Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

Some nic fitters think slaughter games or surgical effects are the key to winning this matchups(naming jace, entreat or FoW usually.). Those cards are terrible, but still vary your wincons so you don't get blown out, and be aware of surgical's interaction with top/miracles.

Using Philips standard 4 ponder setup, I would board like this typically:
-4 CB
-1 Stp
-2 REB
+1 Counterspell
+2 Priest
+2 Clique
+1 Judgment
+1 W/T

Against the BUG decks you want REBS. Against scapeshift you need to treat them a bit more like combo (less removal more counters BEB and counterbalance are ok). Against Pfire, you can treat them more like Jund (GY, EE or moon are all good, maybe keep in some CB but over-rely on them).

EDIT: I should add except for punishing fire version, we are favored. That matchup is even to unfavored. The GBW lists are the easiest. The BUG lists are probably 55/45, scapeshift is closer to 60/40. I don't normally say this, but the legend build, or SFM builds are definitely better positioned. The games go super long and Batterskull or legend + Karakas are very tough for them to beat.

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Most BUG nic-fits run Treasure Cruise, one particular version runs Notion Thief. Hence I would never take out Blast if they're on BUG. Keep in mind, you want to float a removal or a hard counter (counterspell/Blast) if possible. In most scenario, they will therapy/thoughtseize first, before they drop their bomb.

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Originally Posted by zeus-online

I mostly encounter versions featuring liliana(Their best card against miracles imho) and punishing fire, the versions i encounter without these cards are not the ones i am worried about.
I wonder about your take on the entreats: The good nic fit players are difficult to bait, my response is to board in as much removal for deed and liliana as possible, i see your point on counterbalance however...but against punishing fire i tend to keep it in?

I am playing a philips old version with -1 volc, +1 mountain...my sideboard is a mess that i need to clean up.

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This is where I feel the urge to lobby for Celestial Purge again. Unlike BEB, it can't get blasted by REB/Pyro. It will hit all the YP when you're not playing against nic-fit; it can still hit Liliana/DRS/Deed and the occasional Dark Confidant/BBE.

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Originally Posted by BlackStarDeceiver

[snip] ... Watch out for Choke and Notion Thief in the blue versions.

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Emphasis mine.

I just want to be sure this isn't an error of some kind, and that enough blue Nic Fit players out there are running Choke in their decks to make it worth playing around.

Normally, when I see blue mana on the other side of the table, Choke is highly unlikely.

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Originally Posted by zeus-online

One thing i don't understand: Why are you boarding Force of will out?
Æther vial is such a beating, and force of will is one of the best ways of shutting it down.
On the subject of æther vial in death and taxes - would you consider boarding containment priest in? It kills vial'ed creatures, it is pretty safe to assume that they will board plows out, and it is a surprise blocker.

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Boarding out force makes sense because DnT has a lot of cards of very even powerlevel, moreso than a lot of other decks. In this case trading a 2-for-1 is very detrimental so it makes sense to take out force. Yes, some cards are good, but it's not like "force this or you lose the game" good in most circumstances. The 2-for-1 cost, again, is just too high. Additionally, if they draw their anti-counter stuff (that is vial, sometimes cavern of souls), then your counters just become straight dead. Vial is good of course, but it's not like I think I'm just going to auto-lose to DnT just because they got a vial in play...

Containment priest doesn't quite work how you want against vial. Your opponent simply can choose to not put a creature into play with a vial activation. So, in this sense it stops aether vial, but you'll never actually get anybody to just slam a creature into play from vial with a containment priest in play. It can be a surprise blocker, but there's actually a very small amount of things you can actually kill with it: mother (if lucky), spirit of the labyrinth, non-equppied SFM, Brimaz tokens, Revoker. But, even still, I think it definitely seems worthwhile here and would bring it in.

Something else important I forgot, against any nic fit. Countering their top is a priority. They have like 36-30 lands/ramp cards or dead draws like therapy late game but top does a lot of work for them.

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Originally Posted by zeus-online

I mostly encounter versions featuring liliana(Their best card against miracles imho) and punishing fire, the versions i encounter without these cards are not the ones i am worried about.
I wonder about your take on the entreats: The good nic fit players are difficult to bait, my response is to board in as much removal for deed and liliana as possible, i see your point on counterbalance however...but against punishing fire i tend to keep it in?

I am playing a philips old version with -1 volc, +1 mountain...my sideboard is a mess that i need to clean up.

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Yeah the lily+pfire builds are the toughest. You basically have to treat them like a slower more inevitable Jund. You don't need to STP confidants but you might have to deal with a thrun or random 1/1s getting +6/+0 every turn from a Kessig Wolf Run. The big deal though, is that they can answer jace and entreat fairly easily. Batterskull or legend+karakas are still tough though. Also, of the versions they play the most fair, so FoW is less good. The other variants all have a "must counter" card like pod, scapeshift or karn.

