I will not be able to attend to the tournament today =/
@ ryn: this is the dark horizons list, only replacing vindicate with pulse and gerrard's veredict with liliana. imho, is fantastic. And congrats!!!!
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I will not be able to attend to the tournament today =/
@ ryn: this is the dark horizons list, only replacing vindicate with pulse and gerrard's veredict with liliana. imho, is fantastic. And congrats!!!!
thanks sug! :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sughayyer
Yeah i reconfigure the dark horizons list replacing vindicate with pulse is pretty good! also liliana i love her added removals and hand size reducer :smile:
Atm i love my list, this was the list i used when i got 1st place also, battling 2 rugs, reanimator, kithkins (several page up) only questionable about the list was the 2nd swamp :rolleyes: it is good at opening turns to easily cast hymn w/o being wastelanded but in late turns not that profitable to crack by KOTR :smile:
Loving also the e-tutor package atm i'm confuse between 2 SBs cuz both are good :smile:
You know, I really love that list. The good results I made in tournaments were all with that list.. I don't know why, when I started tinkering with other lists my results were not that good. Maybe I should just get back to that (also find another bob asap, someone borrowed mine and disappeared).
The 1 deed main/2 deed side is just enough. It is not a problem with mox.
EDIT: About the lands, we are playing a 3 color deck. If we fear wasteland we will not play at all.... also we got mox :)
On a different subject, as silly as it may be, I found out that pithing needle for sensei's divining top works wonders against miracles (and counterbalance as well).
Hey!
At first: Sorry for my bad english!
Its my first Post at TheSource after a long time of following this thread.
Since an half year me and my friends started visiting legacy-tournaments.
A short time before Ian Ellis took the first place at SCGs (Gratulations for that!) i thought that TheRock isnt the right choice, but when i read about his results i switched back instantly! (Otherwise i would play aggroloam now)
So i kept playing TheRock and just arrived at the following list with which i´m really happy now:
3 bayou
2 scrubland
1 savannah
2 marsh flats
2 verdant catacombs
2 windswept heath
1 plains
1 swamp
1 forest
4 wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 maze of ith
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
4 knight
4 bob
3 tarmogoyf
2 ooze
4 swords to plowshares
2 thoughtseize
2 IoK
3 duress
2 Life from the Loam
2 Liliana of the veil
4 Mox Diamond
2 Sylvan Library
2 EE
SB:
3 thalia
2 Choke
1 Ethersworn canonist
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Crop Rotation
2 Deed
2 Krosan Grip
3 Extraction
My Choices:
The Creature base
I thougt a long time about playing the playset bob, knight, goyf
but ooze is very often just to good to cut. i think a creature base
whitout sfm-package (i never tested it - tell me the opposite :-D)
and GSZ seems to be more aggro/faster.
Liliana: i replaced her for cataclysm. i love cataclysm, but liliana is more
flexible as cataclysm an does the same. she has to be handled or she
cleans up the board
seven cc1-discard: to get cataclysm through. cataclysm is no more, but
discard is still fine to decimate the enemys options.
4 moxes: ooze,bob,library t1 is just great. t1 discard and an open mana for StP
is equally not bad.
LftL: with moxes, wastelands and liliana really good. disrupt the enemys tempo-plan also.
EE: moms,hierarchs,mongoose, a billion zombies etc. not in my house!
just a short statement for my choices. i think my sideboard could be optimized. i would like to have better answers on control and aggrodecks.
@Rummelboxer
I understand all that you said, and I agree. Just a few questions: is replacing the 2 duresses with 1 iok and 1 seize a bad idea? And isn't playing Loam in maindeck a bit dangerous without witness and volrath's stronghold? Also, 4 moxen isn't too much?
And yes, sfm package + gsz is SLOW..... you're absolutely right.
You may be right with the discard-composition. i didnt thought about it intensive, but the thought i made about it was to disrupt the spells which are the main-problems in most cases. In my opinion are those spells removal, planeswalker and counterspells. in these cases duress totally does its job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sughayyer
I dont understand why LftL MD should be dangerous without witness and stronghold. It allows you to throw lands in moxes without carddisadvantage and lock the oponent via wasteland. I really like witness an stronghold, but this gadget sounds in my opinion better on paper than in play, because you need a lot of resources for a slow lock.
four moxes because im avaricious for t1 bob,library, ooze.. as i said in my mainpost.
but i thought about a pridemage for a mox, because i lost two games because of pithing needle. on the other hand on pridemage could be random as an option on those situations.
Same here when i tweak my list to sfm, gsz-type, combination of two it gave me result were not that good and i dont know why, maybe playing style?? i cant guess what's the reason(s) behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sughayyer
Btw do you usually side-out mox diamond? or what matches do you sided out that card?? lemme know :smile:
It works needling a SDT against counterbalance (miracle as well), but it also shuts down our sdt too, do you think there is other way to attack that counterbalance? Considering we use our list cuz other list ran gaddock teeg w/c we dont use.
Actually i dont know how to handle that deck using my current list :frown:
@rummel
I don't know if I understand it, but pithing needle naming mox does nothing, since mana abilities cannot be countered. You are also right when you say witness-interactions are slow.
@ryn
I side-out mox on... almost never. Some matches (elves, affinity) you need a quick deed, and mox helps you. On GW, you need a quick deed, they have great mana-disruption, but they can't rebuild the board very well (my plan is hand-disrupt, spot removal only what I need to stay alive, then deed asap). RUG has heavy mana disruption, and mox helps you to go to stage 2 - their plan is to try to keep you on stage 1, their stage 3 happens with 2 lands on the field, and they can hardly deal with heavy pressure in a better way than trying to outrace you (and outracing a 10/10 fatty is hard).
