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Antknee42,
Well of course I'm jealous; I'm going to be spending around a grand just to attend SCG Open next month, and have been talking about a "window of opportunity" for dredge, because of the recent absence in re-animator and dredge decks, all week. I'm livid, dammit. lol
Very sincerely,
Matthew
The only thing I agree with is that Careful Study, and to a lesser extent Faithless Looting, is the best draw card in Dredge. I spent a lot of time proxying Careful Study and Breakthrough back and forth, and Careful Study was usually enough gas to win the game. What really matters tho' is that you don't have to SB Careful Study out, ever, and unlike Breakthrough it can search for answers to hate game 2. The post-board utility of Careful Study is more important than the "overkill" of Breakthrough, and what really worries me about these "balls to the wall" decks of LED + Breakthrough + Cephalid Coliseum + Sphinx/FKZ lists is that they litterally need to board out around 10+ cards with other MD cards like Cephalid Coliseum losing utility as a result and skimping on gold lands is going to cost you games post-board.
People are getting really greedy game 1 with a ton of MD cards they can't transition out of post-board vs an opponent who is prepared for Dredge. Not having any answers to Surgical Extraction thru' being able to SB into redundancy is going to definitely bite you in the ass and not 4xing Thug and Ichorid is just stupid if you're not planning on actually playing out game 2/3.
I'm also kind of on the fence about Angel of Despair being in SBs, because frankly it's only really good at picking off random shit like Ghostly Prison and you can't reliably count on it game 2 if they SB in any graveyard hate. I mean why would you bother to SB it in game 2 when you could just SB in Grudge/Ray, because they pretty much do the same thing without you having to have an unmolested board and grave to try and pick off random jank. I actually find myself MDing Angel of Despair game 1 and SBing it out game 2 because it's an unreliable waste of space, which makes a lot more sense to me.
I still hate Imp/Tribe and Coliseum, but I think I've beaten that horse to death.
I personally like it better whenever the meta is well-prepared for Dredge - that makes it more of a challenge. I find that winning a game after going through graveyard hate is much more satisfying for me when compared to winning game 1 - you expect to win that game anyway. Having said that, I agree with those that have stated that we would be spending our time more wisely by preparing for the worst - which is game 2/3 loaded with hate. If the worst doesn't happen, then we should win anyway :smile:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Cheers,
jares
How many lands does a LED list need to avoid excess mulligans? I'm currently on 13, but I'm trying to convince myself to cut SOMETHING for another rainbow land. However, what that something is is really hard for me to tell at this point. Here is a list for reference:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Having 10 Gold Lands in the MD gives you a 74.14% chance of getting at least one in your opening hand - going up to 11 raises your chances to 77.76%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Annatar
Personally, I would cut the 2nd DR, especially because you're not running any DR targets in the MD anyway. On second thought, because you're running only 3 Ichorids, cutting the 12th Dredger might be a better idea. Another option would be to cut either a Breakthrough or a Careful Study, given that you're already loaded with draw effects (I would personally lean towards keeping the Careful Study over the Breakthrough). The last thing that you could possibly cut is the 4th Cabal Therapy, but that won't really do well with your build because you can't go full combo without MD DR targets to get you there.
I hope that helps.
Kind Regards,
jares
Jares,
At this point I think cutting Breakthrough might be better, since I was planning on having the full playset in my 75 anyway. Also, it might make sideboarding against certain strategies slightly easier. Apart from Cabal Therapy Dread Return is my only sac outlet so I feel it is important to hit at least one to seal a game, either by reanimate-ing a huge troll or just an Ichorid for more zombies.
