Wow. That's actually true. Never would have thought of that. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
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Wow. That's actually true. Never would have thought of that. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
great post.
maybe it's a krenko effect? a new staple could have pushed people into the archetype? it was not my case, but I can see it happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
I really like this, makes total sense to me. This also explains why I am no fond of Rishadan Port altogether, I'm fond of tapping my goblins.Quote:
A 2/1 split seems right to me as well. But I think it all depends on how you set up your deck. I have found playing with traditional 14 Red Sources + 8 Mana Denials route with 3 Chieftains + 2 Krenkos extremely difficult, even though it looked good on paper. I had a very hard time to get the second Red Source, considering that Cavern oftentimes gets eaten by Wasteland. However, 3 Chieftain + 2 Krenko is awesome with 16 Red Sources. The two extra Mountains does make a huge difference. This route is also more aggressive, which means I can forgo the control route. If I want to play the traditional route with 14 Red Sources + 8 Mana Denials, I would only play with 1 Chieftain. Since Krenko really loves that haste, while SGC is indifferent, it is better to have SGC. TLDR:
Agressive Route (w/o Winstigator)
12 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Wasteland
3 Chieftain
2 Krenko
1 SGC
Control Route
10 Mountain
4 Cavern
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 SGC
1 Krenko
1 Chieftain
But between Krenko and SGC, the one I'd rather cheat into play from a Lackey as early as possible is SGC, so my list actually run 2 copies of each. I know it's no big deal, but still more consistent play than playing a singleton and having to search for it.
Exactly the same situation happened to me when using rite of flame in a list with 4 cavern of souls. I don't really like the idea of dropping wastelands, so I guess mana acceleration comes at a high price these days, and I sure won't be paying it.Quote:
Also, if the opponent does not have Wastelands, the Control Route can use 3 Chieftains and 2 Krenkos without much issue. But ignoring Wasteland is pretty silly. I still need to work on my Winstigator List. My old list use Rite of Flames, but ever since Caverns came out, Rite of Flames has been quite inconsistent. And I had never liked Chrome Mox. I will probably forgo mana acceleration altogether.
More of Cavern of the Souls pulling people than Krenko IMO.
two more tidbits, before this topics get old:
@progenitus: I've been wondering about Phantasmal Image for a while. Seriously, having the option to copy any goblin in play except for Krenko sure could be nice, while also having the ability to kill a legend if needed. You could play it from a Volcanic (which I actually don't have :cry:) or you could also play it from a Cavern on Illusion.
I know, I know, suboptimal, and yadda yadda. But still it's an answer if this protection from everything gets too noisy in your meta, and it's also in a good color for solutions overall.
@sideboard: all I know is that I'm playing 4 Leyline of the Void. The rest shifts, I've had 3 Krosan Grips, 3 Chokes, 3 Perishes...
By the way, I've seen Pithing Needle a lot in this topic. Is it a must? Does it solve the matter or does it get you some extra time?
last but not least, I just wanted to point out how great a cavern on goblin can be for a Tin-street Hooligan, even if your Taigas are nowhere to be found. Just tap Cavern for green, you are using it on a Goblin anyway... am I right?
I think Phatasmal Image is grossly underrated in Legacy, but idk Goblins is where it should be pushed. The cipt effects are great to copy though, so considering the Blue splash the card should certainly be tested.
Out of curiosity what's up with the recent move to Leyline of the Void the past couple months? I've always ran Tormod's Crypts and/or Faerie Macabre, but have been seeing mostly Leylines in placing lists.
On how to dedicate the 2-3 'finisher' slots, I'm leaning towards 2 Krenko, 1 SGC. SGC is more explosive off a Lackey, but Lackey connecting in general is usually going to generate too much tempo advantage for most decks to come back from.
Opposing graveyard decks (dredge, reanimator etc.) expect us to bring in artifact based hate since we're not playing black. So when they sideboard, they're putting in Ancient Grudge or some similar anti-artifact card to force you to pop your Crypt/Relic on their terms. When you drop a Leyline instead, they often don't have an answer in their main deck, which significantly alters/stops their overall plan. In fact, some Dredge players (here in the US anyway) don't have any outs to Leyline by design since it's not a very popular choice in the meta (go figure)...so sometimes a turn 0 Leyline is just a free win.Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
That said, I prefer grave hate that I can actually cast/use in the middle to late game should I draw it. I don't want to have to try and mulligan into a Leyline, and I certainly don't want to draw that 2nd Leyline later on. I've been packing Relic lately (sometimes useful against RUG and other non-dredge decks). I'd probably pack some number of Faeries if there was more reanimator in my meta, but thankfully Relic has been enough if I run into the deck.
@davran: Dunno, but the Dredge players I know of ALL play the full set of Nature´s Claim in their sideboards, so it doesn't really matter if I play enchantment- or artifact hate.
Right now, I'm playing a split of 2 Crypts, 2 Relics and 2 Extractions in my sideboard. Probably too much and I will take at least 1 Crypt out, because Dredge and Reanimate isn't played too much in my area anymore, but so far I really liked having access to those cards. Don't like Leyline myself, because taking mulligan over mulligan just to have one in my starting hand is quite bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
Lots of love for Prospector. Question: do you ever Matron for him or is it just all about randomly drawing into him and hoping the board state supports his use? For instance, if you were trying to deal with Jitte, wouldn't you Matron for a TukTuk instead? If you had Krenko, wouldn't you want a Chieftain or SCG instead? In general, wouldn't you want a Ringleader?Quote:
Originally Posted by ScatmanX
Observation: Pyrokenesis seems to be the non-goblin-shaped removal of choice these days. Goblins has placed highly at the last three weeks' worth of SCGs (Krenko is showing up frequently!). Most ran Pyro as its main deck or sideboard removal spell of choice. We seem to be firmly in mono-red territory; gone are the Perish, Ruins, and Plagues of old. Bolt and Tarfire also seem scarce. Thoughts, opinions, conclusions?
Sometimes I do search for him, but you have to be in a great position, or with another gas-goblin on your hand. Also, he's better when Warchief is online too. It allows lines of play where you can Matron for it, cast it, tap Krenko, cast Ringleader, sac the tokens to cast whatever goblins you get. If you need to go fast, he's quite good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Talanos
I'll have a tournament this weekend, and will try to right down whenever he shows up at random and when I Matron for him, for us to discuss later.
About removal: Knesis is certainly the most powerful and has the widest range of them all. Not costing any mana is a big plust too, meaning we can disrupt other agroo decks without slowing us down. Also, is the best I can think of against Maverick. That makes the go-to removal spell for me.
If the meta changes, maybe some other card can take it's place.
Phyrexian Metamorph is another option.Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
Costing three to cast does not seem like much of a downside, as it would be more of a mid or late game play.
Vialing in on four seems more likely. At least for me, I usually aim to keep vial at three.
Bonus points for shattering a Jitte.
I have some problems with bringing in GY hate in small numbers against decks that don't really rely on the graveyard as much. The problem is that if you run non-Goblin-cards in your SB as a 1- or 2-off you are unlikeley to draw them at the time when you need them. Let's take your example of boarding cards like Faerie Macabre and Extraction against Esperblade:Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
The problem in this MU is early Stonefrogs -->equipments and Lingering Souls (those cards are quite literally their ONLY winning conditions. If you bring in extraction effects (that only steal 2-4 Spirit tokens) you better draw it at the time when Lingering Souls is in their GY. If you draw them AFTER they flashbacked Lingering Souls the card in question is quite dead on your hand until they cast ANOTHER Lingering Souls (or Snapcaster). In this situation they have already produces 6 Tokens (which is usually all they need). ABout Snapdude: "countering" Snapcastermage's ability isn't too effective IMO. As you can see: drawing Extraction effects NOT at the right time sucks. Therefore you need at least 3 pieces of Extraction in your deck after G1. This is fine, of yourse, if you have enough cards too board out, but usually I have trouble siding out Goblins for situative non-Goblins (like Extractions/Macabre). Plus, at the end of it all your graveyard hate does nothing against the bigger problem: Stoneforge Mystic. And that's why I wouldn't bring GYH (aka. Extractions) at all.
The same is true for Maverick (graveyard recoursion, but do you really want Extractions here?).
The other "graveyard recoursion decks" are Dredge and Reanimator against which I find Leyline waaay better that extraction effects.
The only deck where Extractions effects really ARE worth boarding AND are better than Leylines is Sneak Show. However, I highly doubt that extractions make the difference here, since the deck can usually fight through much more than that. I personally just accept the SNeakShow MU as being a coin-flip (who is faster: the constitant aggro-deck or the inconstitant T3-combo deck?)
It'S possible that I'm overlooking something - in that case I'd like you to tell me in which MUs you want to bring in Extraction effects.
The problem with trying to copy Goblins with CIP effects is that your Vial is likely already ticked up higher than 2 to cheat those creatures into play. That means you need the Volcanic Island or you need to drop those creatures with Lackey and then Vial in the Image when Vial is at 2. Seems like a lot to ask from the deck especially when you consider that you can't draw Image off Ringleader. Image is probably the danger of cool things and will sit dead in your hand unless you have that Volcanic Island.Quote:
Originally Posted by from Cairo
About GY-hate:
I'm also playing Leylines at the moment and I am satisfied with them.
Surely the problem is to mull into it. But on the other hand, if you would have done it, you often would have won!
No deck is able to do something against a turn 0 Leyline. Nature's claim has to be in opponent's starting hand, otherwise we have about 2-3 more turns to fight for the win.
What is the best time, to draw into Crypts, Extractions and Macabre? Against Dredge there is none. If you draw one of them in the early game, the Dredgeman can play around it. If you draw them in the midgame, the best card would be Crypt but often comes to late.
