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The challenge in using Counterflux is the mana cost.
If you have it in your opening hand its already a dead card. Player have to wait for 3 turns / 3 lands to utilize it. Which a lot of things already happened, by the time it is useless.
Then if you have wasteland as your 3rd land cant use it because of the mana color that is required for it.
Then the next challenge is what card to replace it the deck is already tight without it.
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Originally Posted by CranialX
Quote:
Originally Posted by CranialX
Quote:
Originally Posted by CranialX
I agree. If you read my original post, I mention the prohibitive mana cost. Sure you can't cast it off of a Wasteland. I think the third point here is a bit meta dependent. It might be worth the Forked Bolt, Fire//Ice, etc. slots in certain meta games.
It is never dead. Worse case scenario, you can pitch it to Force of Will (No, I am not advocating playing cards just because they are blue. This one fits the goals we are aiming for, albeit at the top end of our mana capabilities.). I don't usually have trouble getting to 3 land with this deck. Sure every now and then I get rough hands and keep a one lander. Point being if you have an opener with 2 colored sources, finding a 3rd shouldn't be hard with 8 or more cantrips. I think it supportable, but sure it isn't a REB, BEB, Dispel, or Envelop.Quote:
Originally Posted by CranialX
It does have two major incentives.
:1: being that it can't be countered (that is a big deal in Legacy).
:2: that it is a hard, non-contitional counter spell. Most of our counter spell have conditional phrase like "unless its controller pays :1: or :2:," or a "non-creature spell," or "converted mana cost 2." Let me be clear about one thing, Counterflux gives zero fucks about what type of spell your opponent is casting, the spell's cost, or if they have open mana. It just counters the shit out of it. End. Of. Story.
I was thinking of it as a sideboard card for combo matchups or counter heavy match ups.
Meh, Counterspell still seems way better if you really need a hard counter. Think of it this way, were you missing a hard counterspell at 3 mana before this was printed? Me either.
Some of the Euro lists sport a Counterspell or 2, but I could only see that being necessary if you were having real problems with patient control or combo opponents. And in that case, I think the prohibitive cost is going to be more relevant than the uncounterability. Overload just won't happen, and it seems unnecessary anyway.
Certainly this is a Legacy playable card, but I don't see any reason for us to run it, besides just the fact that it's "Awesome" and counters the shit out of everything.
For Rug I think counterflux is not solving a problem that was not really there in the first place.
However, I don't think it's complete garbage and might be worth testing. My view on it is that it can be a powerful 3cc answer to a late entreat the angels, jace, or what not, but I would more often just like to have a sulfuric vortex instead of that, because it is not so situational and a powerful proactive threat. Vs. combo I see it way to narrow, since it is slow, only helps against the combodecks countering back and not against overmaster, duress, orim's chant,...
We have tons of counter for combo. I dont think that we should worry about combo. And there is flusterstorm for 1 mana that can go a long way.
It will be difficult for legacy to play this card since wasteland run rampant in the format.
But there is always someone out there that will prove my point wrong. Which I am willing to accept.
I think for RUG ease of casting is more important than the actual power of the card. Compared to Flusterstorm it's not a clear winner in terms of power (each has pros and cons), so by their casting costs Flusterstorm is the clear winner for RUG.
I have noticed people saying things like - it can always be force of willed, but for me, when I am playing my goal is usually to not need to cast force of will. It's card disadvantage reserved for what would be a death blow (a tutor for tendrils) or an impassible obstical (Opposing Knights/Goyfs/Oozes).
It seems to me like a card that I shuffle away or board out more than I cast in most match ups. Brainstorm/Fetch is still a combo for when you are drawing dead spells.
It seems like people make similar mistakes when playing out multiple lands, or replaying some lands after Daze.
I never go up past 3 lands, unless it is for a kill shot and I need more red. Or if it is to play a fetchalnd to shuffle away some brainstorm cards. Additionally, people seem to make mistakes with Daze like that. If I some how do get value from a daze, and I return my fourth land, instead of slamming it down the next turn, I hold it and hop to shuffle it away with a brainstorm.
Does anyone else play force of will/extra lands like this?
I think that's pretty much how all competent pilots play the deck.
Anyways I think flusterstorm does what counterflux does just better. Costing one is a big deal for this deck being able to flusterstorm and then do something else in the same turn is great.
I've seen many people just running out lands, which I thought was wrong. In general I indeed try to hold them to shuffle them away with brainstorm. However, it's not always correct. Depending on the situation, beeing able to play around daze/spell pierce or even hardcasting FoW is a consideration.
