Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I agree. It's shitty they aren't giving you props. But he might have forgotten it started as a list online. Easy to do if he got the deck from a friend.
Was there a D&T thread that existed before this current one?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I agree. It's shitty they aren't giving you props. But he might have forgotten it started as a list online. Easy to do if he got the deck from a friend.
Was there a D&T thread that existed before this current one?
Whenever someone asks me about the deck, I say a guy in Florida developed the deck to the point he felt comfortable sharing it and it grew from there into the several iterations that it now supports by a guy named Finn on The Source and I give them the website and tell them to check out the primer and if it's under the Decks to Beat or Established at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I'm sorry that you aren't getting credit for the creation/innovation that your baby has done for the Legacy format. It sucks not getting the credit when you're obviously the innovator. Anyone who knows their stuff knows YOU brought this deck forth from love and commitment to making it great. There have been other champions of the deck, but I don't think anyone has been as passionate about it than you.
You have my props for bringing to light one of my favorite decks that I've ever had the privilege to play. Heck it even won me a Black Lotus the first time I ever played the deck! At Jupiter Games back when it was the best place to play in the North East... Proceeded to sell it back to the store for a lot of the deck foil, so I've retained the value (3 Karakas, 3 MPR Wastelands, 1 Guru Plains for the friend who lent me the entire 75, 4 Foil SFM, etc.)
@Finn
Sure seems shitty for others to take credit for DnT, but it's the story Tomas has said many times. It's more than likely his friend took your deck and took credit for it without telling him. That said, it sure would be nice if people actually credited you for it. The evidence is quite clearly there. The closest I've ever seen you to being directly credited for it was Ari Lax's segment on the "Inside the Deck" segment on DnT, even though the narrator ignored that and went with "no one knows who designed the first DnT deck"... absolute horseshit.
In any case, everytime Sean and I (cohost on our podcast) play DnT at sanctioned events, we always write "Finn" as the deck's designer. It's sort of like with classic cars. Your 2+2 Mustang looks to the layman no different than a GT350 Fastback, but those in the know what time it is, and I think everyone here is in the same boat.
I really like 3 and have even been testing 4. Sometimes you just need a removal spell, and even if you're going to 5-6 you're going to have games where you don't draw them. 7-8 and you now get to side into a Jund deck when you feel like it. I also take out Thalia more and more when I'm playing these games - you don't need to tempo them out, you just kill literally every threat they play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
Infect is a bad matchup, but one that can actually be turned into a totally fine matchup with your sideboard - which is generally not true for bad matchups. Path is usually fantastic against Eldrazi, though going deep on it does make you a bit softer to Chalice.
Also really like having 3 Path vs:
All Delver
Lands (protection from a fast combo without giving them 20 life)
Mirror (feels unfair to have 2x the removal)
Reanimator
Burn
I feel like that's enough of the field that it's really not that hard to justify using 3 SB spots for it.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/t...eath-and-taxesQuote:
Originally Posted by MasterBlaster
Iatee, Thomas knows. I must suck at using the search feature on this site because I can not turn up any results. But he and I have spoken about it on this very thread or possibly Salvation's. We just hadn't in years.
Thing is, he likes being associated with the deck and it is apparently against the narrative that the deck's origins have nothing to do with him.
Anyway, thanks for letting me vent, fellas.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Marungo, I am so pleased you had a good experience with THC - especially against BUG. I was unable to see her effect except during tests. Congratulations on your placing.
I think this is what you were referring to:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/t...page=186#c4664
Ugh, it's painful to read that excerpt from that article. It's just straight up lying. Very dishonest and bad mannered. I would've grown tired from legacy did I not stumble upon D&T that I enjoyed playing so much and still do, and you deserve a lot of the credit for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...ea3a30e9e6.jpg
New Thalia plus Crackdown was hard for RUG Delver to beat lastnight.
New to the deck but went 3-1 at a local.
Beat Enchantress ( Port is good ), NicFit, and RUG Delver. Lost to shardless who drew 4 decay plus Deluges .
Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk
List for Reference:http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/07-05-16-imperial-taxes/
I was wondering what your thoughts on Grand Abolisher in Imperial Taxes was? I tried many other things in the slot and nothing really has worked well. The reason I chose Abolisher is that it can be fetched with Recruiter as well as be cast off of Cavern on Human like many other things in the deck. It also has the added benefit of not dying immediately to Dread of Night. In legacy, I think Abolisher's ability is really strong because it prevents your opponent from doing most things on your turn, which slows down many decks by a lot.
So, What are all your thoughts?
It seems pretty narrow. Okay against Miracles, but most of the Delver counterspells we care about are going to be t1 or t2 FoW / Daze. And making the opponent's removal sorcery speed isn't worth a card.
If you want a tutorable flex 2 drop, I'd say the following are the only ones powerful enough (and with broad enough application) to deserve consideration:
Relic-Warder
Containment Priest (meta call)
Ethersworn Canonist (meta call)
Kor Skyfisher (this card is no joke and I think everyone should play it)
I really like Kor Skyfisher for it being an evasive beater with decent stats that you can rather carelessly tutor up with Imperial Recruiter, since you'll probably be abl to bounce it anway. It's one of the first threats I go for whenever the board state and matchup don't make a more definite answer or threat necessary.
I also love the one-of Fiendslayer Paladin I decided to run mainboard a few weeks ago. I've had it dominate Lands, Punishing Rock, Burn, and RUG Delver since then.
Tournament report with Imperial Taxes: https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...nament_report/
My friend plays D&T and I was wondering how the new Thalia was working for you guys. I played the deck in a locals and didn't see her all tournament. I was trying 1 or 2 main (can't really remember) . In theory, it should be busted. The only thing I see wrong would be her cost. 3 mana is a lot outside of vial, and she could take up a whole turn.
http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=466Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfThePanda
Here are my condensed thoughts on THC. It's probably nothing new to most of you, as I and others have already pretty much discussed everything in here or on MtG:S to some degree.
Seems pretty much in line with what I expected. She's a brutal haymaker and having a bunch of dorks to power her out T2 should be great. Not to mention the Exalted triggers in Maverick. Who's going to block 5/4 first strike? Not many. Those decks also have some outs to the problems you outlined - KOTR, big Oozes and the like. GWx Heretic sounds really lovely atm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
Phil, enjoying your site.
Re: THC fitting better into something with accel, sure that is ideal. In the long run though, she will probably still find her home in D+T primarily simply because she fits in perfectly with what this deck wants to do, and D+T is clearly well-positioned in the meta to take advantage of her utility.
More on that; let us not forget that this deck does not need to win in a landslide. The caveat of course, is that you are going to die to Elves and Sneak Attack and Reality Smasher from time to time before you get to three mana. I am happy to give a few of those away in exchange for the all the wins we get from having so many angles of disruption all in the same deck.
Also, my testing feels light against Miracles and Eldrazi. Anyone have data on how THC impacts those matchups?
--PandaKing, I hope this conversation has answered your questions in some fashion.
Whats your guys opinions on containment priest vs hallowed moonlight? Moonlight hits entreat the angels and only last a turn while priest blocks up our vials indefinitely?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellysandall
Priest can be vialed in, so you wont have to have 2 mana open. The fact that it shuts down afterwards is irrelevant for me, since most decks you want to play it against ,after priest enters the battefield, you are so far ahead it should be ok to finish the game.
I'm primarily a dirty Infect player, but I run me some DnT on occasion. I tried a pretty stock list with 2x THC in the 3 CMC Flex slots (along with 2x Mirran Crusader) at a 70 person Win a Mox event in Atlanta a few weeks ago. I played Eldrazi 2x during the event and she was pretty good, especially when you are on the play, she can be really devastating against them. Honestly, the best part about her I found was that when you get the flavor-fail combo of her and her other self, nothing in the Drazi deck can attack you. 5 power First strike is a beating. Also, any of the equipment on her makes her impossible to single block, even with Reality Smasher, which IMO is a big deal. It seems we can usually hold parity against all but the Eldrazi nut hand, and having a creature that can attack safely with a SoFI or Jitte is pretty baller.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
I agree with Finn's assessment that she will almost certainly become a mainstay of the deck in some capacity. She seems to fill a role much like Mirran Crusader, but against different decks. Crusader obviously being better against Rock decks (not to say THC is a slouch in those matchups), and THC being better against Drazi and various combo decks (Storm, Dredge, Sneak and Show). Long term, I bet we see her a bunch as she just fits so well with the deck's gameplan.
