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Griselbrand is cool, but Jin does so much work in the combo matchups where Big Griz doesn't. As others have mentioned, you really win the game when they have to go off their next turn or die, and you've already drawn 7 to hopefully delay that.
I'll give Griz a shot, but I don't see him taking any spots from my current reanimation team. I like him in Dredge though!
Winning counterwars against High Tide with your 4 FoW/3 Daze suite? Unlikely, especially after boarding.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
Decks running Maze usually play Mother of Runes (looking at you, Maverick), so blocking is not always an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
People who keep saying "Griselbrand doesn't solve the deck's problems" aren't playing their SB games, while Griselbrand doesn't address graveyard hate directly, the fact of the matter is that no creature can do that nor do they need to. However, Griselbrand does downplay Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Dismember, Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast where Jin Gitaxis does not, and by being more resistant to removal you can concentrate on using your disruption on either discarding and countering the opponent's graveyard hate or resolving your Show and Tell. I've cut both Jin Gitaxis and Sphinx of the Steel Wind for Griselbrand, and frankly I haven't looked back since because I've won significantly more games pre-board vs Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Dismember and aggro which means I've had to play less post-board games vs graveyard hate in order to win the match overall.
I haven't had significant issues regarding Force of Will, between Force of Will, Daze, Brainstorm, Careful Study and the odd blue creature you'll have enough blue cards to pitch fwiw, but if you do it's just a question of playing some number of Misdirection, Ponder or Hapless Researcher to bring the U count up.
Edit: Frankly I don't care about the Storm match up, but even if I did care I don't think Jin Gitaxis is any better, and may actually be worse, than Griselbrand because even tho' the opponent has to go off or lose at the end of his turn that doesn't actually prevent him from going off - where drawing 14 cards instead of 7 cards for that Force of Will really does.
Griselbrand is just the best non-bullet creature I've played with in Reanimator, the evasive lifelink + optional hand refill just means he's never bad in any match up that I've played him in where Jin, Gitaxis sucks pretty hard vs Zoo type aggro where you have to follow him up with another creature or die shortly.
Hi it's my first time to post here but I have been reading a lot of this thread as I own a Reanimator deck.
Like Final Fortune I'd really like to test Griselbrand in Reanimator in place of Jin and also add Not of this World to protect Griselbrand from targeted removals and Karakas/Maze of Ith activations for free. This set up reminds me of the pre-mental misstep ban as we usually use Mental Misstep to protect Jin from targeted removals. It will still allow me to use Iona, and try Pathrazer of Ulamog and maybe Terastadon.
I actually have been testing Gristelbrand and sideboard matches and he definitely isn't as amazing as you say. I'm not saying I haven't won games because of him and I'm not saying he isn't good. But I cannot see myself replacing Jin with him. First off cutting the number of blue spells in a deck that plays Force of Will is always a risky idea. Second, it doesn't seem like you've had to Reanimate Gristelbrand ever because you keep talking about some amazing draw 14 every time which is not really reasonable. Third, it seems like you are the luckiest person alive because you've never missed on a draw 14, because that does happen. It's happened to me and I've lost because of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
All of these need to be taken into account. You need to learn from both your wins and your loses and know that odds won't always be in your favor. To me, Gristelbrand is still just a conditional creature. I don't want to be animating him every single game where as I was never unhappy to see Jin in games 1. Games 2 and 3 I usually try for my silver bullet since you don't really have much of a chance to get multiple creatures out in those games. Against Zoo, Jin's draw 7 every turn pretty much means you are getting another creature very soon anyway. And against storm, like I said, you miss sometimes on your draw 7s or 14s. Jin guarantees you to draw 7 against them and if they can't win, they lose.
Right now I would say our deck's biggest problem besides gy hate is Maverick using StP, Karakas, and Maze of Ith. My ideal creature is something that can handle all three of those. Shroud for the most part is your best option here, but as we all know the shroud creatures we have aren't really that amazing. Gristelbrand is just as weak to all 3 of those as any one of our creatures. He's slightly better against StP than Jin, but like I said, he's conditional.
I feel Gristelbrand can definitely fit in this deck. He's good, but not amazing like you are saying. I'm going to go with a 2/1 split with Jin and him unless I'm otherwise proven wrong.
I'm not saying Griselbrand is the second comming of Jesus Christ, I'm saying Griselbrand is a replacement for Jin, Gitaxis Core Augor and Sphinx of the Steel Wind in one card where you're keeping a comparable threat to Jin, Gitaxis Core Augor, multiplying the number of evasive, lifelink creatures in your deck by 4 and not automatically scooping vs Swords to Plowshares.
