[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

Thinking about picking up this deck. Seems quite well placed in the meta.
I could use some help though with my list, and I have some questions.
First my 75 as I have in mind so far:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker /14

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 (flex slots)

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland /20

Side:
3-4 Disfigure
2-3 Golgari Charm
3-4 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
0-1 Grafdigger's Cage
1-2 Vendilion Clique
0-2 Liliana of the Veil /15

Sideboard is heavily dependant on what I put in the flex slots in the main deck.

Q's:
1. What should I play in the flex slots main? Thinking about Pierce and Disfigure, but Lily is also nice.
2. Doesn't this deck have rather serious problems flipping Delver? Especially if the flex slots are Liliana, we only have 24 instants/sorceries left. That seems quite low.
3. Do I really need Stifle on side? Right now I don't use them, but against a number of popular deck choices they seem quite strong.
4. In general, how would you guys fill up the sideboard? 17 cards and leaving the flex slots open is fine too. I might do a last minute switch between the flex slots and the sideboard anyway.

This deck is pretty hard to find a perfect setup for... :cool:

Flusterstorm might be a nice SB card as suggested in an article by Carsten Kotter http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ing-It-Up.html

I am considering to cut stifle from the SB but I am still in two minds about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Thinking about picking up this deck. Seems quite well placed in the meta.
I could use some help though with my list, and I have some questions.
First my 75 as I have in mind so far:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker /14

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 (flex slots)

4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland /20

Side:
3-4 Disfigure
2-3 Golgari Charm
3-4 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
0-1 Grafdigger's Cage
1-2 Vendilion Clique
0-2 Liliana of the Veil /15

Sideboard is heavily dependant on what I put in the flex slots in the main deck.

Q's:
1. What should I play in the flex slots main? Thinking about Pierce and Disfigure, but Lily is also nice.
2. Doesn't this deck have rather serious problems flipping Delver? Especially if the flex slots are Liliana, we only have 24 instants/sorceries left. That seems quite low.
3. Do I really need Stifle on side? Right now I don't use them, but against a number of popular deck choices they seem quite strong.
4. In general, how would you guys fill up the sideboard? 17 cards and leaving the flex slots open is fine too. I might do a last minute switch between the flex slots and the sideboard anyway.

This deck is pretty hard to find a perfect setup for... :cool:

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I like your list.

To your first question: For the same reasons I don't run Stifle maindeck, I wouldn't recommend Spell Pierce maindeck in your build. Most of the time you tap out on turn two for Hymn, Goyf or - coming to a serious contender for your flex slot - Sylvan Library. I run a singleton Lily in the second spot and a Dismember for one of the fetch lands. Sometimes getting rid of Lackey, Mom or Delver on turn 1 is important.

Yes, it is harder to flip Delver for us than for Canadian Thresh. Play Deathrite Shaman first, if you have both.

For the sideboard, you might consider Engineered Plague against Goblins, Elves, Merfolk, etc... in addition to 2 Golgari Charms. I also still love Submerge.

So I posted the following question on Bob Huang's December metagame analaysis but also wanted to get other Team players input on this matter: Playing Team America, in the dark against unknown opponent, would you go down to 6 if the hand had no threat but was otherwise functional? Also, are there certain match-ups you would mulligan to a threat? I've been playing the deck like I've learned to play RUG, which is to keep hands that are functional but not ideal as long as they are keepable given knowledge of the match-up. In those situations where I don't have an early threat I trade cards with my opponent until I draw into a threat or cantrips to find a threat. That's how I've been playing Team as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

So I posted the following question on Bob Huang's December metagame analaysis but also wanted to get other Team players input on this matter: Playing Team America, in the dark against unknown opponent, would you go down to 6 if the hand had no threat but was otherwise functional? Also, are there certain match-ups you would mulligan to a threat? I've been playing the deck like I've learned to play RUG, which is to keep hands that are functional but not ideal as long as they are keepable given knowledge of the match-up. In those situations where I don't have an early threat I trade cards with my opponent until I draw into a threat or cantrips to find a threat. That's how I've been playing Team as well.

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I've been curious of this as well since I am new to the deck.

