[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

I have a couple questions:

• Why do you guys only run a single Volrath's Stronghold and a single Phyrexian Tower? Doesn't Wasteland just tear you up? Or are these lands not all that important?
  
• Anyone ever run a High Market? Isn't it another sac outlet? Not that it would be great, but it is there.
  
• Is there a minimum number of basics you think is best? I see a lot of lists with different numbers of Veteran Explorer, some run a full 4, some run 3. Does that change the minimum number of basics?

I ask all this because I'm thinking of throwing something together with what I've got and don't want to go out and spend a ton of money on cards I could live without. Besides, I've got some stuff like Rectors, Vindicates and a Rebirth laying around collecting dust and I want to play 'em again.

Thanks guys.

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Originally Posted by TerribleTim68

I have a couple questions:

• Why do you guys only run a single Volrath's Stronghold and a single Phyrexian Tower? Doesn't Wasteland just tear you up? Or are these lands not all that important?
  
• Anyone ever run a High Market? Isn't it another sac outlet? Not that it would be great, but it is there.
  
• Is there a minimum number of basics you think is best? I see a lot of lists with different numbers of Veteran Explorer, some run a full 4, some run 3. Does that change the minimum number of basics?

I ask all this because I'm thinking of throwing something together with what I've got and don't want to go out and spend a ton of money on cards I could live without. Besides, I've got some stuff like Rectors, Vindicates and a Rebirth laying around collecting dust and I want to play 'em again.

Thanks guys.

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Both Stronghold (for the builds that run it) and the Tower are legendary. Some builds, like my Rector build, run 2 Towers, but never more than that. As for Wasteland -- we run Eternal Witness, if it really matters that much. Also, most people that are in the market for gy recursion opt for Recurring Nightmare as an engine, as opposed to taking up a colorless land slot with a Stronghold.

High Market is plausible, I suppose, but Tower is usually better, because it's another source of mana acceleration. Generally speaking, the 2 mana is much more useful than the 1 point of life. You could run both, but then you're starting to get into too many colorless lands. Nic Fit has to be careful about how many colorless lands it plays, because so much of your mana base is eaten up by basics. If you run too many colorless lands, you end up running the risk of screwing yourself out of a color.

I'm not sure where you're seeing competitive lists that are only running 3 Explorers, but I would not encourage that. We're a stage 3 attrition/control deck, which ramps to its endgame before most decks hit their midgames. To that end, most of the better Nic Fit lists run not only the full 4 Explorers, but usually a 2-of of some backup ramp source as well, in case of problems with the Explorers. These can be Sakura-Tribe Elders, Deathrite Shamans, Wood Elves, and/or Nature's Lore.

As for a basic count, I'd recommend between 6-8. If you want to run ScapeWish, you're looking at a higher count (9-10), but since you said you have Rectors, I'm guessing you aren't worrying about that.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

...Some builds, like my Rector build, run 2 Towers, but never more than that. ...

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Do you mind posting that list?

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Originally Posted by TerribleTim68

Do you mind posting that list?

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Quick tip. His signature has the best lists for each type. Or at least some of the best lists this entire thread has to offer.

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Originally Posted by TerribleTim68

Do you mind posting that list?

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His sig

Note that I'll be updating both Rector and ScapeWish lists after this weekend. Both versions will be attending Jupiter Games on Saturday, and I should have some updates to make after that (assuming my changes work as well as I think that they will).

Also, Tim, be warned that Rector isn't a cheap deck to build if you don't have the stuff lying around. It runs both Moat and Nether Void, and unfortunately there isn't really a good replacement for either. If you have to, you can run it Moatless at least while you try to get enough winnings to acquire a Moat, but there's no real substitute for Nether Void at all. If you don't have a Nether Void, you basically don't beat combo.

One of these days I should really try to theorize a budget list to deal with that problem.

One more thing (Uncle OP. bonus points to anyone who gets the reference). I see from your signature that you have a lot of decks. I feel compelled to offer you a warning. Nic Fit as a whole is a very, very challenging archetype. Rector in particular is a beating, even beyond that. You can play it, and have fun with it at any skill level. That isn't an issue. But doing really well with it takes a lot of time and effort. It's a tremendous weapon once you've put that time in, and Rector in particular has basically no bad matchups in the greater metagame currently. But you have to be prepared to make play mistakes, to adopt the wrong line of play, and, perhaps most damningly of all, you have to be willing to go to time every single round while you learn it. Once you know what you're doing, it's actually really easy to win within the round. But time and again I've seen new pilots pick up the deck and quickly drop it again after a month or so, for any of a variety of reasons. If you pick it up and focus on it, you're not going to find a much better deck. But it's not a "grab and go" deck. You will lose, and it will suck at first. Most of the people in this thread will vouch that, I think.

