All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I guess it's the understandable reaction to building a deck and it taking a serious hit with a banning shortly after. Stopped modern after the second ban-everything-that-can-be-used-in-combo-or-control round

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Exclusing the Legacy staples like Ooze, Goyf, Abrupt Decay, Bob, Liliana, fetchlands, Thoughtseize, etc, Modern Rock is really cheap to build. Like, you need a couple Dismember, a few $7 shocklands, and some narrow $2 Modern sideboard cards. I don't understand why you'd want to sell off Bobs, Goyfs, Lilis, fetches, Thoughtseizes, Oozes, etc just because you can't play Rock in Modern anymore. It doesn't make any sense from a financial standpoint, nor from a Legacy standpoint.

gosh i was hoping to have tnn banned.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Yeah I wish they'd unban some things to add some diversity to the format, I'd really like to see Skullclamp come off the list in order to make Goblins, Elves and Affinity stronger in the metagame.

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Skullclamp is never coming off the banned list.

Skullclamp. Out of all things. Skullclamp?! Chances are you never played with it. Normaly that would be fine but not for Skullclamp. The card is so absurd, we're actually coming close to the very outter limits of Magic once we touch that card.

I really wanted to get into modern for several reasons, but these hamfisted bannings and forced format shaping has totally killed my interest.

I mean, you can't reasonably expect a decent format where Goyf, Bob, Clique, Delver, Geist, Nacatl, Snapcaster etc. are free to roam, yet Preordain is banned, Counterspell is considered broken, and all the spell-based combo decks are banned. I mean, not to be an elistist but is it really that better to lose to twin t5 than lose to grapeshot t4?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

We still don't care for control or combo to be a healthy part of the modern metagame.

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Control in the form of UWR and GR Tron are competitive and represent a fair portion of the meta. Combo in the form of Twin, Scapeshift, Living End and Ad Nauseam are competitive as well.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

You miss the point: powerful cards like LED, Brainstorm, Wasteland, Force of Will, Dark Ritual and S&T are the reason people prefer Legacy over formats like modern. Its like entering Vintage and complain that a broken card like Gush is legal and available as a 4-off (I remind that vintage is defined by restrictions and not bannings so picking cards like Tinker isn't an adequate example)

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It's all about where you draw the line. Gush isn't legal in legacy but, if it was, you could bring up the same argument to keep it legal. Doesn't mean the format is healthy.

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Originally Posted by Kage

I really wanted to get into modern for several reasons, but these hamfisted bannings and forced format shaping has totally killed my interest.

I mean, you can't reasonably expect a decent format where Goyf, Bob, Clique, Delver, Geist, Nacatl, Snapcaster etc. are free to roam, yet Preordain is banned, Counterspell is considered broken, and all the spell-based combo decks are banned. I mean, not to be an elistist but is it really that better to lose to twin t5 than lose to grapeshot t4?

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If you're uninterested in Modern, great, there's a format that can satisfy your Magic needs... it's called Legacy. Why do Legacy players insist on trying to make Modern into Legacy-lite? Why do Legacy players cry about not being able to play Ponder, Dread Return, JtMS, etc in Modern when they can just play with those cards in Legacy? Why can't Legacy be Legacy and Modern be Modern?

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

So after playing the format for a month, I just got booted out of Modern. Great. Anyone want a worthless Rock deck? I can not even be bothered to strip it for parts, I am just going to sell it whole and move on. Lesson learnt, stick with Legacy.

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I'm not sure I see why people are going so extreme in saying that BGx is dead in Modern... I think time will show that it's not, but I'm sorry for the big ban to your deck.

I'm pretty sure Wizards has no idea how Legacy works. Why the heck won't they unban some cards like Earthcraft?

+1 To Arsenal's last comment.

Also, if you don't play Modern don't fucking post about it, you make yourself look stupid and waste everyone's time by having us read garbage.

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

I'm pretty sure Wizards has no idea how Legacy works. Why the heck won't they unban some cards like Earthcraft?