I mull one landers with no cantrips or DRS, but most other hands I keep, including threatless hands. If the hand does absolutely nothing and doesn't have cantrips, I'd mull that too.

Basically, Ponder and Brainstorm are insanely good. That's why I said I wouldn't play decks without them, with the exception of Elves and Dredge. Elves has a ton of card draw and GSZ, Dredge also effectively has a ton of card draw.

Brainstorm/ponder also set up the delver flips on most occasions where luck is not on your side.

Flex spots- I am on 2 Lilliana 1 library with only 1 tombstalker and I have a deluge in the board to help against heavy creature decks.

I would also be much more comfortable keeping a hand with disruption and no creatures than creatures with no pressure.

Just came back home from winning the Finnish Legacy Champs with team america/bug delver.
There were 101 people, and 2 bug delver decks made the top8, with a friend of mine playing the exact same 75 I did managed to misplay himself out of it :(
Should have been three.

Played these 75:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker

1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder

2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstorm Pulse
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Creeping Tar Pit

And I would not change a single card.

Deviant congratz on the great finish!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

I would also be much more comfortable keeping a hand with disruption and no creatures than creatures with no pressure.

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Do you mean creatures with no disruption?

Also, congratz Deviant on winning the tournament!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

Do you mean creatures with no disruption?

Also, congratz Deviant on winning the tournament!

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Yes, creatures with no disruption...:)

Grats on the Finnish!

Would it be feasible to run 2 spell snare as the flex spots?
Our brothers in the HeisenbUrg threat likes them, and i see many uses for it (any tutor in ANT/TES, many elves, SFM, yada yada). It takes care of non-creature permanents that decay otherwise would have, which opens decay to focus on countering creatures. I recall the old TA ran spell snare for a while.

You could, but that would introduce 2 problems:
1: the gas tank. Running liliana and library as flex slots lets the deck play longer games better.
2: the sideboarding. Being able to take out the 8 md counters and run a slam 'em strategy postboard against the fair decks is imo very crucial to TA's success. This is the main reason I did not run the three stifles in the sb - they did not mesh well with what I wanted my gameplan to be postboard.

I tried everything from jaces, lilianas (up to a playset), multiple librarys, deluges, md stifles, more discard, more counters etc. Only to end up with almost identical list to Huangs gp list.
The only "tech" I liked yet did not play was ghost quarter. I suggest you try that if you have issues with shardless/mirror.

Inquisition or maelstrom pulse would accomplish similar effects if you didn't wasn't to do the standard set up.

I don't think BUG ever wants to leave a mana open to snare on turns 1-4, and after that most 2 drops have hit the board:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by deviant

SB:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstorm Pulse
2 Spell Pierce
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Creeping Tar Pit

And I would not change a single card.

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Congrats on the Finnish :D

Went 4-1 today for 3rd place (2nd had 1% better breakers, same List except 1 Krosan Grip in place of Pulse, i simply did not have one):

2-1 Deathblade
1-2 Punishing True Blade (he had a string of insane topdecks to get out of both games (3 Stp into Triple Snapcaster into Jace into SFM Skull/TNN and so on) would haave won with a tad more luck.
2-0 against UB Faerie Fish with Curfew and Strixes
2-1 against Dark Taxes, Golgari Charm is a house!
2-1 against 12Post, G1 Hymn Daze, Hymn Daze, Waste Hymn, Waste Stalker with Fow get there... G2 he simply resolves Titan, G3 is more Like G1 with me having double Delver, double Fow, Waste and Sylvan wich draws 4 extra ensuring to keep the pressure up.


I would maybe change some single spots in the side according to meta calls, maybe 1 Toxic or Massacre or Surgicals, all in all awesome Deck.

Thanks for the advice so far! :smile:
Right now, considering the advice) my contestants for the two flex slots main deck are:
Sylvan Library (nice gas tank), Liliana of the Veil (just a very good card) and Disfigure (kills the naughty dudes).

