I had actually just assumed you were being sarcastic in the original post, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman
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I had actually just assumed you were being sarcastic in the original post, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman
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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...3de9ed11f6.jpg
You know why Post is better than Tron? It's not a one-trick pony. Wasteland shmasteland.
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Oh cool, I tried that deck for 2-3 FNMs and really liked it. I can't say that the results were all that much different than my C/g post results. My losses to 4c Loam were a bit narrower than with C/g or mono green. Mono green seemed worse than either this or C/g.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshrac82
My experience on Xmage was that people made waaaay more mistakes than the people I play against in paper. While I think Xmage is better than goldfishing, it hasn't been terribly useful for me. I tried doing competitive only, and finding people with higher ratings. That seemed to help.
I considered cutting white from this version altogether for more consistency but never got around to it. Is the white splash worth it? I did at times find myself hosed because of needing a color and just not having it. No AD maindeck probably helps. I also never tried out the mox diamonds.
How has depths main been for you? I also see no cavern. Cavern has helped me a lot with those blue midrange matchups you are talking about.
Boozecube, would be cool if you could do the primer for C/g. It was you that came up with it, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
About xmage: I think, testing against fair decks on xmage is probably fine. The players might make slightly more mistakes, but overall my results are not that different - i had only a significant drop in winrate against fair decks when i was playing against some of the best players on Magic Online (they are just currently all playing these Czech Pile and similar decks). Testing against combo decks however is completely pointless, especially against Storm and Show&Tell. Against Show&Tell, i already knew that - when i tried that against myself i was losing most of the time and i was beating everyone on xmage, and they all made some obvious mistakes. Against Storm, my results when i played against myself were worse than on xmage, but not that much worse (instead of >80% winrate i had around 60% winrate). But as it turns out, while i'm much better with Storm than the average xmage player, i'm probably still much worse than the average Magic Online player.Quote:
Originally Posted by nimkee
The white splash gives me Knight, Gaddock Teeg and out of the sideboard Ethersworn Canonist (and Lingering Souls, but that's replacable). Knight has always been one of my best and most important cards, without it my winrate against many decks would drop, if you untap with it you have just so many options and can turn around many games. Without Teeg and Ethersworn, the Storm matchup would be completely hopeless - the way to beat Storm is usually the maindeck Teeg to steal a decent number of preboard games, and you want more hatebears postboard when they have removal. You could probably replace the sideboard cards with Trinisphere, but without maindeck Teeg you don't have much hope to consistantly win preboard games - the discard spells help a little bit, but they are much weaker against combo than some permanents. The Mox Diamonds help with color fixing - without them, you just don't have enough colored mana sources (and you can't really play more lands for that). It's a balance between too many Mox Diamonds because they are terrible topdecks and not enough Mox Diamonds for colored mana sources.
Depths has been very good for me, that's the reason why i'm playing 2 Stage and cut the 4th Glimmerpost for that. It's not for every matchup, but wins many games against Delver and should win some games against combo. (And sometimes it wins random games against other decks that you can't win otherwise.)
Also, with the Mox Diamonds it's not that bad to draw Depths when you don't want it.
Cavern is great if you are playing 4 Primeval Titan, but i'm only playing 1. I tested with it for a while, but it didn't do enough and i cut it for Volrath's Stronghold to rebuy my threats instead and liked it better, and then i cut that too to make room for enough colored mana.
About the blue midrange decks, this is how the games i lose usually go:
They play 1-2 Hymn to Tourach early and i'm empty handed, they deal with the 1 or 2 threats i could play so far. Then they get down Jace, draw 2 cards a turn and always have an answer to every relevant card i draw, either a counterspell or just drawstep K-Command. Not having Top really hurts against that, and it's hard to find a good solution - my only idea so far is cutting down my bad draws and increasing the threat density. I think a more traditional post deck or even a Tron deck could be better against that, since they are more consistant at getting Eye and enough mana online, but i don't think even those decks would have won many of the games i lost.
Decks without Hymn to Tourach are easier to beat, but Miracles still has Blood Moon and usually 4x Mentor for a very fast clock, the current lists are also playing Daze and look more like an aggro-mentor deck than traditional Miracles. (And most of these decks have Blood Moon, not just Miracles: Grixis Control always has it, and i have seen it even out of Czech Pile.)
Yep. I've been intending to write a primer for a long time. Life (and kids) keep getting in the way, but it will happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by nimkee
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Just saw this BUG post deck, what do you guys think about it?
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16781&d=303799&f=LE
I’m excited to see someone picked up on the BUG variant. Congrats on your finish bro and If you’re out there I would love to hear your tournament report.Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypads
The list is not very different from the ones I posted on the previous two pages. With the exception that Mr. Steve was not afraid to go to a higher land count, which is probably okay (would like to hear if he got mana flooded a lot?). Furthermore, he cut the FoW completely, which is a reasonable thing to do, since forces take up much space in the deck and don’t play well in a 12 post-build in general. Also, he got rid of all the cheekier stuff like intuition, Jace, etc. which again is a sound choice and makes for a more focused build. I have been an advocate of the cyclonic rift for some time now, and I love the 1x include in the list. Though, I am not sure if cutting down to 2 ponders is the best thing to do. I have increased my ponder count to 4 in the recent list (mainly because I sometimes lacked a target for snappy), but again I could be just wrong. I have also cut the third Eldrazi Titan in my builds, but sometimes I did miss another Eldrazi threat. It is either The promised end or the new Kozilek since the build has a lot of 2 and three CMC drops.
An odd choice was new emmy with no tabernacle. Or did I miss something? Maybe it was a budget choice (totally reasonable...), in which case I would have run kozilek. Kozilek is just great regardless. Garruk Apex Predator would be a funny counter to Jace.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
Looks like he maybe loss to bloodmoon in the finals, cant see that miracles deck otherwise beating him. Maybe some bad mulls or smtg.
I tried to find that name on fb and add him to the group or ask if he was on the source but couldnt find him. Id also like to hear a tourney report.