With miracles being such a large presence and perceivably a bad match up you dont think hallowed moonlight is worth it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Farone
Personally I don't think that effect is worth it. If you even resolve it. If hallowed moonlight is going to make or break that game, you likely already lost.
Are you guys playing Eiganjo Castle now? Making Thalia 2.0 Lightning Bolt proof seems pretty good, especially with the amount of Grixis Delver around nowadays. Apart from that, I'm currently trying 3 Cavern of Souls. I feel consistently dropping a Thalia 1.0 or 2.0 turn 2/3 vs Delver Decks through Fow/ Daze is pretty damn good, to the point that it can win you the game itself. Thalia 2.0 being human also helps with having enough actual humans to cast with Cavern (alongside with Mom, Thalia 1.0, Crusader).
I've dropped lands like Flagstones of Trokair/ Horizon Canopy for them order to have enough basics to play (8 currently), and while I've had games with 2 Caverns and 0 Plains, I feel like 3 Caverns is still pretty good. What are your thoughts?
3 Caverns has been great in Imperial, but it has the extra bonus of color fixing + the deck is more than 50% humans. I think it's viable even in Mono-W, but only if you play exactly 0 Serra Avengers. Flickerwisp also can be a little awkward, but you do have the option of resetting the Cavern with it.
True, I think its pretty good in Imperial Taxes. However, I think we can still play 3 alongside with Avenger/ Flickerwisp. Most of the time, you'll only need one Cavern on human (maybe two if one gets wastelanded). You can set the other two Caverns on Angel/ Elemental, depending on the situation. You still have 8 basics, 3 Karakas, Eiganjo Castle and Vials to cast/ get into play Flicker or Angel. The main idea behind playing 3 Caverns is getting Thalia 1.0/2.0 safely into play turn 2 or 3, which makes her crucially better. Having to wait an extra turn for Vial can easily be punished, especially by tempo-oriented decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I have played literally thousands of games with your manabase (3 Caverns / 12 pure white sources) and I can tell you the Cavern will definitely cost you some games over time if you run Avenger. Try it if you don't believe me, but 3 Caverns stretch the manabase to the limits for Imperial already. (Otherwise I'd be playing 4.)
Cavern's a very powerful card, I've been pushing it as much as anyone...but you have to be willing to give up some of your dependency on WW and non-humans if you want to get away with such a greedy (and high-powered) manabase.
True, Ive had games where double cavern fucked me up and even made me lose the game. It definitely is greedy, but imo still worth it.
What about Eiganjo Castle?
Eiganjo castle is far from unreasonable and is probably worth a shot. I just have never wanted it in the matchups where it's good cause it requires mana up and bolt decks (typically delver) are typically good matchups anyhow. Worth testing? Definitely. I just don't like too many wasteable or blood moonable white lands.
Other thing I want to discuss is the miracles question. Not hallowed moonlight, I think the card is terrible and cost 3 with Thalia, but the idea that miracles is a bad matchup. Do you guys agree with that cause I feel once you get good with the deck we're slightly favored? Nothing huge but slight favorites
With experience miracles is laughable at best, even at worst. If you listen to TEs recent interview that was how he guaranteed top 8 at gp Strausburg. He got into the draw bracket and beat miracles 3 or 4 matches after that. I think with enough experience we can make miracles a very favored match up to slightly favored at worstQuote:
Originally Posted by Marungo
If you want to stick it to Entreat the Angels/Tokens, play Ratchet Bomb. That card is really really good against quite a lot of decks, Miracles included.
Containment Priest is miles better than Hallowed Moonlight.
Yeah I've won my last 8 matches or so in tournaments to miracles. I was just wondering cause I know some people have differing views on things like matchups (such as people who say we are favored against ANT). I love playing miracles but didn't want to assume everyone had the same experienceQuote:
Originally Posted by mykatdied
For every colorless mana-producing land you run, you reduce your ability to cheat in equipment with Stoneforge, cast StP in a timely fashion, and cast double white cards (including Council's Judgment, Cataclysm, Gideon). I don't think it's worth going too deep to improve the Miracles matchup (it's already even to good to start with). Cavern is, I'd argue, actively bad in most matchups that aren't Miracles. I've said time and time again that the card would likely be unplayable if Miracles wasn't a thing. Our deck is mathematically light on white sources. Vial lets us cheat a bit, but there is no reason to push it. Once you start factoring in Wastelands, Blood Moons, and the like, extra non-basics start to seem less appealing. In order for a huge number of Caverns to be appealing, you have to be darn close to tribal, something along the lines of what Iatee et al. have been playing with the splash.
Hallowed Moonlight is probably unplayable. Containment Priest is so much better against things like Dredge, Reanimator, Elves, and Sneak and Show that the upside of being able to hit Entreat is just not worth it. I know that I'm certainly not holding up mana for that all game; I'd rather have a Warping Wail at that point so it could hit Terminus as well. It also doesn't play well with Vial and Thalia.
I played Miracles a couple of times now and I think the matchup is by far not as good as you state it to be. You have to take into account that Miracles is per default the best deck in the format. Hence, people (including me) pick it up sometimes but have no idea what to do against certain matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by mykatdied
In my experience it all really boils down to Aether Vial. Against Miracles I tend to mulligan very aggressively to Aether Vial because otherwise Counterbalance is live. But other than that, it's difficult to win against multiple sweepers and spotremoval if you don't happen to be able to bounce your legendary creatures around with Karakas and Vial, or simply stick Mother of Runes which is also rather mediocre in that matchup. But multiple StoPs with multiple Snapcasters are extremely annoying.
I won almost all the games where I had Aether Vial and I can just recall winning one game without. I lost one game with Aether Vial because Sulfur Elemental (and then he had StoP, StoP, Snapcaster for Batterskull that I flickered 3 times).
But I realized that I underrated Sword of Fire and Ice in that matchups as it transforms every creature into a serious threat (Jace-proof and can't be chumped by Snapcasters) which allows you to apply pressure without overextending.
Just debuted my new THC tech at a weekly - 8x thalias and 3x ancient tombs maindeck. Clean 4-0 sweep, turn 2 THC wins games on the spot.
Additional benefit of turn 1 revoker, turn 1 warping wail and general speed boost felt good. Will keep on testing. I cut 1x port, cavern and mishra factory for the tombs, and cut leonin relic-warders and serra avengers for thalias.
Can you post your list? I'm also interested in your SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Next_rim
Have you tried Soldier Stompy?Quote:
Originally Posted by Next_rim
Here is the list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/legac...-taxes-copy-3/Quote:
Can you post your list? I'm also interested in your SB.
No. Why would I? Its a different deck. I just tested some alternative ways to land a turn 2 thc.Quote:
Have you tried Soldier Stompy?
How good has been MD Warping Wail for you? I wonder if it's better than Eldrazi Displacer in that slot, given the number of colorless sources you have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Next_rim
I was introduced to this deck about two years ago and immediately was drawn towards it because I always enjoy playing different and unique kinds of strategies. So far every time I've played it I've had a blast and I've never had more fun playing magic than with this deck. So recently I've decided to finally get serious and build the deck for real. I was just wondering what you guys think of the list that I've worked out using the new Thalia, is there anything that you guys might consider changing?
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
11 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 AEther Vial
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Rishadan Port
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Serra Avenger
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
Quote:
Originally Posted by zebotc
seems fine with me! Maybe Mishra's Factory over a Plains:) But that is just my personal preference.