Couple of questions about the sideboard posted by Deviant:
Why the one-of Creeping Tar Pit? Do you really need that thing against controllish decks?
Is one Clique enough? If you side out both Stalkers, don't you feel threat light?
Against what do you use the one-of Pulse? And do you feel you might need one more?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Thanks for the advice so far! :smile:
Right now, considering the advice) my contestants for the two flex slots main deck are:
Sylvan Library (nice gas tank), Liliana of the Veil (just a very good card) and Disfigure (kills the naughty dudes).

Couple of questions about the sideboard posted by Deviant:
Why the one-of Creeping Tar Pit? Do you really need that thing against controllish decks?
Is one Clique enough? If you side out both Stalkers, don't you feel threat light?
Against what do you use the one-of Pulse? And do you feel you might need one more?

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Sylvan/Lilliana is the general consensus flex slot cards. I cut 1 tombstalker for another Lilliana and have the 3rd in the board for some additional help against midrange and control decks.

Creeping tar pit is for decks with land destruction, as an extra land, and as a jace killer or a creature to seal the deal when the game goes long. I still like the slot because it can swing past a nemisis.

One clique is all you want due to the casting cost, it is for combo and control and is your mid game trump card against a rebuilding combo player and a control player about to stabilize. You have plenty of cards to get you to that point in the game and could play another if you had lots of miracles in your meta.

Pulse is general any permanente hate. Bring it in against planeswalkers, enchantments, midrange anything not combo or speed based. If you need to cast more than one then you are way too far past the early game and have most likely lost the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Thanks for the advice so far! :smile:
Right now, considering the advice) my contestants for the two flex slots main deck are:
Sylvan Library (nice gas tank), Liliana of the Veil (just a very good card) and Disfigure (kills the naughty dudes).

Couple of questions about the sideboard posted by Deviant:
Why the one-of Creeping Tar Pit? Do you really need that thing against controllish decks?
Is one Clique enough? If you side out both Stalkers, don't you feel threat light?
Against what do you use the one-of Pulse? And do you feel you might need one more?

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I feel like we do. The card is overperforming continuously for me. It also is one of our better options to controlling opposing jaces, and being able to go to 21 lands is really nice in f.e the mirror.

One clique has been just fine. I don't like the second as I fear that could get too clunky with the 3 charms that I feel are untouchable atm. It also is fairly low-impact and I don't like to up the curve too much postboard. I know all these sound like minor issues, but they add up and I just do not personally feel any need for it.

The pulse is obviously just kgrip from Huangs list, but I strongly dislike the card and there are not many targets for it I fear when I'm packing 4 decays and 3 charms. Just one: batterskull. And in my experience pulse answers that sufficiently, while also helping to deal with jace.
I know, I know. The king is dead, his true nemesis has dethroned him. Not everyone has gotten that memo though and we are very soft to a resolved jace from control decks.
I do not want another pulse, like I said all the numbers felt just right. Untill the meta changes at least.
It just fulfills so many roles and in more undefined metagames acts as a "safety net" without being (too) awkward ever.

edit: yeah I'm that slow at typing with my Ipad :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by deviant

The card is overperforming continuously for me. It also is one of our better options to controlling opposing jaces, and being able to go to 21 lands is really nice in f.e the mirror.

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Speaking about overperforming... Sylvan Library is so damn ridiculous against non Tendrils Combo, T1 DRS into Sylvan + X is just sick, i draw 3-4 extra cards each game where life total doesn't matter, that card is just so good.

The one Clique is fine, when you have it, it's never bad, as you only board it in when you want it, while you don't really need the card as you have so many answers.

Krosan Grip felt weird, Needle or Pulse would have been better anytime i had it.

One card i am thinking about is Toxic Deluge as a replacement for the 3rd Disfigure, mostly meta calling though, the card is amazing against Maverick and Deathblade.

I was that person who ended 4 place in Finnish champs. Played this list:

2 Tombstalker
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
2 Liliana of the veil

1 Tropical Island
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

SB:
3 Disfigure
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
1 Krosan grip
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing needle
3 Golgari charm

Played with 2 sneak and show, imperial painter, jund and lands, then 2 ID. Was undefeated before top8. In top 8 beat ant and in top4 lost to BUG still.
Maindeck is strong, tested deck over 4 month and played other versions, but now i will not toch it. Sidebord is another story. Grip is optional card, maybe will try tar pit.