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Eminai, can you explain the Bobs in the sb over additional past in flame, which seems pretty effective vs discard... drop the artifact acceleration into play as you draw it and if they rip you apart with duress or hymn flashback past... seems like its better if you are already splashing red for past?
Bob is w/e. He does what he does. I only board him for Team America, the mirror, and CB, and leave him out vs. Landstill, other tempo, Junk, etc. TA he does his job fairly well, but if they expect it you can also gain value on the reboard. Mirror is the mirror, Bob crushes, though vs. TES I'm unsure how insane he is or isn't (T8 match was likely variance though, so w/e), and CB I haven't at all tested the Bob Tendrils plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by practical joke
plain old standard, straightforward double ad nauseam list:Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
15x land ( 2 island, 1 swamp, 2 seas, 10 fetch) could do -1 island + 1 sea
4x dark ritual
4x cabal ritual
4x lotus petal
4x LED
2x chrome mox
4x duress
3x thoughtseize
4x infernal tutor
4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x preordain
1x iggy
1x tendrills
2x ad nauseam
It's possible that 3 Bob 1 PiF is better than 4 Bobs, but I think that with anyone that you want bob against, you want bob in play pretty reliably, so I think that if a second PiF comes it, it's probably over the EtW.Quote:
Originally Posted by dillonkbase
With three Reanimator decks in the the top 16 (two in the top 4), I would expect people to add more Graveyard hate to combat Reanimator; similar to what happens when Dredge does well at one of these events. That Graveyard hate does have the secondary benefit to those decks in cutting off at least one, if not two of this decks engines. However, Ad Nauseam and chaining tutor effects work fine. Besides, I would rather have them bring in Graveyard hate instead of dedicated storm hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eminai
Everyone and their mother will be playing Spell Snare now that Misstep is gone and Snapcaster Mage is printed. This hurts the Bob plan a lot. I also think something like Extirpate is needed versus Reanimator, since that MU is tuff. Thoughts?Quote:
Originally Posted by AriLax
I think Cremate is the best anti-Reanimator spell much like Rebuild is better than Hurkyls. If you are going off and have it in hand, it actually gets value.
As for Snare in TA, I'm unsure. I think it is just as likely they move to Spell Pierce and/or Stifle. In CB, if they have Snare I would want to Doomsday them anyways. In the mirror, well, Bob.
So, since I want to start with combo now that MM is gone, I have assembled this deck for testing purposes. My plan to get familiar with it is to first goldfish it, then step up to test against decks with slight disruption and a medium clock (e.g. Maverick) and then move on to test vs something like TA/Canadian/Merfolk(/anything else that might arise now).
Any additional suggestions?
What your doing sounds pretty straight forward. When I first picked up storm combo I liked watching videos of people playing games with it to understand certain thought patterns that might go through. Its also nice sometimes, when confronted with a certain situation that you cannot solve, to post it here and see if there is a way to work through it.
Keep on going at it, and remember when you goldfish to have a goal and stick to it. Tell yourself, turn 4 I want to generate 12 storm, protected, with a duress the turn before I go off, etc. etc. etc
Also have tons of practice playing against thoughtseize.hymn.dec - its a rough beating.
Edit: Sideboard - every game you play against an opponent, sideboarding is a bizarre game in itself.
Just want to share with you this list, it's a souped up version running 2 Ad Naus, 2 ToA, 2 City of Traitors, 3 Chrome Mox
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Duress
3 Pact of Negation
2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 City of Traitors
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
The goal is to cast Ad Naus before they can Hymn you and against blue go off turn 1-2 spending 0 mana on protection (Pact of Negation). 2 Ad Naus increases this possibility, having it early means no turn is wasted digging for it (or Infernal Tutor). Plan is simple: Rit + Rit + Ad Naus/(IT) flip Tendrils and win. This is where Pact of Negation shines. Ofc the downside is you lose the Pact if you crack LED > IT, nonetheless it will protect your ritual chain. 2 City of Traitors + 3 Chrome Mox to speed up the deck by a full turn, this also makes Ad Naus with 0 floating mana not too inhibiting. 2 Tendrils and no IGG because Ad Naus into ToA is really just what you need, besides you wouldn't want counterspells flashing back at you. You can bring in an IGG from the sideboard if worry about your life total being low to Ad Naus against Zoo or Burn. Gitaxian Probes are great at upping the storm count + setting up multiple draws in a turn after an EOT Brainstorm or mainphase Preordain/Ponder then going off the same turn with the drawn cards.