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Steve is on camera for one match at 1:32:00 here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/172167884Quote:
Originally Posted by porkypads
Honestly he could have simply lost to an early mentor with plenty of cantrips and the right counter magic at the right time. Miracles with Mentor isn't the easiest match up as miracles was previous to that inclusion. Originally stumbling for 5 or 6 turns against miracles was fine because they had some of the worst clocks in magic (snapcaster mage, jace, 1 of entreat they can't find etc). Once mentor got printed that just wasn't the case anymore. Stumbling for 3 turns after a mentor resolved usually just resulted in death.
In a build with no candles / mazes / tabernacle / contortion / all is dust that makes more sense. He does have AD and Deluge though. I think the first game the miracles had 3 force of wills in a row. The two board games were the ones the post player lost though, one to blood moon and one to mentor. He did AD one of the mentors. Blood Moon just does more work against 2 and 3 color decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by mykatdied
It was a good match though.
I am sure it was. All I am saying is that I can easily see how it goes in Miracles favorQuote:
Originally Posted by nimkee
Hi everyone.
Despite not having posted here, I have Posted in several tournaments in the past three months including one yesterday where I won a Mox Emerald so it's time for lists and reports.
The list with which I won the Mox is the following C/g build:
4 Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, Vesuva
7 Forest
2 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas, Tabernacle, Thespian's Stage, Eye of Ugin, Glacial Chasm, Bojuka Bog, Wastes
1 Old Emrakul, New Ulamog, Old Kozilek, New Emrakul
2 Ugin, All is Dust
4 Crop Rotation, Expedition Map, Ancient Stirrings, Candelabra, Warping Wail
3 Pithing Needle
1 Spatial Contortion
SB:
3 Krosan Grip
2 Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Surgical Extraction, Ratchet Bomb
1 Silent Arbiter, Pithing Needle, Spatial Contortion, Dark Depths
This is basically the same list I used the last time I put a report here, with -1 TKS and +1 Candelabra and some minor sideboard changes. However, the lists I have been using between now and then have been different and I'll talk about them separately, but for now the main reason for this build was to have more maindeck removal spells to avoid being run over by early threats. This is the reason for the 4 Warping Wails, a choice that I have disparaged in the past.
Round 1: 2-0 vs. Death and Taxes
Not much of note here. I suspect this guy has never played against 12 Post before because he kept bad hands (i.e. no Wastelands or Ports). Warping Wail is good here and I steamroll him. The Promised End draws out some salt.
Sideboarding: -1 Bog, -1 Expedition Map, +1 Spatial Contortion, +1 Krosan Grip
I board out 1 Expedition Map on the draw because it lines up poorly against Revoker and Mindcensor, whereas Krosan Grip can remove equipment, Revokers, and random Null Rods.
Round 2: 0-2 vs. Death and Taxes
I draw a Needle immediately after he Wastelands my Maze and Prelate on 1 locks out my hand, so I get run over. In game 2 he has 2 Revokers and a Needle to shut off my artifacts and draws into three Ports versus my two Cloudposts, and I mess up the opportunity to Grip the Needle on Candelabra that prevents me from casting Ugin. It's likely that it would not have changed the outcome anyway, since I would have been at 7 life vs. a Revoker with a Sword of Fire and Ice afterward.
Sideboarding: same
Round 3: 2-0 vs. Aluren
Yes, that is indeed a 2-0 in a very unfavorable matchup. He stumbles on mana in game 2 while I get a turn 4 Kozilek into turn 5 All is Dust to clear up Aluren and a bunch of creatures. I get to Warping Wail a Ponder on my own turn that got cast by flash-Shardless-Agent-cascade, which prevents him from comboing in response or finding Force of Will. I Eye for Ulamog and clean up.
Sideboarding: -1 Bog, -1 Tabernacle, -1 Chasm, -2 Maze, -1 Kozilek, +3 Krosan Grip, +2 Trinisphere, +1 Sphere of Resistance
I opt to ignore combat and lean on board wipes to clean up random creatures while bringing in cards to stop the combo. He Forces both my Trinispheres and beats down with some dorks. Ulamog takes out lands but he topdecks Aluren, though with no gas. After a fetch and an attack by Ulamog he has 21 cards in library so I Eye for Emrakul, the Promised End to essentially make him take an extra draw step into an empty library, while playing around the possibility of Parasitic Strix being the bottom card from which he could combo out (not enough mana for old Emrakul).
Round 4: 2-0 vs. Jeskai Stoneblade
I dodge the maindeck Blood Moon by one turn, after which I Promise his End by making him Brainstorm/fetch it away, then on my following turn play new Emrakul and eat all his permanents.
Sideboarding: -1 Bog, -2 Warping Wail, +3 Krosan Grip
He doesn't find Blood Moon and Stoneforge -> Batterskull fails to kill me before Eye of Ugin comes online.
ID in round 5 to lock top 8. I am the fifth seed.
Quarterfinals: 2-1 vs. Lands (Jarvis Yu)
I find Pithing Needle fairly early and put it on Wasteland. I don't remember much of the details of this match, but I think I bounce a token and then assemble 3 Cloudposts and a Candelabra with which to cast the Promised End. Usually new Emrakul is bad against Lands, but he draws a Gamble that I use to get his own Bog and wipe his own graveyard which contains a Loam and three Punishing Fires. Winning then became elementary.
Sideboarding: -1 Tabernacle, -1 New Emrakul, -1 Spatial Contortion, -2 Ugin, +2 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Surgical Extraction
Ratchet Bomb is to answer both Chalice on 1 and Tireless Tracker, and has the advantage of being cheap. All is Dust stays over Ugin because it is cheaper.
I keep a hand with no basics, but with Vesuva, Cloudpost, Glimmerpost, and Surgical. I figure I can bait him into Wastelanding the Cloudpost from which point I can extract his Wastelands and thus buy time to draw relevant cards. This mostly happens, but he finds Ghost Quarter and a Port while it takes me too long to assemble a strong land base to counter them. I end up with an All is Dust and three Warping Wails in hand when I lose to Marit Lage.