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Wizards doesn't care about Legacy. I thought that this became clear to the community since they tightened the Reserve List policy a few years back.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Hi freshman! May get your head out of your ass and realize that I look at recent results worldwide and not some specific, hand-picked US tournaments what partly were held more than 9 months ago, to determine how a deck, that maybe less than 3% of the players piloted in those respective tournaments, performs overall.

According to your lresented data and recent SCG results, Meerfolk had a sharp decline as well ... so that means that TNN HURT meerfolk as well, as you stricktly outruled any other factors in regards to goblins?!

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I think you miss the point. A deck isn't dead when it is still able to win tournaments. Goblins was more than capable to win tournaments. Like I said it will never be as popular as it used to be because the meta can hate it out very easily. Right now this is happening, but not because of Goblins, but because of TNN. All the hate on TNN is detrimental for a deck as Goblins.

I only gave some results of big SCG events, but Goblins was a winning strategy globaly, it was performing well in Europe and even Japan. In August or September it was a DTB here on The Source. So please enlighten me and explain to me: "TNN did not push out Maverick, Goblins or Aggro Loam ... those decks were dead long before."

Let me also iterate that all those decks that only have like a 3% representation on Tournaments are actualy the thing that seperates Legacy from modern. Did you ever go to a modern event? Even a Grand Prix is the same decks round after round. You play against BGx 3 times, 2 Affinity decks, 2 UWr control decks and 2 Splinter Twins. Impressive... The flavor of Legacy is that you are not facing Blade control and Patriot every round. Lately this is deteriorating into exactly that and I blame TNN and somewhat Brainstorm for this.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

If you're uninterested in Modern, great, there's a format that can satisfy your Magic needs... it's called Legacy. Why do Legacy players insist on trying to make Modern into Legacy-lite? Why do Legacy players cry about not being able to play Ponder, Dread Return, JtMS, etc in Modern when they can just play with those cards in Legacy? Why can't Legacy be Legacy and Modern be Modern?

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Although I definitely disagree with ya regarding True-Name Nemesis, I agree with ya here. +1

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

If you're uninterested in Modern, great, there's a format that can satisfy your Magic needs... it's called Legacy. Why do Legacy players insist on trying to make Modern into Legacy-lite? Why do Legacy players cry about not being able to play Ponder, Dread Return, JtMS, etc in Modern when they can just play with those cards in Legacy? Why can't Legacy be Legacy and Modern be Modern?

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It looks like a lot of people feel this way, but the problem is that Modern is supported by a PTQ season, a PT, more Grand Prixs, and even the Modern FNM option, whereas Legacy is not. I play both formats, but my reason for playing Modern is the GPs and PTQs (and the Modern PT I played in). There is definitely a reason why you can't just play Legacy if you don't like the Modern banned list if you are a competitive Magic player.

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

It looks like a lot of people feel this way, but the problem is that Modern is supported by a PTQ season, a PT, more Grand Prixs, and even the Modern FNM option, whereas Legacy is not. I play both formats, but my reason for playing Modern is the GPs and PTQs (and the Modern PT I played in). There is definitely a reason why you can't just play Legacy if you don't like the Modern banned list if you are a competitive Magic player.

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You just have to accept that the SCG Opens and occassional BoM-style tourneys are going to be the best you're going to get in terms of major-prize support for a Legacy event. Prize payout for Legacy events aren't anything to scoff at either; SCG Opens award 1st place $2,400 for a 1-day 250-300 person tourney whereas GPs award 1st place $4,000 for a 2-day 1,200-2,400 person tourney. BoM? Their prize support is absolutely bonkers, imo the best any tourney has to offer.

I also play both formats competitively and really enjoy Legacy for when I want to Brainstorm, SFM, Jace and Modern for when I want to Sphinx's Revelation for 4+, Cryptic Command and Ajani Vengeant -7 my opponent's lands. Each format offers me a unique experience that can't be replicated in the other.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

If you're uninterested in Modern, great, there's a format that can satisfy your Magic needs... it's called Legacy. Why do Legacy players insist on trying to make Modern into Legacy-lite? Why do Legacy players cry about not being able to play Ponder, Dread Return, JtMS, etc in Modern when they can just play with those cards in Legacy? Why can't Legacy be Legacy and Modern be Modern?