I remember that the list that placed well in the recent SCG tourney also had a Breakthrough in the SB - I'm not sure of how your SB is constructed, but having those in the SB would probably mean that you won't be packing too much anti-hate. You'll need to have a good read of the meta to maximize the remaining SB space - snooping around would certainly help :wink:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Annatar
Good Luck,
jares
1st of things my list I brought to Ohio
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Faithless Looting
1 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Breakthrough
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkeweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Dakmor Salvage
Sideboard
4 Firestorm
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Nature's Claim
1 Dread Return
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Angel of Despair
3 Leyline of Sancitity
After recently jumping back into legacy (I've played dredge pretty much forever), and getting back into standard I played last weekend in ohio
Some notable things about my list is 0 Careful Study's. I simply could not find room for them at all. I decided going into the tournament that faithless looting would suffice. I also insisted on Breakthroughs because I did not want to be cold to storm. I also personally love the card because it helps fight against those mb oozes that I saw all day.
A key in flash-backing looting back was the ability to dredge a dakmor salvage at first site.
Although this may seem weird only having one because a majority of games you usually will only have 1 land in play, However it was critical in fighting all the hate. Even with one land I was able to cast Golgari Thugs to recur my Narcomoebas to keep up when my opponents extracted my Dredgers with a snapcaster draw when I missed dredging into a therapy. Being able to cast the Thug was tremendous.
Also To explain the 1 Undiscovered Paradise is that my logic was that it was simply another Gemstone cavern. In all situations I was able to deal with the Paradise's drawback, but
I could never deal with 2. Thats why I kept it as a one of because I never wanted to see 2. It could easily have been a 3rd Tarnished Citadel.
I ended up losing to a terrible misplay g3 against nickfit round 6 on turns, when i had the game in my hand. (seeing dredge win to kicked me further in the balls, but there's no way I
could realistically beat the LED version with Leylines to boot), while my other lose was to a walker deck with enlightened tutor. Getting caged turn 2 into humility--> Jace was pretty brutal.
However playing against cage the only thing that I wanted was a sacrifice outlet because untill they draw their second piece of hate I was able to get on with my day job and hard-casting
Thugs to get in the red zone.
Firestorms came in handy, all day thanks to goblin guide revealing the top card of my library g3 (Revealing a Firestorm) sealed the game in my favor.
I never played Burn/Storm despite playing 3 Leylines. They're were at least 10-15 people playing burn, and X amount playing a affinity variant. However after playing
I'm pretty sure that I want Leyline of the Void simply because Beating the LED Version is next to impossible without it.
I've been thinking lately about ways to fight the cage, looking back through the thread I saw Ingot Chewer (With his friend Wispmare), but this still requires sacrificng the golgari thug
in order to gain access. I'm still stumpted in finding a way to bring it back except when I can bring in firestorms (Ex: Affinity with the cage). The only way thing I could think of is Greater Gargadon. But he seems even more narrow than a nature's claim
Angel of Despair was pretty useless as well. It was handy that I was able to remove it to recur a ichorid but I still think I want another dread return target besides the super
grave titan, and Elsesh Norn. I think if I remove the leylines I would Add a Ancestors Chosen, But I'm not sure I'd ever want to bring that in against zoo/storm. I know for a fact
that one dread return mb was enough, and I liked being able to board out 2 therapy for a additional dread return and a target.
For those of you boarding Iona do you bring it in against what other decks besides storm.dec? Is it just good enough against burn as well?
I also did not play against affinity during the entire tournament, It is indeed a race and ancient Grudges in the board would help the matchup. However It would be handy to bring in against
the stoneblade decks instead of the 2 Nature's Claims, but my logic was that Firestorm was enough. Is this logic true?
Is Darkblast a viable answer to the ooze? I know that Yixid Jailer doesn't really exist, but the problem is would you keep darkblast in against the stoneblade decks as well as a
additional answer if your don't dredge into a therapy? I'm not sure where I would find room unless cut a Ichorid, But my reasoning for 4 is because usually players don't like to
surgical him for the reason that they like making they're paths/swords effective. The only other way would to move a breakthrough in the board and reducing firestorm down to a 3 of.
I really enjoyed my list, and even if it's a little old school I managed to win against Maverick with the ooze, A knight into bojuka bog along with his crypts.
So to sum it up for sure in the board I know I'd like
3-4 Firestorm
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Nature's claim
1 Dread Return
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 (Dread Target)
3-4 Leyline of the Void
I like most of these numbers because the only cards I boarded out were either 2 Therapy and 4 Breakthrough or X amount of Ichorids in a non dredge matchup.
I just don't see anything being boarded out besides the one dakmor salvage which I did bring out once.
Thanks for the read,
@ Annatar: I would cut a DR and I would also play 4 Breakthrough. Especially with LED it's too good to pass up imho. I'd start cutting Putrid Imps before Breakthrough in LED Dredge.
@ Hunter: I would really try to make room for Studies. Especially if you're not even running LED, Study is better than Lootings anyway.
Something different. In your guys expierience, what is the most frequent target if you get Surgically Extracted? Dredgers or Narcomoebas/Ichorids?
For me it's by far the Dredgers, which is why I had the idea to play 4 Street Wraith in the sideboard and board them in for other draw spells against Snapcaster-Extraction decks. In the short testing I did against RUG Delver it was a huge blowout for him every time I had SW in my opening hand. Instead of having 4 Trolls extracted you get to Dredge 6 and it can't even be countered.
However, this 'tech' doesn't do anythingif your opponent just waits for Ichorids/Narcomoebas and starts extracting those, so it all depends on that. I'm not sure if this tech has a future, but as I said it can be huge sometimes. What do you think?
I have been examining this tech on the side too and it's actually really nasty in a lot of circumstances. Street Wraith is a card that can act as protection - in addition to acceleration. The problem is making space in your sideboard, which can be difficult. It's actually really nasty with cards like Study and Looting, because you can just draw into a Street Wraith, dump your dredger, pass, have it Extracted, and respond by basically playing a spell that functionally reads:Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
Street Wraith - 0
When you cast Street Wraith, pay two life or Street Wraith is countered.
Street Wraith cannot be countered by spells or abilities.
Counter target spell that targets a card with the Dredge mechanic in your graveyard, return that card to your hand, then dredge for that card's amount.
Okay, so Stifle and Trickbind hit it, but that's neither here nor there. It still seems really good - especially on the draw.
As for Careful Study being better than Looting, I would have to strongly disagree. Under most circumstances, you're going to have a rainbow land in play, and both cards effectively do the same thing - with Looting having the ability to interact disgustingly with LED. I am, however, running one Study in my build (as previously mentioned) to assist with Cephalid Coliseum.
You're right in that Lootings is better than Study in LED Dredge, but he didn't play LED and w/o it I honestly believe that Careful Study is way better. I might have expressed myself wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
In that respect I would agree partially, if only the fact that Study costs a Blue - with that benefit outweighing the benefit of corner-cases where you actually have the mana to flashback a Looting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
So I'm pretty much playing Prosak's main list, except I go -1 Careful Study, -1 Faithless Looting, -1 Darkblast for +1 Golgari Thug, +1 Cabal Therapy, and +1 Ichorid. The same explosive build with a slight tweak towards resilience, considering we're back on the radar. Regardless, the current meta is pretty slow.. mostly aggro-control which we can out race all day long.. which I've been doing on cockatrice. lol This build also allows us to legitimately race AdN and TES, and 4 cabal gives us a chance against belcher and crazy stuff like that.. The only complaint I have about this list, which has already been mentioned, is siding; If you have a lot of slots devoted to answering hate, it's nearly impossible to side them all in with such a tight build.
You know my MD list, as I'm sure Prosak's list is common knowledge at this point, but take a look at my side and tell me what you think should be minused and plused when siding, and make sure to give specific examples of which deck or hate you're siding for.
1x Woodfall Primus
1x Chain of Vapor
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Firestorm
4x Nature's Claim
4x Memory's Journey
Much appreciated,
Matthew
And you should add:Quote:
Street Wraith - 0
When you cast Street Wraith, pay two life or Street Wraith is countered.
Street Wraith cannot be countered by spells or abilities.
Counter target spell that targets a card with the Dredge mechanic in your graveyard, return that card to your hand, then dredge for that card's amount.
Okay, so Stifle and Trickbind hit it, but that's neither here nor there. It still seems really good - especially on the draw.
Some people really don't know, that they can stifle/trickbind your Street Wraith! That's important, too!
Btw, i'm actually working to build a more like manaless version with some lands to get a useful sideboard against gravehate.
I will test some things and change some things and post my list after good results.
K1w1
Okay, as I mentioned earlier, I really think Hollywood is on to something by increasing the number of threats in the deck. I felt like it did not have enough draw effects, and have been tweaking it and trying several ideas, and this is what I have come up with.
Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
Creatures
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
3 Nether Shadow
Draw Spells
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
Other Graveyard Goodies
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
Other
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
Sideboard
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
4 Breakthrough
1 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Angel of Despair
Now, this is a huge step into uncharted territories for me, because I'm not only not playing with FKZ main, but I'm only playing with ONE DR! I feel like this deck should be able to grind out any match up, and is explosive enough to compete with storm game one by therapying away their hand quickly enough, then recurring lethal damage next turn.
Basically, I feel like Breakthrough is a card that is not needed in the main for most match ups. We have enough draw outlets with basicly 12 careful studies that breakthrough is for the most part overkill and I feel that the 4 slots are better used as +3 Nether Shadow +1 Ichorid
The maindeck and board are completely untested (outside of goldfishing), so suggestions are most definitely welcome.
Good idea Izor. 90% of the Extraction targets are Dredgers (and the other 10% are Bridge from Below). I've never had an Ichorid extracted, I don't really know why. The Street Wraiths seems good on theory. I'll test it to confirm.
@Hollywood What about that Tortured Existence build? Bring the list on, so we can bring some ideas and tune it.
For people who are not familiarized, it envolves playing Street Wraith and Golgari Grave-Troll under the Tortured Existence shell to avoid permission.
Vandalize,
That's funny because they always go for my Ichorid's.. Don't get me wrong, I still like the idea, but it can definitely go either way.. In my opinion, Extracting the threats is generally correct. I mean, how many threats is there in a standard dredge deck? Bridges, Ichorids, maybe DR... Hitting one can easily stall us long enough to Snapcaster or just Extract another, which makes us dead in the water. Once again, don't get me wrong, I can definitely see the merit in Extracting dredgers, I'm just saying there are definitely several ways to look at it, which means people packing Extraction will be playing it several ways. That being said, we can probably find a way to play/side with Street Wraith in mind. Less Ichorids, more dredgers or something.. Still doesn't prevent them from hitting Bridge though... Would also make our job tougher with less threat density. Idk, just seems like a lot of work for a situational answer.
I disagree with cutting Dread Return based on not playing dedicated Dread Return targets, Golgari Grave-Troll and to a lesser extent Phantasmagorian, are more than enough to justify 2xDread Return.Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
Playing less threats in hopes of enticing an opponent to Extract a dredger could easily backfire, if they get an opportunity to Extract a threat. This is all just speculation, but it seems like either decision is pretty bad. Either you guess at wether or not your opponent targets threats or dredgers, or you alter your MD accordingly, which can backfire..
I'm well aware that the Street Wraith tech in the sb is far from perfect.
It's just that people have tested a lot of stuff to fight the dreaded Snapcaster-Extraction combo, but in my eyes nothing really solved the problem. I mean if you face a Leyline, you try to find your Claim and kill it. That's what you call a solution. Against Extraction we have things like Memory's Journey, Coffin Purge and Purify the grave, but let's face it; they're not good. Too often they extract your only Dredger and you Purify it in resp. Great deal for them, they still get the time to find another Extraction. You know, I hate that our 'solution' to a hate card is actually something that hurts us as well. Some people might even board Purify against us, which shows how bad it actually is for us. Ground Seal is another option that I've tested, but it's surprisingly hard to resolve a CC2 spell against those blue decks and you have to board DR out entirely.
So in the end I was somewhere between not doing anything about it and just hope for the best (which still works regularly), or trying to find something that solves the problem while actually helping our own game plan instead of destroying it. That's where the idea came from.
In my testing I've found that this strategy works best in a build that actually still runs Tireless Tribes and a DR package, because those make you less dependent on your Ichorids/Narcomoebas.