I would take out 1-4 FoW. 1-3 Stp. 2 REB. Bring in clique, EE, W/T, Judgment, Counterspell and any thing like SFM/baneslayer, RIP, needle (for deed mostly) or Moon if you run them. Priest might be worth playing here? I have done zero testing with priest in the matchup though.

Possibly more so than in any other matchup, our jaces and entreats are actually super easy for them to answer, but they are still very powerful cards that can steal games so don't cut them.

Liking the high level MU analysis going on atm. Just want to chime in and remind you guys primer is still in progress. I'm hoping to get it mostly done either before Christmas or not too long after New Years. Will have more time to work on parts of it once I'm done with school in a little more than a week. With that said, Einjerher, would you mind if I took your Death and Taxes write up and add it to the primer since it never got published??? Also, TheArchitect feel like doing a write up on Nic Fit variants for the MU analysis section in the primer? Not completely necessary since that deck is still fringe but the more comprehensive the primer can be the better.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

Boarding out force makes sense because DnT has a lot of cards of very even powerlevel, moreso than a lot of other decks. In this case trading a 2-for-1 is very detrimental so it makes sense to take out force. Yes, some cards are good, but it's not like "force this or you lose the game" good in most circumstances. The 2-for-1 cost, again, is just too high. Additionally, if they draw their anti-counter stuff (that is vial, sometimes cavern of souls), then your counters just become straight dead. Vial is good of course, but it's not like I think I'm just going to auto-lose to DnT just because they got a vial in play...

Containment priest doesn't quite work how you want against vial. Your opponent simply can choose to not put a creature into play with a vial activation. So, in this sense it stops aether vial, but you'll never actually get anybody to just slam a creature into play from vial with a containment priest in play. It can be a surprise blocker, but there's actually a very small amount of things you can actually kill with it: mother (if lucky), spirit of the labyrinth, non-equppied SFM, Brimaz tokens, Revoker. But, even still, I think it definitely seems worthwhile here and would bring it in.

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As Einherjer already wrote, FoW is kind of necessary. The analysis of Death and Taxes should be added to the primer, because everything he wrote is 100% correct, not because i'm a fanboy, but because i played the MU a lot of times, and therefore agree with everything.

I wouldn't bring Containment Priest, because in a standard 75 without some extraordinary choices, there are way better cards to have postboard. His impact besides shutting off Vial is very little, it is as you mentioned not good against their creatures and will therefore create akward situations where you are forced to sweep the board, while it is in play. Having some number of FoWs over Priest is just better, because they are more flexible and you have an insurance for Cataclysm.

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Originally Posted by Adryan

As Einherjer already wrote, FoW is kind of necessary. The analysis of Death and Taxes should be added to the primer, because everything he wrote is 100% correct, not because i'm a fanboy, but because i played the MU a lot of times, and therefore agree with everything.

I wouldn't bring Containment Priest, because in a standard 75 without some extraordinary choices, there are way better cards to have postboard. His impact besides shutting off Vial is very little, it is as you mentioned not good against their creatures and will therefore create akward situations where you are forced to sweep the board, while it is in play. Having some number of FoWs over Priest is just better, because they are more flexible and you have an insurance for Cataclysm.

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First of all, in today's meta, who still runs Keranos in their SB? When I play against every deck that can tap lands for red mana, it's almost certain Keranos will run into a Blast on stack. Fine, say you do have it in the SB and you run into DnT, do you actually expect your lands to get pass Port/Waste lock to get to 5? If that happens, you have already in huge favor anyway. Keranos... seems like a bonus at that point.

As to the Priest, here's the thing about DnT. If you're being put onto land lock, Flash creature to block is huge. If you kill a Spirit, you free your Brainstorm/Jace, that's tremendous. If you kill a revoker, you free your SDT, a trade I would do every time. Shutting off Vial is not that insignificant. Every time DnT activate Vial at 2, when it's not a fake, it's guaranteed horrid for us. Serra might be the least damaging. When you shut off Vial, you then enjoy the liberty to use your Disenchant/Tear/Council on other things like revoker (if you need to free your SDT immediately) or an equipment.

My point is that Priest offers another layer of defense. Yes, you might draw into multiple StP and Snap to kill DnT dudes, in that case Priest seems unnecessarily. When you are stuck with clunky Miracle cards in hand or just can't find a StP for whatever reasons, Priest can buy you time, even if you have to get rid of her later.

versus DxT CPriest is not needed. I board -4Counterbalance -2REB +1 Disenchant +1 Council's Judgement +1 EE +1 Counterspell +2 Vendilion Clique. If I would play it I dont even want it over Vendilion Clique here.

I assumed Priest replaced RIP in the Austrian lists to hedge against Vial decks. If people wouldn't even board it in against that deck, I'm thinking the cards going to be another passing fad (e.g. Keranos).