Ya there isn't a ton of reason to hold more than 3 lands in your hand, since you can only shuffle 2 back as well.
I think for the most part you can play around most copies of Daze/Spell Pierce with 3-4 lands.
I was more curious about how people use Force of will/Brainstorm. It seems like I almost never cast it. The main time I will use it is on an opposing force of will.
Maybe it is just my meta though, it is somewhat weird with a lot of Lands, and grindy anti blue decks, and the a guy that plays combo where Force is pretty good. Against storm combo, I almost question force of will though. Turn 1 wins are really rare. Between Daze, spell pierce and stifle, it seems like I could probably hold off storm. The obvious problem being decks like belcher that can get the turn 1.
Counterflux seems pretty terrible for this deck. If I wanted to play a three mana counter (which I absolutely don't) I would play Voidslime. The deck can barely support 2-mana spells, much less a three mana counter. The only things that make the cut at three mana are some sort of gamebreaking spell that just win when they are resolved (Sulfur Elemental, Sulfuric Vortex). Even those are pushing it much of the time.
Speaking of uncastable two mana spells, after some more testing I realized that I am just not a huge fan of Fire//Ice. I had too many situations where I was just unable to cast it. I prefer it over Chain Lightning because the burn in this deck is more often pointed at creatures than at players. If you are killing off an X/1, Forked Bolt is a better choice as you can get an extra point of damage in against your opponent. I figure the amount of situations where I win because I got that extra point from Forked Bolt are about equal to the times where I would win off of the extra damage from Chain Lightning.
Managed to Top 8 the StarCityGames: Los Angeles Legacy Open, ended up 3rd after Swiss was done (with a 7-0-2 record)
This was my decklist:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Thought Scour
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
4 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Life from the Loam
1 Flusterstorm
1 Gilded Drake
1 Rough / Tumble
My matchups were as follows:
Round 1 - UWr Stoneblade/Miracles - 2-1
Round 2 - Belcher - 2-0
Round 3 - Goblins - 2-1
Round 4 - UB Delver/Death's Shadow - 2-1
Round 5 - Merfolk - 2-0
Round 6 - Goblins - 2-0
Round 7 - Maverick - Paired down to a friend, he scooped me in
Round 8 - Miracles - ID
Round 9 - Maverick - ID
For the most part, I liked my list. Grim Lavamancer singlehandedly won me games that Forked Bolt (which he replaced) wouldn't have, so I would definitely make sure to include him next time I play RUG. Of course, there is the little dissynergy with Mongoose, but in my experience, when you need Lavamancer, the 3/3 Goose isn't as important and vice versa. Lavamancers did their fair share of entering the red zone too. A Taiga would have been nice (especially with Ooze), and since I'm only running 3 Dazes, perhaps one Taiga wouldn't have hurt.
Also, I'm still a fan of Stifle; it's why I ran 18 land instead of the 19 land that some RUG decks have done for awhile. Yes, Stifling fetchlands is pretty sweet but protecting your own manabase is far more important in my opinion. With all of the Miracle shenanigans too, Stifle certainly helps in that regard as well. I realize, however, that the whole Spell Pierce/Stifle debate is really just a matter of personal opinion, so I'm not necessarily saying that not running Stifle is wrong, but to me, I feel a lot more secure knowing that I have Stifles in my deck.
My metagame has been absolutely flooded with UW Miracles and the occasional combo.
I'm thinking of going with a Caleb Durward-style list with 4 Delvers, 4 Mongoose, 2 GSZ, and possibly a Tarmogoyf.
It's much better against Miracles for quite a few reasons:
1) Goose >>> Goyf
2) Terminus bottoms your Mongoose (which can then be retrieved by GSZ)
3) Gets around Counterbalance
4) Flips Delver
It's also marginally better against graveyard-based decks, since it allows you to search for Scavenging Ooze if you're so inclined.
Of course, it's weaker everywhere else, especially in the mirror where you're just asking for trouble.
Thoughts?
Congrat Ziveeman. Good to see somone from SCG running stifle. So obviously powerful right now!
Concerning lavamancer:
Which situations/games did it won where forked bolt would loose?
