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Matt's opinion on SFM is basically also my opinion on SFM. In no way do I think it's a bad option, but cards have to be cut to make room somehow, which is very challenging in a deck like Nic Fit that could happily fill 70-75 card maindecks before running a "bad" card. At the end of the day, if you want to run SFM, nobody's stopping you or going to yell at you. It's a fine option, as are lots of others.
Nic Fit exists on a spectrum. From full on (basically) creature-less BUG walker control to pod/junk style midrange aggro decks. This lends the deck to an enormous amount of choices due to most people having slight preferences. I think this is one of the few decks that have a lower core of cards as the available options are very high.
This is simultaneously the joy and bane of this thread...
OH, is it my turn to beat the dead horse? NAW!
I have tried sfm in nic fit, specifically Skillerhino Junky and it aint where ya wanna be, if ya know what I mean.
The game plan is to play the better creatures than your opponent and attack on an axis so straight forward that your opponent sees it coming but cant stop it(RHINO STAMPEDE)
SFM is a different, much smaller, game plan that we don't even need. Not to mention it makes our outside looking in deck a stoneblade deck. We play the creatures in our deck because they are great not because some stupid 1/2 bitch gets us equipment to make them better.
I'm saying if ya havin' threat problems, I feel bad for you, son. I got 4 Skillerhinos and a bitch aint one.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/2016...278cf2ccbc.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
someone please photoshop some batterskull armor and a sofi in his mouth for me....
Yessss please!Quote:
Originally Posted by uncletiggy
On Stoneforge Mystic:
I think the discussion about SFM in Junk/Rhino Fit is an important one. As some of you explained before, this package is a crucial indicator for the direction of the build. At its hardest point, we move from the board control deck we used to be into a more „junkish“ midrange control deck.
In my opinion this isn't bad at all. We still play the bigger creatures. They only get better with equipments without them beeing win-more. As I stated before, sometimes a turn 3 Batterskull was my only way to survive early beats by aggressive decks. Yes, sometimes you blow up your sword or jitte with deed. But that means you were forced to do it, because your opponent otherwise would win the game and likely looses much more stuff than you are.
If your meta has a lot of Angler or Goyf, an equiped sword will make the difference between win and loss very often!
With the rise of Meren I cut my 3rd SFM, with the thought of having the chance to play another SFM twice a game. My package includes Batterskull and SoFaI main, with Jitte being in the sideboard. Knowing this is a debateable choice, the sword still did the most work for me: it singlehandedly crushes all kind of Delver decks when played correctly, and it gives me another helpful card in my main enemy no.1 matchup Shardless BUG (last week my lone Qasali Pridemage equiped with SoFaI faced a board of Strix, tapped Deathrite Shaman, his one-of TNN, Sylvan Library, Jace and Liliana with a resolved Vision last turn. He was at 9 life and my plan was to come unblocked for 4+2 dmg and then zenithing him to death with Siege Rhino. But the Visions gave him another Decay...)
Nonetheless, as Ari said, each of us has to decide wether to play it or not. But don't forget: We are no typical Stoneblade Deck, the Kor girl is not our main way to pressure. In Nic Fit, it complements our threats (usually Rhino/Sigarda, but why not Meren/Witness or anything else?) while also helping us to stabilize or to break board symmetry, which are very important things.
I had been working on a BUG walkers list, even bought some pieces and threw it together IRL, but it had issues. However, this Junk Beatdown version I'm tinkering with is putting up great results on cockatrice, and I've started to acquire the few cards I need to put it together for my next live tourney:
Creatures: 19
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Deathrite Shaman
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Eternal Witness
1x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Siege Rhino
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda Host of Herons
1x Grave Titan
Spells: 15
4x Path to Exile
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun’s Zenith
1x Birthing Pod
2x Painful Truths
Enchantments: 3
3x Pernicious Deed
Lands: 23
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
1x Scrubland
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
2x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath’s Stronghold
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Karakas
Sideboard: 15
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Golgari Charm
1x Pithing Needle
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Thoughtseize
2x Engineered Plague
3x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Krosan Grip
There's lots of decision points with this deck when it comes to design:
-For example, I've gone back and forth on Recurring Nightmare. Seems like it would be great, but most of the games where I draw it I'd rather just have a creature (or GSZ of course). You could say the same thing about Pod, but I'm still running it because it's not reliant on graveyard, and it's less overall mana commitment.
-I originally had a few abrupt decays, but as it has been said a few pages back, 3cc and less permanents generally aren't a big issue for this deck, it just goes bigger. I have found this in practice also to be the case.
-STP at first glance seems so great to me, but after I started playing with PTE I realized the primary beatdown plan was getting there so much more often. I observed several instances where a PTE drawn or in the hand won the game on the spot, whereas STP would give my opponent at least one other draw step.
-4 whole siege rhinos seems weird to me, but it's really where I want to be. If i've got the mana it's pretty much always the card I want to draw or GSZ for in most matchups.
-small green gsz toolbox package. I love it, having access to Teeg gives me a great shot game 1 against decks like storm, has obvious impacts in other popular matchups. Same goes for the other silver bullets I'm running.
-the 3-drop slot in this deck is very tricky, and it's where I struggle the most. I was originally running a Kourser of Kruphix, and it was pretty spicy, but too often I wanted to GSZ for witness after I had already used a witness, and for that reason I made the switch. The Knight of the Reliquary also seems odd, as it can't really be utilized fully with no wastelands, but I'm sticking with him as of now just because he's such a great beater for the mana he usually just draws removal or wins the game for you.
-Painful truths has been amazing every time it's drawn. This deck has the life gain to support multiple copies, and there have been a few games where it's been cast, brought back with witness and cast again which is wonderful.
Agreed that Titan is best card in this deck, from my testing - if you don't have Therapy to took down FoW, they will let resolve all other threads just to have answer to Titan, which lead to ganing initiative. Power of this construction is thread density which wins you game after it resolve. You right that 1 Titan is enough to win, but I would add 1 "Resolved" Titan, you want always play it as soon as it is possible, even if it's mean you trade it for their FoW, having 4 with GSZ is guarantee that you will draw more of them, they don't have so many permission to counter all of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I didnt test wishes build yet so can't judge them, but for sure Titan as a card have advantages on it's own - it's faster, dodge almost all permission in sort of spell snare, flusterstorm, Wail, Spell Pierce, CB etc.. Only good answers are FoWs and Counterspells. On other side Wish gives versatility in sort answers to proper decks which can be worth, win by Titan is sometimes to slow, you need dedicated disruption to survive vs combo for example. Proper testing is needed to answer this question.
I will test this list with sb:
3 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Wood Elves
2 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Windswept Heath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Savannah
3 Living Wish
SB: 1 Wurmcoil Engine
SB: 1 Glacial Chasm
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Crop Rotation
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Sadistic Sacrament
SB: 1 Thespian's Stage
SB: 1 Eye of Ugin
SB: 1 Primeval Titan
Thing which I dont like on start is having so many 1-ofs which lead to problem with wishes after SB. If you add for example Gaddock in G2 to MD, you can't wish for it, same is with Bojuka Bog (for sure it's better under crop rotation on instant speed).
This was my way of building Junk for sure. I looked at Titan as a way to ensure that S&T couldn't just plop S&T and win. My favorite time was:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
Op: S&T?
Me: Resolves (windmill Titan)
Me: Fetch Karakas and Maze of ith :D
Felt good. IMO, run a couple Manlands so your Prime-time can also be a Grave Titan.
BTW, you can instead Cabal Coffers and Urborg as a different thread that cranks out Emmy's does.
Hey guys,
I've been playing around with Abzan Nic Fit for a couple weeks, and I'm really enjoying the deck overall. It's got an answer to almost every deck in the meta (except I find OmniShow still pretty difficult).
Any suggestions about modifying the list? Siege Rhino is definitely a beast, and perhaps Dromoka would be better as a third Rhino, but the 5 lifelink every turn is sometimes better.
This list a rough adaptation of Echelon's and Bobman's (I think), and it has been very consistent and reliable in my hands. What do you guys think? Is it redundant to have Courser and Nissa? Should Dromoka be taken out? Path to Exile is so good!
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Path to Exile
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Painful Truths
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Windswept Heath
2 Pithing Needle
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Militant
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Engineered Plague
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize
2 Tsunami
The third swamp should be a heath for certain.
Id also cut atleast one of the colorless lands for the third forest or a ninth fetch.
one top seems low ive never left home without 3.
qpm and rec sage are redundant you can loose one.
4 thoughtseize seems too all in on discard leyline of sanctity leaves you cold.
The board changes will require some insights to where you intend to run it. be it online local or 7+ round. Its the most over looked aspect of critiques and lists presented. where how long and who you have a guaranteed read on matters.
What I'm currently running, for reference:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
2 Painful Truths
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren
4 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Phyrexian Tower
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
-----BOARD-----
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Thoughtseize
2 Krosan Grip
2 Slaughter Games
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
1 Elspeth/Sigarda #2 (depends on your Shardless/BGx vs. Miracles ratios in your meta)
Is it safe to assume library is in over what previously was nightmare? I know its been underperforming for you but im curious how library is with both truths and top its kinda half of both. Also how has your mana been I see your on 14g 11b 11w 7r no problems finding red or black? Aside from that we're cycling together im on:
4 vet
2 drs
1 scooze
1 qpm
1 courser/nissa/teeg
1 ewitness
4 rhino
1 sigarda
1 tusk
3 top
4 zenith
2 truths
1 nightmare
4 therapy
3 decay
3 path
3 deed
1 pulse
21 lands
2 bayou
1 scrub
1 savanna
1 badlands
3 forest
2 swamp
2 plains
1 tower
4 catacombs
4 marsh flats
14g 14b 12w 9r
2 ts
2 games
2 needle
1 e. plague
1 cannonist
1 grip
1 teeg
1 militant
1 rip
1 garruk ph
2 flex
my current dilemma is I've never registered a 75 without a maindeck teeg aside from a brief dip into elves years ago. I'm really not sure who deserves that last slot. I'm also not sold on meren yet I know everyone thinks she's the bees knees and maybe the tusk should be a meren but tusk vs meren in the miracles matchup is the deciding factor for me for now if shardless and or dismember become more prevelant im my area I could see her being better. but so far shes lumped in with courser in that they dont solve any problems they are cohesive with the deck but dont actually add anything you really need id rather draw them thwn zenith for them to solve a board state.
Very stable build. I run abzan charm instead of truth and teeg maindeck. For the rest my "best " version is identical to yours (except the sb).Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
@all, about sfm: we still remain a big dudes deck, I run Thrun instead of a rhino but that's just my choice, otherwise the number of bombs in the deck is exactly the same. Equipments give us basically a bigger chance to survive in the late game especially against removal heavy decks: every dork, even a g1 teeg, becomes a threat when carrying a sword. Reading your posts it seems like we become a green dead guy ale sfm equipment deck, this is not true because imo the core of the deck remains the same.
Just wanted to add som
Gaddock Teeg + Qasali Pridemage/Reclamation Sage + Scavenging Ooze
Only when i'm in a consolidated meta i would choose to MD those cards, because in a wider meta chances are that those cards can be dead. And that is what i want to prevent from happening. Every card must be able to "do" something. Removal VS combo will mostly be dead already so at least i want to be able to punch face and not draw into more air. Scavenging Ooze is the exception here because it is useful against a lot of decks. It has hidden potential which is mostly only revealed if you accidently drop him on the board. Anyhow, Scooze is useful against nearly every decks as he gets you to gain life and grow big or just eat cards from the grave (nullifying DRS/Goyf/PFire/Dredge/Reanimator/SCM/Loam, etc).
Deathrite Shaman falls, more or less, under the same roof. To run him MD you got to be able to consistantly use it's mana ability, which isn't reliable enough. Also his effect is more often then not to small. It is a critter in comparison to our plan. But he still has useful application against certain matchup's and has more application then say Carpet of Flower's.
Running 4 Veteran Explorer's (and Nissa) really asks for enough lands to fetch. 7 Basics have been the perfect number for me since i have tested Stormbreath Dragon in Jund. With the 6 i used in the past i wasn't always getting maximum value out of a 2nd/3rd Veteran Explorer. Having 7 feels excactly the correct amount, plus that with 3 Forest's you a reliable nr to flip Nissa, while still go all-in with Explorer's. Generally my rule of thumb is to use Fetchland's to get Dualland's, unless i am forced to dodge Wasteland.