@Keranos
It's an old article he submitted before KtK, i mean he stated that he didn't look over it. Reading skills guys are very much needed in a forum. Obviously no one runs Keranos anymore, because he became bad.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

I assumed Priest replaced RIP in the Austrian lists to hedge against Vial decks. If people wouldn't even board it in against that deck, I'm thinking the cards going to be another passing fad (e.g. Keranos).

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If RIP had flash and could attack for two wouldn't you play it over RIP? What if it also shut down sneak and show, shut off the scary parts of elves, and shut down all of reanimtor (not just their GY stuff). Wouldn't you DEFINITELY play that?

Basically the only matchup where RIP is really good but priest doesn't do its job better is lands.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

I assumed Priest replaced RIP in the Austrian lists to hedge against Vial decks. If people wouldn't even board it in against that deck, I'm thinking the cards going to be another passing fad (e.g. Keranos).

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Cards Priest doesn't do a thing:
Cascade cards
Punishing Fire
Loam
Past in Flame

Cards that are turn off:
GSZ
Natural Order
Vial
Lackey, or any dudes that would allow you to put more dudes into play
Show and Tell
Sneak Attack
Ichorid
Fetchland for Dryad Arbor

Cards that are absolutely crushing if Priest resolves:
Reanimate
Exhume
Shallow Grave

But it's basically green decks and Vial decks where Priest does anything that RIP doesn't. In those matchups, it seems to be questionable whether or not it's even worth boarding. I wouldn't mind it against Elves, but that matchup doesn't need help. I like it against Vial, and I figured that was the big winner. RIP when it's brought in, completely wrecks matchups and makes the game almost unwinnable for decks. Show and Tell is a deck in existence, but who even plays that anymore? Seems more likely to run into actual graveyard decks where RIP completely locks them out.

I'll probably try the card when it drops in price on MODO. But in the place of a Disenchant or Council's Judgment, not RIP. I've never been comfortable with the D&T matchup and the card sounds good there.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

But it's basically green decks and Vial decks where Priest does anything that RIP doesn't. In those matchups, it seems to be questionable whether or not it's even worth boarding. I wouldn't mind it against Elves, but that matchup doesn't need help. I like it against Vial, and I figured that was the big winner. RIP when it's brought in, completely wrecks matchups and makes the game almost unwinnable for decks. Show and Tell is a deck in existence, but who even plays that anymore? Seems more likely to run into actual graveyard decks where RIP completely locks them out.

I'll probably try the card when it drops in price on MODO. But in the place of a Disenchant or Council's Judgment, not RIP. I've never been comfortable with the D&T matchup and the card sounds good there.

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Against Dredge or reanimtor it is much better than RIP. Being an instant in huge. You basically can never cast RIP till turn 3-4 because if it gets dazed or FoW, they just untap and kill you while you are tapped out. Also, being a 2/2 is a big deal. You don't need to draw RIP AND clique to start killing the reanimtor player. Just 1 card instead. Also, it stops the 4 show and tells reanimator runs. People do infact still play sneak and show.

I would not bring it in priest vs D&T or Maverick and these are already good to awesome matchups. Elves I would, but again not a terrible matchup. Also, I don't bring in RIP in against storm normally unless I know they are not running scary creatures in the SB or packing empty so that is not missed.

Loam or Pfire strategies always have a many answers to a RIP so while it helps these matchups its not game over if you resolve RIP.

It basically boils down what do you lose to most: Sneak attack, show and tell and reanimtor or loam and pfire. I run into reanimator or sneak/show in probably 10% of my matchups. I see punishing fires and loams far less often than that.

I play a lot of Dredge and Priest is the softest form of graveyard hate against it. Even softer than Relic or Crypt. I suppose it is better against Reanimator, mostly because it stops Show and Tell.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

I play a lot of Dredge and Priest is the softest form of graveyard hate against it. Even softer than Relic or Crypt. I suppose it is better against Reanimator, mostly because it stops Show and Tell.

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And can you please explain why it wouldn't be great against dredge?!
Even if you get a creature on the board, you cannot attack, givin that the priest would block and you'd lose the bridges.
It seems kinda good to me.

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Originally Posted by Said-In-Contest

And can you please explain why it wouldn't be great against dredge?!
Even if you get a creature on the board, you cannot attack, givin that the priest would block and you'd lose the bridges.
It seems kinda good to me.

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I think in about 30% of sideboard games with Dredge I end up hardcasting creatures around graveyard hate. Golgari Thug, particularly, you can loop and sacrifice each turn in a lot of circumstances. It seems like Dredge only has limited outs to things, but when you flip your entire deck the possibilities open up, which is what I like about the deck. Containment Priest is basically a bad Grafdigger's Cage that can block, but doesn't turn of sacrifice outlets. So if I'm dredging 6 a turn, you've stalled me out for 2 or 3 turns at most before I start putting 6 or so power on board each turn. Do you block to destroy the Bridges? I suppose you could have drawn enough answers for 3 or 4 Ichorids and Dread Return, or Entreat may be on top of your deck so you're good to go. Dredge's power increases exponentially as turns pass, so trying to win the "slog" games where you grind out all their bridges and exile all their Ichorids is inherently worse than simply buying time to find RIP.