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They announced modern as an eternal format that starts with 8th edition. When people heard that it was reasonable to expect that it would be like a lot Legacy except at a lower cost barrier since you wouldn't have to buy Dual Lands. It's reasonable that these players would be ticked off when cards like preordain are banned. At that point the options are to either keep playing very expensive Legacy decks or a (perceived) inferior format in Modern.

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Originally Posted by clavio

They announced modern as an eternal format that starts with 8th edition. When people heard that it was reasonable to expect that it would be like a lot Legacy except at a lower cost barrier since you wouldn't have to buy Dual Lands. It's reasonable that these players would be ticked off when cards like preordain are banned. At that point the options are to either keep playing very expensive Legacy decks or a (perceived) inferior format in Modern.

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It's completely unreasonable to think that an Eternal format that begins with 8th Edition/Mirrodin would be "a lot like Legacy, but cheaper because no ABUR duals". There are so many incredibly powerful and essential cards in Legacy that pre-date 8th Edition/Mirrodin it's not even close. Why anyone would think Modern = no-duals Legacy just because they heard the words "Eternal format" is beyond me.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Why can't Legacy be Legacy and Modern be Modern?

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Because we want a format where the dual lands get reprinted.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Because we want a format where the dual lands get reprinted.

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Due to the Reserved List, that will not happen. Although, the majority of the complaints I hear from Legacy players about Modern is not about the ABUR duals, it's about not being able to play with Ponder, Dread Return, Stoneforge Mystic, JtMS, etc. Essentially, they dislike the Modern banned list.

But why? They can just play Dread Return in Legacy if they really want to play with it soooo badly. Ponder? In Legacy, there are multiple tempo decks and multiple combo decks that run it as an auto 4-of. Stoneforge Mystic? 3 out of the top 5 Legacy decks run a playset.

If all of these Legacy players want to play with their Legacy staples... just stick to Legacy. If they want to branch out and try something different, give Modern a shot. If they don't like Modern, fine. But stop complaining about not being able to play with Ponder in Modern when you have the ability to do so in Legacy.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Due to the Reserved List, that will not happen. Although, the majority of the complaints I hear from Legacy players about Modern is not about the ABUR duals, it's about not being able to play with Ponder, Dread Return, Stoneforge Mystic, JtMS, etc. Essentially, they dislike the Modern banned list.

But why? They can just play Dread Return in Legacy if they really want to play with it soooo badly. Ponder? In Legacy, there are multiple tempo decks and multiple combo decks that run it as an auto 4-of. Stoneforge Mystic? 3 out of the top 5 Legacy decks run a playset.

If all of these Legacy players want to play with their Legacy staples... just stick to Legacy. If they want to branch out and try something different, give Modern a shot. If they don't like Modern, fine. But stop complaining about not being able to play with Ponder in Modern when you have the ability to do so in Legacy.

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But I don't want to spend thousands on my manabase.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

But I don't want to spend thousands on my manabase.

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You can't have it all. If you want to play with Ponder, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace the Mind Sculptor, then you'll need your Flooded Strands and Tundras. Sorry, that's the cost of entry into top tier Legacy. If you're not okay with that, then Modern is there for you, but the cost of entry into that format is accepting that you won't have access to cards like Ponder, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace the Mind Sculptor.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

You can't have it all.

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What you actually mean is WotC won't let me have it all because they're incompetent morons who lack any ability to manage any Eternal formats whatsoever?

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Due to the Reserved List, that will not happen.

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Oh, it's happening all right.

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

Really expected survival above shit like earthcraft, mind twist, and black vise? Really? Survival isn't getting unbanned in legacy, period. But feel free to keep dreaming as survival being unbanned in legacy is just that, a dream.

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It's funny that you can tell how long players have been around by the arguments/cards they discuss in relation to banning and unbanning. People that argue clamp should be legal more than likely never played with it, people that argue twist and vice should been unbanned tend to be greybeards, and people that argue survival should be unbanned tend to have just started playing seriously the last time survival was legal :P

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

So after playing the format for a month, I just got booted out of Modern. Great. Anyone want a worthless Rock deck? I can not even be bothered to strip it for parts, I am just going to sell it whole and move on. Lesson learnt, stick with Legacy.

