta dependent:

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Awesome.

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Originally Posted by alderon666

Unlike Relic, Echoing Truth is NEVER a dead card. It may not be optimal in every case, but it DOES make your Standstill much better.

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Relic always cycles for :2:. Echoing Truth is as good as dead against Lands.deck, Tempo Thresh (ok it bounces 4 of their cards), Reanimator, Tendrils Combo, burn, and more.

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Merfolk is somewhat of a tempo oriented deck, and bounce effects fits that strategy just fine. Sometimes all you need is a little bandaid removing the blockers for 1 turn to swing FTW.

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And sometimes all you need to do is turn their goyfs into 0/1s to win. And sometimes all you need to do is blow up their recurring cards in their graveyard to win. And sometimes all you need to do is deprive them of Threshold to win. And sometimes all you need to do is remove their dredging cards to win. And sometimes all you need to do is remove their reanimate target to win.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

EDIT: It also seems like Threads of Disloyalty could be an absolutely nutty bomb against them.

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It doesn't take Crusher, Knight, or Terravore. Only bob+Goyf. I think you want Mind Harness (but then again that's putting all your sideboard cards in range of Chalice @1 which you should try to avoid).

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

Are you trying to argue the same point I argued as if I didn't argue it?
Awesome.

Relic always cycles for :2:. Echoing Truth is as good as dead against Lands.deck, Tempo Thresh (ok it bounces 4 of their cards), Reanimator, Tendrils Combo, burn, and more.


And sometimes all you need to do is turn their goyfs into 0/1s to win. And sometimes all you need to do is blow up their recurring cards in their graveyard to win. And sometimes all you need to do is deprive them of Threshold to win. And sometimes all you need to do is remove their dredging cards to win. And sometimes all you need to do is remove their reanimate target to win.



It doesn't take Crusher, Knight, or Terravore. Only bob+Goyf. I think you want Mind Harness (but then again that's putting all your sideboard cards in range of Chalice @1 which you should try to avoid).

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Ok, I see how Relic gives you better games against Goyf and recursive decks. I'm not saying ET > Relic on a general aspect.

What I wanted to point out is that, depending on your meta, playing a deck without MD bounce spell is just horrible. If there are lots of Enchantress and Landstill in the metagame, auto scooping to a resolved Moat doesn't seem sexy.

But I can see how the Relic improves some dreaded matchups. Lands.dec just wrecks Merfolk once they get their engine going. And Zoo, *****, Dredge and any Goyf deck for that matter can't like seeing a turn 1 Relic on the other side of the table.

Greetings, friends and followers of the fish people. It is I, the Lord of Atlantis. I come to you in dire need of assistance. You see, I am a proud warrior and nothing pleases me more than to lead my fellow merfolk into glorious battle. Lately, however, I have been losing my battles against mages who appear to have come forth from a jungle, for I am attacked with a zoo of apes, lions, and other fearsome beasts. While my kind knows no fear, we continue to courageously battle these jungle creatures, to little avail. It is my will that the Seas could spread into their great jungle, but I know not if this is a sound battle plan. It seems my army is at its best only under a standstill. What advice can you give me, great legacy source? Also, I have a potential new recruit who calls herself Thada Adel. Is there battle strategy within these dozens and dozens of pages as to the worth of this warrior? Also, when I come to battle, I am only able to bring with so many side options with which to fight the enemy. What tools will best help to fight these battles?

=={E The Lord of Atlantis

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Originally Posted by Lord of Atlantis

Greetings, friends and followers of the fish people. It is I, the Lord of Atlantis. I come to you in dire need of assistance. You see, I am a proud warrior and nothing pleases me more than to lead my fellow merfolk into glorious battle. Lately, however, I have been losing my battles against mages who appear to have come forth from a jungle, for I am attacked with a zoo of apes, lions, and other fearsome beasts. While my kind knows no fear, we continue to courageously battle these jungle creatures, to little avail. It is my will that the Seas could spread into their great jungle, but I know not if this is a sound battle plan. It seems my army is at its best only under a standstill. What advice can you give me, great legacy source? Also, I have a potential new recruit who calls herself Thada Adel. Is there battle strategy within these dozens and dozens of pages as to the worth of this warrior? Also, when I come to battle, I am only able to bring with so many side options with which to fight the enemy. What tools will best help to fight these battles?

=={E The Lord of Atlantis

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I didn't think this page could get any geekier/nerdier.
Now I know better.

In short:
Tada Adel
Has some targets in the meta, but at her cc for this effect (same cc as your average lord) you can't really warranty some slots for her.

Zoo MU
This is and will always be a bad matchup. This thread contains 140 pages complaints about how bad it is and what you can do about it.
In short: You can dedicate 90% of your sideboard slots and it still will be slightly in favor of the zoo player.
Not unbeatable though.
Just read some pages and make some decisions for yourself what approach you want take to fight this mu.


Also you're on a tournament magic page, where discussions evolve around how to maximize your success quote and what builds of decks help you with that. If you want to go rpg play dragon age or some pen&paper D&D.
I love RPG but your post is one of the reasons why chicks, when they enter a gameshop and see guys playing magic, ask if you guys weren't a bit too old to play those kid's games and start giggling.
I don't know how you feel about it, but I don't need a geeks behaviour for girls crushing my balls which is called my self-esteem.

COIIIIIIID EaD

I thought it was amusing, personally.

In agreement with said points though, you have to sit there and wonder how bad you really want to beat Zoo, and why you're playing Merfolk if you do. It's much the same with Goblins trying to beat Storm Combo. At some point, abandoning the matchup entirely in favor of strength against virtually everything else ever has to warrant a look.

The White splash with 8 Path to Plowshares is your best bet. Next to that you start getting into the realm of strange blue tech, ranging from Blasts to Threads to Misdirection to Submerge to Mind Harness to Kira to Jitte to whatever else. The bottom line is that nothing in this paragraph is a catch-all solution to Zoo, and victory depends on a combination of luck and running a large enough combination of the above.