[Deck] Aggro Loam

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Any chance someone wants to give this a whirl just to see if it's even worth exploring?

2 Gitrog Monster
3 Terravore
1 Eternal Witness
4 Tarmogoyf
10

4 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Learning Center
3 Seismic Assault
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Devastating Dreams
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
4 Mox Diamond
26

4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Forgotten Cave
1 Tranquil Thicket
4 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold

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I saw your list a few pages back and really wanted an excuse to play the Gitrog Monster so I took your list and made a few tweaks. -1 eternal witness -1 terravore, -1 Gitrog monster -2 devastating dreams +1 green sun zenith +1 courser of kruphix +a grove maybe?. I wanted 2 Gitrog monsters but the shop only had one. Three GSZ i think was a mistake, in a game I milled 3 goyfs with loam and had zero targets at the end of the game for the 2 GSZ i had in hand. It's likely I just want more threats. I played the deck in two weeklies, going 3-1 and 1-3 (bye) the second tournament. My wins in the first tournament were against burn, RUG delver, Maverick. Loss was against eldrazi. Burn I felt was strange to win but I had turn one chalice for one both games plus an early creature to close it out. In the second tournament I lost to eldrazi, miracles, and 4 color loam (bazzar of moxen version).

Some of the weaknesses I noticed with the deck:
-Really has no outs to an entreat, early or late unless you have seismic+loam going which is unlikely versus a deck with wear/tear, rest in peace, counterbalance, blood moon, counterspells (i could go on here).
-General inconsistency, drawing pieces of the deck that don't do much on their own or at the current stage of the game. Loaming away things you needed to draw.
-ridiculous over reliance on the graveyard. Seriously, count them! 21 cards that don't operate very well, if at all with a rest in peace or leyline in play.
-It's quite common to not have the 5 mana for Gitrog. If you have the 6 for GSZ you're likely winning anyway. For instance, you're incentivized to hold onto lands for assault, and cycling lands you usually don't want to play. With wasteland, you're typically going to want to use them and not "save it up" for casting a Gitrog. I think I cast him maybe two times throughout both tournaments, and the second time my loam opponent had a leyline of the void in play so I was sinkholeing myself every turn just to have a 6/6 deathouch in play.
-Too slow to fight eldrazi, even when I wastelanded him twice he still spit out huge threats and took care of me easily most games. Thorn of amethyst is bonkers against us.
So that sounds like a lot of weaknesses and that's just scratching the surface, but when the deck really comes together, it seems amazing.

-Some fun moments: I killed 3 tarmogoyfs in one game with seismic assault against RUG delver, all three giant 6/7's.
-Terrovore being as big as Merit Lage in the Loam "mirror"

I'm unconvinced with devastating dreams. It only took me one time of that card being countered for me to make it seem like it's unplayable in a format of mostly blue decks.

Sideboard could also use a lot of work, you didn't provide one but I did my best to patch one together. I wasn't happy with it, but one thing I wanted to focus on was threats that weren't weak to grave hate to bring in games 2-3.
1 Krosan Grip
1 Reclamation sage
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the last troll
2 Nihil Spellbomb (Going to switch to leylines since i forgot about chalice)
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Damnation
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Hymn to Tourach (my pathetic attempt at fighting combo)
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Golgari Charm
1 Slaughter Games

I haven't actually played the deck, but the above seems spot on. This deck is in the Zombardment/Jund depths space of being so graveyard reliant you might as well play dredge.

To add something constructive to my criticism, I'd suggest -1 Goyf +1 Scooze. The card is really good in big mana decks. All three of the things it is doing are live and powerful. It also makes you less graveyard reliant.

I'd also probably try to add a white source into the 75 and play 2/1 split of Thalia/Canonist in the board. If you can squeeze the white source into the main you can play a mainboard Teeg which does very good things for your Miracles and combo matchups.

I'd also play 2-3 Revokers in the board. Specifically for miracles and combo but also because they are excellent cards.