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Sure, I'll give you $5 for your 'worthless' Rock deck. Your comment is rhetorical and just stupid. I actually think Rock is one of the decks previously running DRS to come away from this without being crippled.

It's funny how people beating up Modern are flaying the DRS banning without mentioning that, for the first time, they have banned and unbanned to a net positive for the format. They banned something, but there are now fewer cards on the list. WotC is actively involved in trying to make the format 'better' - not just by limiting it's power level, but also by expanding the pool.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

What you actually mean is WotC won't let me have it all because they're incompetent morons who lack any ability to manage any Eternal formats whatsoever?

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Right, cause they regularly punt Legacy (and have done for the last 5 years) and have shown a complete ineptness in Modern since it's inception. Because making Magic better is making you happy.

Goyf has been out for 6 years and it cost 150USD with probably thousands and thousands of copies... FOW coste 100USD and has been out for 18 years... how much would it cost goyf by that time? This is a collectors game... you must pay the cost of demanding cards and dont cry about it...

Looks like the bitching about prices and reprints thread in here.

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Originally Posted by Ellomdian

It's funny that you can tell how long players have been around by the arguments/cards they discuss in relation to banning and unbanning. People that argue clamp should be legal more than likely never played with it, people that argue twist and vice should been unbanned tend to be greybeards, and people that argue survival should be unbanned tend to have just started playing seriously the last time survival was legal :P

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Greybeard chiming in here. The format is pretty healthy right now. I'm not sure you're totally correct:

1. Clamp is absurd in decks with small creatures. Elves, Affinity, and Gobbos would immediately use it. Other aggro decks would use it for value. It's not over-powered in a world of Show and Tell, in absolute terms, but if you unbanned it then it would immediately be EVERYWHERE. Too oppressive to unban.

2. Black Vise is also absurd. Turn 1, in the worst case scenario, it is a colorless lightning bolt, and it is not uncommon to take 6 or more of the opponent's life if you drop it on turn 1. Most decks will get out from under a Vise quickly with relative ease, but if you're running an aggressive strategy, that initial damage makes it difficult for the opponent to last very long. As with Clamp, it may not really be overpowered relative to cards in the format, but if it's unbanned you will see aggressive decks jamming 4 just because of the potential for a HUGE life swing for almost no investment. It would be EVERYWHERE and so it's too oppressive to unban.

3. Survival of the Fittest seems like a go-either-way kind of card. It's powerful, very powerful, and with the printing of Vengevine it got even bigger. Still, it's essentially a slower and more reliable re-animator strategy that, in my mind, did not have a long enough period of dominance for the format to adjust and find good answers. The argument for banning Survival seems very similar to the one for banning Mystical Tutor. Hard call to make, gotta rely on the people with the actual data on this.

4. Earthcraft seems like a pretty darn safe unban to me. What are we worried about, Squirrel Nest combos? Legacy has better combinations. Earthcraft seems like Land Tax and Scroll Rack; cards that were absurdly powerful in the past, but nowadays would not shake things up much. What is the reasoning for keeping it on the list at all at this point?

5. Mind Twist also seems like a safe unban. It's legal in Vintage and sees no play. It's probably worse than Hymn to Torach. The only reason this is still on the list seems, to me, to be because when it works it's a feel bad. Turn 1 ritual, ritual, 5 point Mind Twist is pretty much game over. That only happens once in a blue moon, though. Are we really worried about a 3 mana Hymn? I'm not.

Black Vise is about the worst top deck ever. Has blank text on the draw versus any mid range or aggressive deck. Is bad Lava Spike without building around it. Burn wouldn't even play it, because it's average output vs Goblin Guide, Bolt, Rift Bolt, Grim Lavamancer is terrible. About the only thing it has going for it is to build a prison deck around it ... most prison decks want chalice on 1 really bad. This costs 1. Prison isn't really anywhere on the map right now outside of maybe DnT which has a heavy mana denial theme. I mean Stasis would have a win condition ... unfortunately they printed Abrupt Decay. One positive for the vise is the current wording doesn't target.

Skullclamp, Memory Jar and Mind's Desire are fucking insane and if you don't understand why I don't have the patience to explain it to you.

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Originally Posted by MaximumC

5. Mind Twist also seems like a safe unban. It's legal in Vintage and sees no play. It's probably worse than Hymn to Torach. The only reason this is still on the list seems, to me, to be because when it works it's a feel bad. Turn 1 ritual, ritual, 5 point Mind Twist is pretty much game over. That only happens once in a blue moon, though. Are we really worried about a 3 mana Hymn? I'm not.

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Not at all. What people miss about this is you've just used up three cards in order to take out 4. In order to cripple your opponent's hand, you've crippled yours as well. It's true you came out ahead (losing 3 cards instead of 4) but you've still hurt yourself as well as them.

Now, what is Game Over is Turn 1 Ritual, Ritual, Ad Nauseam. Which, what do you know, has been legal for years without being a problem.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

Exclusing the Legacy staples like Ooze, Goyf, Abrupt Decay, Bob, Liliana, fetchlands, Thoughtseize, etc, Modern Rock is really cheap to build. Like, you need a couple Dismember, a few $7 shocklands, and some narrow $2 Modern sideboard cards. I don't understand why you'd want to sell off Bobs, Goyfs, Lilis, fetches, Thoughtseizes, Oozes, etc just because you can't play Rock in Modern anymore. It doesn't make any sense from a financial standpoint, nor from a Legacy standpoint.

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Because he ...

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

...has Elves, Fish, Painter, Dredge, Burn and Goblins built right now. I don't need another deck.

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He doesn't need another deck. Also, in the above list I don't see many ABUR duals with "tap: add either B, R or G" nor the appropriate fetches. Instead of purchasing USD 1500 manabase, maybe it is wiser to sell the USD 1500 non-lands.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Not at all. What people miss about this is you've just used up three cards in order to take out 4. In order to cripple your opponent's hand, you've crippled yours as well. It's true you came out ahead (losing 3 cards instead of 4) but you've still hurt yourself as well as them.

Now, what is Game Over is Turn 1 Ritual, Ritual, Ad Nauseam. Which, what do you know, has been legal for years without being a problem.

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Exactly.
While "Swamp, Drit, Drit, Mind Twist" devastates both hands and "Tomb (18), Mox, Drit, Monolith, Adn -> Monolith, Dynamo, Gilded Lotus, etc. (0)" is pretty risky, something with Mind Twist, Sol lands and artifact mana, (esp. the Grim Monoliths) might work better. But in fact I think it'll be bad.

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Originally Posted by feline

Wow, they actually banned Deathrite in Modern, didn't expect that to actually happen. No changes Legacy, as per the usual.

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Wizards wants it so the only playable planeswalkers in both formats are sassy black chicks.

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Originally Posted by Nielsie

I think you miss the point. A deck isn't dead when it is still able to win tournaments. Goblins was more than capable to win tournaments. Like I said it will never be as popular as it used to be because the meta can hate it out very easily. Right now this is happening, but not because of Goblins, but because of TNN. All the hate on TNN is detrimental for a deck as Goblins.

I only gave some results of big SCG events, but Goblins was a winning strategy globaly, it was performing well in Europe and even Japan. In August or September it was a DTB here on The Source. So please enlighten me and explain to me: "TNN did not push out Maverick, Goblins or Aggro Loam ... those decks were dead long before."

Let me also iterate that all those decks that only have like a 3% representation on Tournaments are actualy the thing that seperates Legacy from modern. Did you ever go to a modern event? Even a Grand Prix is the same decks round after round. You play against BGx 3 times, 2 Affinity decks, 2 UWr control decks and 2 Splinter Twins. Impressive... The flavor of Legacy is that you are not facing Blade control and Patriot every round. Lately this is deteriorating into exactly that and I blame TNN and somewhat Brainstorm for this.

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We seem to have a completely different idea of decks being dead. For me, a deck dropping below a certain % of the average field, is considered dead or we would have to consider Pros Bloom still a deck if you T8 your local 4 rounder.