Ofcourse I've missed off a draw 14, but it's irrelevant, because what matters is whether or not Griselbrand improves your odds of drawing a counter in 1 turn to stop TES from going off in the following turn compared to Jin, Gitaxis Core Augor and obviously 14 cards > 7 cards puts the math in his favor the 50% of the time I play him with Exhume.
Griselbrand may not be quite as good as Jin, Gitaxis or quite as good as Sphinx of the Steelwind in terms of his card advantage or board advantage, but you get more card advantage and board advantage out of having 1 extra "Jin Gitaxis" and 3 extra "Sphinx" and overall you're better off vs Swords to Plowshares - that's a good fucking deal considering STP is on your shit list vs. Maverick.
"slightly" better. I "slightly" disagree with you on the level of slightlyness :smile: I already specified that its (at least) the difference of -3 for -1 vs. a +5 for -1 in terms of card advantage if the opponents swords Jin/Griselbrand.Quote:
Originally Posted by zmattk
And I hope Griselbrand and Jin are able to beat Maverick on a regular basis if the draw7 discard for free happens right? Despite of Maze of it or Karakas.
Beating a chant based storm deck with 4 FoW and 3 Daze is rarely happening. Jin forces them to go into combo mode or lose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I can definitely see Griselbrand as a replacement for Jin in an aggro-heavy metagame, but using combo as a pro-argument...no way.
Slightly is meant as Gristelbrand is better if they actually have the StP in hand. Which is around 50% by the time we normally go off. There's also the chance we have protection in hand at that point. That's what I mean by slightly better. You aren't taking into variance at all; all you're considering is Jin vs Gristelbrand in a vacuum. Also card advantage while it matters in some sense doesn't matter as much to a combo deck. If our "+5" isn't something that can have us go off again then it really doesn't matter much. Last time I checked we aren't really grinding out many games with this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
Like I said, Gristelbrand needs more testing. We need to find a balance between the number of creatures, protection spells, blue spells for FoW, ect. But it seems pointless even trying to get this across to you guys cause all you are doing is pushing 3 Gristelbrand and not even accepting any other train of logic.
4 Force of Will, 4 Daze and 4 Duress if you have the mana are more than enough to give Storm fits when you're drawing them off of 7 to 14 cards, otherwise you'd never Reanimate Jin, Gitaxis over Iona because you don't care about forcing them to go off or lose as much as you care about preventing them from going off especially if it's turn 2+.Quote:
Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn
IF you have the mana. Plus you have to play them in your turn, because Duress isn't an instant. If you don't get what you want out of those cards, you just decreased the needed stormcount by 3-4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
What do you mean by that? That you'd be playing Iona over Jin, if it weren't for Griselbrand (which would require to Entomb for her, which isn't always an option, or to play 3-4x Ionas)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
The fact is, Jin doesn't care about chant effects, while you still need +1 the amount of them in form of counters to effectively counter anything (not taking into account, that they often play around Daze).
I would definitely take the risk of getting "Stormed" after reanimating a Jin with 7 cards backup (vs 7 or 14, the latter won't happen anyway after a Reanimate...which you will need if you want to Duress someone and get Griselbrand online before turn 3), if it means I can win immediately.
I meant if drawing 7 cards and passing the turn didn't have a reasonable chance of preventing Storm from going off then nobody would bother Reanimating Jin, Gitaxis over Iona if they had the choice (Entomb) because Iona's disruption is guaranteed where drawing a counterspell is not. In the case of Griselbrand, drawing a counterspell is just more probable than Jin, Gitaxis because you can possibly draw 14 cards in the same time frame so as long as I can prevent my opponent from winning the following turn the 7/7 flying, lifelink + redraw should be enough to end the game.
In these situations, I'm preferring the creature that prevents me from losing more than I prefer a creature who forces my opponent to try to win or lose the following turn, where both Griselbrand and Iona do a better job of preventing the opponent from winning on the following turn than Jin, Gitaxis.
Even if Griselbrand isn't as good as Jin, Gitaxis vs combo, and even if Griselbrand isn't as good as Sphinx of the Steel Wind vs aggro the point is that he's still "good enough" vs combo and aggro while giving you 1 extra relevant creature vs combo and 3 extra relevant creatures vs aggro, and Swords to Plowshares no longer wipes the floor with your deck.