I took 10th place at the Squabbles tourney last Sunday, enough for a Taiga. 65 kids. I lost my draw-and-in in round 7 to Esper Mentor. I say draw-and-in because I was 5-1 going into the last round. Unfortunately my breakers sucked due to a first round loss to mono G cloudpost (very winnable matchup with 1 turn from victory in both g2 and 3). I got paired down to a 13 pointer at table 3. The matchup against Esper mentor was also winnable, but I was trumped by a Jace game 2 with no creature or burn for 5 turns and by a needle in game 3 on my lili with no Decay. Eventually one was dredged and they were eaten by surgical. Still very happy with the deck and will continue to beat tier 1 decks. 7th-10th were all X-2. No report for this one, just a quick run down of I faced:

Round 1 (1-2) Mono G Cloudpost
Round 2 (2-0) Merfolk
Round 3 (2-0) Sneak and Show
Round 4 (2-1) Splinter Twin
Round 5 (2-1) Shardless
Round 6 (2-0) Miracles
Round 7 (1-2) Esper Mentor

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Originally Posted by apocolyps6

I'd also play 2-3 Revokers in the board. Specifically for miracles and combo but also because they are excellent cards.

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Hi Apoclyps, I've seen your current list and i found it very interesting, I like a lot this new lands configuration, i will try it as soon as possible.
I have just some questions:
how is working destructive flow in your sb? I tried it against Eldrazi and Mud, other mu where it could be intresting? Lands? Grindy mu?

Why you choose to play dread of night instead of Golgari charm or Enginereed PLague? I think that they are more versatile, besides I don't like 1 cc spell for this deck.

Hi rocco94,

Destructive Flow strong against decks like Eldrazi, MUD, Lands, 12Post where you want more wastelands. The card is great at what it does. You generally don't want it against decks with deathrite, daze, or more than 2 basic lands.

The more I've tested the Eldrazi matchup the more I feel we don't need more help. It isn't super positive, but 60-40 (in our favor) at worst. This means that I will probably look to replace the Destructive Flow with something else soon.

Dread of Night is a card specifically for Death & Taxes. The fact that it is 1 mana is important in the matchup as their mana denial is very strong against us, and we should not have Chalice postboard against them. Golgari Charm and such are more versatile, but I feel I already have a good matchup against other decks where Charm would be good.

If you are still curious, you should look through my profile for posts/advice about the deck, I've written a bunch about different matchups.

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Originally Posted by apocolyps6

Hi rocco94,

Destructive Flow strong against decks like Eldrazi, MUD, Lands, 12Post where you want more wastelands. The card is great at what it does. You generally don't want it against decks with deathrite, daze, or more than 2 basic lands.

The more I've tested the Eldrazi matchup the more I feel we don't need more help. It isn't super positive, but 60-40 (in our favor) at worst. This means that I will probably look to replace the Destructive Flow with something else soon.

Dread of Night is a card specifically for Death & Taxes. The fact that it is 1 mana is important in the matchup as their mana denial is very strong against us, and we should not have Chalice postboard against them. Golgari Charm and such are more versatile, but I feel I already have a good matchup against other decks where Charm would be good.

If you are still curious, you should look through my profile for posts/advice about the deck, I've written a bunch about different matchups.

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Curious about your statements regarding the D&T match-up. I've only played it a few times, and was fortunate enough to get to PFires / Decays in a timely fashion. However, Is Chalice something you remove because it can be flickered?
I find that Chalice is a beating against them when their plan is T1 Mom / Vial / etc, and LOVE having it on board when I make the offering to Marit Lage.

I can see pulling Chalice on the draw, but even so, having it as an option to stop that key StP on a Knight / Marit Lage is a strong draw for me.

When evaluating the power level of chalice, this is my reasoning.

If the opponent has more than 12 1drops, chalice is insane and always stays in.

If the opponent has 12 or less 1drops then the card is somewhere between medium and mediocre.

Combo lands plays ~12 1drops (crop rot, gamble, exploration). The card is decent but nothing amazing. There is nothing special about the matchup that makes chalice worse, and those 1drops are quite important to their gameplan, so it stays in.

D&T plays 12 1drops (vial, mom, stp). The card is a lottery ticket here. If the opponent gets down a vial before we get down a chalice, they can vial in their moms. Redundant vials don't matter and in that case the only thing it is shutting off is stp. Mom can also be cast off of cavern, which a lot of list are starting to play. If we do get a chalice down, they can simply flicker it to unlock their 1drops (and turn off our moxen). On top of this playing 2 mana non-creatures is hard against D&T because most of their deck punishes us "taking a turn off". I've also had games where I held a game-winning pyroclasm in my hand since turn 1 and never cobbled together enough mana to cast it. I died staring at Thalia, wingmare, 2x port.