I can also think of situations where it would loose compared to forked bolt like for example against a mother on the draw or lackey on the draw with the opponent cylcling incinerator. I once tested 3 lavamancer in the SB to side out Mongoose and was not convinced. It is kind of antisynergistic with the proactive Delver plan. If i play out delver first, the lavamancer might be irrelevant because of the opponent playing mother or ooze. And if I play Lavamancer first it is very hard to advance my gameplan afterwards, since you are behind on tempo and missing the mana to do what rug does (cantrips, counter, threats). It is also antisynergistic with Rough/Tumble which I think is decent against maverick but a very good sideboard card overall at the moment. Also against Tribal mongoose and Goyf are actually very strong and obviously antisynergistic with lavamancer.
Given all that antisynergy I would want lavamancer to singlehandedly win against Maverick & Tribal which is not at all the case
Taiga?
With 14 colored lands I would not go for a non blue source...
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GSZ vs. Goyf:
The delver factor is marginal and I would not consider it as deciding factor. Having more Goose is helpful against Miracles but it does not matter if the opponent can cast a Terminus. Spot removal is not the biggest issue against UW. Against Esper I like to run out different CMC threats if possible to make EE worse. I would certainly miss Tarmogoyf if I have 2 lands and need a fast clock, but the by far most important factor is the mirror as you said lordofthepit. Goyf is the trump there and you want multiples and certainly you don't want to rely on a 3 CMC Sorcery to resolve. :tongue:
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Edit:
What do you think about Electrickery. Not going to the face, dealing only 1 and spending 1R for a "2 for 1" instead of R compared to forked bolt is a downside, but being the 1 mana instant removal for mother, Lackey,... while providing a sweeper for lingering souls, small goblins or maverick dorks for 1R is a big upside. Very often you do not even get the 2 for 1 with forked bolt and the higher casting cost make up for the fact that you can sweep all kinds of stuff. I considered and even saw Simoon played in RUG and this is strictly better.I like the feeling of: "Casting Lingering Souls, Casting Jitte, equip jitte" - Electrickery you...attack for 3. Can imagine running 1 MD replacing 1 forked bolt and 1 in the sideboard (depending how the meta develops of course).
Electrickery seems like a poor maindeck card. Against many decks Forked Bolt is just a bad Shock, but I would rather have a bad shock than a complete blank. Out of the sideboard Pyroclasm or Rough//Tumble is a stronger choice. Nabbing multiple creatures with either one of those usually buys you enough time to finish the game.
@catmint: Grim Lavamancer helped me recover from a mulligan to five against Goblins in round 6. I Forced a turn one Lackey, topdecked Lavamancer, and he never had more than two Goblins in play after that. It also helped me versus Merfolk in the Swiss rounds, allowing me to 1-for-1 Kira and still have gas to kill more Merfolk. Lavamancer certainly does force a different gameplan than what RUG Delver is supposed to do. RUG tends to trade one for one with many decks, which doesn't work against decks like Goblins. Lavamancer definitely helps make up for the lost card advantage.
He's also a good STP target, which in one game allowed me to resolve a Tarmogoyf unopposed and win.
Tarmogoyf and Grim Lavamancer actually don't have any dissynergy at all. I've played the combination in Zoo and in RUG before and it's never a problem since you just pick and choose what you exile. Tarmogoyf is the main game plan against Goblins, so I usually take a more controlling route with Lavamancers and then winning the game with Tarmogoyf. It definitely is a little worse with Nimble Mongoose but I think it's worth having a 1/1 shroud dude sometimes if you can just out-card advantage other decks with Lavamancer.
So I haven't posted in a while, but I've at least been able to play with RUG delver once a month at my local store, and for the last 3 months I've been doing quite well, going 12-0-1 in all the matches I've played. This is what I'm currently working with
4 delver
4 mongoose
4 goyf
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 thoughtscour
4 lightning bolt
2 fire//ice
1 dismember
4 spell pierce
4 daze
4 force of will
1 spell snare
4 misty rainforest
4 scalding tarn
3 tropical island
3 volcanic island
4 wasteland
1 spell snare
1 ancient grudge
1 rough//tumble
1 sulfur elemental
3 submerge
2 pyro blast
2 disrupt
2 tormod's crypt
1 grafdiggers cage
1 life from the loam
I played this 75 at the last of my monthly events, going 5-0 beating omni tell, rug delver, belcher, TES, and then rug delver again. I even went 10-1 in games, only dropping one against the last rug delver player when he had the nuts on the play in game 2, but those hands happen. Otherwise the list I was playing felt fantastic. I was particularly impressed with spell snare. I wasn't playing many, but every time I drew it the card did some really good work. As for some of the main deck cards that don't see as much play, I really advocate the dismember in the main. It just about the best thing to get rid of opposing goyfs in the mirror, plus it can just kill all sorts of things that bolts and the like couldn't otherwise. As for the fire/ice's, I was finding before that there were several games against maverick and other base green decks where i would be one combat step away from killing them, and something like a KotR or an ooze would show up and stop me from finishing them off. In those situations I just wanted to have extra utility then just another burn spell. Plus I've never ever had issues with casting the card, so it's going to stay. I'm almost certainly going to keep playing this deck in legacy, it's just so consistent and always has a chance against every single opponent.