In game 3 I grind him down with Bojuka Bogs and find enough Candelabras to fight Ports and Needles for Wasteland and Ghost Quarter. Eventually he gets me down to 6 with three Punishing Fires and blows up my Glacial Chasm with a Wasteland freed up by Krosan Grip. I topdeck Candelabra that allows me to cast old Emrakul to pair with Karakas and win.
Semifinals: 2-1 vs. Topless Miracles (Anuraag Das)
He digs around for a Mentor while I play Cloudposts. Glimmerpost messes up his Mentor math long enough for Ulamog to remove Mentor and gain life courtesy of Swords to Plowshares. Chasm -> Eye -> Emrakul seals the game.
Sideboarding: -1 Bog, -2 Warping Wail, -3 Pithing Needle, +3 Krosan Grip, +2 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Silent Arbiter
He gets me with Blood Moon and has the Force of Will for the desperation All is Dust.
Tabernacle slows his development and Silent Arbiter locks out the monks long enough for Emrakul to close the game.
Finals: 2-1 vs. Death and Taxes
I keep a sketchy hand that has Maze and Candelabra but no untapped mana sources. He Wastelands the Maze before I find a Needle, and I don't find any relevant action in time.
Sideboarding: -1 Bog, -1 Expedition Map, +1 Spatial Contortion, +1 Krosan Grip
I keep a better hand in terms of mana quality but don't find any action. I preemptively play Chasm at 20 life which buys barely enough time for Ugin to clean up the board, Glimmerpost to gain life, and Ulamog to complement Ugin and gain life courtesy of Swords to Plowshares. Eventually I find Eye of Ugin -> Old Emrakul.
I keep a very liquid hand with Wail, Crop Rotation, Forest, Cloudpost, Needle, Ugin, Chasm. He plays a Plains and passes, I play a Forest and pass expecting Thalia. He casts Thalia, I rotate for Cloudpost in response and follow up with Glimmerpost + Needle on the following turn. I play Chasm at a high life total and wait to draw Ugin mana, which of course eventually happens. Ugin clears the board and then pecks away small creatures. Ulamog clears out two Vials to force him to choose equipment or threats to deploy and make Port activations more costly. Ulamog gets Swordsed but Cloudposts enable Emrakul and the Mox is achieved. Since it casts Crop Rotation, Vintage 12 Post is now markedly more reasonable for me.
The store owner (shout-out to The Island Games - Centreville, Virginia) graciously gave out some packs to the top 8. Fittingly, they were Rise of the Eldrazi.
Observations:
1) Number of games where basic Wastes was relevant: 0. Number of hands mulliganed because the basic Wastes wasn't a Forest: 3. This would be a meta call on the prevalence of Magus of the Moon, which going forward I am just going to not care about.
2) 4 Warping Wails is probably still too many. 3 seems correct if you're not concerned about Delver/Pyromancer. I would rather play 2 Wail and 2 Spatial Contortion in the maindeck and neither in the sideboard, at least in a meta that is light on combo.
3) Warping Wail is not that good against Lands.
4) The numbers are otherwise solid, except that a fourth maindeck Pithing Needle could be in order.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I took the same list to the MTGFirst Time Walk tournament the following day but did not do well because I was somewhat mentally drained from the previous day. Consequently I was not at my best on camera and combined with some terrible matchups the event was unremarkable. The camera match is available here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/173780233?t=01h02m51s.
My comments on the match:
Game 1:
1:10:00 - The early phase of Game 1 is all about dancing around the stupid Ghost Quarter that showed up early, which there is no reason to deploy a Cloudpost into until I am sure he will be unable to just Loam it back. I play the Maze here to present a tempting target, since Maze could stop Marit Lage later on. I'm basically waiting for Pithing Needle.
1:11:01 - The real choice on this Ancient Stirrings is between Cloudpost and Glimmerpost. I almost go for the former but opt for Glimmerpost to get above 20 life.
1:11:33 - See, if I had played the Cloudpost earlier he could have GQ'ed it basically for free because of this random Loam.
1:13:52 - Yeah, there's really not much reason for me to play the Port-Candelabra subgame in my upkeep or draw step here now that I have 3 mana sources - 1 Port activation to untap 2 Forests at a moment's notice. In postboard games you would do this to play around Krosan Grip on Candelabra, but it is a suboptimal play here.
1:14:16 - Now I play the Cloudpost because I have a second one, I've removed two Loams, and I don't have much going on.
1:16:46 - With the blowout achieved and the GQ gone, it's now safe to shift gears and tutor up Eldrazi.
1:17:36 - Since I can't play Eye, search, and cast an Eldrazi here or next turn, I can either copy Cloudpost with this Vesuva and hope to do so next turn, or wipe his graveyard to prevent a Loam from recurring the combo and the GQ. Since copying Cloudpost still leaves me vulnerable to Wasteland or Loam, I decide to play it safe and bog him.
1:18:27 - Finally, a Needle. Now that we're safe from Wasteland I play the Eye anyway.
Sideboarding: -1 Tabernacle, -1 New Emrakul, -1 Spatial Contortion, -2 Ugin, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Surgical Extraction
I board +1 Bomb, +1 Grip if there's a possibility that they have Chalice, since Grips can blow up Explorations or Mox Diamonds if there is no Chalice while Ratchet Bomb just sits there, and you never put Ratchet Bomb on 1.
Game 2:
1:27:25 - The off-screen card is a Stage, again to bait the stupid Ghost Quarter and/or copy a useful Land. This game is shaping up poorly because he has multiple Ports and I have no Candelabra. There's a good case to be made for Bogging during my draw step here to snag the Loam while he's tapped out, but I don't want to sacrifice any of my lands. I probably should have rotated the Wastes since Warping Wail is the only reason to care and it's not that good (despite countering the earlier Gamble). Note that this game would be considerably different if the Wastes were a Forest.