If you draw them in the latgame...forget...there will be no lategame.
Against Reanimator: Someone don't want to mull into Leyline? So he/she has to mull into Macarbre/Extraction becuase you need them in the first 8 cards. Also Extractions can be countered. So it doesn't metter into which card you have to mull, does it?
The question isn't "What is the best GY-hate?". It is: "What GY decks will I am gonna play against?"
Dredge? -> Leyline
Reanimator -> Leyline / Macabre
Sneakshow -> Extractions / Extirpates
ANT -> if you need something, take Macabre
In my opionion it doesn't make sense to do things like a 2/2/2 split. You always will get the worst card against your opponent. Than better don't board and start with a Lackey. Or mull into the hate, but than often Leyline will be the answer.
Last words: If you think, the matchups are a coinflip and you don't want to mull into hate, take a fast opening hand and overrun the opponent. Often this is better than mull into something.
It is often not bad to mull and go down to X. It is often more bad to keep hands and hope to draw something or to hope not to die so fast!
So I hope, I get it all right and you regret my English. I could write books about cards like Leylines or Pyrokinesis in Goblindecks :wink: But I often can't say everything I want in English (maybe have to ask GoboLord to translate my words :laugh:)
Why are Extractions so good against SneakShow? They're of no use when they Show and Tell their creatures into play nor when they put them into play with Sneak Attack. If Emrakul attacks you're screwed anyway and a Progenitus that attacks once from a Sneak Attack isn't the end of the world. Only if they play Intuition it might be of some use but most lists play only 2 and the one from Ghent none. I'd rather put in a couple of Pithing Needles against Sneak Attack or maybe even nothing at all. Unless I'm missing something essential here I don't think that match-up warrants boarding Extraction/Extirpate since its uses would be too random .
In the Leyline discussions I always miss one aspect of discussion. And that is that there are also decks where you might only want to side in 1 or 2 graveyard removal. You can't do that with Leylines. That's why I always prefer other non-leyline graveyard removal so I have more options.
I also don't like having to mulligan if the hand is otherwise very acceptable to keep, then I'd rather take my chances and draw into graveyard removal. I also don't think one can flat out argue that mulliganning into a leyline means you've won. Maybe if you're lucky enough to only have to mull to 6 but what if you have to mull to lower cards in hand? Then you're opponent has plenty of time to find an answer before you can put any pressure on.
I currently play with relics as they deal with goyfs and mongooses, and they can also be used as GY hate, plus they cantrip.
However they are slower, and I used to go with leylines of the void for speed, but relics do the job against goyfs which as i play removal is important for my list in my meta.
Are we right now just accepting losing to Show and Tell Decks?
Extirpate and Extraction as our grave hate could do at least some splash damage here.
If we start again playing more MWM we could try 1/2 Badlands + some fetches and play 4 cabals in the side to fight all sorts of combo.
IF we squeeze one Earwig Squad in the side, we could perhaps do some harm in addition to either Thorns or Mindbreak Traps. Perhaps Thorns, because they are better vs Show and Tell.
About Relic: It everything right about it. At the GP day 2 there were the first times nowadays, I lost against RUG Delver but it didn't depends on Relics. There were no situation in which they would have won me the games.
All other gemes about RUG, I won by playing Goblins, remove there Delver and playing Chalices. So I will not gonna play Relics in this matchup and would say, we don't need them (only my opinion).
@unicorner: Why do we accept the loss? Against Show and Tell into Emrakul we have Matron, Ringleader and Stingscourger. Against Sneak Attack, we have our own speed. To make Therapy effective, you always to play t twice by sacc a creature. Do we want to do it, when our opponent only have to counter it or play a Brainstorm? Against other Kombodecks like ANT, all the years, I didn't think Therapy did have done a good job.
Squad: I love this card. But against GY decks it is to lame. It is nice against UW or Esper but not against Show and Tell and other!
If you already have a hastelord out, Krenko is also pretty good vs S&T into Emrakul.
Their good because sometimes they don't have a combo piece on their hand when you Prowl him. That means, they either have SnT/Sneak on their hand, or Grizle/Emrakul. You can discover that by counting the ones on their deck. Making they need to find one of 5 cards to win, is better than making they find one out of 8 to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pee-Dee-2
@Grave-hate discussion: I like having 2 Relics at least because their awesome against Canadian and Maverick any given state of the game. They don't deal with ALL their threats, but they cantrip, making you don't waste a card.
And I like splitting because I don't usually mull that hard into hate. If I'm against Dredge and have Lackey + some removal + gas, I'll probably keep. Same as against reanimator.
I'm curious to test Phyrexian Metamorph. It not being a goblin is not really an argument for me right now, since we are running 34+goblins nowadays, which is a quite high number. It is cool against Emrakul, Grizzle, Jitte, and well, is synergistic with our own deck too. Will give it a spin.