Brainstorm, jace, ancestral, ponder. Basically blue decks. It's been good in proxied testing, but maybe it's a "win more" card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapson
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Brainstorm, jace, ancestral, ponder. Basically blue decks. It's been good in proxied testing, but maybe it's a "win more" card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapson
for budget considerations, you can play spirit of the labyrinth. it's more fragile, but it's fetchable via ET
I've been toying with the black splash and found kolaghan's command to be quite useful. Shock and shatter are always useful and get around chalice and cb cmcs pretty often and the discard and resurrect effect are handy in a pinch, although I've never come across an inn game state that needed those two modes. And it costs a shit ton less than chains, so it's budget and win win
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I ended up cutting it myself. It wasn't bad but I never tutored for it. I always had bigger hate to tutor for. I cut it for the one copy of the PKN. That card ended up being really good in my testing, especially against elves.Quote:
Originally Posted by itrytostorm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
Spells kite has actually been huge. It's easily as good as welder in my opinion. It's also amazingly good in some MUs such as infect and burn. Don't think I would ever drop it at this point.
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I'm a little surprised chains has been doing well tbh. Spirit of the Labyrinth would be the closest thing I can think of on a budget, but I don't find that we lose to jace and ancestral decks that often.
@DRude1 would you mind posting your current 75? I don't really have time to test the black splash and work with my board before DC.
Speaking of DC, who all is going?
I will be there but I don't know what my list will be like yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapson
I am planning on running this list in DC:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapson
// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
1 Badlands
3 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
1 Marsh Flats
3 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Plateau
// Creatures
2 Goblin Welder
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Painter's Servant
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spellskite
// Instants
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
// Enchantments
4 Blood Moon
// Artifacts
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
4 Lotus Petal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Assemble the Legion
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Helm of Obedience
SB: 1 Pyrokinesis
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 Trinisphere
Dat manabase...
How do you like command and only three recruiters? And no ssg either. What exactly are you prepared for? Just ingerested in another's take on the rwb version
Well, here is the list that I've been playing:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mapson
// Lands
3 [ZEN] Mountain (3)
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [MR] Great Furnace
1 [UNH] Plains
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [V12] Ancient Tomb
1 [B] Badlands
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [B] Plateau
// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
3 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
2 [JGC] Goblin Welder
1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
1 [TSP] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 [NPH] Spellskite
// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
4 [IA] Pyroblast
4 [CH] Blood Moon
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
2 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
3 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
3 [THS] Magma Jet
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [M15] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [MMA] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [EVE] Duergar Hedge-Mage
SB: 1 [C14] Containment Priest
SB: 1 [GTC] Assemble the Legion
SB: 1 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [RTR] Slaughter Games
SB: 1 [ORI] Pia and Kiran Nalaar
I am still playing 3 burn spells in the main (magma jet) and if you wanted to go a little more traditional, you could exchange those with the typical things that I've moved to the side, such as revoker and engineered explosives. I've actually cut Magus of the Moon completely for now, as the only MUs it is good in is BUG and 12 post. Most delver strategies these days though are running red for lightning bolt and then magus is just bad. Still, I don't know if it is right to cut him completely. I was running him in the board for a long time and then cut him to make room for the black splash and he just hasn't gotten back in. If I were to leave my burn in the SB, I would probably run sudden shocks, as they were really good when I played them. I've just found that Magma Jet in the main is never dead, especially now with Miracles more dependent on wizards and Mentor for the win. Jet obviously also helps you get to your more important cards. My thoughts were that the true point of the deck was to assemble my combo and I wanted to stream-line that objective as much as possible. Between 3 recruiters, 2 (+1 in SB) tutors, 3 tops and 3 jets, I'm usually able to get my pieces together in a timely manner.
I would also consider playing a couple copies of K.command as my burn choice in the SB, as that card just has so much utility. I might reconsider my mana base though, as just being able to cast 1-2 black spells in a game is hard enough when you are keeping moons in, and typically you want to be using your burn pretty early in the game for stoneforges and deathrites. I've found that the black mana doesn't come around that easily as I have it built now.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar (can we come up with a shortened name for this card? PKN? Lovies?) has been good so far (very surprisingly) and I'm going to keep running it for a while.
As for the black splash, Slaughter Games and (again surprisingly) Engineered Plague have definitely earned their spots in the games I've played. Chains was okay and typically good in the MUs where I brought it in, but not necessarily so good that I would ever go tutoring for it. The biggest reason I liked it was because it felt like it was taking away the cantrip advantage that the majority of the field has on this deck. The opponent always felt like they had to deal with it and many players just wouldn't play their cantrips with it on the board, and I don't even know why. People would just show me a hand full of ponders and brainstorms at the end of games. If your general strategy is more controlling, then it is REALLY good. I've been jamming the combo more recently and then the card just seemed like it was getting in the way a little bit.
I will not be going to D.C. but good luck to everyone else going. Would love to see some Painter in the top seeds.
p.s. as to why no monkeys, with the black splash, you need to maximize your petals, and then I wanted to add the 20th land to stabilize the mana base a little. Also, with no Magus and Moons being more of a calculated play, I didn't feel like I needed as much of the acceleration. I do miss the surprise factor a little though.
It's basically drude's list with small tweaks. I like the splash a lot and don't think it's too terrible on the mana base. No SSG's is a blessing and a curse. Being less turn 1 moons, but less awkward top decks. My magus could definitely be changed, as can the command. Command did help me beat chalice on one and get a painter back, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
I've not 100% set on a list yet. Doing last min testing tonight outside of DC.
I also like the WBR decklist, but I'm considering going a different dirrection on petals, a direction that has both pros and cons... that I am going to explore some tonight during last min testing...
Mox Diamond
Yes we don't really play enough lands to suport a playset of Mox Diamond... but why does it need to be a four of...
Maybe this just isn't worth it... but as you both have found, the mana base is pretty shakey about getting the third color. In a few reps testing last night (with petals) I found it a little awkward to have to decide between Turn 1 Moon (which isn't as good as it was a year and half ago, but still pretty good against the field) or holding back for Enlightend + W or B card. Also not wanting to fetch for a Scrublands to get E Tutor into Black Enchantment was also awkward (I don't think we want to play Scrublands).
I'm not sure this the the right path, because frankly there is a good list of drawbacks, but it's also IMO worth messing around with on my part tonight to see how it goes.
Pros: Can Moon them Turn 1 and still have Non-R Mana next turn. Gives the route of Turn 1 Blood Moon into 3 Mana on Turn 2. Every so often it can get Lands out of your hand for Bridge purposes.
Cons: It's a worse late game top deck then Petal. Pretty questionable with welder. Requires more lands to function (thought I'm considering 21 lands and 3 Mox Diamonds... which IMO is living on the edge...)
Not sure about Commands but with a "better" mana base maybe it's a good idea. It's a strong, strong card. Finding space will be the hard part.
Looking at the following 75 currently... again subject to change without notice.
// Lands
4 [UNH] Mountain
3 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [EXO] City of Traitors
4 [TMP] Ancient Tomb
1 [3ED] Badlands
2 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
2 [3ED] Plateau
1 [KTK] Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [PROMO] Imperial Recruiter
1 [PROMO] Goblin Welder
1 [PD2] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 [NPH] Spellskite
2 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
4 [TMP] Grindstone
4 [ICE] Pyroblast
4 [MMA] Blood Moon
1 [STH] Ensnaring Bridge
2 [MIR] Enlightened Tutor
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [STH] Mox Diamond
2 [LEB] Red Elemental Blast
3 [Promo] Lightning Bolt
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [MIR] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [LEB] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [NPH] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [5DN] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [M12] Manic Vandal
SB: 1 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 [GTC] Assemble the Legion
SB: 1 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 [GTC] Illness in the Ranks
SB: 1 [Promo] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [RTR] Slaughter Games
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
I'm considering a move from Lightning Bolt to Sudden Shock becuase of the Token Producing Creatures running around, and a lot less must deal with 1 drops / Toughness 3 creatures floating around. I still like being mana efficent though, so... maybe not.
I might want to shave a Imperial Recuiter for the 7th MD REB or Eithersworn Canonist or Engineered Explosives main. So I guess the question is what's better... the Forth Recruiter, the First Ensnaring Bridge, the First Ethersworn Canonist, or the 7th REB?
So real list of considerations that I am going to try to nail down tonight are
1) Are Diamonds a Painter's Best Friend, or a terrible idea
2) Should I run Eithersworn Canonist or Engineered Explosives main over Ensnaring Bridge
3) Should I shave a Recruiter to add one of the 2 forementioned cards or the 7th REB effect.
4) Commands, Lightning Bolts, or Sudden Shocks (I don't think we want 3 commands...)
Also thanks to Drude because this is basically your list with a few small tweeks.
1) I don't think diamonds are good.Quote:
Originally Posted by GundamGuy
2) 1 Ensnaring is a must in the main.
3) I like the 3 recruiter/ 3 reb split.
4) 1 command is sweet, Sudden shocks should probably be your other burn.
5) Why manic vandal and illness over hedge-mage and plague?
Ensnaring Bridge is a fine card, but things have changed a lot from when it first started being put in the main deck, and I'm not sure in the current meta that I'd rather not have something else in the MD slot. Keyword is not sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by itrytostorm
Manic Vandal is personal preference, but I feel like Hedge-Mage is margional better at best and at worst higher varriance. What enchatments do we even care about? Is it worth risking the competely random times that Hedge-Mage is a 2/2 with no abilities for 3?
Also I'm planning to run both Illness and Plague, in the board. I think we have room enough post board for both...
PPS: I really have no clue if Diamonds are good or not, so I'm going to put some reps in and see how it goes.
There's still quite a few matchups bridge is the best stall card in. I won a match over the weekend versus merfolk simply due to it. TNN would win otherwise. Granted postboard you'd bring in the plague and what not but winning a G1 with a non blood moon card is nice.
Not to be mean, but this thread is filled with so much stupid right now.
Most of these suggestions increase variance to an unacceptable level, especially over an event that is more than the local 4 round tournament. Destabilizing the mana base is the complete opposite direction unless you are completely increasing the explosiveness of the combo. Painter without a moon plays a terrible control deck and every card choice should be made with a plan to get you to the combo kill or moon lock out. The bridge is a necessary evil due to the mechanics of the win condition. If you are dicking around doing stupid shit I promise you that you will not fair well with this list.
Most of these bastardized lists can not hold up in a developed meta. I have stressed it before, but the focus on the deck should be speed and consistency. Anything else is a fools gambit.
My two cents. Hopefully Jack will weigh in
Seth
I agree with a lot of your sentiment, which is why a condone running cards such as magma jet which not only solves some immediate problems, but also finds your combo pieces or tutors for your combo pieces. Having said that, everyone is well aware of our bad match-ups and the black splash is very good at plugging the holes in those MUs. I certainly do not advocate cutting blood moons. But in MUs like Omnitell where blood moons are just not good, the black splash is very good at helping that MU. As far as testing, I am currently 15-1 between dailies and my local legacy scene (which I consider extremely competitive) and have honestly never had more success with this deck (other than the 9th at SCG open I guess) than with this current build.Quote:
Originally Posted by sroncor1
Having said that, I also encourage people to not over-step the black splash. As for mox diamond. I tried playing with one copy instead of the 20th land for several weeks and thought it was really bad. It constantly got stranded in my hand. I think you would really have to up the land count to make it worthwhile.
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Yep.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
Also: Never ever cut a Land for a Mox Diamond, and don't think of Mox Diamonds as replacing lands, they are more like SSG or Lotus Petals, but do totally require you to up your land count.
Edit: Also it never actually has to be stranded in your hand. As much as it sucks to get no value out of it (Or less then the full potential) it can be played with no lands in hand, in which case it goes directy to the Graveyard... so it's not like it's going to keep you from hitting zero cards behind a bridge.
I really like the Helm/RiP combo as a backup plan with E-Tutor. Am I the only one? If more veteran pilots think it's a waste, I'd like to hear it.