I confess an irrational attraction for the play of copying Ports against Lands, but apart from the first time I tried it it has not worked out and this time is no different. The argument for doing so is that by Porting their Ports you effectively free up one of your lands, so you trade 2 irrelevant mana for 1 green mana or 2 irrelevant mana for a Cloudpost, or maybe you can preempt their combo at an opportune moment. The problem is that they usually have more lands than you and your mana is very constrained until it suddenly isn't. I should have copied a Forest here but it just didn't penetrate the brain fog.
1:30:52 - Since he doesn't have Chalice now, I decide he probably doesn't have it period and take out his Exploration to slow down his combo.
1:32:52 - The decision here to Map -> Forest is I think the single biggest contribution to losing the game, but he has too many ports and I need to hold up the Crop Rotation. I decide that there is too little time to blithely wait for a Needle or Candelabra to show up so I search up the Forest. But, this means I don't have the Map later to search up Cloudpost, or Eye, or Karakas, or even Glacial Chasm.
1:33:44 - I extract his Loams because he taps out of green mana, not because it's the best use of the card. The problem is that if he keeps Loaming while I keep drawing air then I will eventually have no mana to answer Marit Lage. I figure he does not have a good hand so I go after the card that accumulates resources for him. His hand is bad, but I might have been better served by letting him dredge into Dark Depths and extracting that.
1:35:45 - He uses an off-screen port on my Stage here, so I respond by copying Karakas. I play a Cloudpost here so that he might GQ it instead of the Stage-Karakas.
1:40:07 - I lose the game with 2x Warping Wail in hand.
Sideboarding: -1 Grip, +1 Bomb. I don't believe he has Chalice, so I only care about Tireless Tracker.
Game 3:
1:43:54 - True to form, Stirrings never finds Needle in the matchup where it needs to.
1:49:03 - I need him to not Loam + Wasteland so I risk a cycling land and Bog him again.
1:50:30 - I want to bait the first Wasteland in order to extract the other one from his hand, but I don't want to risk the one Cloudpost so I play Maze. He doesn't bite and just plays the other Wasteland. I really need the Wastelands both off the table so I throw down the Cloudpost on my next turn, after which he Wastelands the Maze. I am vexed.
1:54:54 - I'm too fixated on extracting the Wastelands that I immediately do so. While this play is defensible (it allows me to play Cloudposts and Eye without fear and win from there, assuming I don't draw air), I think it would have been better to extract the Dark Depths which would secure the draw and still potentially allow me to win if he topdecks poorly. It turns out that he has the combo in hand anyway and this almost gets me.
1:55:51 - Actually, I used Bojuka bog to pay for Surgical and they missed a Glimmerpost trigger so I am actually at 22 at this point. This situation is also why Warping Wail is mediocre in this matchup.
1:56:50 - Naturally I draw Karakas immediately after copying his. The correct play would have been to turn my Stage into a Port, play Karakas, then pass. He would have to Port my Karakas before making the token, but I could then untap my Port and Port his stage in response forcing him to either pass or make the token immediately, at which point I can bounce it. This line only requires one Candelabra so it works through the Krosan Grip that I know he has.
1:57:43 - I untap my Vesuva-Stage-Karakas in his upkeep so that he must choose between Marit Lage, Krosan Grip, and Porting my Karakas.
1:59:06 - This Needle is on Ghost Quarter because it hasn't shown up yet and I expect to need all my lands. Naturally, he draws Krosan Grip. I suppose I can't complain about fortunate topdecks in this match, though. The match ends in a draw.
Thanks for reading. I'm happy to answer any questions.
(double-post for distinct topics)
The list I used between mid-June and this Friday used Living Wish to address multiple key weaknesses of the C/g builds:
1) General issues with consistency.
2) Small number of cards to board out in any given matchup, while the number of cards to bring in is substantially larger.
3) Extreme weakness to Chalice on 1 preboard.
4) Random nature of finding key sideboard cards, specifically Krosan Grip and Silent Arbiter.
5) Basically folds to Surgical on Cloudpost.
6) Boarding out Eldrazi but needing to quickly find a clock in the later game.
7) Game 1 weakness to combo
Living Wish addresses all of these problems:
1) You effectively have more copies of a subset of the relevant cards.
2) You have access to sideboard cards without needing many maindeck cuts.
3&4) Wish for Reclamation Sage or Arbiter.
5) Board out one Cloudpost in matchups where you expect Surgicals.
6) Wish for the Eldrazi.
7) Wish for TKS, Dark Depths, maybe Lodestone Golem.
This is the list I used:
4 Cloudpost, Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
7 Forest
2 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas, Tabernacle, Thespian's Stage, Eye of Ugin, Glacial Chasm, Bojuka Bog, Wastes
1 Old Emrakul, New Ulamog, Old Kozilek, New Emrakul
2 Ugin, All is Dust
4 Crop Rotation, Expedition Map, Ancient Stirrings, Candelabra
3 Warping Wail, Pithing Needle, Living Wish
SB:
Wish targets: [[1 Silent Arbiter, Reclamation Sage, Thought-Knot Seer, Dark Depths, Maze of Ith, Vesuva]]
2 Krosan Grip, Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Surgical Extraction
1 Spatial Contortion
I played this list in three FNMs, two ~70 person events, and five four-round challenges at GP DC for a total of 45 matches and was satisfied but not impressed. The Wish board won a few games that would have otherwise been lost, but seemed not to affect the texture of any particular matchup enough to matter. The main problem is that Living Wish must be cast on your turn which can prevent you from Warping Wail or Crop Rotation, and in most games you just get Maze or Vesuva which is merely an incremental improvement (if that) over just having those cards in the maindeck in place of Living Wish. Furthermore, cutting spot removal for the Wishes weakens the Delver matchup and in general leaves you more vulnerable to early threats (which is why I switched back to a list in the style of TheBoozeCube). On the plus side, opponents often counter the Wish because they can't counter a land you might search up, so you pull counterspells out of their hand to pave the way for real threats.