Marit Lage is extremely vulnerable in this matchup. They have stp, Karakas, and flickerwisp (11 cards) to punish us for the play. If we sac 2 lands to not win the game, we are probably just losing. They can also have any flier + mom for infinite blocks. Sometimes they don't have any of this, and the matchup is so bad that this last resort Lage "sneak attack" actually buys us some win percentages. That being said, this strategy is just a hail mary and I would not include potential dead draws just to further it.

The way we win this matchup is by doing our best Jund impression and pfiring away their board while keeping decay up for RIP, Absolute Law, etc. Hopefully while also turning a green creature sideways. Our black sideboard cards also make mom much worse.

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Originally Posted by apocolyps6

When evaluating the power level of chalice, this is my reasoning.

If the opponent has more than 12 1drops, chalice is insane and always stays in.

If the opponent has 12 or less 1drops then the card is somewhere between medium and mediocre.

Combo lands plays ~12 1drops (crop rot, gamble, exploration). The card is decent but nothing amazing. There is nothing special about the matchup that makes chalice worse, and those 1drops are quite important to their gameplan, so it stays in.

D&T plays 12 1drops (vial, mom, stp). The card is a lottery ticket here. If the opponent gets down a vial before we get down a chalice, they can vial in their moms. Redundant vials don't matter and in that case the only thing it is shutting off is stp. Mom can also be cast off of cavern, which a lot of list are starting to play. If we do get a chalice down, they can simply flicker it to unlock their 1drops (and turn off our moxen). On top of this playing 2 mana non-creatures is hard against D&T because most of their deck punishes us "taking a turn off". I've also had games where I held a game-winning pyroclasm in my hand since turn 1 and never cobbled together enough mana to cast it. I died staring at Thalia, wingmare, 2x port.

Marit Lage is extremely vulnerable in this matchup. They have stp, Karakas, and flickerwisp (11 cards) to punish us for the play. If we sac 2 lands to not win the game, we are probably just losing. They can also have any flier + mom for infinite blocks. Sometimes they don't have any of this, and the matchup is so bad that this last resort Lage "sneak attack" actually buys us some win percentages. That being said, this strategy is just a hail mary and I would not include potential dead draws just to further it.

The way we win this matchup is by doing our best Jund impression and pfiring away their board while keeping decay up for RIP, Absolute Law, etc. Hopefully while also turning a green creature sideways. Our black sideboard cards also make mom much worse.

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Chalice of the Void @2 is also really good against Lands. It prevents them using Life from the Loam and Punishing Fire.

Against Death and Taxes, I'd ALWAYS side out Chalice on the draw. On the play it can be good (especially in a hand with Mox Diamond). And I also agree that Marit Lage is bad against Death and Taxes. We usually win this one with Punishing Fire and Green Sun's Zenith -> fatty.

I always leave my Chalices in against Lands. Chalice for 1 turns off Exploration, Gamble, Manabond, Molten Vortex, and Crop Rotation. Exploration and Gamble in particular are critical to their plan, so cutting those off/making them find Grip to start getting online can get you way ahead. Chalice on 2 all but turns their deck off.

You guys are right. My analysis of the Lands matchup was mostly for contrast with D&T in order to explain how to evaluate chalices in low-1drop matchups and was not comprehensive. I also always leave in Chalice against Lands, tho I've yet to have the chance to put it on 2.

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Originally Posted by apocolyps6

You guys are right. My analysis of the Lands matchup was mostly for contrast with D&T in order to explain how to evaluate chalices in low-1drop matchups and was not comprehensive. I also always leave in Chalice against Lands, tho I've yet to have the chance to put it on 2.

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I've done it a few times, and I've had Lands players scoop to Chalice on 2 + Knight in game 1.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

Against Death and Taxes, I'd ALWAYS side out Chalice on the draw. On the play it can be good (especially in a hand with Mox Diamond). And I also agree that Marit Lage is bad against Death and Taxes. We usually win this one with Punishing Fire and Green Sun's Zenith -> fatty.