Sure you can use Lavamancer without hurting tarmogoyf sometimes (maybe often), but saying they have no antisynergy is wrong. They do: simple example you have 2 cards in GY (land, instant) and opponent has a land in the yard - you have to shrink your goyf to activate lavamancer...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziveeman
Concerning your example: needing to force a lackey for lavamancer to win the game just shows that you did not win the game because of lavamancer. My approach to Goblins is a different one: Delver (invasion), Tempo advantage (attacking while killling lords), using Stifle wisely & rough/tumble has to be the name of the game. Goblins so own the long game its not even funny and our other control cards besiedes of removal & stifle are very often useless because of vial and cavern. Tarmogoyf & Mongoose are good blockers, but for attacking they look pretty stupid against Mogg War Marshall, Goblin Matron and their sick token generators.
I prepared for that matchup a lot and I am pretty convinced my plan has a hudge edge over a controlling route with Lavamancer. Especially their Wasteland, Port & Relic Package (post-board) hits the lavamancer plan quite well.
A couple of personal observations about RUG:
1. There is no 'best' configuration. There are around 10 or so flex slots that can be shifted around depending on the rest of the build and the expected metagame, while still maintaining flexibility and power against the field at large. This is why cards like Stifle and Spell Snare can either be the nut high or completely miserable. Arguing over which few cards are the best choice is an exercise in frustration, because it really just depends on which decks you are going to run into. To break it down there are a few main deck 'archetypes' of RUG:
A) Anti-Control: Usually runs some number of Thought Scour to accelerate into 3/3 Geese, also typically runs Spell Snare to combat Stoneforge and Snapcaster. Might opt for Chain Lightning as removal 5-6 to try to win an early damage race. Sylvan Library is a great choice here, and Predict has been good for me in the past as well.
B) Anti-Aggro: Runs additional removal beyond the usual 6 in the form of Forked Bolt, Fire//Ice, Dismember, Grim Lavamancer, etc. Might also run a main deck Scavenging Ooze(s) to recoup life loss and outgun opposing creatures. Possibly cuts Daze and/or FoW down to 3.
C) Anti-Combo: Runs Stifle and probably the 4th Spell Pierce, might either reduce or cut the number of Spell Snare since many combo decks in the format don't really care much about it. Also may have cut the creature count down to 11 for additional blue spells, and is unlikely to be running the 19th land. Might even cut some number of removal spells for more stack control.
D) Middle-of-the-Road: Has a balanced approach in terms of card selection, which means it doesn't have a particular edge against any archetype but might not have as many duds in a given matchup.
I have won tournaments and games with every build approach listed above, so I can't really say that one is better than the other.
2. You really need some method of beating the mirror. With RUG accounting for a large percentage of the expected metagame right now, you're bound to run into another guy slinging Goyfs and Geese. Although some would argue that the mirror match is largely based on skill since you're running close to the same 75, I would argue that it's largely decided on luck (aside from cases where a player makes an epic misplay like getting their guy Submerged in response to a fetchland activation). Sometimes you just resolve 3 Tarmogoyfs in a row. Sometimes you get Wasted out of the game. Sometimes they blind flip two Delvers and your removal is on the bottom of your library. With this in mind, I would definitely consider running either Stifle and/or Life from the Loam, as well as additional methods of dealing with opposing Goyfs: either Submerge + Thoughtscour, Spell Snare, a miser's Dismember, etc. Scavenging Ooze is also fantastic if you get into the long game, and I've had varying results with Jace's Phantasm. Based on your 75, figure out the best sideboard configuration for being on the play and the draw. Even so, the match might largely be decided by who won the die roll for game 1.
Very good points. How well your deck plays out depends on so many factors: metagame, luck, sideboard, amongst many other things that you've mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
In regards to the mirror, I've seen some builds with hidden gibbons in the sideboard. A 4/4 creature survives bolt, beats fast, and one mana. Against combo decks it's a very fast clock too.