Between all the utility lands running Karakas and Dryad Arbor gives you a relevant color, as well as Phyrexian Tower. Plus the latter feeds Meren or gives really explosive starts. Volrath's Stronghold has become somewhat obsolete (which is a shame really), while i can imagine that some grindy builds can profit from the card. If you do so, then what is the correct amount of utility lands. 3 seems to be the "border", of course you have the occasional 1/2 land hand with only utility land's or offset color's. Isn't 4 going to be to much? Also a 2nd Phyrexian Tower increases chances on bad openers or weird/dead draws. Is a singleton Karakas good enough without a way to find it? Is running a singleton Knight of the Reliquary the way to go. Or do we want to a way to get our sacrificed lands back with say Loam? I have always felt that KotR is mediocre in NicFit. We don't focus on a wasteland plan and we only have Karakas as a real utility land to dig up. Dryad arbor has 7-8 fetch plus 4 GSZ to find it, while PTower is (often) only relevant at the start or to feed Meren.
When to GSZ for what is something i mostly follow the following principals (UNLESS the board state requires otherwise);
GSZ into Veteran Explorer #1 and/or #2 is what i mostly do to ramp into the game ASAP. This between Cabal Therapy, SDT and Removal. Sometimes you have a big dude at hand, so ramping into that is often what we are doing.
Unless, i have 4 mana when i untap i will (try to) GSZ into Courser so that my SDT will become more efficient, plus this allows a land drop every turn while also drawing something useful to do.
Unless, my board state allows GSZ into Nissa and flip her immediately. This is why i have 3 basic Forest in my library with a total of 7 basics. Any, flipping her gets to create either board presence or more card advantage on the spot.
Unless, i have to GSZ into Eternal Witness so that i have access to immediate removal or say Surgical Extraction/discard.
Unless, i have enough mana to GSZ into Sigarda, which on her turn locks the board. More often then not she can't be dealt with and wins the game from there.
Else, Siege Rhino beats.
This all makes Dragonlord Dromoka a bit unnecessary, still i want to replace this card for something else. The reason i included DLD is for Flying and Lifelink. AND because with all the manaramping i wanted to have something to go BIG. Also Swagtusk is a bit unnecessary here, although Thragtusk pulled the distance on occasion against Storm and Burn.
SO, the thing is; The only card i have really missed is Liliana of the Veil, but kinda hate the symmetric effect of her +1. On the other hand, she is not half bad against some combo decks (improving negative matchup's). Maybe cut 1 DLD for 2 Liliana and going to 61 MD. Which is a bit off a pity because i was really pleased with having 60 cards MD. On the other hand i could also choose to replace DLD with say Garruk, Vraska or OB Noxious.
I've been wondering about the CMC 6+ stuff as well.
Most of the time you don't necessarily need it, but it will still win you the game when it hits the board (which is never bad).
As for Dromoka, I like that I don't need to give a shit about counters when hardcasting it. You're sure to get your money's worth. Or force your opponent to have an answer for it. If your opponent doesn't, it blows a 10 life gap between you and your opponent each turn (best case scenario, ofcourse).
Hello everyone!
I'm new to nicFit, but I am already in love with this deck! I especially like the Abzan builds and have testet with them a little.
I have a question regarding Dragonlord Dromoka. I was very unhappy with that card, because most times when I wanted to zenith for a bomb, I hesitated to get DLD, because he would get removed immediately when i ship the turn. And since you have to zenith for her most of the time, the "can't be countered" phrase is more or less irrelevant. I haven't testet very much, only against miracles and lands. Against Lands, DLD was okay (when I got her out), but in miracles the card didn't do much.
So, as another option for a six-drop-bomb, what do you all think of Armada wurm? Costs the same as DLD (more colored mana, but when fetched with zenith, that's irrelevant) and brings two 5/5 trampling bodies.
Greetings!
Perhaps, and this is addressed by others, the CMC's we are currently looking at do not have an immediate impact to the board such as the Titans have. Or like any other creature we run, but on the powerlevel matching it's CMC. And i am not even sure we need a CMC => 6.
Brainfart; PrimeTime + Stronghold pushing main to 61 with 23 lands? PrimeTime into looping Rhino's each turn doesn't sound half bad.
When looking for a bomb and fearing spot removal, you have your trusty Sigarda. Same clock and evasion, has hexproof instead of lifelink.Quote:
Originally Posted by helvetios
Dromoka is only good against decks that cant remove him but karakas is no fun zone. Sigarda and thragtusk are where you want to be. Maybe play a one of batterskull and assemble 9/9 flying, hexproof, lifelink, vigilance sigarda the destroyer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon