[Primer] Elves!

I would tap DRS and forest to play visionary first. This allows you to potentially draw into a heritage druid, wirewood symbiote, gsz, etc. that would alter your lines of play. Assuming that the drawn card is a land or another irrelevant card. I would probably play cradle and gsz for 1 to bring wirewood symbiote into play. Against certain decks, this opens you up to wasteland but already provides you a card back in the form of bouncing visionary. If your opponent doesn't have wasteland, you probably win. Even if they do, you have the visionary recursion engine up and running.

I would definitely sandbag the GSZ in case the Visionaries draw dead and would not waste it immediately to setup the BFF combo just to see it fall victim to removal against an (still) unknown opponent. Neither would I burn the second Fetch for another Forest or Dual here as it would devalue the Quirion Ranger in case your opponent is on fast beatdown (Arbor-lock). Unless you can identify a combo deck on the other side of the table, I would drop the fetch, play a Visionary and pass. This way you have all the options in turn 3 there you have better knowledge of your opponents plan.

If you are running WRP in your maindeck, you can fetch it turn 3 with GSZ. I don't have to mention how absurd WRP + Cradle is...

I'd start with Visionary tapping forest + DrS (no land drop yet)

If you draw an heritage, then land the cradle, tap for GG and play Heritage + Quirion.
Tap the 3 untapped dudes for GGG, cast 2nd Visionary, floating G.
If you draw Wirewood, cast it and use the ability to untap DrS (bouncing one Visionary. Untapped DrS gives you some potential action during opponent turn).
If you draw something else and your opponent have a fetch in graveyard, use Quirion to untap DrS, then use floating G + DrS to GsZ for Wirewood.

If you don't draw heritage, just land the fetch and get Dryad eot. Next turn you can start the BFF engine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by B4L4

I'd start with Visionary tapping forest + DrS (no land drop yet)

If you draw an heritage, then land the cradle, tap for GG and play Heritage + Quirion.
Tap the 3 untapped dudes for GGG, cast 2nd Visionary, floating G.
If you draw Wirewood, cast it and use the ability to untap DrS (bouncing one Visionary. Untapped DrS gives you some potential action during opponent turn).
If you draw something else and your opponent have a fetch in graveyard, use Quirion to untap DrS, then use floating G + DrS to GsZ for Wirewood.

If you don't draw heritage, just land the fetch and get Dryad eot. Next turn you can start the BFF engine.

---

BFF combo is crap against decks running a shitload of spot removal especially if you can have a real threat like WRP or the Behemoth itself if you sandbag the GSZ. Running out all your creatures just because you can is nonsense as long as you can draw one of your 4 Glimpse and the metagame is full of sweepers.

For me, some of the scenarios described have too many "ifs" like drawing Hertiage, Symbiote, asuming opponent is a goldfish (no counter, no combo, no removal), etc.

Alright.
Let's say I'm going all in (opponent plays no counter magic and has 1 fetch in GY)
Tap Forest (G)
Exile Fetch (GG)
Cast Visionary (Draw 1)
Play+Tap Cradle (GG)
Play Quirion (G) / Bounce Forest+Untap DRS
Exile Fetch (GG)
Play Visionary (Draw 1)

Kill next turn?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kayradis

Alright.
Let's say I'm going all in (opponent plays no counter magic and has 1 fetch in GY)
Tap Forest (G)
Exile Fetch (GG)
Cast Visionary (Draw 1)
Play+Tap Cradle (GG)
Play Quirion (G) / Bounce Forest+Untap DRS
Exile Fetch (GG)
Play Visionary (Draw 1)

Kill next turn?

---

Erm ... how? I can't see it, pal. There are 2 visionary, a quirion, a drs and a cradle in play, a forest, a fetch and a GSZ in hand. Atm I can only see 6 mana :/

Funny... for me the line of play is really different t from what I read:

Not knowing what your opponent is on, I will:
tap DRS and forest for visionnary, then play cradle and second visionary, keeping gsz to fetch symbiot next turn if I didn't draw anything relevant of the 3-cards drawn (second cradle, second GSZ, NO, heritage, birchlore => 15 out of 52 => 64.8% chances on three draws) in which case I will probably tutor for regal/Hoof next turn or a symbiot and started a BFF engine, or a glimpse and another 1 drop...

Drawing neither glimpse, NO, GSZ, heritage, cradle, symbiot, glimpse or birchlore is 1- (proba of one of these 23 out of 52) => 1-0.835= 16.5% only.

Of course normally at this point you know what your opponent is on, and that should change things => not playing NO vs fow.deck,...

So basically I play the craddle and two visionnary. I do not share the vision of a meta full of sweepers (in which case putting visionary into play is fine anyway, as it helps you building pressure while adding power), and I'm not afraid of waste: against any waste.deck, I'm quite happy with DRS, quirion, 2 visio and forest while they spend one of their 2 land drops on a waste and I still have fetch + GSZ + 3 cards in hand. I will even almost consider that I won the game if I see waste => cradle.

Just a precision: against unknown opponent, I fear miracle and combo.

Playing cradle and 2*visionnary is the fastest if we're against combo.
Against miracle, I will like this configuration too, even if fetch (to grab dryad EoOT) + quirion is maybe better.

against other decks, first they let us have an active DRS, so they're not overloading with cheap removal. I will consider that I'm clearly ahead with this configuration and my GSZ+fetch+3 cards hand + DRS & loaded cradle in play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemnear

BFF combo is crap against decks running a shitload of spot removal especially if you can have a real threat like WRP or the Behemoth itself if you sandbag the GSZ. Running out all your creatures just because you can is nonsense as long as you can draw one of your 4 Glimpse and the metagame is full of sweepers.

For me, some of the scenarios described have too many "ifs" like drawing Hertiage, Symbiote, asuming opponent is a goldfish (no counter, no combo, no removal), etc.

---

Of course there is a lot of "ifs", we talk goldfish vs unknown opponent..
And i should add more if, because of course if you happen to draw a glimpse / NO on your first visionary, it changes everything.

I think it's safe to deploy BFF if you naturally draw into the 2nd piece and/or if you can replay the bounced Visionary the same turn with Wirewood. And i would still be quite happy to see my opponent tapping out on his turn to break the BFF, gaining cards advantage & shields down for your next turn.

Otherwise, fetch -> go + eot Arbor into tons of mana + GsZ on your next turn is a good line of play.

Interesting. Thanks for all the replies. It's helpful to see how all of you think this stuff through. And it's especially interesting to see which cards people are valuing over others. Perhaps if I had presented a real game state with an opponent, our plays might be more in line with each other. Or they might still be just as different!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by danyul

Interesting. Thanks for all the replies. It's helpful to see how all of you think this stuff through. And it's especially interesting to see which cards people are valuing over others. Perhaps if I had presented a real game state with an opponent, our plays might be more in line with each other. Or they might still be just as different!

---

Yeah, I agree it's useful to see how others would play out certain scenarios. For those interested, here are the assumptions I made when evaluating the hand:

1. You're on the play since there are 8 cards (excluding fetch in gy).
2. Because we're goldfishing, your opponent played a card on turn 1 (tapped out) that doesn't impact your turn 2.
3. Due to the card played on turn 1, we know we're not up against combo.

I also grouped the opposing deck in one of 3 categories: blue-based disruption, black-based disruption, and LD-based disruption.

Blue-based disruption: miracles, stone-blade, RUG, UWR
Black-based disruption: team america, shardless, jund, junk, dead-guy ale
LD-based disruption: d&t, maverick, goblins

Against blue-based disruption, I preferred to follow up visionary with gsz->symbiote because I don't want their spell pierces or non-FoW countermagic to be live next turn. Moreover, I am speculating that they don't have removal since they would probably StP or bolt our turn 1 DRS.

Against black-based disruption, I speculate that they may have a turn 2 hymn coming since they didn't discard us on turn 1. For this reason, I want to play gsz earlier to mitigate against this. Abrupt decay is also possible but I believe it's better to lose our symbiote than the DRS since that would set us back on mana.

Against LD-based disruption, the only cards I really care about are gaddock teeg, aven mindcensor, phyrexian revoker, and thalia to a certain extent. All 4 are capable of coming down on turn 2. We're heavily favored in these match-ups so I don't want to give them a reason to get back in the game. I realize that spirit of the labyrinth would be pretty good against this play but I think I would hedge towards the other cards.

But there are scenarios that you have to guess or be lucky...

One thing is the other player drop Mountain -> Lackey (an obvious match). Other is Wasteland -> Vial (possible D&T, Goblins, Merfolk) or Fetch -> Bayou -> DRS (possible mirror match, BUG, Junk). Sure, it's some kind of information... But all decks cited before have different lines of play against/around, and sometimes you just have to guess/read minds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Julian23

4-0'ed today's Legacy Daily Event as well, #boom, I'm back! Still only at 1800 Constructed Rating but after losing so hard last week, it feels really good to 10-2 over the last three DEs with the two losses only from the mirror match. :smile::smile:

Here's what I was using. It's probably super bad but the heavy hitting sideboard cards such as Meekstone were a lot of fun. It's like taking hardcore revenge on RUG for all the crimes it committed to me in the past. #Booyakasha!!!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bol6mTsCIAAhy01.png:large

---

You have a lot of interesting decisions contained in that image. Would you recommend any of them? I'm expecting a heavy delver presence

About this specific Julian's SB:
I've played meekstone, the best card ever when RUG was THE DTB. BUGs have decay, so it's less reliable, and I will always favour 4th decay over meekstone vs BUG, at it doubles as a very good cards in fair, non-delver MUs
Otherwise I do not understand why dropping all hope vs combo while it's still very playable with some dedicated slots.

About the situation, it's indeed very interesting. None of the posters have posted two similar plays.. So to continue a bit further the game, what if the opponent played:
1) Misty Rainforest => Bayou => DRS;
2) Verdant catacomb, go;
3) waste, vial;
4) island, go;
5) island, ponder;

After a long break, i sleeved my elves back and play the forst-dudes the first time this year. Today i enjoyed a small tournament at an LGS.

Afterall 3:1 which leads to a 4th place (top was full with 9 points, first place included, so we need the Opp-Score)

Matchups:
2:0 vs Infect
2:1 vs Burn
1:2 vs Esperblade
2:1 vs Merfolk

Played the "basic" build, but without 2nd Hoof - I decided to go with the following flexslots: 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Wrench's Run Packmaster

Sideboard:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege

I created it for an unknown meta and to try something out. Sadly i never saw the Packmaster (tried to zenith him once vs merfolk but was disrupted with force), so no details here. On the other side, WLL was very good (even i don't see any "Liliana, Hymn, Bolts or Charms - Matchups"). WLL Boost won me a critical game vs Burn (and i hate the new Eidolon, matchups can get very tricky if it is maindeck) and it also worked good enough vs Merfolk.

Match vs Esperblade he get early Cage game 2 and 3 and i can't find an answer... (draw 3 Zenith and 1 NO a game...), but even the game i faced 1 Cage, 1 Needle (WS) and 1 Jitte i got enough turns to find Decay, VShaman, Glimpse, WLL or Packmaster, because both players get into topdeck mode. Cage is good vs us, but i think WRP and/or WLL is a good answer if you suspect Cage (which also blanks NO+Progenitus). Overall i was unlucky vs Esperblade, but felt comfortable enough with enough outs in the deck to turn the game in my favour.

After my break with this deck, Hoofing some players into dust was great and i enjoyed the elvish playstyle once again.

Anyone see Josh Ravitz's latest article on SCG yet?

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...At-Legacy.html

"Reid Duke disagrees with me vehemently, but I think Elves is maybe the worst playable deck in the entire format, boasting what I consider to be almost no good matchups--it's quite good against Death and Taxes--and as a combo deck failing to dodge creature hate, it really is something remarkable."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kl'rt

Anyone see Josh Ravitz's latest article on SCG yet?

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...At-Legacy.html

"Reid Duke disagrees with me vehemently, but I think Elves is maybe the worst playable deck in the entire format, boasting what I consider to be almost no good matchups--it's quite good against Death and Taxes--and as a combo deck failing to dodge creature hate, it really is something remarkable."

---

Yeah, I saw it. And let there be many believers of that perspective, please. Let there be an entire wave of Elves-as-meh conformists. Perhaps this way, WoTC will print us up a few more goodies to improve the wonderful challenge that is Elves. Elves is as hard a deck to play well as there has been, especially in the legacy format. It has a decent shot against any deck and is not a shoe in against most because it is so pilot dependent. Other than Hoof, it's hard to say that the deck plays unfair, and even hoof is dependent on creating a robust board state. All this said, I am happy to let the naysayers harp on and on. Llampoon the Llanowars and besmirch the Birchlores all you like, says I. In the end, it is what our best pilots do on the battlefield that counts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lord_of_Rivendell

Yeah, I saw it. And let there be many believers of that perspective, please. Let there be an entire wave of Elves-as-meh conformists. Perhaps this way, WoTC will print us up a few more goodies to improve the wonderful challenge that is Elves. Elves is as hard a deck to play well as there has been, especially in the legacy format. It has a decent shot against any deck and is not a shoe in against most because it is so pilot dependent. Other than Hoof, it's hard to say that the deck plays unfair, and even hoof is dependent on creating a robust board state. All this said, I am happy to let the naysayers harp on and on. Llampoon the Llanowars and besmirch the Birchlores all you like, says I. In the end, it is what our best pilots do on the battlefield that counts.

---

Hear Hear.

I just thought it was funny that Elves won the Open the night that article went up. ><

Ravitz :

Quote:

---

Unfortunately, I don't have advanced copies of the T8 decklists from the SCG Open that takes place this and next weekend (at the time of writing), but it would be nice to have an even more complete picture heading into the tournament.

---

Yeah that's pretty unfortunate since (Elves)

Quote:

---

the the worst playable deck in the entire format

---

won that last SCG open defeating (Stoneblade)

Quote:

---

a deck people are not playing right now

---