Can somebody explain the purpose of the lone Mox? What would be the purpose to play it without Imprinting something? Just something you can replay for free if you are going off with Words of Wind and don't want to replay an enchantment?
Printable View
Can somebody explain the purpose of the lone Mox? What would be the purpose to play it without Imprinting something? Just something you can replay for free if you are going off with Words of Wind and don't want to replay an enchantment?
So a report from SCG Denver. Didn't run so hot but here's a short-ish tourney report.
Round 1 - vs Goblins 0-0-1
We get pairings for the 1st round and I look on the list and see I'm paired against one of the guys I rode down with who was borrowing Goblins from another guy we rode down with so off to a "great" start. I keep a fairly decent hand and run with it. I get beat down by 2 Lackey's for 4 turns with him putting nothing into play during this. Yeah we are so awesome at playing Legacy. I eventually draw a Grove and crack it to get Moat. Turns out when you're at 1 and they have Sharpshooter you're still dead. Game 2 and I'm on the play again and our last game took 30 minutes so I have to kill him in at least 10 minutes not too hard right? I lock him out with 7 minutes remaining and we are onto game 3. We end up going to turns and on turn 5 I literally drew 40 cards and didn't find either WoWar or Sigil, they were the bottom 2 cards of my remaining deck. So it's a 1-1-0 draw.
Round 2 - vs Hive Mind 0-1-1
So I sit down and we shuffle up. I ask my opponent how his last round went. Obviously not very good but at least we are in the draw bracket right? He wins the die roll and goes underground sea into ponder. I figure he is either on Reanimator, TES or ANT. Next turn he plays Volcanic Island and I'm thinking I'm super dead to Storm. He plays Grim Monolith and now the jig is up. Hive Mind...so I wasn't too far off from being super dead. He plays Hive Mind the following turn and pacts me to death. Game 2 I don't have much other than Choke to side in. He goes S&T into Hive Mind. I figure I'm not dead yet. I go for Enchantress and I get Pact of Negation and well that was all she wrote.
Round 3 - vs Deadguy Ale
After not being very happy for losing to Hive Mind I shuffle up and figure maybe I can make a comeback? I see it's the Deadguy Ale player from the Legacy challenge yesterday so I know he's on Deadguy Ale. I end up locking him fairly quickly with multiple groves, enchantress's, and a confinement in play. He didn't make me kill him he just scooped them up and we went to game 2. I have Leyline in my opening hand since I didn't want to get Inquisitioned and Thoughtseized into oblivion. He reads Leyline and he slumps in his chair indicating his hand is full of discard. We spend a few turns with me durdling and finding no enchantress effects. He vindicates my leyline and hits me with multiple discard effects and drops batterskull along with elsepth. Game 3 I have leyline opening hand again but my keep is stronger. We end up going to turns and on turn 5 I kill him with WoWar for exact damage. Whew...
Round 4 - vs Maverick 1-2-1
This is one of the only girls playing in the room and she had the same record as I did. We shuffle up and have some light conversation. Takes me 2 seconds to realize she's on maverick. Unfortunately for her I draw multiple Enchantress's and groves and I lock her on turn 5 or something like that. She realizes there is no way to kill me so she scoops. Game 2 I end up dying to a knight or something equipped with jitte and Feast and Famine and I scoop them up. Game 3 She plays turn 2 Thalia and I hold her off for a few turns with grass and I played a Presence along with a confinement. This is where it gets awful because all of a sudden there is an unknown card on the table. The girl starts panicking and tearing up because she was DQ'ed from a tournament for the same reason. This happens when she tries to hardcast her Feast and Famine for 3 with Thalia on board. We get the unknown card issue resolved and she gets a warning for that. Now back to the Feast and Famine for 3 mana issue. She asks the judge since it's on the stack can she tap her Mystic to put it into play rather than hardcast it. Judge says sure and well...with her 2 extra mana up she equips and hits me and it's downhill from there. The girl the following round had another issue with Thalia and a lotus petal which I heard took 20 minutes and 4 judges to resolve. She was a sloppy Maverick player and I think she was doing things on purpose to gain an advantage but I digress.