Regarding Bob and some other stuff, there are a few points.
1. Against CB-Top, you land him, he wins you the game. Yes, he is that strong.
2. You play Bob. He snares. You lose a card that you don't really need (lets be honest, your cards are stronger than his), he lost one that hardcounters your tutors. Seems like a good deal. If he doesn't, see point 1. Bob wins.
3. Mirror. As far as I've tested (against Duress, not Chant), it's an all-out discard war in the first few turns. Usually, the person with the better Brainstorm or more discard (and better topdeck skills) wins. So a constant stream of cards and also maybe 2 or 3 stormcount less is enough to warrant his inclusion after boarding.
4. Playing a 4c manabase isn't bad at all.
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Swamp
1x Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Volcanic Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Badlands
With this setup, you are basicly playing 2 basic islands (1 + 1 Tropical). If they waste your tropical, well.. good for you, they didn't waste a land that actually matters. If they don't, it's a basic island. The matchups in which the Trop matters are the ones who don't play Wastelands. You also have access to two red sources (Burning Wish + Meltdown/Past in Flames/Grapeshot). And you can fetch three basics to have a stable basis.
5. Burning Wish. I don't see decks winning against Surgical Extraction / Extirpate / Earwig Squad without it. Well timed and they can wreck your deck very easily.
6. Regarding Past in Flames. It's a bit sad. I had hoped for the players to recognize the new Will, but it seems that they don't. More input regarding this would've been nice, but I guess being one of the few bringing the monster to Amsterdam will have it's good sides.
I hope this post doesn't sound too arrogant / too full of myself but it needed to get out :/
I can vouch for that 4c fetchland manabase's viability (cutting one Swamp for a total of fourteen lands). Also, I can't say I've come to the same conclusion on PiF, but I'd love to be enlightened.
@death: I don't like my cards being anti-synergistic among them, even if in small numbers or unlikely patterns. Pact of Negation plus LED is bad, and I don't see the necessity of Pact when
-Misstep is gone, hence the double-counters hand are way less frequent. They need Force+Snare to stop a Duress before an Infernal Tutor.
-They have printed a GODLY card for Tendrils Storm named Gitaxian Probe which acts like a free protection spell and has become an auto-include, in my opinion, because it gives you precious information about what your opponent is playing and how much time you're given to set up the combo, life remaining, a hatebear coming, etc. Which maximizes, consquently, your Duresses and the right time to cast them.
If you really want to speed up the deck, you can just take the standard UB list and cut a basic and a fetchland for the 2 Cities of Traitors, and add a second Ad Nauseam. Of course this implies adding Moxes too, thus making the deck less consistent. It's a normal tradeover. Still, I'd run Thoughtseizes, or even Therapies given Probe, before Pact of Negation, because the percentage of having Ad Nauseam in hand remains low, and that's the only scenario where Pact would shine.
Also, the second Tendrils is not needed. I get perfectly the "chain from hand" route, but adding another cmc4 can seriously harm the deck. If you stay on 2 Nauseams and a single Tendrils, you obtain a curve that's pretty identical to the normal lists (IGG costs 4, AdN 5). You can use that slot to fill another cantrip and thus maximize the chances of drawing the Ad Nauseam or the Tutor.
If I were to play an aggressive version, I'd go like this:
7-8 fetchlands
2-3 USea
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Cities
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
4 Dark ritual
4 Cabal ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED
2 Chrome Mox
4 Infernal
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy/TSeize
Pretty squared, pretty straightforward. You could even go down to 14 lands, but I'm skeleptical because opening hands with City-only is an auto-mull.
2 Moxes because I frankly hate the card and that's the maximum quantity playable. More just make the deck that less consistent. You don't want this to become TES.
Based on that sentence introducing your post, I'm wondering why the hell would you add four Gitaxian Probe to an all-out Ad Nauseam list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
Quote:
Originally Posted by flrn
For a second I almost thought the thread was backwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
Because Gitaxian Probe speeds up the deck because it acts like a free protection spell, allowing you to use the mana to cantrip. 2 lives is still an acceptable loss, even in Ad Nauseam scenario, considering he's playing 2-3 Moxes while the majority of the modern builds have cut it completely. Furthermore, if you're playing against control or a slow deck, you can just cast it with mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by flrn
What I was refering to with the opening sentence is the incapability to use Pact of Negation properly when you have a hand that wins via Infernal tutor+LED, and not Ad Nauseam. Pact of Negation used to shine when combined in the Chant builds because Chant is way more dangerous than a Duress and people used to counter it everytime. A good blue player would never counter a Duress if he holds double counter. Leaving you with a dead Pact of Negation in hand.
Again, its best use is when combined with a Ad Nauseam in hand. That doesn't seem so likely, or better, you'll have to spend 2-3 turns cantripping the majority of the time into it, making Ad Nauseam considerably worse (aggro-control, tempo decks) or letting them having all the time to find countermeasures. Just to play a Pact? I think it's better to exploit the sinergy between Probe, Duress, and Therapy, that is as cheap and functions pretty efficiently.
I still wonder why probe acts like a free protection spell. I hear alot of people say that but I dont see what it protects. It just gives valuable intel.
Its more like half a protection spell. It doesn't actually protect. But it givea verry valuable information as to when its safe to go off, how to bait your threats and so on. I won no less than 3 games at indie because of this.
@Piceli89
Thank you for your comments, your arguments are valid. But at this time I won't let go of Pact of Negation yet, for the reason being it's a free protection spell. The difference between my list and traditional UB is that it packs extra "9" free spells (3 Pact of Negations/3 Chrome Moxen/3 Gitaxian Probes) which in my opinion boosts up speed. With City of Traitors the deck can put away games rather quickly. However I would like to make changes to the manabase and eliminate all basics except for 1 Island because unlike Reanimator which can live with 1 Island 1 Swamp, this deck needs both colors. Off-color basics paired with City of Traitors is a huge speed bump and can completely shut off casting of spells.
2 City of Traitors
1 Island
4 Underground Sea
8 blue fetchlands
Aside from being a "pseudo" protection spell, Gitaxian Probe has potential, with LED + Ad Nauseam though. When short on mana LED can give 3 free mana (like Black Lotus), if you can set up an Ad Nauseam on top of your library with Ponder/Brainstorm. Play LED, cast Gitaxian Probe (with Ad Nauseam on top), crack LED in resp. draw and cast Ad Naus with LED/City of Traitors mana. Same trick as with Infernal Tutors, seems equally fast as when you drew all your rituals.
In testing, I found Gitaxian Probe to be underwhelming. The ability to have it replace itself and act as a three mana draw spell is somewhat useful. I found this is mitigated when using it with Ad Nauseam because even if you flip a Gitaxian Probe, it is still going to count as a -3 life instead of -1. The reason is that if you have access to blue mana, any other cantrip is preferable. Even if, there are situations where I would want to pay life to cast Gitaxian Probe, I found that other spells are much better in terms of helping the deck win (see below).
The main argument I am seeing for its inclusion is the fact it provides one with necessary information in order to win. It acts as a "pseudo" protection spell. If that is the main benefit, why not increase the maindeck discard spell count to 7-8? It provides the same information and is an actual protection spell. Granted, it is not free and does not draw a card, but I believe the discard spells helps the linear nature of the deck in a more effective way than Gitaxian Probe. Even if Gitaxian Probe can set up tricks with Ad Nauseam, that doesn't matter if your opponent is holding a counterspell. The discard seems to be
the most relevant inclusion since decks with countermagic or the mirror are the decks we have a decent probability of losing too and discard improves those match-ups.