The "lost mox" usually makes little difference agaisnt a deck that can't rebuild very well. About std to top, yes, this shuts our top. However, we can strip their removals and try to force a bob... from there will be win, they put no pressure. On those strange mixture decks that run counterbalance, souls, sfm package... the deck just tries to do too much and usually doesn't do nothing well. Pernicious deed is the key in these cases.
Talking about deed, I forgot how good this card is. Sometimes I miss my old list with 3 deeds.... but can't fit moxen in that list, and moxen ARE good.
I will side out my mox diamonds in the UW matchup knowing that I can out bring in better cards that do not need to be played explosively...ie Choke, Lilliana... and I find myself slow rolling cards more oftern then playing out my hand especially Dark Confidant.
Rumble: You should look into GSZ if even as a light package, the card is nuts and not slow in the slightest. It takes you to 6-7 first turn acceleration plays and 10+ turn one plays. It is good all around.
I see a bunch of things being talked about that all boil down to Consistency and Versatility.
Stoneforge drops to play on turn 2 (typically) and you play a fattie (batterskull) shortly after (same turn as a knight). if the mystic dies, you've filtered and forced them to discard. It's not exactly slower, it's just a different threat. No, she's no threat without equipment though. I'll admit that.
Green Sun is again, Consistency vs Versatility. You get options with Green Sun. Options are both good and bad. I know that if I play 3 Zenith, all of my green creatures have 3 "virtual duplicates" (extras that do not count to the total actual number played). Yes, you pay one more but what does it matter in the later game?
Both of them are good/bad options for the deck. They open you up to different things just as not having them does. Stoneforge makes your aggro match-up better. GSZ the control. They both make the other worse (paying 3 for Goyf makes it slower than normal and Mystic isn't amazing against miracles...). All that being said, Goyf isn't very good against Show and Tell.
Overall, it's just give and take. you have to adjust to what you're expecting/playing.
Very well said. That is why you and matt get great results always (not making little of other players). Agree 100%. But I have one question: doesn´t playing style also interfere in that choice?
I think preferences should come into play when you play but, that's because I believe everyone should have fun when playing. If someone's playing simply to win, I wouldn't help them. This isn't a job, it's a hobby, I won't knowingly help anyone change that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sughayyer
School's finally out. I''ll be posting here as often as I can for the next while, once again :P
-Matt
I am switching for my local right now from Maverick that i've been playing since the printing of KotR by now because my metagame got some heavy control and a few Goblins, where Maverick is on the lower end... but i simply can't let go of my KotR's (playing Bant in between sometimes).
My list for now is the following:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Savannah
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
3 Mox Diamond
1 Life from the Loam
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Ghastly Demise
I welcome any input about my list, for now i always thin about taking in Absolute Law for my local meta. What do you guys think about Natural Order/Progenitus 3/1 for the sideboard?
Edit:
I love 2 additional Ooze + 2 Umezawas Jitte sideboard in place of Garruk and Thrun + Ghastly, still im not sure wher to settle on, as it stretches my manabase.
2 Dueling Grounds are in consideration to get rid of the Plagues, they do handle Krenlko quite well :)
Again I'm putting my nose in here ehehe
Dueling grounds seems a great option against goblins at first. Until they get Siege Gang Commander, and explode all their goblins in your face (with Krenko's help). That's why I keep Engineered Plague (and I DO need both Plagues against goblins).
I'm up in the air regarding dueling grounds. If it's a choice between that and Plague, I'm all for Grounds. To be honest though, I'd rather have ways to stop it getting out of control (not as limited as Plague) than a fail-safe for when they do.
ryn ball_2, You wanted video. Here you go. This is from today's daily.
Edit/addition -
For anyone wondering, the lands match isn't as hard as it may look. You can fight this deck more effectively than other decks due to the fact that we fight in 3 zones (Hand, Graveyard, and battlefield) before we get to the sideboard. Limit the amount of lands your opponent can play and take out relevant things. Don't just go for the Loams, Cycle lands can be just as important along with Maze and Wasteland (What good is casting loam if all the targets disappear). Actually getting the Loams is a big thing though. Count on your Ooze and Pulse/Vindicates to do the tricks needed for the yard. Let you Knights deal with issues that come up. We provide them with the same issues maverick does, except we can get Totem off the board.
Our 43 Lands matchup isn't too bad at all. Between Ooze, Surgical, and Thoughtseize, we've got the stuff to deal with their stuff. We've got tutorable Wastelands for Glacial Chasm, Pridemages for Crucible, basic lands against Wasteland, and Planeswalkers to hinder interaction in general.
It's not our best matchup by far, but we can win it, especially since most new Lands players are awful and don't know the interactions as well as they should.
-Matt
Not our best, but close enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Does anyone else here have crazy difficulty fighting Miracle Control?
Just playtested against Max's Top 8 GP Ghent list and got decimated several games in a row. Everything relevant I played got countered or killed and I didn't have nearly enough Maelstrom Pulses/Vindicates/EEs to stop all the Jaces, Counterbalances and Vedalken Shackles.
What's everyone's experience against this deck like?
I play bant, and I have a hell of a time going up against UW mircale. Bant is similar to Rock (blue instead of black), the gameplan is nearly identical, but that match is HARD.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kl'rt