But yeah. My advice would be to proxy it up and get in a few games with it. Assuming you're of at least average skill (which, again, I'm assuming based on your sig), you should be able to make her fire properly at least once over the course of a night of testing. Then that can give you the read on whether you want to go down the rabbit hole or not.

Cool beans guys, thanks. Yea, I fully understand that it's gonna take some time to grasp, like any good deck. Just looking for something that will have some enjoyment, and be different from the typical deck I run now.

While I do have a lot of decks, that doesn't mean I play them all or jump around a lot. :wink: It helps to throw off the ones on here that I play against at my LGS. :tongue:

I am currently still not playing but I watched a bit again and wanted to share a few things. A Scapeshift version top16ed SCG open. Not sure if you already knew because it was mislabeled. Here is the link: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...6&iddeck=70795

I also wanted to note that I am very sure that Rector versions need to start playing 1 Recycle (or Null Profusion). Once out the card is imbalanced and there is nothing remotely close to it. It might not look like much but it is draws you ~3-6 cards each turn (you also have Flashback Therapy and Top activations to avoid a lock from Hymn or double Stifle).

Here is some not much tested theorycrafting:

- I think GBU is stronger than GBW right now. Abrupt Decay is awesome and Swords to Plowshares isn't good atm. I think Jace is at least on one level with Rector and on top of that you get to play 4 Brainstorm and SB Negates. White has not as much to offer at the moment I think.

- One Thragtusk does not seem enough I think, the card is sick. Immune to yard hate, beastly against both Aggro and Control. I don't think it would be wrong to play three or even four of them. On a related note Recurring Nightmare / Thragtusk is pretty unbeatable.

Another scapewish deck that nobody has commented is this one which won a 70 people tournament in Spain: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=70201


Some interesting things as for example 3 Abrupt Decays and 2 Diabolic Intent maindeck, and one big absence, Thragtusk, that is completely opposed to what Tao said.

My first thought is that in the current meta decays and intent are good choices, but Thargtusk and maybe Volrath's stronghold have to be there. What do you think?

Hey Tao, good to see you pop in.

Have you actually tested Recycle/Profusion? I've always kind of wanted to, but been too scared to actually try it.

I think that in the abstract, BUG is stronger than Junk, and both are stronger than most everything else (as color combinations, not as decks). However, I do think that the perpetual confusion of this thread with regards to what the strongest BUG build would look like causes a serious problem for taking advantage of the inherent power of the BUG combination. The various Junk lists (Rector and the more Rock-like versions) are much more tuned and refined, and as a result, I feel that they are still the "correct" choice, as much as anything ever is when talking about purely deck-based theory. Obviously this is excluding Scapewish from the discussion. But if we're just talking BUG vs Junk, I think that Junk has to win the war based solely off of experience and results, whereas BUG operates from the theoretical "this should be better" land.

I agree with you regarding Thragtusk. The problem with running more than the 2x that ScapeWish opts for is room. In any white list, Tusk is competing with Sigarda, and I can't imagine that -not- running a Sigarda is ever correct if you're in white. She doesn't leave behind a 3/3, but she's also impervious to basically everything, and she has evasion. Scapewish doesn't have room for more than 2 copies, just in general. I suspect that the 3-4 Tusk version would go in line with my earlier note about Trostani and Rectoring for Greed as a CA engine. Such a list wouldn't need, or even want to run Sun Titan and Yosei, so jamming more Thragtusks would be perfectly fine.

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Originally Posted by soiber2000

Another scapewish deck that nobody has commented is this one which won a 70 people tournament in Spain: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=70201


Some interesting things as for example 3 Abrupt Decays and 2 Diabolic Intent maindeck, and one big absence, Thragtusk, that is completely opposed to what Tao said.

My first thought is that in the current meta decays and intent are good choices, but Thargtusk and maybe Volrath's stronghold have to be there. What do you think?

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Decay is fine. Intent seems atrocious in Scapewish -- especially since he trimmed down the creature package to fit them in! Also: look at the other decks that top 8'd. That is a BEAUTIFUL field for Scapewish. The only bad matchup is Sneak Attack. Everything else should just fold to it. It's hardly surprising that it took 1st.

Not running Thragtusk in Scapewish is horrid, though. All Scapewish needs is time, and Tusk gives you a literal ton of it. To say nothing of the fact that Tusk and Huntmaster are a solid beatdown plan in and of themselves. Like, you honestly don't even need anything else to beat down with. They do it all, both on defense and offense.

