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I played 4 Scullers between main and board over the last few months and never ran Vials.
I'm playing in a small tournament for Forces this weekend. If I don't find the remaining cards for my new Wizards list (3 Volcanics and a USea... ugh.), I'll probably be running Deadguy or Esper Deadguy. Any thoughts on which is the best sword now?
I'm not really sure where to post my list as basically I'm playing a blue splash deadguy. It's similar to this deck so I'll just post it here for discussion. Here's the list:
4 Bob
4 SFM
4 Snapcaster
4 Mom
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
4 Stp
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Ghastly Demise
4 Brainstorm
4 Hymm to Tourach
2 Vindicate
4 Wasteland
4 Scrubland
3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
9 Fetch
1 Swamp
Basically the blue splash is for brainstorm and snapcaster. Why play the 3rd colour? Brainstorm IMO is what stands between deadguy and other superior midrange decks. Brainstorm gives blue decks consistency and is a unique effect that deadguy cannot replicate (top really isn't that efficient). Ever draw too much discard and have them sitting dead in your hand when your opponent has nothing in hand but he is ahead in board position?
That's what brainstorm can help with, fixing mana screw/floods and shuffling back chaff. What I like about snapcaster is that he is ideal in this type of deck. In a blue core deck (force and dazes) snapcaster cannot reliably recast force/daze, so the number of snaps you can run is limited. Also snapcaster works best in a deck with equipment so he becomes a legitimate threat and not just a coral merfolk.
There are 14 1cc cards snapcaster can target in this deck and also 4 2cc ones in Hymm. For those who have experienced it, double hymm is absolutely crippling and Snapcaster really helps up discard/removal density. That's why I find him better than say Serra Avenger/Jotun Grunt/Tidehollow Sculler/Phyrexian revoker. These creatures are narrow, they are just good against either aggro or control/combo. Snapcaster is both excellent against aggro, control and combo while upping your creature count and potential equipment carriers.
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivanpei
YES.Quote:
Also snapcaster works best in a deck with equipment so he becomes a legitimate threat and not just a coral merfolk.
I've been testing a UBr Wizards deck with Snapcaster, a small faerie package (Sprites/Cliques), Bob and Lavamancer and the issue is that nothing is a threat without the 2 random equipment (Jitte/SOFAF).
I'm going to run this tonight at our testing session with the following changes:
-1 Fetch
-1 Snapcaster
-1 Mom Runes
-1 Thoughtseize
+1 Elspeth KE
+3 Serra Avenger
Sideboard I haven't decided on but I figure it will have at least 6 cheap counters (Pierces, maybe Counterspell?) for combo, at least 3 Perishes, another Vindicate, and probably Scullers.
Edit: After thinking about it some more I don't think I'll run the Avengers. I am going to cut 1 land for an Elspeth though.
I won the locals yesterday with the following list:
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Swamp
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Plains
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Senseis Divining Top
3 Bitterblossom
1 Umezawas Jitte
1 SoBaM
1 SoLaS
1 Batterskull
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
And I still DONT think Vial is the way to go.
I like your list, but it lacks 2 Unearth Maindeck. Take Mother of Runes out and insert some Tidehollow Sculler to take greater advantage from the ETB triggers.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
I ended up playing Ivan's list with -1 Mom, IoK, Fetch, Tundra, +1 Plains, Elspeth, 2 Unearths. Pretty happy with it but I'd like to get a sword in there somewhere.
Seems this deck isn't dead after all. See list below from this link: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=50153
Deck Name: B/W Stoneblade Position: 4
Deadguy Ale Daniel Potter Sideboard
Creatures [25]
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tidehollow Sculler
Instants [4]
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sorceries [6]
2 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
Artifacts [4]
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands [21]
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Fetid Heath
2 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Scrubland
Sideboard [15]
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Path to Exile
2 Perish
1 Retribution of the Meek
2 Vindicate
Interestingly, it seems that this deck didn't play any chrome mox and vials and went straight to aggro instead packing disrupting creatures like Mother of Runes, Revokers, Tidehollows and Aven mindcensor then using strong hitters like Mirran Crusader. Sideboard looks good to utilizing the ET package as well. Looks like the old DGA Vial deck with no Vials to me.
Any other thoughts?
Deadguy was never dead (pun unintended).Quote:
Originally Posted by paladin3056
Because Mental Misstep is out, Deadguy doesn't really want Chrome Mox anymore, and can play more 1-drops. Counterbalance has not made a return (yet?), so Aether Vial is not needed either. A simple yet elegant build I must say.
I saw the last game of his against Team America where he lost against geting his land wasted and Snapcaster being a badass. Cant say im a fan of karakas, show and tell is alot weaker now with alot faster combos in the format. Without mental misstep in the format, Thoughtseize is once again one of the strongest spells in the format. I like his version, fan of Mother of Runes. She makes game math alot harder for the opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by paladin3056
I went 6-2-1 at the Starcity Open in Indianapolis ending up 23rd with a BW list. I have subsequently decided on a light blue splash for Snapcaster Mage. I had a lengthy description of my card choice reasoning typed up but the interwebs decided to delete it and now I'm too lazy to retype it. Here's my current list:
4x Thoughtseize
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Vindicate
2x Hymn to Tourach
2x Esper Charm
4x Dark Confidant
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Serra Avenger
2x Snapcaster Mage
3x Aether Vial
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
4x Scrubland
1x Tundra
1x Underground Sea
2x Swamp
1x Plains
4x Marsh Flats
4x Polluted Delta
3x Flooded Strand
SB:
3x Perish
2x Path to Exile
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Spell Pierce
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Serenity
1x Planar Void
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
The Deck is very streamlined and has been very consistent for me. I'm still testing the 2x Esper Charm//Hymn split but I have to say so far I haven't once wished that the Charm in my hand was a Hymn instead. I also like Vial as a 3 of, because it is always trumped turn 1 by Thoughtseize and I never want to see multiples of it, but when I do stick one it is often crucial for my tempo. (And Tidehollow+Vial is just stupid good.)
This list I posted on the previous page was what I ended up running at SCG Nashville, to 6-2 and an 18th place finish. Only changes I'd make are probably cutting the last two Serra Avengers and going all-in on Mirran Crusader, and swapping Perish in for Ghostly Prison in the board (Perish would have changed the outcome of at least one of my losses).
There was never a point when I wanted Feast and Famine over Body and Mind, or Thoughtseize or any other "real" discard, let alone any sort of third-color splash :)
brought a similar list to a tournament and failed with it... I don't think im such a bad player however...
with 21 lands 4 vials
all creatures were 2 cc...
and the only spells I needed 3 mana was for 3 vindicates and the equipments...
Relying on serra avenger as the only win condition is also probably a mistake on my part..
I often found the deck mana hungry...and always wanting my 3rd land.. and 4th...mana drop
Im not sure if its because there is so much 2 cc spells or what... or if its because I mostly faced aggro decks...
The deck felt really slow....but I also felt it was capable of winning any match ups....
I guess that was my main concern, lack of win conditions and its quite slow..
Howdy! Thanks for the kind words on my list for Starcity Nashville.
A lazy, late and hasty report follows:
Placed fourth out of 169 last weekend with W/b Stoneblade. List here.
Basically I went in expecting a field of High Tide, Tendrils, Ichorid and Merfolk. I ended up facing these decks zero times, but had a fun day and made $850, so no complaints!
In the wake of Mental Misstep’s banning I had thought about incorporating blue into the deck I placed 9th with in Atlanta, possibly sans FOW in the vein of the James R. Bant deck that won the Grand Prix.
In the end I went with the assumption that it’s easier to Thoughtseize correctly than cast Force of Will correctly. Think about it: Hymning yourself to get ahead is hard! I also opted to just let Hymn and Gatekeeper go because I figured getting BB and BBB would be hard if I was serious about casting Mirran Crusader. The end result I didn’t even shuffle until we were underway. Ha!
R1
Heath was playing Natural Order/Show and Tell. G1 he wins the roll and has an early Hierarch. I mulled to five but turn-two a Phyrexian Revoker naming Hierarch, and on turn three Heath is sad. A subsequent Wasteland into Sculler reveals I have indeed crushed his hopes and dreams of a T3 Natural Order.
G2 He manages to get Jitte on a 3/4 Goyf, at which point he kills a dude and goes to 4/5, enabling Retribution of the Meek to solve the board. Discard keeps him pinned down and off his combos while I smash him down.
2-0
R2
The mirror! Whaaaat?
Game one takes a half hour and climaxes in an epic board state as I have Revoker, Bob, Stoneforge and two Moms versus his two Phyrexian Crusaders and like a Stoneforge, and we both have Sword of Feast and Famine on the board, plus he has Jitte. I keep Momming up something carrying equipment to get in, and my opponent can’t swing back effectively because I’m moving gear to untapped guys and leaving Revoker behind to shunt his pro-white, pro-black Crusader’s protection and in turn get protection of its own via Mom - no Jitte counters sir! Eventually the card-advantage from keeping Bob alive just smothers him, but it was close: a couple times I had to remember to peel Jitte counters of my own for insurance life before revealing to Bob.
At some point my opponent also wasted one of his Vindicates by forgetting what Mom does, which didn’t hurt me.
G2 I keep a loose hand, he Hymns away my white source and thusly steals game two with poison counters. Game three ends in a draw befitting the mirror. Nice opponent!
1-0-1
R3
Played against Dustin, a friend of a friend I’ve split a few rooms with. Dustin is hilarious and addresses me as “Witch” all the time. Incidentally I am wearing a SkeletonWitch shirt and Dustin loves Jesus. Yep.
He is with Esper Counterbalance today, and we both mull to 6 when Dustin declares “Oh you’re getting raped!” I then mull to four and keep a hand of Fetid Heath, Vindicate, Aven Mindcensor, Mirran Crusader.
Dustin plays Island, Top, and then spins on one land for a few turns while I hit runner-runner lands into Aven Mindcensor on three. By this point Dustin, still stuck on one, has had to discard a Dreadnought I think. He remarks aloud he’s not sure whether or not he cares, clearly holding counter, and lets Mindcensor resolve.
He then finds three fetchlands and whiffs on all of them. At some point I make him counter a Vindicate and maybe stick a Wasteland on Underground Sea? The whole time I’m like “In for two.” “In for two.”
Basically that Mindcensor tips some very awkward luck in my favor.
I don’t remember game two at all except to say I think Mirran Crusader was rude and Dustin was not happy.
2-0-1.
R4
Nice opponent in Bant, he finished 9th. List here.
I almost mess up game one as we have an awkward ground stall and I can’t seem to find a fourth land to go Jitte Equip in one go, even though I chose Jitte with a Mystic! I tell him I am going to make a weird play, him knowing Jitte is in my hand by choice, and I play another Mystic to get Batterskull, which proceeds to solve all my problems. Game two is helped when his Meddling Mage names Swords to Plowshares, which is in his hand but never mine. He cracks in for awhile double-exalted but I stabilize with equipment and I think a late Perish salts the wound.
3-0-1
R5
Raul is playing Snapcaster BUG and game one he shreds my hand with flashback Inquisition of Kozilek and my Thoughtseizes feel real lousy by comparison. This game takes like a half hour and I end up getting ground down by a Snapcaster that does probably 14 damage. I don’t remember much except game two I got double Mom via Fetid Heath on T2 which made Raul’s spot removal hate life, and G3 was very close and may have been in turns when I just barely managed to kill him thanks to huge card advantage from Bob breaking a topdeck war, and I think Sword of Fire and Ice pushing me over the top in the nick of time. Aven Mindcensor also kept him one mana short of what he needed for what would've been the clutch Pernicious Deed. Another very nice and entertaining opponent!
4-0-1
R6
Chris Van Meter
U/W Stoneblade, eventual 2nd place finisher, list here.
He plays an early Stoneforge for Batterskull, but I keep him off cheating it in by naming Stoneforge with Revoker. Life is good until I attack said Revoker into a Mutavault, d’oh. I maintain relative parity for a long time with two Moms, but probably make a mistake in trying to just race Chris instead of murdering a Jace that sat on five counters and Brainstormed probably four turns in a row. Somewhere in there I also played Mother of Runes like it was 1998 and tapped blockers don’t deal damage. If you think that’s bad you should hear me bitch about wanting damage to stack so I can 2-for-1 people with Qasali Pridemage...
G2 he sticks an Elspeth and I respond with my best impersonation of this right here.
Super nice opponent, and also mega humble when I asked about life as an alléged professional.
4-1-1.
R7
Adam is playing Zoo and forgets to attack me with his T2 Pridemage, then taps out without using it, affording me a window to actually STP it and thereby keep some equipment out. This all proves costly for him, as at one point this game I am on three life, meaning if he’d remembered to swing he would’ve taken it. Instead I eventually stabilize my life with Batterskull and win.
Game two takes too long and I also lose. I encourage Adam to play faster and more sloppily because our two decks should really really not be starting game three with less than ten minutes remaining, but there we are. Looking back I was probably brusque over not wanting to wind up drawing in extra turns; I hope this did not hurt old Adam’s feelings, as I have known him since about 2006.
Anyway game three he forgets I have Mother of Runes on the board a couple of times and loses a couple of burn spells this way. I manage to find a Mirran Crusader and smash all in during extra turns #2 and 4 with like Mom and Stoneforge and stuff to squeak enough damage through. I was at enough life to happily not use Swords to Plowshares on his Knight of the Big/Big, as doing so would’ve given him waaay too much life to get there with my last possible attack.
5-1-1.
R8
Win and in. Drew is a nice guy who ends up 16th with Imperial Aluren, list here.
I have the discard and the dudes to keep him from ever seeming too close to combo-ing out. I'm definitely just smashing in with Moms as I'm confident removal isn't my main concern from him. But I can’t remember quite what his kill-mech is so I let a Revoker sit in my hand about four turns while grinding him out. Answer: should’ve named Cavern Harpy and ground him out faster, but I got there.
G2 he mulls to four. To salt the wound I have E.Tutor for Canonist and Sculler his Repeal. Sorry dude.
6-1-1.
In the top eight I vote to split, because betting double-or-nothing $325 on the assumption you won’t get screwed is like surfing in trunks made of steak: just asking to get bit. Anyway I believe my opponent declined, and you can read about that costing him here:
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...raves_vs_.html
When reviewing my decklist he asked what Retribution of the Meek does. I told him it kills Tombstalkers and leaves Mirran Crusader intact. Sorry, is that rude?
7-1-1.
In the top four we agree to split and I am suddenly able to Vial in three car payments ahead of curve. $_$
Then Todd Anderson rolls me 2-0; his list here. If you caught it live and thought I played sloppy as hell, you’re right.
I guess Revoker could name Pernicious Deed against his board but whatever, Todd is definitely a tighter player than me and good for him; he was a very nice and fun opponent and maaad patient even when I was busy making illegal plays and getting warned. So good for him and Chris.
Thoughts on my 75:
My manabase needs tuning. Urborg is cute but rarely relevant. The fishy dudes are all awesome. I’m not in love with Batterskull but sometimes it just batters a bunch of skull while gaining you like 8 life and making racing seem miserable for the opponent. I often boarded out whatever piece of gear seemed least relevant and the fourth Mystic, and often boarded in Vindicates. Not having at least one Engineered Plague to tutor-up post-board feels like a mistake in retrospect. It’s tempting to say a Thoughtseize or three could be replaced with Inquisition because the lifeloss gets scary and Sculler also hits whatever else you’re scared of, but how that split skews someone else has to figure out. I NEVER WISHED I HAD AETHER VIAL OR CHROME MOX OR BITTERBLOSSOM.
Props: everyone from Murfreesboro who reminded me not to have too much fun and instead win. Sterling for retrieving pizza. This: ! <---This list right here. I knew I hadn’t been smart enough to figure this approach out on my own.
Slops: I'm trying to talk less shit these days, friends. Play a bunch of Magic and freak out, okay?
Nice report.Quote:
Originally Posted by danpo
You say you never missed having Vial and then link a list with four of them? Are you planning to change to that next or saying that is what you based your list on?
Nice report.Quote:
Originally Posted by danpo
You say you never missed having Vial and then link a list with four of them? Are you planning to change to that next or saying that is what you based your list on?
I linked to the list from SCG Charlotte that played E.Tutor and Vial because I was a bigger fan of that 60 in May and June than seemingly clunkier lists packing weird numbers of Rituals and Chrome Moxes in hopes of resolving everything from Mirran Crusader to Phyrexian Obliterator. Awk-ward.
At the time playing Tidehollow Sculler seemed like an offbeat choice over Hymn to Tourach, and maindeck Revoker struck me as strange, but I built that list and had grand fun with it for awhile, then put it on the back burner to focus on G/W Maverick for a couple months, and still had it in mind when I came back to W/B. So! Credit where credit's due, hence that link.
(G/W is what convinced me to switch from Serra Avengers to the Mindcensor/Crusader team btw.)
Anyway yeah I like the idea of being able to name Vial with Revoker, and mana issues aside I like the way my list top-decked, and I think it's plenty susceptible to Pernicious Deed already, so I guess my bottom line is no, I'm not planning on reverting to Vial this minute.
Since I can't get to the linked site at work I'm goin to assume that the list you linked is my T8 list from Charlotte. I'm glad it was an inspiration and led you to good things. Obviously it wasn't perfect since there were very few people that took the list seriously until I did well with it, and even then it seemd to be plagued by naysayers and bad pilots.
If I start playing Magic again I'll definitely be looking closely at the differences between the two lists. I do like Mindcensor quite a bit and think he's really good for this style deck.
Thanks for the credit.
So My question is. How is the matchup against control decks like bugstill, ub control, and uw control with snapcaster? Next question If the matchup is poor what can be used in the board to improve the matchup? For instance would vial improve the matchup against control. I know I have a lot of different questions but I am a maverick player and am looking to be able to play a creature based version of this deck.
Im playing an Vialless Version of this deck with 4 Thoughtseize 4 Hymn etc. and as creatures 4 SFM 4 Bob 4 Nighthawk 2 Jotun Grunt and rest some removal und equipment stuff and Bitterblossom.
I didnt have any problems with any Controlmatches before Snapcaster came, didnt play DeadguyAle since the release. I dont know if it changed much but they were all somewhat favourable.
we have a bit of a bad matchup with control decks because we play a 1 for 1 game, as do they but we have nothing as high impact as jace. there are three ways I have liked in testing to deal with this problem but none of them involve staying strictly B/w
1. Red splash (a single plateau will do if money is tight) gives you access to pyroblast which is amazing.
2. blue splash, as discussed above a blue splash for snapcaster, brainstorm and if you really want mana leak is quite powerful as our snapcasters are better than theirs (snappy + force = bad snappy + hymn = amazing)
3. green splash. The addition of 1-2 green sources to play 3-4 copies of knight of the reliquary (NOT GOYF) can allow us to have more high impact spells so as to end the game much faster. do not use tarmogoyf! a big dumb beater is the last thing we need! the difference between 2 and 3 cmc shouldn't be too relevant in the control matchups anyways.
As for fighting it in just straight black white it can be done but is very hard. you need to go ultra aggressive with targeted discard getting rid of their powerful control elements (free spells, board wipe, jace) and then use one or two high impact creatures (SfM, bob) to gain a ton of advantage. we beat these deck by beating them at their own game. card advantage is king and we can make tons of it