Round 5 - vs Esper Blade 1-3-1
There is no way I can lose to Esper Blade. I beat one of the local guys approximately 90% of the time. I keep a pretty good hand. He ends up vindicating my growthed forest and I never draw land over the course of 5 turns. The guy is confused thinking I'm some kind of maverick deck. Game 2 I lock him with choke since he fetched for only island based duals. He scoops shortly after. Game 3 I had the guy all I had to do was crack my grove for confinement and it would have been GG. I didn't because I thought he had surgical like every Esperblade player and I didn't want to get 2 for 1'ed. He jumps a soldier token he made with elspeth after equipping batterskull and I'm dead. I talk to him after the match and says I should have fetched for confinement. I told him I thought he had surgical and ends up telling me he didn't even have it in his board.
I end up dropping after this and eventually play against Adrian Sullivan in some for fun games and that pretty much ends my report.
A few things I want to note:
1. The meta is too fast for us right now. Combo is on the rise again and the fair decks are disappearing again or it seems that the fair decks are disappearing.
2. I think the UG version is better ATM because of it's ability to go infinite with mana and draw. Once you resolve 2 enchantress effects, 3 growths, WoWind and have a Cloud of Faeries you just win. Needs more testing and more tweaking though which I'm going to be experimenting with over the next few weeks.
3. I did get some compliments about my deck since I'm currently pimping it out. Most of the players around me smirked or had absolutely no idea what I was playing. Oh and worst idea ever was buying Korean Elephant Grass's. I had to explain what that card did all day long and the fact it's in Korean only made it worse.
If you don't want those Korean Elephant Grass's, I'll take them off your hands. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Imaginasian
Also, what list did you run? I don't think my list would've had a problem winning most of those matches, but you did seem to get fairly unlucky (both wincons in bottom two cards of deck. You just forgot to Sterling Grove Tutor for one. It's ok though, I did the same thing at my SCG event)
Live and learn, right? The thing you have encountered with your grasses is EXACTLY why i havent made gotten korean versions of stuff that cant be foiled. Everything in my deck that can be foil is (had one guy joke with me that it takes a certain type of sadist to love a deck like this enough to foil it lol). Everytime I do an open pretty much all of my cards get read, so it just isnt worth it to have each opponent not believe that sanctum actually does tap for a million, grass is that good, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginasian
Yeah combo has always been pretty rough, but we have a great matchup against decks that prey on combo. Fish, tempo thresh, etc. So its a gamble, but this deck hasnt been tier 1 since the days of gobbos being king and when creatures were pretty bad for the most part. And as such it just depends on what you run into out there. I still love the rogue factor of the deck that catches soooo many people off guard, and that should never be discounted (especially against players that dont do much legacy and have zero clue as to what we are playing or even the players that know it, but arent familiar with the ins and outs of the deck), but yes there are some pretty bad matchups out there for us.
I love my Korean Elephant Grasses. Even if I had the English copies of Grass I still would have spent all day explaining what it does. I'll post my list when I have some time. The worst thing about this is that this has been my best SCG Open. I've played Thopter Top and Maverick in the other two that I've attended and been disappointed getting paired against combo MU's that are virtually impossible to win. This time around at least I got to play against some fair-ish decks.
Easily the best thing of the weekend was my buddy playing Austin Yost on camera Round 3. But that's for the Ascension thread.
Could you bring him to post his decklist there? I'm playing the deck, too.
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=48994Quote:
Originally Posted by JanoschEausH
Hopefully I'm not violating any forum rules but that's my buddy's deck list.
The list I ran for SCG Denver was the following:
7 Forest
2 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Savannah
1 Taiga
1 Karakas
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
3 Solitary Confinement
1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Runed Halo
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Elephant Grass
1 Moat
1 Raking Canopy
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Replenish
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Green Sun's Zenith
Sideboard:
1 Karmic Justice
1 Humility
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Ground Seal
1 Stony Silence
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Choke
That list is quite close to mine; I'm not sure I like Horizon Canopy over another basic. How often is the card draw relevant? I tried it once, and hated the life loss.