Don't try to explain me my Euro metagame. Goblins see only fringe play since WotC startet to print single-card powerhouses which make tribal strategies pointless. Goblin took a serious hit from the Miracles-mechanic and SFM->Batterskull and not because of TNN. Loam because of Surgical Extraction/DRS/RIP and not because TNN has Protection from Punishing Fire.

Gobbos largely ignore terminus btw

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

Now, what is Game Over is Turn 1 Ritual, Ritual, Ad Nauseam. Which, what do you know, has been legal for years without being a problem.

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I see your T1 Ad Nauseam and raise you:
T1 City of Traitors, Mox Diamond discarding land, Metalworker. (now you Ad Nauseam) T2 City of Traitors sacrificing city of Traitors, Tap Metalworker to reveal 2 artifacts, Grim Monolith, Mind Twist for X=9 on turn 2. So much for your Ad Nauseam draw!

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

It's completely unreasonable to think that an Eternal format that begins with 8th Edition/Mirrodin would be "a lot like Legacy, but cheaper because no ABUR duals". There are so many incredibly powerful and essential cards in Legacy that pre-date 8th Edition/Mirrodin it's not even close. Why anyone would think Modern = no-duals Legacy just because they heard the words "Eternal format" is beyond me.

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I agree that there is no need for Modern to be like Legacy. My problem with the format is the manner in which they do bannings. If they did bannings like this in other formats, whatever deck is the "best deck" would have something banned every 3 months. It just doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Exactly.
While "Swamp, Drit, Drit, Mind Twist" devastates both hands and "Tomb (18), Mox, Drit, Monolith, Adn -> Monolith, Dynamo, Gilded Lotus, etc. (0)" is pretty risky, something with Mind Twist, Sol lands and artifact mana, (esp. the Grim Monoliths) might work better. But in fact I think it'll be bad.

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I think if Mind Twist sees play, it'll be in decks like MUD or Elves; that is, decks that can produce a fair amount of mana to fuel Mind Twist but don't rely on card disadvantage (i.e. one-shot rituals) to do it. Of course, they won't be pulling it off turn 1.

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Originally Posted by MaximumC

2. Black Vise is also absurd. Turn 1, in the worst case scenario, it is a colorless lightning bolt, and it is not uncommon to take 6 or more of the opponent's life if you drop it on turn 1. Most decks will get out from under a Vise quickly with relative ease, but if you're running an aggressive strategy, that initial damage makes it difficult for the opponent to last very long. As with Clamp, it may not really be overpowered relative to cards in the format, but if it's unbanned you will see aggressive decks jamming 4 just because of the potential for a HUGE life swing for almost no investment. It would be EVERYWHERE and so it's too oppressive to unban.

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Also a greybeard here. I agree with most of your other assessments, but I think this one is way off. In a format where people can get below 4 cards in the first couple turns, you have to play it early for it to be effective, which means you have to run 4 copies. Thing is, every copy you draw past the first is completely dead in most cases. Most highly aggressive decks in this format can't afford dead draws at all.

Vice might make Stasis viable. It might see play in a Burn variant alongside Shrapnel Blast. Neither of these is likely to significantly impact the metagame. Vice is safe to come off, imo.

RND are way to triggerhappy. I aggre with the unbans for modern but really banning deathrite without having the other 2s unbanned for 3 months seem wrong. Doubt zoo is gonna come back in full action as an aggro strategi with snapcaster lightning bolt / path to exile in the format. Just gonna be a such up-hill battle.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

I think if Mind Twist sees play, it'll be in decks like MUD or Elves; that is, decks that can produce a fair amount of mana to fuel Mind Twist but don't rely on card disadvantage (i.e. one-shot rituals) to do it. Of course, they won't be pulling it off turn 1.

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Yep, that's what I thought about. But in Elves you won't be firing Twist before turn4 (maybe turn3 with very powerful initial hand) and by that time it can be pretty irrelevant (unless you think of it as a Big Cabal Therapy to protect Natural Order). In MUD you may play pretty devastating Mind Twist as soon as turn3, maybe even turn2. Is this viable? And is this better than the "DRit, DRit, AdN" scenario?
I'm not ven guessing what cards should go out to make room for Twist because I never played Elves and I sold MUD stuff two years ago.