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I see what you and apocalyps6 are saying. I may have been overvaluing the option to Lage against D&T. Glad I asked! Should have noticed that my own wins were of the "grind em out" variety basically playing Jund.

For some input on Chalice against Lands, check my TR post a few pages back. It doesn't quite break the matchup wide open, but with any sort of relevant action it comes close.

Against DnT I'm tempted to leave in a single Chalice for the reasons listed previously, with protecting Knight from Swords being the most relevant. One reason for this is that I don't usually have that many cards to bring in, so I can't take out everything that doesn't operate at optimal efficiency. However, this is one matchup where my anti-burn tech, Dromoka's Command, proves its worth. In particular, it allows us to get rid of RiP without spending a whole card on it, which is very handy.

What do we not want to be casted against us more (in other words, which is worse for us): Blood Moon or From the Ashes?

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

What do we not want to be casted against us more (in other words, which is worse for us): Blood Moon or From the Ashes?

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From the Ashes is way harder to beat, and it's not particularly close. It's best in conjunction with Rest in Peace unless you have the win set up within a turn or two afterward.

Does Kronberger lurk here? Would be cool to hear his comments on his sideboard from the last MKM-tournament.

Here is his list:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=20455&iddeck=156017

He has posted in the past, but says he does not have the time to do so regularly.

Wow, that is a pretty wild set of cards. I'll take a stab at the reasoning. STP seems like a(n over)reaction to Eldrazi, or a reasonable reaction to D&T. Crop Rotation + Lands are a noble attempt to improve on Leyline, and complement to night in the non-midrange matchups. Kronberger is playing a river crossing puzzle with Lili, Lage and the manabase. Chandra, Flamecaller ... maybe this was mis-recorded? Maybe he was bribed by the Seance guy?

He definitely played the Chandra Flamecaller, cause in one of the match write ups on the MKM site, in playing against NIC FIT, it mentions that he drew 12 cards using her 2nd ability. He must bring it in against control and other slower matchups. It probably is an amazing combo with Loam.

Here is the link to that matchup
http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/201...as-kronberger/

Always lurking here ;)

The list is absolutely correct.
And to be honest, this was the best Sideboard I ever had for a tournament with 4c-Loam -- by far!

Went 9-1 (losing Round 1), Split in the the Top 8. Lost to Grixis Delver, won against 3x Eldrazi, Reanimator, Shardless, UR Delver, 4c-Delver, Nic Fit, Lands.

Some quick thoughts on the Sideboard:

Chandra, Flamecaller:
Tell me a card that is good against Miracles when A: the board is empty, B: there is a Jace on the battlefield and C: deals with Mentor + Tokens. If you find a better one I might switch it ;)

Swords to Plowshares:
This was a card for three matchups. Eldrazi, Shardless and D&T. You board out your Chalice here or play it on zero (Shardless) and can bring in one of the best removal spells in the format. Three matchups was already good enough for me to warrent three Sideboard-Slots. The more I thought about it, the more I got hooked. Even against Delver it is absolutely fine to have Chalice and Swords in your Deck, since both are just so good on their own.
Take a look here and think for it a while:
Eldrazi, Shardless, Delver, D&T, Elves, Maverick, Mirror, Dredge, Lands, Nic Fit, Painter, Infect....and so on.

DD-Combo:
This is just here to finish games quickly. Mainly for Elves, Combo-Decks, Nic Fit, Shardless, Miracles (perfectly switching one Wasteland and the Maze for DD+Stage and still have the same amount of Lands).

The rest of the Sideboard should not be so surprising.

PS: Guys, you have to take the deck to the Legacy GP in Prague! I might change one or two Slots, but it felt better than ever.

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Originally Posted by schniggaz

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Chandra, Flamecaller:
Tell me a card that is good against Miracles when A: the board is empty, B: there is a Jace on the battlefield and C: deals with Mentor + Tokens. If you find a better one I might switch it ;)

...

DD-Combo:
This is just here to finish games quickly. Mainly for Elves, Combo-Decks, Nic Fit, Shardless, Miracles (perfectly switching one Wasteland and the Maze for DD+Stage and still have the same amount of Lands).
...

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As a Miracles player, Chandra and the DD combo are both pretty scary new dimensions to present post-board.