I honestly thing Humility >>> Moat in this metagame right now; In what situations do you want Moat over Humility? And do you think that that outweighs the benefits of Humility (Great against RUG Delver, unbeatable against Maverick, Great in Sneaky Show/Griselbrand)
I don't think 2x Mirri's Guile is enough to actually make an impact in your draws; I suggest you cut a Replenish for the third.
Raking Canopy? Main deck? Why?
The Horizon Canopy is there just to dig deeper honestly. Believe it or not there have been times when I was going off and then drew 3 land and had the canopy to dig 1 card deeper and get me there. The life loss can matter at times and I've thought about cutting it.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmaul558
I actually got my list from Paul Lynch and was discussing this with him over the past couple of weeks. Moat just destroys tribal and pretty much locks RUG Delver and Maverick out of attacking us. I do understand that Humility is just as good in those MU's especially against Sneak Attack, but I asked the same question and well Humility shuts off half our engine first game and well that's bad at times.
Paul's list actually had 3 Mirri's Guile but I didn't want the 3rd. He cut an Arid Mesa for the 3rd Guile. I don't have much to elaborate on except that I maybe would want the 4th Elephant Grass in that slot instead of the land or another Guile.
The 1 Raking Canopy MD seems odd and I also asked Paul about this. When we have Moat down against RUG Delver it leaves them with only Delvers to attack us with. Raking Canopy kills them obviously when they attack which essentially shuts down all means of attacking us. Plus since the UW Miracles deck is picking up in popularity it shuts down their angels from attacking us. There were also other instances where it was useful...shuts down Lingering Souls tokens from attacking us.
Hey guys! Long-time Enchantress player, first-time Enchantress poster. I have a question for you guys:
I was thinking of playing Andrew Cuneo (Gainsay)'s list from Legacy MOCS, but something occurred to me: Can that deck ever actually beat a Force of Will if played against a competent player? It seems to me like if they have 4 Force of Wills (or, equivalently, Spell Pierces, Counterspells, Countertop with 3-drops, etc) for your 2 Words and your 2 Ewits, you just can't ever actually win the game.
I'm assuming Cuneo didn't Top 8 the MOCS without playing against a good Force of Will player, so I'm assuming I'm missing something. What am I missing? If I'm not actually missing anything, can the deck be tweaked to dodge or fix this issue? I'd like to shoehorn an Emrakul or something into the deck, just in case, if possible, but I'm not sure if I'm overthinking it.
Spell Pierce becomes invalidated quickly thanks to several Carpet of Flowers and 8 Wild Growth. Even with Counterspell and Force of Will the opponent will likely be able to only use 2 counters which most likely won't be enough. If they don't hit Enchantress Effects (they should) you're free to easily draw 1/2 your deck while generating mana with Cloud of Faeries and Seal of Removal. Hardcasting Mindbreak Trap also helps a little / can hit they're third counterspell for free.
After boarding, they also got to deal with GSZ for Gaddock and Jace 2.0. Counterbalance can be an issue if it comes online soon enough AND has a 3 floating on top. At this point you can still dodge it with GSZ for Harmonic Sliver.
The other thing about Andrew Cuneo's list fromt he MOCS is the eternal witness MD. Even if they counter say your WoWind, just regrowth it back. I'm tempted to play this in my local meta but everyone plays 4 surgical SB.
My friend and I were also discussing in the UG version could we play a helix pinnacle as an alternate win con? Not saying that getting there with Cloud of Faeries isn't the biggest slap in the face but shouldn't we have a backup plan since we can generate nearly infinite mana?
@Julian: Thanks for the info. About that "they should counter the Enchantress effects", though, is that actually true? Against "normal" Enchantress, you're right, but against Cuneo's list if they just counter the WoWinds and the ways to regrowth it (8 total in the deck, as opposed to 12 Enchantresses, including GSZ in both counts) I don't see how the deck can win. If the plan is "pray they don't draw 4 pieces of countermagic", that's a plan I can accept. Not sure I like it, but I can accept it. I suppose when you count GSZ as a WoWind it makes the math look nicer, though.
@Imaginasian: There are 4 total WoWind + Regrowths (E-Wits, in this case). Helix Pinnacle seems sweet. Not sure if good, but definitely sweet.
@ Julian: I saw that you changed the first Cardinal Rule. What, doesn't having a meta infested with the Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest combo seem legit? How fun would that be, having Enchantress be in every meta AND Tier 1? I know, 'tis silly. Still, how messed up would the meta be if it ever does get unbanned? :laugh:
On a separate note, I'm curious as to a currently untested "Cheat," for Emrakul in our deck: Hunting Grounds. Its a reasonable investment at only GW, the "condition," for its trigger is rarely an issue for our deck, its only reliant on them "casting," a spell, meaning it still triggers after Split-Second from Kgrip, plus it makes Living Wish variants of Enchantress slightly more viable. I'm not ready to sleeve it into my deck for tourney playtesting just yet, but of all the options our deck has run thus far for Emrakul cheats, this has to be the one of which I'm most fond.
Similarly, you could even test Oath of Druids as a cheat, although this one seems rather subpar by comparison and requires you adapt your build more heavily than Grounds. Off the top of my head, probably something like 1-4 Oath with 3-4 ETutor, 3-4 Grove, 2-4 GSZ, 4 Presence, 1 Argothian, and 2-4 Emrakul to support it. Like I said, this is a much heftier investment into the cheat, but its a possible option. :rolleyes:
I myself am not overly fond of Emrakul or cheat strategies. In fact, the only time I've ever particularly used him in my builds are those instances when Painter-Stone combos were prevalent in the metas. Regardless, I know some Enchantress players like him, so its always condusive to a deck developing experience to help develop strategies, even if I don't subscribe to them. ^_^
In regards to the blue build, I'm definitely considering take a step back into theorycrafting blue once again. Back when I was first getting into Enchantress several years ago the Blue variant was one I had considered as an option. Of course, my strategy at the time was rather awkward as I was much less experienced a player, and essentially only developed it as far as Cloud of Faeries, Words of Wind, Seal of Removal, and In the Eyes of Chaos.
No real major ideas to add to the thread atm, these are just thoughts I had as I rummaged through old deck notes and whathaveyou.
ForlornEgoist
Hey all,
On topic for the UG version; what about taking out some of those one-ofs and adding in Force of Will? Thinking it could help shore up the combo (belcher, ANT, S&T, etc.) MUs?
Anyone ever use them before or are they just card disadvantage?
I don't know if i missed something, but as far as i know, Oath of Druids is banned, isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
@ Odie:
We neither want nor have the means to support FoW. To begin with, the card disadvantage is killer. Combo decks can easily play around 1-2 counterspells. Actual Ux control decks can justify FoW as they run multiple types of counters, so for them FoW is merely a supplement. For us its a card that eats 4 slots, has little utility against other MU, and ultimately is a shot in the dark for drawing into (as all our CA & tutors are enchantment-based). Against those decks you're better off running Leyline supported by the utility card of said strategy (Solitary, Karmic, GY hate, etc.).
@ Janosch:
Yeah, thanks for catching that. It is, in fact, banned in Legacy. I just saw it in a junk pile, knew I had seen it in Vintage decks, and thought, "huh... why isn't this played?" I pretty much never look at the banned list as the decks I build are rarely if ever actually affected by cards on said list (directly, anyway).
Forlorn Egoist
Hey all, New poster/old viewer here.
I'm looking to head to the Cincinnati SCG Legacy event coming in October and would like to get some opinions on a couple of enchantress variations that I'm looking to play. (I copped out last year and went into the M12 draft opens -one word: terrible). I'm not letting this one get by though.
I'd like to get some thoughts of what is good/bad in each deck I have below and between the two which you'd recommend playing. I'll also give a little insight on some of the 'non-standard' cards that I have listed and why I believe they would be valid. They both have a WoWi base with the 1st similar to Andrew Cuneo's deck and the 2nd more of my stretch from the general G/W builds.
U/G Enchantress
Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Cloud of Faeries
2 Eternal Witness
Enchantments
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Elephant Grass
4 Seal of Removal
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
2 Words of Wind
2 Carpet of Flowers
Instants
4 Force of Will
Sorceries
3 Green Sun's Zenith
Land
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
7 Forest
2 Island
Sideboard
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Energy Field
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Seal of Primordium
2 Mind Harness
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Back to Basics
-----------------------------------
The changes that I've adopted into the main deck from Andrew C's deck is removal of the one-of's (Chrome Mox, Seal of Primordium, Mindbreak Trap) and one GSZ for 4 FoWs. With combo decks being a big bad wolf of this deck I figured that'd help where we could potentially stop a T1 (Charbelcher) through T3 kill (ANT, S&T, etc.) to give us more time for this combo to go off. Sometimes it’s just that little bit of disruption that can make or break a game is my thinking. Not sure, since you'd be removing an engine piece to pay for it, but that's why you generally have multiples of them. I'll tell you one thing...it definitely surprises your opponent the first time you counter something.
For the sideboard I switched it up quite a bit adding in the protection of Energy Field with a side of Wheel of Sun and Moon for recurring protection and the dredge MU. Once you’re set, you just bounce the Energy Field and combo away. I've also put in a couple of Mind Harnesses to help out with some of the RUG and Maverick MUs, since I would think they'd be pretty prevalent, but we may already be pretty square with them and it may just make their removal which wouldn't be that good against us normally more effective, not sure.... I also added in a couple Back to Basics. With all of the non-basics out there and this deck not running many at all that would be affecting by it (you can just return the land to your hand as well) I figure it could be a big hoser for various decks.
The main concern for me from the /W versions is removing Solitary Confinement, Sterling Groves, and the Leylines in the board, but with this version being faster it may not be so much of an issue.
-----------------------------------
U/G/W Enchantress
Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress
Enchantments
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Exploration
3 Elephant Grass
4 Wild Growth
1 Mirri's Guile
3 Solitary Confinement
3 Energy Field
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Seal of Removal
2 Words of Wind
3 Sterling Grove
Instants
4 Force of Will
1 Enlightened Tutor
Sorceries
2 Replenish
Land
7 Forest
1 Plains
2 Island
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
2 Serra's Sanctum
3 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
Sideboard
2 Mind Harness
2 Back to Basics
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
----------------------------------
I had this before I saw the U/G version (or remembered it). This deck developed from my initial G/W version (like most others here), because I've always enjoyed the WoWi condition instead of the WoW (it's a lot better against the mirror as well and I didn't play the red splash anyhow). I feel this gives a lot in versatility and inevitability, but of course, you get hit more with the inconsistent mana and getting Wastelanded. It focuses more on the old Exploration/Wild Growth/WoWi combination to bounce multiple permanents. Most everything is already explainable or I went over it in the above deck (yea, the stifle is a hold over...I really do enjoy that card).
I appreciate any constructive comments and good fortune to all drawing many cards. Thanks.
@Fornlorn Eogoist - Thanks for the feedback. After I posted I figured to go ahead and put up what I have. I figured that would be the main killer for FoW.
I dont like the blue version personally. It is really hard to play and can screw up so easy. It plays more out like a combo deck. I would only recommend you to play this at a big tournament if you have really mastered it.
Took my list to Jupiter Games again, switched a Nevermore into the SB for the Wheel of Sun and Moon.
Started 3-0-1 (90 Players, 7 rounds of swiss). Beat Red Deck Wins, RUG Delver, and Goblins, tied up with Junk (It was a Humility game. He got Batterskull in play and I missed the win a few times, so we tied.)
I lost to Maverick Round 5 (Which I think is at least 80% in our favor, I think I just maybe didn't mulligan as aggressively enough.) Round 6 was Nic-Fit Scapeshifter. I mis-SB'd a little, but Pernicious Deed got me. Round 7 was also Nic-Fit, which Pernicious Deed also beat me in.
I know that I at least need to SB Karmic Justice now, but I'm thinking that I might actually maindeck it over Choke now, since its also quite good against Maverick (and I never want to lose to that deck again.) Runed Halo might also be the MD cut - Thoughts?