This isn't to say that I think Priest shouldn't be in the deck, just that RIP should be, as well. I think Priest has more in common with Pithing Needle than RIP. Looking forward to trying it once more are in circulation.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

I think in about 30% of sideboard games with Dredge I end up hardcasting creatures around graveyard hate. Golgari Thug, particularly, you can loop and sacrifice each turn in a lot of circumstances. It seems like Dredge only has limited outs to things, but when you flip your entire deck the possibilities open up, which is what I like about the deck. Containment Priest is basically a bad Grafdigger's Cage that can block, but doesn't turn of sacrifice outlets. So if I'm dredging 6 a turn, you've stalled me out for 2 or 3 turns at most before I start putting 6 or so power on board each turn. Do you block to destroy the Bridges? I suppose you could have drawn enough answers for 3 or 4 Ichorids and Dread Return, or Entreat may be on top of your deck so you're good to go. Dredge's power increases exponentially as turns pass, so trying to win the "slog" games where you grind out all their bridges and exile all their Ichorids is inherently worse than simply buying time to find RIP.

This isn't to say that I think Priest shouldn't be in the deck, just that RIP should be, as well. I think Priest has more in common with Pithing Needle than RIP. Looking forward to trying it once more are in circulation.

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I don't quite understand your comment; how do you even get the Ichorids in play besides casting them, and wouldn't that be pretty much a one-shot deal?

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Originally Posted by SageShadows

I don't quite understand your comment; how do you even get the Ichorids in play besides casting them, and wouldn't that be pretty much a one-shot deal?

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I was saying the Ichorids have to be dealt with if you want to block and exile bridges with Containment Priest. Sorry if the post wasn't clear enough.

I have been forced to use my draw step with dredge before and gotten to 4 lands, though. At that point you can hardcast even Ichorid until you kill yourself with painlands.

I'm 90% certain we win every game that you start trying to cast Spells from your hand. I have played against Dredge more than any other deck, and that is not how you win games of Magic.

You're 90% certain we win every game RIP resolves? Agreed. A weaker version of Grafdigger's Cage taking it's place could change things. Joe's last game on Stream against Bahra he would have lost even with Cage in play. Relic was what saved him.

So the deck plays 15 lands and 0 draw Spells. You have 4 Sacrifice outlets. Our deck still contains 8 1-mana removal Spells.

Priest is worse than RiP against Dredge, that's a given, but it doesn't matter, because it still practically wins us the game on the spot. It's actually probably better, as you can't Claim it.

Four of those 1 mana removal spells kill Priest, though, and allow dredge to continue it's gameplan.

It isn't hard for them to reach two to three mana and just dredge into a Thug or Imp and just make a bunch of zombies and win through. Also, their deck plays plenty of draw spells.

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

So the deck plays 15 lands and 0 draw Spells. You have 4 Sacrifice outlets. Our deck still contains 8 1-mana removal Spells.

Priest is worse than RiP against Dredge, that's a given, but it doesn't matter, because it still practically wins us the game on the spot. It's actually probably better, as you can't Claim it.

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Dredge plays as many as 16 draw spells if you count Coliseum. It also has the dredge mechanic which lets it draw up to 6 cards a turn. It's the only deck in Magic that worries about decking itself as early as turn 5.

In the end, this is a silly argument. People will just have to run Priest and see if they feel RIP is no longer needed.

So yesterday i played a tournament and lost 2 matches even though my list is pretty awesome (own brew). Some of the losses were pretty bad. I realize now that some of my seven card hands were too risky/greedy (thats probably why i lost). Do you guys have a rule of thumb when to mulligan?

Also at one point against ur-delver i was under pressure and had to brainstorm. It was quite early in the game and i was at like 10 life facing a delver and a Pyromancer which was just cast. Opponent had three cards in hand. My board was 3 lands and one fetch. before putting cards back and fetching my hand was something like
-counterbalance
-fow
-Jace
-entreat
-Brainstorm
-Blue blast
-Swords.

I know there are a lot of other things that have to be considered, but what would you guys put back? would you fetch? I would like to hear some responses then i will tell you what actually happened. :eyebrow:

Your first mistake is having Force in post board. What step/phase are we in?

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

Your first mistake is having Force in post board. What step/phase are we in?

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You are right, that was a red elemental/pyro blast. i did board out all of my forces obviously. Hard to relive all of these things without detailed notes. it was end of his turn. I didnt know any of his cards in hand, he had one volcanic untapped and his graveyard was like 6-7 cards. and the delver was flipped by a ponder which he cast the turn before.

{{{This post did not get finished}}}

Opponent:
~3 Lands, one untapped Volc.
Delver (Fliiped + Attacked?) + Young Pyromancer (Sick)
3 CiH
Only play for the turn was Land(?) Swing, Pyro, correct?

You:
3 Lands + 1 Fetch
Hand: Counterbalance, Jace, Entreat, Brainstorm, Brainstorm (?) (Assuming this as there are 3 removal/counters in hand during the Brainstorm, which I assume you drew from them or else you wouldn't be Brainstorming at this point).

Cast Brainstorm: Swords, Red Blast, Blue Blast, Jace, Entreat, Balance, Brainstorm. I would put back Jace, Entreat, and/or Counterbalance. That would leave us with 3 1-mana removal/counterspells, and a Brainstorm, + whichever card we keep. At 9, we are very close to dying to everything they do.

If they have 1-mana Counterspell + Force + Blue card, we are losing this whole fight, and we have to be finding a Terminus. I would start by attempting to kill the Pyroman, and not fighting any counter war. If they generate a token from it, we're way to far behind for killing it to matter anymore, but if they can't save it, it puts us in a completely different position. We're now Vs a lone Delver, and they have zero interaction. Suddenly we don't need Terminus to not die. In face, Jace -> -1 is a very legitimate Tempo Play we could make here, as all we need to do is find some land drops and keep our head above water. Once we untap with the Jace, the whole game is over, and if we keep the Blue Blast, we can hope to find a Land, then fight an opposing Red Blast on Jace. If we don't find a Land, this line is way riskier, and I'd just kill the Delver in my Main Phase.

So, Line 1:
Cast Swords to Plowshares on Young Pyromancer.
If they have no responses, I would fetch, untap and draw.

{{{At this point I gave up}}}

Currently I'm super ill, and I can't tell but I think I went around in circles on myself there. I deleted this post about four times. This was my attempt at figuring the situation out. I figured I'd leave it here, as I want to know if I've got the initial situation right or not, and then there's some of my working below. I want to engineer them on 1 guy, Jace bounces it, or if they swarm with Pyroman, just start digging for a Terminus turn. (Either with the Brainstorm, or using Jace as a Fog, but that sounds pretty weak.)

Thats a pretty good answer already. My line of thinking was similair to what you suggested. unfortunately i made one big mistake.
I put back entreat and Brainstorm and thought i could clean the board one for one at the worst, then resolve CB/Jace and win from there. So i fetched for the chance of an improbable Terminus. This left me with a hand of:
-Counterbalance,
-Jace
-Blue Blast
-Red Blast
-Swords

My draw was an island. So i blue blasted the Pyromancer to prevent more tokens. then passed the turn.
He Bolts me, i sword his delver. and he ponders i think. board empty, at six life and i topdeck a terminus then flooded with lands. Inbetween i tried CB and Jace. Long story short: I die to a swiftspear a couple of turns later.

I thought my hand was so good that i didnt need the brainstorm. This happened a couple of times before but i wasnt punished for it. Could you guys imagine a scenario without a top in play in which fetching a BS away is the right play? Was my line just stupid or completely ridiculous?

Generally i think i've become a decent player with miracles however after like 40% of the games (win or lose, more often lose) i feel like i made a mistake or there was a better line of play. I know miracles is a very challenging deck thats why i still wonder if you guys like Einherjer or other miracles experts feel like you make mistakes that/quite often, or should i play more slowly/thoughtfully (no unintentional draws in a long time)?

Also the Mulligan question, keep a hand of top, plains, BS, CB, SCM; Jace, CB on the play against unknown opponent?

just won a small, 4 round cut-to-top-4 SCG OT with ponder miracles, wanted to make a few remarks about it while its fresh on my mind. ran something very close to Phillips GP list, without the pyro/reb main (a bad choice, but i only had one black bordered REB and i didnt want any more white cards in my deck).

round one - played against small pox. he wasnt able to get enough pressure and they cant beat the top of the deck. game 2 kept 4 land ponder, 2 top. worked out perfectly as he rit/hymned the first top and blew up a few lands, but i got to keep on playing
1-0, 2-0

round two - played against stoneblade. game one ended up taking 40 minutes, he cruised 4 times (3 resolved) and generally i never was able to get on the front foot against him. game 2 he played frustratingly slow (although not enough to call a judge on him, he just didnt have incentives to play and a quick pace. ended t5 with 4 angels in play, swords + judgement in hand while he had a SFM, and his one card in hand was the bskull. it happens
1-1, 2-1

round three - played against reanimator. game one i had the hard lock of cb+top with 2 cspells in hand and a jace ticking up. game two i boarded wrong as i expected her to name white if she rezzed an iona. game 3 clique + snapcaster were enough to keep her disrupted and then beat her down.
2-1, 4-2

round four - played against UWR stoneblade, guy made some questionable plays and had some bad draws. at one point he cast a SFM and forgot the trigger. put himself on tilt and never could recover.
3-1, 6-2

semis - played against a member of the testing group, running BBD's UWR stoneblade list. game one i got out ahead with jace to keep card advantage going against his treasure cruise, got some value with counterbalance before it got REB'd, and eventually brainstormed into countertop leaving 1&2 on top until jace ulted. game 2 he was tired and made a few poor plays, playing into spells he knew i had, and i was able to clean it up.
4-1, 8-2

finals - played against SnS. game one i kept a respectable hand and drew a second force, but couldnt beat show and tell with force back up to clear out my forces, then another show on the following turn. games 2 +3 i boarded into a disruptive creature package, kept sketchy landlight hands, with lots of gas and simply got there, both games through over 4 combined copies of show &/ sneak attack. i question how i boarded here, but at the time i though best to board out all swords and terminus, along with judgement and a few jaces, to bring in all the counter / disruption i could find. i figured if a fatty resolved i didnt have good odds to fight back, so i went all in on stopping that from happening.
5-1, 10-3

overall the deck ran well, but i definitely need to find some FBB or beta REB's so i can run the proper lists with a few in the main.

I'll throw it doen like this: Brainstorm is the best card in the whole deck. Everything else is there to make Brainstorm even better. Ponder, Miracles, Counterbalance, it all just makes Brainstorm the most important thing you could be doing. You already burned one trying not to die, so never ever ditch the second. Especially when you have no more Lands and are drawing blind next turn. This is actually almost certainly the reason you lost, but I can't exactly tell you that for certain, there's a whole game to be had. Counterbalance without Top is just sort of bad, unless you have Jace and a backup Brainstorm.

As far as that mulligan goes: I'd ship it. If it was an Island I'd be way more tempted to keep. You have no real castable Spells, but an Island puts you at 17 Lands making your whole hand live, with both Top and Brainstorm looking for them. I would also T1 the top, and Main Phase the Brainstorm if you don't see a land, pretending the Plains in the opener was an Island.

I was wondering if you guys have any specific tips for the differences in play style between the ponder build and the legends build? I've been playing the legends for the past handful of months up until GP NJ. I'm trying out the ponder build but I'm having very mediocre results.

It's clearly a lot better against aggro decks like UR Delver or Infect, but in games that are grindier I find myself struggling if I get behind on cards or if any "difficult" card resolves. I find myself having trouble with overly interactive games relative to legends, and feel like I have no closing power. Losing an Entreat to discard or a counter is a beating and a half, and I feel like I struggle to close when I don't have counter-top completely locking down. I just don't really know what I'm doing wrong or how I need to prioritize spells differently from me or my opponents.

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Originally Posted by Dat_Gentleman

I was wondering if you guys have any specific tips for the differences in play style between the ponder build and the legends build? I've been playing the legends for the past handful of months up until GP NJ. I'm trying out the ponder build but I'm having very mediocre results.

It's clearly a lot better against aggro decks like UR Delver or Infect, but in games that are grindier I find myself struggling if I get behind on cards or if any "difficult" card resolves. I find myself having trouble with overly interactive games relative to legends, and feel like I have no closing power. Losing an Entreat to discard or a counter is a beating and a half, and I feel like I struggle to close when I don't have counter-top completely locking down. I just don't really know what I'm doing wrong or how I need to prioritize spells differently from me or my opponents.

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1. grindier games
What do you mean by behind on cards or difficult card resolves? Hard to speculate in a vacuum, can you give specific card names? When a game goes long, as long as you have SDT active, how behind can you be? Sure, not able to counter a Treasure Cruise is annoying, but is that what you mean by behind on cards? When you mention difficult card resolves, my obvious guess would be Liliana, opponent's Jace, Revoker, or maybe Aether Vial, are those cards what you're referring to? If not, what exactly are you referring to?

2. build issue?
The struggle you're describing sounds universal, are they even related to the difference in Ponder vs Legend build specifically? I would understand if you are annoyed by the fact that Snapcaster cannot kill a 3/3 Mongoose while Clique can, that's something specific to the builds themselves.

@Dat_Gentleman:

Having played both versions of Miracles (4-Ponder and Legendary), I understand your dilemma. Personally, I have a lot more experience with the Ponder version and much less with Legendary, so keep that in mind. The strength of the Ponder version lies in its consistency. Very few games you'll go without assembling the CounterTop lock or finding a bunch of interactive spells. Variance is still a thing, but the extra smoothing from 4 Ponders (in addition to 4 extra shuffle effects) and the 3 Snapcasters means you'll seemingly always have the right tool at your disposal. With that being said, it's main weakness is it trades some "wincons" in the 3 Cliques main, which can have an effect on G1. Most Ponder lists run 2 Clique's SB, which means that you can add those in against combo or as just additional evasion threats for G2/G3. Another big difference in the two lists is the land count, with Legends builds running ~23 and Ponder builds running ~21. I was worried at first that losing two lands would make it harder to find them when needed, but again with 4 Top/Ponder/Brainstorm and 3 Jace, you have plenty of digging power. In fact, I found I'd often start with bad, land-heavy hands or flood out with the Legends build whereas the Ponder build feels just right, good openers in general and very few mana screw games.

That being said, the Legends build does give a whole additional layer of interaction (Clique/Venser + Karakas) which can be useful in bouncing troublesome permanents/spells and repeatable hand ripping, I've just not found that it fits my particular playstyle. As far as playstyle for each deck goes, mid-late game they seem almost identical. Early game, I find myself digging heavily with the Ponder build to assemble CounterTop or find a bunch of relevant spells and can keep poorer openers. Early game with Legends, I found you were very dependent on your opener and early draws to carry you into the mid-late game. So, in summary:

TL;DR-

Ponder Build
Pros: Very consistent, good level of interaction, high digging ability and shuffle effects, Snapcaster always seems to have good targets
Cons: Relies more heavily on "hard" wincons (Jace, Entreat) than combat damage, no Legend + Karakas interaction, weaker to Sneak & Show and Reanimator

Legends Build
Pros: High raw power, high interaction
Cons: Less consistent, has a higher tendency to produce clunky openers, has a higher tendency to flood, less digging and shuffle effects

correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the ponder build usually run an extra Jace over the legend build, which should give you easier access to raw card advantage over your opponents? In theory that should help you keep up against stuff like a resolved TC.

Nope, Joe just started testing 1 dig over 3rd Jace a week ago or something. Basically everyone runs 3 Jace.

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Originally Posted by amalek0

correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the ponder build usually run an extra Jace over the legend build, which should give you easier access to raw card advantage over your opponents? In theory that should help you keep up against stuff like a resolved TC.

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I am certain Ein will comment on your question and most people including me will take his words as the final words. In case he's away, I am not even certain if I buy into your logic of 1 more JTMS means easier access to raw CA. Feels like you're asking 2 questions that are not directly related. First is how does Miracle keep up with the CA when opponent resolved a TC? Second, does the 3rd JTMS in any builds count as a way that can keep up CA?

Assume you already have CB-T in play with life total greater than 3, how important is it to keep up the CA if your opponent resolves a TC? If it's a BUG deck resolving TC, it's likely he'll draw into Abrupt Decay, what if it's just UR Delver? My point is that the game really centers around the timing of first TC. If you can stop or delay the first TC and the game gets into mid/late game, I'm certain that your board presence and the card quality provided by SDT will put you in a great position to just undermine the second TC.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

I am certain Ein will comment on your question and most people including me will take his words as the final words. In case he's away, I am not even certain if I buy into your logic of 1 more JTMS means easier access to raw CA. Feels like you're asking 2 questions that are not directly related. First is how does Miracle keep up with the CA when opponent resolved a TC? Second, does the 3rd JTMS in any builds count as a way that can keep up CA?

Assume you already have CB-T in play with life total greater than 3, how important is it to keep up the CA if your opponent resolves a TC? If it's a BUG deck resolving TC, it's likely he'll draw into Abrupt Decay, what if it's just UR Delver? My point is that the game really centers around the timing of first TC. If you can stop or delay the first TC and the game gets into mid/late game, I'm certain that your board presence and the card quality provided by SDT will put you in a great position to just undermine the second TC.

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I very much agree with your assessment. The list I was looking at when I made that comment, regarding someone else asking about keeping up with TC, was an older list that only ran two jaces in the legend build. Regardless, I won't pretend to be knowledgeable about the legend build at all, as *when* I diddle around with something faster than lands, it's usually Ein's latest list sans whatever I don't have/can't borrow.

I would imagine just from a theoretical perspective that TC resolving from a BUG deck is more backbreaking than a UR delver deck, if only because the delver list packs no answer to the virtual CA offered by the counter-top lock, while the BUG deck not only has answers, but is in the business of overwhelming you with CA in some form most of the time. That alone is a reason I would think for the gameplan against BUG to be blanking Abrupt Decay entirely anyway.

On an entirely different track, I have a group that wants to do a fairly casual legacy tournament to drum up some local interest down here at school, so they've arranged for a sunday night casual (free) tournament with random old FNM foils and stuff as prizes. I don't want to take something cutthroat since the idea is to encourage those modern players to jump into a better format, so I was thinking of jamming some kind of four-color miracles build for funsies, to nab abrupt decay, krosan grip, and trygon predator. I know for a fact that nobody around here at school plays a wasteland deck, I expect it to mostly be modern delver with brainstorms etc, maybe some affinity builds with actual artifact lands, one guy on UW miracles who's both very experienced and yet makes the most unbelievably bad play mistakes every game, every format, and a couple of people who were working on MUD lists, in various stages of completion. So, my first thought was to jam straight RUG delver since I can borrow the goyfs, volcs and forces, but then I decided that would be against the spirit of sucking other people into the format. I then landed on the idea of durdling with some kind of 4-color awesomeness that would never hold up in a real metagame.

Off the top of my head, I think I'm gonna try and jam the following:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp

4 tops
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Terminus
3 Jace
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Krosan Grip

as a mainboard. I expect to basically see one real UW miracles build, piloted by what amounts to functionally a brand new legacy player who happens to know what every card ever printed does but can't play around any of them, and a mix of modern affinity upgraded with some lands, modern UR delver with added dazes and brainstorms, and some MUD decks, possibly a bloodmoon build and then 1 or 2 pretty colorless builds. I don't expect any wastelands, so I threw together a manabase prioritizing the ability to fight through blood moons as I fully expect those to be most of the nonbasic land hate.

Just to be clear, I know one of the decks in this small event to contain 3 ancient tombs, lotus petals, and stuff like solemn simulacrum and everflowing chalice. It's NOT a competitive field. I'm going to sideboard a mix of Trygon Predator, Krosan Grips, flusterstorms and a counterspell in case someone here has a storm deck I wasn't aware of or something, and some generic grave hate, probably a RIP and a cage or two. In particular, anybody have ideas for some fun, splashy sideboard cards that don't see much play but could shine in a meta like this? I'm trying to play a bad deck that imitates a good deck in a fun way, so as to make games interesting against a field of scrubs. I know this isn't necessarily productive discussion in the vein of competitive miracles, but I thought it might bring up some relevant discussion on sideboard tech for small, relatively restricted metagames.

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Originally Posted by amalek0

On an entirely different track, I have a group that wants to do a fairly casual legacy tournament to drum up some local interest down here at school, so they've arranged for a sunday night casual (free) tournament with random old FNM foils and stuff as prizes. I don't want to take something cutthroat since the idea is to encourage those modern players to jump into a better format, so I was thinking of jamming some kind of four-color miracles build for funsies, to nab abrupt decay, krosan grip, and trygon predator. I know for a fact that nobody around here at school plays a wasteland deck, I expect it to mostly be modern delver with brainstorms etc, maybe some affinity builds with actual artifact lands, one guy on UW miracles who's both very experienced and yet makes the most unbelievably bad play mistakes every game, every format, and a couple of people who were working on MUD lists, in various stages of completion. So, my first thought was to jam straight RUG delver since I can borrow the goyfs, volcs and forces, but then I decided that would be against the spirit of sucking other people into the format. I then landed on the idea of durdling with some kind of 4-color awesomeness that would never hold up in a real metagame.

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As fun as counterbalance, an instant speed army of angels and an instant speed wrath of god for 1 mana are for us, most people, especially new players, do not like playing against them. CB is especially frustrating for new players since they feel like they are playing against a prison deck (which is something they do not appreciate usually). I would recommend just making some kind blade deck, or 3/4 color goodstuff turbo-delve deck. You can still be interactive, but without giving the newbies the feeling that that their deck is a pile of garbage because you get to just counter all their things for free and kill all their stuff for 1 mana.

There were some good answers from a lot of different people! Well done! I don't need to add too much at all :) (though I might write a very long post / article one day where I go into the super deep details between Legends + Ponder)

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Originally Posted by amalek0

correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the ponder build usually run an extra Jace over the legend build, which should give you easier access to raw card advantage over your opponents? In theory that should help you keep up against stuff like a resolved TC.

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The short version: No. Both variants play between 2-4 Jaces, even though 4 is hardly justifiable with the rise of UR. If you play 2 you are kind of forced to include Dig Through Time which is a good card and valid inclusion, I just don't think that it's good enough. Additionally, I don't buy the argument of "You don't need three Jace, you'll find one of your two with the Dig."

Playing 2 Jace 1 Dig is fine if you expect a very well known metagame where you face blisteringly fast decks round after round. As this isn't the case at a GP or at any local tournament that I attend I havn't really seen the use of Dig, as of now. I also don't think that it's a build specific topic, to be perfectly honest. Both variants don't have too many flexible slots though I guess that if one of the variants could include Dig without suffering too much, it would be Legends as they don't need to include 4 Ponder, which, on the other hand, is an excellent tool to fuel a kind of early Dig.

So no, there is no general answer which version runs more Jace's, nor does it have anything to do with any other strategical consideration.

Sorry for the short answer but I'm just working on a pretty long (and hopefully epic) strategy article that talks about all things UWR. I hope I could help, nontheless and thanks again for the good answers that have been given to the last couple of questions!

Greetings