I did not get to test the wish board against Eldrazi which was my main motivation for the experiment, and I think it could still have merit. In a Delver-less world I would rather play with Wishes. One possibility would be to move some of the large Eldrazi to the board explicitly to Wish for and fill the slots with TKS, World Breaker, Lodestone Golem, or other midrangey threats to hold down the fort. You could also trim Candelabras in this setup since you would have more time to assemble Emrakul mana.
To address the underwhelming performance of Spatial Contortion and Warping Wail I'm considering a white splash for Swords, which has worked well before and opens up some strong sideboard options.
Well. I guess I'm gonna have to look at this list closely. :OQuote:
Originally Posted by k_omega
Congrats!
Congrats!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by k_omega
~~~~~~~~~~~
In other news, they changed how bloodmoon works. Now ETB effects won't trigger. Vesuva will always enter as a mountain and if bloodmoon goes away, It's just a nameless vesuva.
What else top 8'd?Quote:
Originally Posted by k_omega
For those who haven't heard, there's a rules change coming that will significantly affect us. Blood Moon now turns off as-enters abilities. This means:
• Vesuva can't copy things. It will be a mountain while Blood Moon is in play, but won't even tap for mana when it is removed.
• Lands no longer enter tapped. This will frequently improve our ability to hit a board wipe a turn earlier.
• Depths enters with no counters. It will trigger immediately when Blood Moon is gone.
On the whole, I think that this change might actually improve the Dragon Stompy/Big Red matchup. It makes tutoring for Depths under Moon very strong; even with a sorcery-speed wipe like Dust or Ugin, they have no real way to interact with a Marit Lage token. And a Grip/Spatial or O-Stone at end of turn is an immediate win.
On the downside, I think this generally makes Blood Moon stronger out of Miracles SB. Since their clock is usually much slower, playing Vesuvas to copy Cloudposts under a Moon was a great play until you had an answer. Marit Lage is also worse here, since they already run plenty of answers to her.
I'm not sure how it will change the Sneak & Show matchup. On one hand, the Depths interaction will be strong here. On the other, we usually have to prioritize Karakas or Wastes with early tutors, even with an answer to Moon.
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I can't see ever going below 3x Wails, barring a really weird meta. There aren't many matchups where Wail isn't great (although you seem to have been paired against quite a few of them):Quote:
Originally Posted by k_omega
- Lands
- Eldrazi
- Miracles
- Solidarity
- RUG Delver
- Tezzeret
- Enchantress
Aluren is good until Cavern Harpy hits, then Wail is worthless.
But it's always been very strong for me vs a larger portion of any generic meta:
- Show & Tell
- Storm (Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish)
- Elves (NO, GSZ, random creatures)
- Infect (kills all the creatures, can draw a pump spell on your turn, chumps non-Berserk Glistener Elf)
- Non-RUG Delver (Unflipped Delver, Pyromancer, Deathrite, discard)
- Burn (Swiftspear, Chain Lightning, Rift Bolt, Lavamancer)
- Shardless (Hymn, Visions, Lili -2, Deathritre)
- D&T (Revoker, random critters)
- Big Red (Fiery Confluence, Into the Breach)
- Mirror match (Ancient Stirrings, S&T)
- MUD (Metalworker, Revoker)
- Stoneblade/Deathblade (Stoneforge, Deathrite, Council's Judgment)
- Reanimator (Reanimate, Exhume, discard)
- High Tide (Time Spiral)
Given that our matchup vs Miracles is already very strong, the only reason I could see cutting below 3x Wails is if you expect mostly Lands and little of the usual mix of combo and midrange.
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2 D&T, 1 BUG Control, 1 Lands, 1 Miracles, 1 Jeskai Stoneblade, and one deck that I didn't get to see (some kind of combo that lost to D&T, I think). There were a lot of fair decks, which helped.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeckBird
went undefeated with a UG build in a local weekly event. Matchups were BUG Control, Lands, Lands.
// Lands
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [P2] Forest (1)
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [MR] Cloudpost
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [C14] Bojuka Bog
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [PT] Island (3)
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
// Creatures
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
2 [HOU] Nimble Obstructionist
1 [EMN] Emrakul, the Promised End
// Spells
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [LG] Sylvan Library
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [OGW] Warping Wail
4 [EMN] Grapple with the Past
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Interesting list! Could you recap either of your games against lands? I still have not played against lands with any of my Post builds, despite it being in my local meta.
How were the obstructionists and the grapples for you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Round 1 vs BUG was heavily won on the back of grapple -> Snap -> Grapple -> Titan chaining. Game 1 I cast 5 grapples and fizzled 5 drs casts with either the Snapcaster or returning the Cloudpost (people always exile highest priority lands with drs, and your grave first). Game 2 I only sided in a Tabernacle, similar result. Massive value chain from Sylvan Library into Grapple into snapcaster abuse. Obstructionist saves -2's on Liliana multiple times, which forces Jace to -1 multiple times and lilly to do virtually nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by nimkee
Round 2 vs lands was pretty brutal for lands. Game 1 I had candelabra to counter ports on my karakas, Obstructionist was huge. I hit the wasteland with obstructionist, and then I bog'd mainphase Loam + waste. Then Grapple into Obstructionist to stop Dark Depths for 1 more turn. He mainphase makes the 20/20 to prevent stifle affects, and I map for karakas on my turn, and Titan wins it soon thereafter. Game 2 was him with Trinisphere turn 2, me with show and tell titan turn 4 with obstructionist on turn 3 for the wasteland.
Round 3 vs lands was slightly rougher for me. Game 1 I get with candelabra countering port, and a timely bog when wasteland + loam were in the grave. Grapple into Snap into Grapple into bog recursion was huge and ground the game out easily once I hit his recursion. Game 2 He gets an early 20/20 before I have a chance. I believe it was Diamond, Diamond, Loam, x2 combo pieces, exploration. 20/20 on turn 2 on the play. No crop for me. Game 3 He has a Trinisphere, but I quickly get candelabra + cloudpost with obstructionist saving ghost quarter/waste attempts that quickly are surgical/bog'd away. Sylvan Library again is clutch.
These sound like some interesting games. I didn't realize Grapple was an instant until reading your write up, and obstructionist seemed kind of oddball until reading about it. Thank you for taking the time to write this up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Anyone know who Killian is? He apparently won a piece of Power recently with a Cg list. I saw him on camera a day or so ago on twitch, round 3 (SnapCasters). It was a match with lands that went to 3 and turns but over was a very nuanced slug fest. I was impressed with his play.
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You can see my report on winning the Mox Emerald tournament and my comments on that camera match in my posts on the previous page of this thread. I'm pleased that you were impressed - all I see are the mistakes!Quote:
Originally Posted by nimkee
I completely missed that write up thanks! I still have yet to play against lands with post. The matchup looks very nuanced, especially from my lack of experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by k_omega
The wastes has been useful to me in the past as we had a ton of dragon stompy in my meta so countering firey confluence was useful, or a ponder or sfm through other oddball local decks. I also play a one of endbringer and world breaker (has saved me so many games...its amazing) so it helps with them.
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Hello!
Jeremiah Rudolph, internet moonlighter as KareBaron, here announcing my brave new leap into the streaming verse starting tomorrow morning 9/21 @ 9 am EST (2 pm GMT / 3 pm CET).
My starting streams will have a heavy focus on MTG playtesting the entire Legacy meta of the last 2 months in order to produce a dynamic google sheet of every deck's win percent versus every other deck in the meta. This Mega product will show individual archetype matchups, an overall-versus-the-meta win percentage, and of course a Leaderboard.
Whether looking for a place to lurk and lounge, or looking for nonstop deck techs and/or a desire to have me run your deck through specific matchups or the whole meta gauntlet, come join what I hope will become a budding community for all things magic and gaming in general.
https://www.twitch.tv/karebaron
Look forward to seeing you
Should clearly just be titled "JerBear" but that is neither here nor there!
I'm just wondering, but why hasn't the Primer been updated? it is suggesting SDT but it was banned almost 5 months ago.
My online moniker of "Kare" has long been a homonymic allusion to Jer, and KareBaron is a carebear dadesque joke. So we're on the same page. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by mykatdied
The deck development has been mostly in the front pages for awhile now. People linking their recent successes and ideas. Check out the last 5 pages for a good idea. I can update the main page in a few days though to include a version I've been winning with locally and online on my twitch channel http://www.twitch.tv/karebaronQuote:
Originally Posted by dougmtg
@Rock Lee: Did you miss Pithing Needles? In my area we see Wasteland all over the place. I also noticed your 61/14 Main/Board split. Were you happy with that? Obstructionist and Grapple look genius to me...! Congrats on the great finish.
I'm probably going to play a variant in a week, but I feel like I need 3, or even better...4 Needles to be good here. We usually see 18 to 24 players. Rishadan Port (33%), Wasteland (66%), Dark Depths (16%), Jace TMS (50%), Liliana OTV (33%), DRS (66%), Aether Vial (8%), and random stupid stuff are all over us in San Diego. What would you do to add Needles? -1 Expedition Map, -1 Brainstorm, and -1 Warping Wail seem like the only things that could be cut, and I don't like losing any of those. That's assuming that you wouldn't just press forward without them.
Dave
Last weekend, I won a local 21-person tournament with this UG brew:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Dark Depths
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Repeal
4 Crop Rotation
1 Sylvan Library
4 Expedition Map
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
Sideboard:
4 Flusterstorm
3 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Disclaimer: This build is an experiment, a blend of aspects of various other 12Post builds that I mixed together. It started by being based on the structure and consistency of theboozecube's colorless green build. Within his manabase, I felt like the 7-8 basic Forests present could very easily accommodate a second color, and I still love abusing Brainstorm and its little brother Ponder. It's meant to be played more like the colorless green build than the traditional UG build. I don't claim this list to be superior to any other list, and I don't expect anyone to agree with my choices. But the experiment has so far been fun and successful.
A few pages back, I posted my first iteration of this deck, which I took to GP Vegas untested and still managed to make day 2 with. Compared to the previous list, this one feels much more polished. Most importantly, I removed All Is Dust and Maze of Ith from the maindeck and replaced them with Repeals and an Engineered Explosives, versatile early-game removal pieces that I am more familiar with. During the GP, I regretted not having removal that cost less than 7 mana and was upset at myself for not thinking to throw in the usual Repeals that I almost always have included before. Bounce is a simple, fundamental benefit of including blue, and Repeal itself is easy on the color requirements and even plays well with the multiple Candelabras in the deck.
Another key addition to this list is the Thespian's Stage and Dark Depths combo. I've never been a fan of Dark Depths in any 12Post build, as going for the combo requires so many resources and detracts from your main ramping plan. But since this deck doesn't have my usual Show and Tell for speed, I was enticed to try the combo in order to have a relatively quick way to steal a game. Full sets of Crops and Maps in addition to all the blue cantrips should make assembling the combo not too difficult. Since I want the combo to be available any time the opportunity arises (and since the combo only requires two card spaces in the deck), I decided to keep the Depths in the maindeck.
I won't go into too much detail, but here's a brief write-up of my matches during the tournament:
Round 1 - BUG + R Leovold Control
Other than some Hymns, the match seemed easy as he wasn't running Wastelands.
In: +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Tabernacle
Out: -1 Bog, -1 Map
I honestly can't remember much of this match, other than he mulliganed to five one of the games and I never really felt in danger at any time.
1-0
Round 2 - Elves
Elves was already a difficult matchup for 12Post before, and without Show and Tell for an early Titan into Chasm, this version would struggle even more. The general plan is to ramp as quickly as possible to Ugin, or make a Marit Lage token ASAP. Hide behind a Glacial Chasm if need be. He was way too quick for me the first game.
In: +4 Flusterstorm, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Tabernacle
Out: -2 Ulamog, -1 Bog, -1 Repeal, -1 Needle, -1 Map
Some extra pointers for the Elves matchup:
- Name Deathrite Shaman with Needle. Not only will you slow their mana production by doing so, you will also cut off their way of finishing you off when you get to the point of hiding behind Glacial Chasm.
- If you have the lands and Crop Rotation to spare and they don't have a Gaea's Cradle out yet, get your Tabernacle out early. You should be able to buy enough time until they draw into a Cradle.
- Use Flusterstorms on their early Glimpses and GSZ's. Natural Order is much less likely to be countered, unless their mana is already tied up via Tabernacle.
Those are some principles that I try to follow in the matchup. In the second game, I was able to ramp very quickly into an Ugin. Game 3, I mulliganed to a six card hand with two Cloudpost, a Candelabra, Ugin and some Crop Rotations. I figured that if I lived to my third turn, didn't have my Candle destroyed and was able to either draw another locus or green source, I would have enough mana to drop the Ugin. Luckily, I drew a third Cloudpost on the critical turn and swept the board with Ugin. My opponent was extremely salty after the loss.
2-0
Round 3 - Esper Delver
I hadn't seen this variation of Delver before (basically white for Swords and Zealous Persecution in the board, with Deathrites, TNN and Anglers as the creature suite), but I saw some lists online afterwards so maybe it's been around and I just haven't seen it. Game 1 I got to a slow start and I didn't see a single Wasteland or Delver, just a True-Name and later Gurmag Angler that started beating me. I put him on something much slower than a Delver deck. I only had the chance to cast one bomb, an Ugin which he countered.
In: +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Tabernacle
Out: -1 Bog, -1 Map
Game 2 had a crazy start and ended up going long. I hadn't yet seen Wasteland, so I named Deathrite with my first Needle. Over the next couple of turns, he got a Delver out at last, plus a Deathrite, then he countered two of my early spells with Daze (another card I did not expect nor see the first game). While he had his two creatures out and no lands in play, I Crop Rotated for a Tabernacle and was able to remove his two threats. Then over the course of the game, he ended up using all four of his Wastelands. He Surgically Extracted my Crop Rotations and Brainstorms. I finally ended up winning a long game with an Ulamog.
Game 3 he beat me down quickly Delver style.
2-1
Round 4 - Turbo Depths
He's the local Depths master and I haven't played this matchup yet, so I am intrigued for the coming battle. I think this matchup needs to be treated like the Lands matchup: tip-toeing around their board while jockeying for a means to have an answer to their Marit Lage token.
Game 1 my opening hand had two Pithing Needles, which I knew would likely end up naming either Stage or Hexmage. Instead of casting one, I decided to pass and wait to see which route he would take. On his first turn he played a Sylvan Safekeeper, so on my next turn I changed my mind to name the Safekeeper. I figured that without his Safekeeper, I could prevent him from winning by simply targeting the Marit Lage (with Karakas or Repeal) instead of worrying about the creation of the token. He never ended up making the token though, and I was able to ramp into Kozilek before he could figure out a win.
In: +3 Revoker
Out: -1 Bog, -1 Ugin, -1 Explosives
Based on the effectiveness of Needle on Safekeeper in game 1, I decided to load up on Needle effects for game 2. An early Revoker first named Safekeeper, but I was unable to find any other Needle effects after the first. He did find his Ghost Quarter and then used his Stage to copy and make a second Ghost Quarter. The first quarter destroyed my Karakas. At some point later in the game, I was able to play an Eye of Ugin, use it to make one black mana via his Urborg, and then cast a Kozilek. The key moment was then my bluff, where I played a Tropical Island and passed the turn, hoping to make him think I was holding up Repeal (I did not have it, even after drawing the four Kozilek cards!). He used the second Ghost Quarter to destroy my Tropical, so I searched up my basic Island. Then he went to his turn without making the token, effectively falling for my bluff! To make things even better, he used a Thoughtseize on his turn, seeing that I did not have it after all. The following turn, I was able to play a Candelabra and then cast Emrakul for the win.
3-1
Round 5 - ID for Top 8
3-1-1
Top 8 - Burn
My opponent kept insisting that 12Post was an abysmal matchup for Burn. I kept trying to tell him that no other deck had a card as backbreaking as Price of Progress to me, being able to kill me in one fell swoop. Not to mention, my opponent was siding Blood Moon, which is unusual for Burn. Nevertheless, he was convinced that Burn had almost no chance of beating Post. For whatever reason, his misunderstanding of the matchup really peeved me.
Game 1 he got stuck on one land and only sent Goblin Guides and Swiftspears at me. I was able to ramp quickly ti ab=n Eldrazi for the win.
In: +4 Flusterstorm, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Tabernacle
Out: -3 Needle, -2 Map, -1 Bog
The second game, he got off to a great start, killing me a turn before I would have been able to cast Ulamog. Just like my weakened matchups against combo decks due to a lack of Show and Tell, the Elves matchup aksi suffers without the speed provided by Show and Tell.
Game 3 was finally a close, even affair. When my opponent cast a Sulfuric Vortex on his third turn, I was at 11 life and had two Cloudposts and a Candle in play already. My fourth turn, I went to 9 life from the Vortex, played another locus land and cast Ulamog. The most obvious permanent to choose to exile might seem like Sulfuric Vortex. However, if I were to remove two of his three Mountains instead, I could keep him from casting the lethal Price of Progress if he were unlucky enough to miss another land drop. So I chose two Mountains. His following turn, he missed his next land drop (success so far!) and was stuck on one land. The Vortex was still a problem, though I either needed to remove it or win the damage race against him. On my next turn, I drew my second Ulamog! I attacked with the first, cast the second one to remove the Vortex and his last Mountain in play, and then followed everything up with a Glimmerpost for some life cushion. He played a Mountain the following turn, then on my turn I played a Map to search for Karakas, recast Ulamog after attacking and keep him from ever reaching his second mana. What a close one!
Top 4 - Esper Delver
This was a rematch against the one player who beat me in the third round. Game 1, he mulliganed to five cards and it wasn't really close.
In: +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Tabernacle
Out: -1 Bog, -1 Map
Game 2 he mulliganed to five again, but the result would end up being very different. On his second turn, he Wastelanded my Tropical Island and then Surgically extracted it, even hitting one copy in my hand! He would later Surgical all my Crop Rotations. At one point, when he had one card in hand, I loosely walked a Map into a Spell Pierce. Also, I drew a Pithing Needle the turn after he Wastelanded a critical Cloudpost. A Gurmag Angler finally allowed him to complete his comeback.
Game 3 went long but much more typical. When I had a basic Forest and Island out and no other lands in hand, I was able to dodge Daze and Force and resolve a crucial Sylvan Library. A second Ulamog, after the first got Swords'd, plus an Ugin finally topped a crazy match.
Finals - Elves
Another rematch, this time against the salty Elves player that I beat in the second round. Game 1 he got an incredible start, winning on his second turn.
In: +4 Flusterstorm, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Tabernacle
Out: -2 Ulamog, -1 Bog, -1 Repeal, -1 Needle, -1 Map
Game 2 went the opposite way, this time as a blowout for me. He started out slow and I got out a third turn Ugin via multiple Cloudposts and a Candle.
Game 3 was fittingly a close game with no clear leader throughout most of it. When he first got a creature out, I Cropped for my Tabernacle. He didn't have a Cradle so he was slowed considerably. I took some damage from attackers before I was able to land an Ugin. He had a couple of Wirewood Symbiotes out to preserve some of his elves, but I figured that as long as I could control any of his "breakout" spells (Glimpse or Natural Order) then I could ride Ugin to victory. A Flusterstorm in hand countered a Glimpse when he was one mana short. I also had a Repeal in hand that, combined with absurd amounts of mana, could have bounced a Craterhoof Behemoth that could have hit the battlefield. A few turns later, a hardcast Emrakul sealed the deal completely.
So there you have it - the results of my latest deckbuilding experiment. Interestingly enough, I never ended up creating a Marit Lage token this tournament and never felt the need to. However, I like having the option available and will continue testing the combo in the deck. Also, I really miss having Show and Tell available, but incorporating Show and Tell would most likely require adding in Primeval Titan, which would change the foundation of the deck entirely. I have a lot of doubts about being able to piece together Sbow and Tell combos effectively without the consistency of Top. Plus, I am really loving the streamlined and consistent playstyle, if a bit more linear than before, of the structure of this and the colorless green builds.
I'll be back to ask some advice and provide more updates on this!
@Dave
I've tested Rock's build. I can say with confidence that the build works well. I reckon he didn't include pithing needle because of grapple since you can "always" get your lands back. With obstructionist and snappy, one can EOT ambush planeswalkers, which means that the build handles these threats in its fashion, without the need for the pithing needle. Though, I do not understand how Rock is winning against STORM, with only GY hate. A lot of times one needs a counter not just GY hate to overcome combo. Maybe I'm playing it wrong, but it seems that the sideboard could use some countermagic.
The build is very grindy, despite that it runs SnT. Even though I had success with it online, I'm not sure it's quite my playstyle. Maybe I'm not used to playing with my GY as well.
@into_play
Congrats on your finish.
Agreed on the bounce. Though, I've replaced my repeals with the cyclonic rift in all variants running bounce ever since the top ban. True, it doesn't draw you a card, and it's a shame you can't bounce your stuff, but besides of bouncing your usual threats it overcomes chalice and can "board wipe." It's also better against moon/magus and other larger CMC threats. In my case (I'm running Snappy) it's also easier to snap-cast it. Maybe it would work even better in your more ramp orientated build. Repeal lost a lot of utility with the top ban (look-draw-repeal) was just a fantastic play.
When I'm heavily relying on blue, I tend to run at least two basic islands. Maybe you can also try running a rouge copy of perilous vault, which has been a great inclusion for me, despite the more "casual" nature of the card. Again, your ramp heavy build seems it could facilitate this card well.
P.s. There's also the Sorcerous Spyglass you can run instead of revoker. Just a thought, I didn't test this card yet. Though, it seems that it would be stronger in the nic-fit version.
@MechTactical, Thanks. That's good info and the reasoning seems sound. I think he just ignored Wastelands and Rishadan Ports, both of which were wrecking me. I had a horrible time vs. Lands w/Exploration and vs. SmallPox Depths. Absolutely destroyed me with discard.
I "feel" like the builds with Show & Tell are strongest, based on the history of the posts in this thread, but then I see a Mox won with a mono-green build. I tried the mono green and wished it had been C/u/g. I also feel like Oracle of Mul Daya deserves a place in the deck, but I digress.
Thanks again,
Dave
Nimble Obstructionist stops the storm trigger, and also can't be discarded by Duress.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechTactical
I've also found the C/g builds wanting blue for card selection, and I think into_play's build has merit (haven't tested it myself yet). Playing Oracle requires some number of Brainstorms and Sylvan Library, since your deck is usually less than half lands by the time you cast Oracle so blind flips are unreliable. I definitely would not just jam Oracle into the C/g build I won the Mox with.Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHernandez
I played with oracle before and it can provide some great CA. I played it in builds with fetches and gsz so that helped in terms of draw manipulation as well. That build of course ran library.
I tried 2 oracles in Cg with non of the above mentioned cards. It wasnt BAD. You have plenty of ways to clear the top of your deck for a fresh look. Often I'll have gotten a couple of lands off of oracle by the time its removed, sometimes even 4 or 5. There are a lot of shuffle effects in C/g or any Post deck really.
I didnt like that it added to the colored card count when it came to ancient stirrings. I ended up swapping 2 for more warping wail and an endbringer. Endbringer can be very good in a variety of matchups.
Oracle can be helpful with a bloodmoon out. It sometimes lets you ramp faster into money cards. Thats something. You can hit a land drop and then if you brick off the top grab smtg with map and play it.
Its best in a gsz build but its not bad in Cg. There are just better cards.
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Maybe I'm missing something here, but how are opponents needing four or five cards to remove a single Oracle?Quote:
Originally Posted by nimkee