I also dislike his sideboard choices, but /shrug. Slaughter Games isn't getting the credit it deserves in any format right now. People will come around eventually. Or they won't, and we'll just keep trolling people with it. Either way, lol.

Edit for a quick note.

As I go to close the tab that I opened that deck in, I noticed what it was named on Council. Coupled with SCG's atrocious naming conventions, I highly doubt that we're ever going to get into Decks to Beat again, regardless of whether we deserve it or not. I know that I messaged Nihil Credo about that once, a while ago -- the list that took 6th, I think it was, at SCG Minneapolis, was improperly named. As a result, it never showed up on the audit that determines DTB. While that wouldn't have been enough to propel us back into the DTB forum anyway, I figured I would point it out regardless.

Not that it really matters -- I'm proud of the work everyone is doing in here, and I think that we can all safely say that we kick ass, whether or not Council.es agrees. Besides, we beat up on the cool kids -- why would we want to be a part of the cool kids' club ourselves? =D

Actually, I kind of like Nic Fit being off the radar like this. It makes it easier to sneak some wins in.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Hey Tao, good to see you pop in.

Have you actually tested Recycle/Profusion? I've always kind of wanted to, but been too scared to actually try it.

I think that in the abstract, BUG is stronger than Junk, and both are stronger than most everything else (as color combinations, not as decks). However, I do think that the perpetual confusion of this thread with regards to what the strongest BUG build would look like causes a serious problem for taking advantage of the inherent power of the BUG combination. The various Junk lists (Rector and the more Rock-like versions) are much more tuned and refined, and as a result, I feel that they are still the "correct" choice, as much as anything ever is when talking about purely deck-based theory. Obviously this is excluding Scapewish from the discussion. But if we're just talking BUG vs Junk, I think that Junk has to win the war based solely off of experience and results, whereas BUG operates from the theoretical "this should be better" land.

I agree with you regarding Thragtusk. The problem with running more than the 2x that ScapeWish opts for is room. In any white list, Tusk is competing with Sigarda, and I can't imagine that -not- running a Sigarda is ever correct if you're in white. She doesn't leave behind a 3/3, but she's also impervious to basically everything, and she has evasion. Scapewish doesn't have room for more than 2 copies, just in general. I suspect that the 3-4 Tusk version would go in line with my earlier note about Trostani and Rectoring for Greed as a CA engine. Such a list wouldn't need, or even want to run Sun Titan and Yosei, so jamming more Thragtusks would be perfectly fine.

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Yeah, I had tested it for quite a while. It is really good. Every spell you cast and land every land you play has simply "draw a card" added to it. The reduced hand size is no problem because GBw usually plays with few hand cards anyway and the skipped draw step is not very relevant in comparison to how much you do each turn. I have also never been caught in a lock so far. The risk is very small, especially if you know what you do. You have to play a bit careful when up against Hymn/Stifle decks but Top and Therapy Flashback help there. Getting caught with two uncastable spells (2 Abrupt Decay) is also unlikely enough to be neglected. I would unconditionally recommend it.

Btw what are your thoughts on Lingering Souls?

What do you guys recommend if you're playing the rector build and you don't have access to moat? Play Raking Canopy maindeck? I heard that some people were having success with Debtor's Knell in the past. Would that go in for the Moat? I've been playing this deck on Cockatrice for the last month or so and I can tell I'm starting to get better with it. I want to buy one of the decks in paper but I'm not sure which one I should go for. Would it be wise to pick up a few Bayous and Deeds because they're run in almost every list?

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Originally Posted by Tao

Yeah, I had tested it for quite a while. It is really good. Every spell you cast and land every land you play has simply "draw a card" added to it. The reduced hand size is no problem because GBw usually plays with few hand cards anyway and the skipped draw step is not very relevant in comparison to how much you do each turn. I have also never been caught in a lock so far. The risk is very small, especially if you know what you do. You have to play a bit careful when up against Hymn/Stifle decks but Top and Therapy Flashback help there. Getting caught with two uncastable spells (2 Abrupt Decay) is also unlikely enough to be neglected. I would unconditionally recommend it.

Btw what are your thoughts on Lingering Souls?

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Huh. I'll try it in place of Arena sometime and see what I think.

Uh. Lingering Souls is pretty good in Junk, because Liliana of the Veil synergy is sooo good. There's probably some token build of Nic Fit somewhere that would like Souls...especially if you like, Rector into the +3/+3 to all dudes GW enchantment, or something. 4/4 Explorers are scary. So are 8/8 Baneslayers. In a traditional Rector build, though, there just isn't room. Like, making maindeck changes to my Rector build is actually painful now, because I'm really happy with every card in the deck, and the way with which they fill the certain roles that I want filled. The only real complaint that I have regarding Souls as a card, aside from space, is that it's an efficient card, not a powerful one. Therefore, it falls under the same category as things like Nimble Mongoose or Goyf. It definitely does has a degree of power, but traditional Nic Fit doesn't have a way to break it. You can't generate advantage with Liliana of the Veil the same way that Junk does. You also can't suit up the tokens with equipment like 'Blade can.

So yeah. I'd slap Souls with a fringe playable within the archetype. I think there are definitely lists that like it, but the more "mainstream" versions will probably steer clear.

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Originally Posted by nottz

What do you guys recommend if you're playing the rector build and you don't have access to moat? Play Raking Canopy maindeck? I heard that some people were having success with Debtor's Knell in the past. Would that go in for the Moat? I've been playing this deck on Cockatrice for the last month or so and I can tell I'm starting to get better with it. I want to buy one of the decks in paper but I'm not sure which one I should go for. Would it be wise to pick up a few Bayous and Deeds because they're run in almost every list?

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Uh. If you don't have Moat, Canopy is not the answer, lol. You probably run the 4th Deed, and then switch out Yosei for Armada Wurm. Moat is essentially filling the role of the 4th sweeper in the deck, although it does a lot more than that too.

Debtors' Knell wasn't good. If you want a big bomby enchantment, Tao's Recycle/Profusion tech is probably where you should be looking. When Knell got rolling, it was pretty beast, but it was always hard to get moving, and it quickly turned into a win-more card, unlike Nightmare, which can actively get your ass out of all kinds of situations.

The other option for Moat replacement is Planar Collapse. It isn't GOOD, certainly, but I don't think it's completely horrid for the role you want that slot to play: a secondary Rector-able sweeper. Moat just "sweeps" non-flying creatures every turn. Kind of.

And yeah, if you think you want to end up in Nic Fit somewhere, then Bayous, Verdants, Deeds, Explorers, Therapies, Tops, and Green Suns are all really solid pickups.

Thanks. I'll probably pick some of the staples up while I think about it. Sorry about the Raking Canopy thing, I wasn't really thinking. I thought Moat and Canopy did the same thing because I'm stupid.. haha. I have a friend who has a moat so he may let me borrow it if I get the deck. Thanks for the help.

Would 4 colorless lands be too much in a 3 color list running 9 fetches, 3 duals, and 8 basics? I want to replace Treetop Villages with Mishra's Factory and see how that works out.

Also, as for BUG v Junk in Nic Fit, BUG has a lot of variance so far as already said. However BUG biggest boons over Junk is access to some of the best card draw spells with Brainstorm and Standstill and access to the best alternative win-con in the form of JMS (well, best comparing BUG to Junk: Scapewish wins games out of nowhere of course). I'm actually toying with the possibility of dropping a living wish and Top entirely to make room for 3 Standstill.

I don't think that factories hurt the mana too much. There will be times of course where you are cursing them but the payoff can sometimes be better than the reward. My advice is to try them and see if you like them enough to deal with the variance that they bring.

I've been wanting to play Rector again and after back reading some stuff and thinking about it i think i'm going to try a list similar to this:

Mainboard (61)

22 Lands
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath

16 Creatures
4 Academy Rector
1 Baneslayer Angel
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thragtusk
4 Veteran Explorer



22 Other spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Faith's Fetters
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Moat
1 Null Profusion
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Vindicate

1 Planeswalkers
1 Karn Liberated

I've chopped the Deed to a Tutor target, getting in Abrupt Decays.
Also cut the Elspeths and 1 Baneslayer for an extra Rector and some ramp in the form of Deathrite Shaman.
Testing will tell if i want more Deeds back in, but relying more on Deathrite Shaman means you don't always want to Deed the board, aswell as there being less Swarm decks and more Midrange/Tempo decks where Abrupt Decay is all-star :)
Tell me what you think :)

Am I the only one that thinks Collective Blessing with Rector and Lingering Souls is legit? SFM and Batterskull become so much more efficient, in fact, anything that sticks 2 bodies or populates for a cheap cost (Blade Splicer?) becomes really appealing.... It makes Diabolic Intent much more reliable as well. I think that if we were looking for a more aggro type of Nic Fit deck (Less Deed-centric), this is it... There is less emphasis on the Explorer interaction as most of the good creatures are not GSZ-able, therefore GSZ becomes substituted by Deathrite Shaman. Bring the StPs back and couple them with Decay. Nic Fit meets Big Rock?

...I think I am having a bad case of uncontrolable Espeth and Flip-Garruk drooling