Edit: Playing around Daze is bullshit if they're going to pass the turn and give me another 7 cards for their trouble, that's a total non-argument.
Again, let me summarize what we have learned so far:
- Jin draws you 7 for free, so you don't have to mind Reanimate, Thoughtseize and Fetchlands, while Griselbrand has to be reanimated with Exhume or Animate Dead to draw 14.
- Jin has Mind Twist, which is huge against Storm, Griselbrand doesn't.
- Playing around Daze is irrelevant, because you expect them to pass the turn? So Jin would win anyway?
- First you say Entomb isn't always an option and then you say you prefer to animate Iona?
So how does Griselbrand prevent you from losing the game more than Jin? This only happens when you can attack, which means Jin would have survived one turn anyway.
As I said, Griselbrand is better against a more aggro-heavy meta, but not against combo.
Of course Jin is better against combo...no question. But Griselbrand is not "bad" against combo like other anti aggro monsters. Griselbrand is a very good allrounder - strong in every matchup.
1) ObviouslyQuote:
Originally Posted by H3llsp4wn
2) The Mind Twist is deceptive, either the opponent will win the following turn or he wont win the following turn, what matters is whether or not the 7 (or 14) cards you draw can prevent the opponent from winning on the following turn because even if the opponent weren't Mind Twisted you'd still be able to beat the opponent by virtue of him not having the cards he needs to go off in hand, a 3 turn clock and sculpting your hand with 7 new cards every turn that passes.
3) I said the opponent can't play around Daze because if they try to do so your board advantage and hand sculpting will end the game regardless.
4) I fail to see how these statements actually contradict each other, yes Entomb isn't always an option, but when it is an option I'd prefer to Reanimate Iona over Jin, Gitaxis or Griselbrand.
Is Jin Gitaxis better than Griselbrand against Combo? Even if I said yes, it's not so much better that I'd play it specifically for the Storm match up when Griselbrand is still enough to win the game regardless and I get 3 more flying, lifelinkers and STP insurance out of the deal.
If he wins the following turn, you will most likely draw 7 from Jin and Griselbrand to have counters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
If he doesn't, he cannot win anymore with Jin on the board, while he still has two full turns to find what he needs with Griselbrand. That's freaking huge against storm (incl Tide).
Yeah, because the need of an extra mana means an autowin. Wait what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Why did you even bring up Jin vs Iona then? I never said I would reanimate him over Iona, but you said it yourself, Entomb is not always an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Even if you said yes? So you don't even think he is better against Combo? :eyebrow:Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Fine, I've had enough of this. Time will tell.
You're being a pendantic ass, as I said before I believe Griselbrand has a better chance of preventing you from losing the game vs. Storm on your following turn because you can draw more cards with Griselbrand than you can draw with Jin, Gitaxis in order to find Force of Will, Daze or Duress to disrupt your opponent in the same amount of time. Whether or not you value not dying on the following turn to automatically winning if your opponent doesn't kill you on the following turn is subjective.
I understand you think that Mind Twisting your opponent is an auto-win, and in the case of Storm that is often the case, but a three turn clock and seven new cards every turn does a well enough job of sealing your position regardless.
If the opponent waits a turn in order to play around Daze, I attack him for seven damage and draw seven cards. Daze is a problem for Storm if they don't have the mana to play thru' it, and Storm can not afford to play around it by waiting to go off when they are facing a Griselbrand.
Finally, I don't really give a fuck about losing a few theoretical advantages vs. Storm compared to gaining 3 more flying lifelinkers vs aggro, that's a really big fucking distinction considering the "combo-control" of Reanimator already does really well vs Storm and has some serious issues vs Zoo and removal.
All you do is reiterate yourself and refuse to take into consideration the benefits of having a more consistent lifelinker on the field and being more resistant to removal, I'm fucking done talking to a wall.
Yup, like you need these "few theoretical advantages" against those decks. :rolleyes:
Take a look at the current metagame statistics and please don't be surprised to see Storm and Tide seeing way more play than Zoo.
btw I've already said Griselbrand is good in an aggro heavy meta, no need to cry.
i thought some decks have chant/silence to just stop you
drawing is not useful then?
mind twist is better than?
Use capitalization please. Thanks. -zilla
Even if Jin is slightly better versus combo, the question is who is better against the big 3 (35%+ of the field): RUG, Maverick and Stoneblade. Griselbrand wins by a mile against those decks due to immunity versus swords and redblast. IMO: End of discussion! :wink: