[Deck] 12 Post

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Originally Posted by aedrew

One idea I want to test going forward is Sandwurm Convergence in the Ugin Slot. I like that you can Show and Tell it in and think it might help the Grixis Delver matchup because it let's us clog up the ground while also stopping air attacks and Grixis struggles to answer enchantments. It also sounds quite nice versus Reanimator, Sneak and Show, and Marit Lage decks. I have tested it once against Miracles. It won the game, but didn't particularly shine in this matchup. I did find the double green hard to get, making me cast it a few turns later than I could have cast an Ugin.

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During my hiatus, I would occasionally play UG Eureka/Show. I did a lot of testing with Sandwurm Convergence. I was testing it over Ugin because when everything happens at the same time, needles/revokers could come down and name Ugin. IThere are a couple things I recollect from my testing of SW Convergence.
-Against Grixis Delver they can not remove it, however... assuming they have DRS, they can still drain you out before you can wurm them. (This situation happened to me on mtgo.)
-Delver will have spell pierce/daze/FoW, so it's not trivial to get it into play.
-UB reanimator can still tidespout tyrant it to beat you. It's a solid lock against the rest of the deck.
-Sneak and Show can beat it if they have cunning wishes.
- I tended to board it in against any fair deck because the constant supply of 5/5s is hard for most decks to deal with.

I posted this on the 12Post FB group yesterday.

I ran a BUG version of Post for the first time at a local 16 person tournament today. This was the list:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Vesuva
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm

3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Cyclonic Rift
3 Show and Tell
4 Crop Rotation
1 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard:
4 Flusterstorm
1 Show and Tell
2 Moment's Peace
2 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

This list is very similar to one posted by user MechTactical on the Source and one played to a 2nd place finish (out of 63 people) by European player Steve Van Den Bulck, so I give them all the credit for pioneering the deck design. Entry to this particular tournament today was by invite only to cap off Arizona's year-long Legacy series, so I had a general idea about which decks I was likely to face. I finished a dismal 2-3, beating UWr Stoneblade and Turbo Depths and losing to Infect, Esper Delver and Aggro Loam. Despite the poor showing, the strategy felt solid and was a refreshing change from my UG No Show, No Titan brew I've been playing since Top was banned. It's definitely worth testing if you own the cards, and I will be working on developing it in the near future.

I won't go into details about each match, but I have some general insights from the tournament today.

- The most notable quality of this build that made it feel unique was the great color fixing. Between Deathrite Shamans and increased numbers of dual lands and fetchlands, there was much greater access to colors than any version of played before. If felt weird having three or four color sources in play and being able to do something as color intensive as Brainstorm into Abrupt Decay in a single turn. But it was easy to do here.

- Due to those manabase changes, the deck seemed to play more like a conventional deck rather than focusing as hard on ramping as most builds before it. After playing creatures and casting the black spells as disruption, I found myself several times hardcasting a Primeval Titan without already having a Cloudpost in play.

- The black additions were great. The Deathrites made all of the color fixing possible, as well as accelerating spells and serving as a maindeck form of graveyard hate. Toxic Deluge was the black card I was most excited about, as it finally provides a cheap sweeper for the deck, but Abrupt Decay ended up performing the best. It hit Delvers, Blood Moon (when floating mana) and Chalice of the Void, among other things. And all of this was as a maindeck card.

- I didn't see too many Snapcaster Mages over the course of the day, but I found them useful the couple of times that I did find one, re-using a Ponder and a Crop Rotation. The prospect of replaying a Show and Tell makes me really want to continue trying the card. More testing will hopefully determine whether it is a worthwhile inclusion.

Before Top was banned, I never strayed too far from a very general list. There would be slight tweaks in my maindeck disruption and sideboard slots, but typically the quantities of several of the cards would always be the same. Besides the addition of a third color in this build, there were several breaks from my usual 12Post deckbuilding philosophies. It felt like I may be losing my religion or something, but a lot of my fears of the deck construction were allayed after today.

- After playing my previous UG brew since Top was banned, I felt so happy to finally be casting Show and Tell and Primeval Titan again. I think a lot of my enjoyment of this deck was simply going back to these powerful cards that I always used to auto-include. Deathrite Shaman, Show and Tell and even Primeval Titan himself take the pressure off of needing a Cloudpost in play. Including Primeval Titan is definitely the direction I want to be heading from here on.

- Other than the two sideboard Pithing Needles, there were no artifacts included in the deck. This was a refreshing change, turning off most artifact hate I encountered. Some opponents even named Candelabra of Tawnos and Expedition Map with their own Needle. Even though I have always thought maindeck Needle was necessary, this version seemed to play fine with only the two sideboarded ones. As mentioned before, Deathrite, Show and Titan all lessen the dependency on Cloudpost. There is also the ability to replay a Crop Rotation via Snapcaster Mage. Also, Wasteland seems like it has been at an all-time low in the metagame, most likely due to the prevalence of Deathrite.

- I was skeptical about lists only running three copies of Deathrite Shaman (seems like a card you would want four of, especially in Post where opponents will direct their removal at it immediately), but three is definitely the correct number. Sometimes I would draw a second one that I did not want.

- People have consistently been dropping the number of Vesuva in their lists, but I have always valued the card to include at least three. At some points, another copy or two would have been helpful (especially when grabbing Glimmerposts off of Primeval Titan triggers), but I think just one is fine. Being less focused on ramp makes the Vesuva not as important. Also, the one copy of Thespian's Stage can be like another Vesuva, and it provided a ton of utility for me today.

- I have always liked old Kozilek over the new one, but in light of all the crazy changes happening with this deck, I decided to add the new Kozilek and try it out. Unfortunately, it never came up once today. In theory, his countering ability should handle a wide variety of threats, as there are more two and three converted mana cost cards in this build than other versions. Also, with the good permanent removal offered by the black cards, the Annihilator of the original Kozilek is probably not as necessarily.

This BUG list was truly a breath of fresh air for me with the 12Post archetype, and I will probably be focusing on tuning this list moving forward. The playstyle changes quite a bit, which makes it challenging and more rewarding for me; it's been a long time since I've actually have to think about the colors of the lands I fetch up. And we might as well abuse Deathrite Shaman before it gets banned, right?

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Originally Posted by into_play

I posted this on the 12Post FB group yesterday.

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There is a facebook group? Can someone please tell me what to search for to so I can join it? I tried looking but couldn't actively search it up.

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Originally Posted by into_play

...And we might as well abuse Deathrite Shaman before it gets banned, right?

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I mean it happened with treasure cruise! With the addition of black to the manabase, I'm shocked you aren't playing duress/thoughtseize/collective brutality to help out in the combo matchups.

Speaking of which, I've contemplated building a GB 12post deck for quite some time, as it gives access to hand disruption and creature removal, I never could come up with a list I liked.

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Originally Posted by into_play

I posted this on the 12Post FB group yesterday.

I ran a BUG version of Post for the first time at a local 16 person tournament today. This was the list:

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Great to see someone finally picked up the list. You reminded me to play BUG again. :laugh: I've been toying around with all sorts of weird sh##, but that list is probably one of the more competitive lists I've run since the top ban. I started testing again, and I maybe like diabolic edict. It may prove to be a great addition if not in the main at least in the side. It's easy to cast and gets rid of stuff like TNN plays well against sneak, reanimator, etc. It also pitches well to new kozilek at 2cmc. I prefer the new kozilek; I often tutor for him against combo decks (against storm he's my only Eldrazi post-board). So I tend to build a good mana curve for him in my lists (especially now that top is gone...).
In general, BUG-post runs differently then UG, and you'll probably need more practice to pilot this thing correctly. I've made a ton of misplays since I started testing again. in any event, I guess Steve proved that BUGpost is competitive...

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Originally Posted by maCHOOga

There is a facebook group? Can someone please tell me what to search for to so I can join it? I tried looking but couldn't actively search it up.

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Our Lady of Annihilation - 12 Post Discussion Group

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Originally Posted by into_play

I ran a BUG version of Post for the first time at a local 16 person tournament today. This was the list:

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You have beaten me to the punch on experimenting with BUG, so I have some questions:

1) I've been skeptical of Toxic Deluge because of the life cost - did you find that to be a problem?
2) What is your evaluation of Collective Brutality in a BUG build?
3) How helpful is the one-of Sylvan Library?

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Originally Posted by mykatdied

Our Lady of Annihilation - 12 Post Discussion Group

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How much worthwhile discussion goes on in the Facebook group that does not also happen here? I'm not on Facebook so I want to know what I'm missing.

Have people tried the following cards:

Mirage mirror - the utility is insane and it has the ability to give creatures pseudo haste and vigilance. I found that a few opponents find it extremely scary to face.

Amulet of vigor - I am running 3 as budget candelabras but they are so good that I am going to keep them and 1 candelabra. They are a 1 mana investment for (in 1 case) 10 mana off prime time to cast newlamog.

End bringer - it seems quite useful and I'm testing it out in my side, but haven't gotten it yet.

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Originally Posted by Valleysdai

Have people tried the following cards:

Mirage mirror - the utility is insane and it has the ability to give creatures pseudo haste and vigilance. I found that a few opponents find it extremely scary to face.

Amulet of vigor - I am running 3 as budget candelabras but they are so good that I am going to keep them and 1 candelabra. They are a 1 mana investment for (in 1 case) 10 mana off prime time to cast newlamog.

End bringer - it seems quite useful and I'm testing it out in my side, but haven't gotten it yet.

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I run 3 mirage mirrors along side 3 Krosan Wayfinder. Hear me out, last week I led with turn one Krosan Wayfinder, sac and put cloud post in play. Turn 2: play vesuva copying cloudpost, tap cloudpost and forest for 3 mana play mirror. Turn 3: play cloudpost. Tap one cloudpost for 3 mana. Activate mirror for 2 copying cloudpost. 1 mana floating. Tap the cloudpost, vesuva and mirror for 12 mana and ullamog exiling 2 lands. Follow up with a ancient stirrings found emrakul.

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Originally Posted by Prdgychild

I run 3 mirage mirrors along side 3 Krosan Wayfinder. Hear me out, last week I led with turn one Krosan Wayfinder, sac and put cloud post in play. Turn 2: play vesuva copying cloudpost, tap cloudpost and forest for 3 mana play mirror. Turn 3: play cloudpost. Tap one cloudpost for 3 mana. Activate mirror for 2 copying cloudpost. 1 mana floating. Tap the cloudpost, vesuva and mirror for 12 mana and ullamog exiling 2 lands. Follow up with a ancient stirrings found emrakul.

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It took a while but I found out you mean wayfarer haha.

It seems quite interesting and good at stopping lifeline.

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Originally Posted by Valleysdai

It took a while but I found out you mean wayfarer haha.

It seems quite interesting and good at stopping lifeline.

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of course he is not as good as deathrite shawman but he can be better sometimes and i play this deck for fun/competitive so i go for bigger over consistency

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Originally Posted by k_omega

How much worthwhile discussion goes on in the Facebook group that does not also happen here? I'm not on Facebook so I want to know what I'm missing.

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I would say that it is about the same amount in general. Recently this has been busier. The benefit of the group on facebook is that you get notifications. Tapatalk maybe does that, but I don't really like the UI... honestly I hate facebook too so I am not really sure what I am on about.

Hey guys, I made a discord server for anything related to decks playing the 12-post manabase, and that also includes this deck! (obviously!) Feel free to join and we can ask on the fly about deck choices, questionable keeps/plays, and any other terrible ideas we may have!

https://discord.gg/95wjxNf

For those that splash red, what's your thought on the new blood sun enchantment?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-conte...un-216x302.png

Hey so I'm on the Colorless Eldrazi Post deck and I've been crushing cockatrice and I just crushed FNM with this list
FNM: Grixis Delver 2-1
BUG Death's Shadow 2-1
Death and Taxes 2-0


4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
1 Thespian Stage
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
4 Glimmerpost
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Vesuva

1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Endbringer
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
3 Oblivion Sower
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

2 All Is Dust

1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon

2 Basalt Monolith
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
3 Trinisphere
3 Voltaic Key

4 Faerie Macabre
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Sorcerous Spyglass
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Warping Wail
2 Wurmcoil Engine


Only Changes I'm contemplating are Spatial Contortion for Sphere of Resistance. With 4 Chalice and 3 Trinisphere idk if I ever need sphere and more ways to kill revoker/teeg/delver seem great. Please let me know your thoughts, I've been testing immensely and really love this list.

Ground out 4 side events at GP Santa Clara with my slightly modified versions of my UG Post list from a few pages back.
Did not do very well, but thought I would share the experience.

Event 1 (1-2)
Round 1 v. ANT: Lose turn 2 game 1. Bring in Forces, Flusterstorms, Surgicals, Tabernacle, Mana Maze. I have Force, Blue card, Brainstorm. He turn 1 Git Probes. This may have been wrong, but I Brainstorm to hide force on top of my deck. He then wins, with discard to spare. Played a third match for practice and also lost, but came a lot closer as I had several turns to find something before he made 20 goblins.
Round 2 v. UW Helm Combo: He main decked Back to Basics, but I still won through it with EE and Ugin. I threw away game 2 after having the board locked down. I tapped out to deploy Primeval Titan instead of just holding up hard cast Force of Will while he had RiP on board an really nothing in hand (I had seen from a Mindslaver effect). Of course, he top decks Helm and wins on the spot. Game 3 he just raced me pretty fast with the helm combo and the shroud enchantment for protection. This match up actually seems pretty favorable, but I am not familiar with the deck and did not play well.
Round 3 v. Grixis Delver. Played against a player not that familiar with Legacy. Took game 1 with Titan chaining Glimmer posts after he spent the early turns just cantripping. Game 2, he has me struggling to survive with Delver and DRS, but I play a turn 3 Tabernacle and he speeds through right to draw without paying then realizes the error and scoops.

Event 2 (3-0)
Round 1 v. Lands: Basically just crush in two games with multiple Pithing Needles and Perilous Voyage to bounce Lage. He tries to survive with Glacial Chasm but can't hold out forever against Titan or Sandwurm Convergence.
Round 2 v. MUD: We have some fun when we realize that the Locus lands count all Locusi in play. I get to hard cast Big Emrakul with help from his posts and take game 1. Game 2, I show and tell in a Big Emrakul to his Blightsteel Colossus. The resulting attack shrinks Emrakul to a 4/4, but he can't come back from the annihilator triggers.
Round 3 v. Lands: Similar to Round 1. In game 2, I have Sandwurm Convergence but he us using Loam and Mana Bond to recur Ghost Quarter and Glacial Chasm each turn. However, I am able to Perilous Voyage the Mana Bond EOT and he scoops because he thinks he does not get the trigger and cannot put his Chasm into play (against like 5 Wurms at this point). Later, a judge told us that Mana Bond is errated to trigger at begining of end step, not "discard", and he would still get the trigger. I still think I would have taken the game though, since he would need to discard Mana Bond and could not longer loop.

Event 3 (1-2)
Round 1 v. 4c Loam: Game 1 I S&T a turn 4 Titan, he puts in a Knight. Seems okay, but then he untaps and plays Liliana of the Veil, kills Titan and starts tutoring Wastelands. Game 2, multiple Wastelands and I don't find needle. Beat pretty handily.
Round 2 v. Eldrazi Stompy: Don't remember much here but took it in 2 games with my slightly bigger guys, eventually casting Ulamog twice in a turn in game 2 to wipe his permanents and get the flawless victory.
Round 3 v. ANT: we split but played it out for practice. I lost both games, but actually saw a failure rate where I didn't die until turn 5 or 6 game 1.

Event 4 (1-2)
Round 1 v. Eldrazi Stompy: Game 1 I feel pretty good to S&T a turn 3 Little Emrakul, but he just untaps and plays Karakas. Then I can't survive the TKS hand disruption and beat down. Game 2, a string of multiple Wastelands plus TKS end it for me.
Round 2 v. Grixis Delver: I take game 1 off of Titan and chained Glimmerposts. Game 2 I buy a lot of time with Tabernacle and Elephant Grass, but this just gives him time to build a great hand and I can never resolve my threats. Game 3 goes similar. I think I mistakenly use my counter magic to stop some of his threats when I should use it more to force my threats through his counter magic. In retrospect, it is likely that I can win if any of my threats get on the board so he did whatever he could to stop that from happening.
Round 3 v. Czech Pile: Game 1, all the time in the world to cast the big guys and take it. Game 2, more of the same. I resolve a Sandwurm Convergence and he cantrips and card draws for days, but just can't deal with it. This one card won me the game despite him drawing like over half his deck and me pretty much not resolving any other relevant spells.


ANT seems unwinnable, so any advice for this matchup for UG lists? I am also now pretty set on 4 Pithing Needles as it made so much difference against Wasteland decks. Again, Grixis Delver feels close and I think there are not really any killer cards to bring in, but more of a need to adapt my playstyle and learn the ins and outs of the matchup.

Sidenote: I saw Tony Murata on BUG Post, doing quite well in the main event. Congrats.

Great finish for Tony and his team!

Would really love to read a report about his way in the legacy section of the GP.

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Originally Posted by MasterHerC

Great finish for Tony and his team!

Would really love to read a report about his way in the legacy section of the GP.

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Congrats, but where the f is his decklist??!! :really: are they so slow at putting up this thing or am i just bad at surfing the net?? :mad:

They "only" posted the Top8 lists.

Hey guys!

Haven't been playing MTG lately since joining the Army but I've slowly gotten back into it and I used to be an avid player of Gr Cloudpost. Here's my list for critique:

Lands: 28
3x Wooded Foothills
2x Vesuva
1x Thespian's Stage
3x Taiga
4x Forest
1x Karakas
4x Glimmerpost
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Dark Depths
4x Cloudpost
2x Cavern of Souls (might be dropping to 1x)
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Dryad Arbor

Creatures: 10
1x Magus of the Candelabra (just a tech I'm trying with GSZ)
1x Thought-Knot Seer
1x Mina and Denn, Wildborn
4x Primeval Titan (MVP)
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells: 23
3x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Kozilek's Return
3x Warping Wail
2x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Ancient Stirrings
4x Crop Rotation
2x Expedition Map
3x Pithing Needle
1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (2x more are in the SB)

The side is a WIP so I won't share it, but what do you guys think of this? As of now it has game vs a bit of the field while struggling against Combo, which is why I run Thorn main.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy

Hey guys!

Haven't been playing MTG lately since joining the Army but I've slowly gotten back into it and I used to be an avid player of Gr Cloudpost. Here's my list for critique:

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Personally I never played gr. Maybe you can try rock lee’s punishing fire / inferno titan build, if you’re not happy with your list?

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Originally Posted by MechTactical

Personally I never played gr. Maybe you can try rock lee’s punishing fire / inferno titan build, if you’re not happy with your list?

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No no, I am happy with my list, just wondering what you guys thought of it. Where do you think it could improve?

Also, could you link me Rock Lee's list? I would be curious to see what it looks like.

Had an fnm tournament yesterday and took UG post. I did quite poor 1-3, it was a mixture of bad hands (I'm not good at mulligan decisions haha) and unfortunate draws.

R1 infect 0-2
G1 he goes all in and I crop for a maze to stop it. The he proceeds to build as my draws splutter.

G2 he slowly ticks up and when I try to maze he gives hexproof and pumps

R2 mono black 0-2

The deck is all about discard and value creatures like nighthawk

G1 he hymns me a few times and I lose needed lands and get poked to death by 2/Xs

G2 I get chasm and have to sacrifice it on my last turn where I hope to draw a glimmer post for life gain, I get and play dark depths, I see a possible out and during his attack step I mirage mirror as a copy of dark depths but he wastelands in response to the trigger.

R3 miracles

G1 we both build up our resources, I mapped for tabernacle a couple turns before they miracle entreat for 4 with a monastery mentor and jtms onboard, by that time I had enough to play tabernacle and emrakul the promised end. They counter the emrakul but I take their turn and sax all their guys, then give them only lands. NeXT turn newlamog and scoop.

G2 - they got an early back to basics and I had an amulet of vigor in play (thankfully) so I built up and staged/vesuva'd to get more basics while getting glimmer posts to prevent and in the end remove all the poke damage. In turns I cast prime time and they scooped.

R4 tin fins

G1 they can't find their combo and I get infinite turns.

G2 & 3 I try to stop them but they combo and win.

Overall I have made a list if tests to try out (quite spicy choices) and cut either cards that were bad or that had enough redundancy/ lowers me keeping bad hands.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Froggy

No no, I am happy with my list, just wondering what you guys thought of it. Where do you think it could improve?

Also, could you link me Rock Lee's list? I would be curious to see what it looks like.

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Sorry it was actually bGR http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1022145 although punishing fire / inferno seem like excellent inclusions for a list running red.

I changed up my list a bit and have been having roughly 70%W/30%L with the deck. Match ups I've been struggling with are: Grixis Delver and Combo. The rest of the meta is fair game I'd say. Late game with this deck is completely nuts.

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Originally Posted by Valleysdai

For those that splash red, what's your thought on the new blood sun enchantment?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-conte...un-216x302.png

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It's a mixed bag.

Pros:
It stops Wasteland
Clouldpost comes into play untapped and still taps for a lot of mana.

Cons:
Kills OUR utility Lands, including Glimmerpost's trigger, Vesuva, and Eye of Ugin.

It's probably worth testing, but I suspect a deck utilizing it and Cloudpost would look a lot different than a standard control build.

I posted this on the 12Post FB group a few days ago, which is my typical first place I go to post news about the deck.

Even though it's been two weeks since GP Santa Clara, it's still important for me to share the results from my Legacy portion of the team event. My teammates, Bryan Rockenbach and Sam Wolloch, are serious grinders of all Magic tournament formats and played Temur Energy in Standard and Storm in Modern, respectively. Even though they both play Legacy frequently, they sought my talents for the eternal format, which I play exclusively. Kudos to both of those guys for not only playing a solid 14 rounds of Magic, but allowing and even supporting my choice of deck, a relatively untested BUG version of 12Post. This is the list that I took to the event:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Vesuva
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm

3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Cyclonic Rift
3 Show and Tell
4 Crop Rotation
1 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Expedition Map

Sideboard:
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm
1 Show and Tell
2 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Despite only playing the list in a small local tournament and a few Legacy leagues online beforehand, I was still able to achieve a 9-5 personal record at the GP, contributing to a team record of 10-4 and a 15th place finish. My experience with the 12Post archetype in general, combined with the new removal effects provided by the black splash, reassured me of the strategy's power in a post-Top world. It also gave me a breath of fresh air for the archetype; the deck plays a little different than Post builds of old and presents a welcome challenge for me going forward.

Here's a list of my fourteen matchups, my personal result, and the team's result for that round:

Day 1
Round 1 - Burn (Won, Team Won)
Round 2 - Infect (Lost, Team Won)
Round 3 - RUG Delver (Lost, Team Won)
Round 4 - UW RIP/Helm Combo (Won, Team Won)
Round 5 - Sneak and Show (Lost, Team Won)
Round 6 - Grixis Delver (Won, Team Won)
Round 7 - BUG Delver (Won, Team Won)
Round 8 - Sneak and Show (Lost, Team Lost)

Day 2
Round 9 - Czech Pile (Won, Team Won)
Round 10 - 4C (no R) Stoneblade (Won, Team Lost)
Round 11 - Sneak and Show (Lost, Team Lost)
Round 12 - Turbo Depths (Won, Team Won)
Round 13 - RG Lands (this was Jarvis Yu) (Won, Team Won)
Round 14 - Grixis Delver (Won, Team Lost)

As you can see, I was carried on the first day by my teammates, but was able to redeem myself and play much better for the team on the second. There's plenty of things for me to think about regarding the list in the future, but three critical issues came to mind right after the tournament:

1) The build's weakness to Sneak and Show. Sneak and Show has always been a rough matchup for 12Post, but this version in particular is especially cold to it. I intend to play a Post build at large GP/SCG Legacy tournaments, and Sneak and Show will most definitely be prevalent, especially in he hands of pros at GP's. I'm not yet sure if I can simply swap some sideboard cards, or if an entire change in philosophy or playstyle is necessary. But I lost all three of my matches against the deck and definitely need to change something.

2) Pithing Needles should be maindeck. Maindecking at least three Needles was something I always did with all previous 12Post versions. After seeing the original BUG list that I based mine around, I was skeptical of only two copies of Needle in the board. Since I was already going out on such a limb trying this new build, I decided to stick with most of the original card choices and only run the two sideboard Needles. In hindsight, I should have went with my conscience on this. Needle has always been a great safety blanket against the most prevalent hate card, Wasteland. Even having them in matchups where you don't need it (and you can usually find at least something to name with it) still does not outweigh the relief of having one when you do need it. Also, Needle is at its best during game one, when the opponent is unlikely to have much artifact removal for it. Lastly, the aforementioned Sneak and Show matchup is at least helped a bit by including Needle. During the first game, they cannot remove a resolved Needle. If I can see that they are on Sneak and Show soon enough and can land a Needle, then they are forced to go the more dangerous Show and Tell route to victory.

3) Uncertainty over Deathrite Shaman inclusion. Whenever I was able to use a Deathrite for mana-making unhindered, he was incredible. More often than not, however, there was some sort of limitation to using him. Sometimes he would eat an otherwise dead removal spell (Lightning Bolt would be okay, preserving my life total a bit, but giving Fatal Push a target felt so bad). But his most typical drawback would be being negated by an opposing Deathrite. Usually a bright opponent would realize that I would need him to make mana, and would always keep their Deathrite up to cut me off a mana. Perhaps just doing the same to the opponent makes Deathrite worthwhile for me? Though having him did have its advantages. As an extra body, there were times where he would prevent Liliana of the Veil from being an out against an otherwise single big creature. He can even be a blocker against an unflipped Delver or a Glistener Elf. The verdict is still out on whether Deathrite Shaman should be included at all.

Again, I apologize for responding so late about the Grand Prix, but better late than never I guess. I will go back and answer the questions over this build that I neglected a month ago. This tournament performance, while not my best, was still successful and a ton of fun, and I look forward to fine-tuning the BUG list even more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by k_omega

You have beaten me to the punch on experimenting with BUG, so I have some questions:

1) I've been skeptical of Toxic Deluge because of the life cost - did you find that to be a problem?
2) What is your evaluation of Collective Brutality in a BUG build?
3) How helpful is the one-of Sylvan Library?


How much worthwhile discussion goes on in the Facebook group that does not also happen here? I'm not on Facebook so I want to know what I'm missing.

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So sorry that this is over a month later, but at least I have more data to provide in that time.

1) I was concerned about the life loss of Toxic Deluge at first as well, but in practice, the amount of life you pay is well worth it. I typically find myself casting it for 2 life, to remove everything on a Grixis Delver board besides Angler. Occasionally I'll end up paying 3, in order to wipe Leovold and company. Again, a manageable amount. Deluge is similar to Glacial Chasm in that you need to plan accordingly when choosing to use it, specifically not playing it too late. Anytime you can afford to risk the life loss, Deluge has proven to be incredible, and I wouldn't be surprised to see it show up more frequently in control builds that can fit it in (not just 12Post). It's an extremely versatile creature removal spell that really is only limited by the cost of life. I think only in a matchup like Eldrazi Stompy, where opponents are actually casting larger midrange creatures would the life loss be too much.

2) I have not tried Collective Brutality yet, but it seems worthy of testing due to its versatility. I would probably use the Duress and Disfigure modes together if I could afford to pitch another card. The card might be in competition for spots with Thoughtseize, which others have recommended that I try with a black splash.

3) The one-of Sylvan Library was basically a replacement for the third Ponder. There are several reasons and situations that I prefer Ponder over Library: it is a better topdeck late in the game when you want action right away, it ups the blue count for Force of Will, and it can be flashbacked via Snapcaster. Library is a decent replacement for Top once it gets in play, but I hate the idea of including more than one and possibly drawing a second one within the course of the game. I know a lot of people still include multiple Libraries (in other decks as well) despite being bad in multiples, so maybe I should reconsider running more. The times Library did show up and was not countered or destroyed, it was excellent.

I have noticed that the information on the FB group is comparable to what you find on here. Different information, but comparable in usefulness. It's worth making an account if you want to receive max information on this build we all love.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maCHOOga

I mean it happened with treasure cruise! With the addition of black to the manabase, I'm shocked you aren't playing duress/thoughtseize/collective brutality to help out in the combo matchups.

Speaking of which, I've contemplated building a GB 12post deck for quite some time, as it gives access to hand disruption and creature removal, I never could come up with a list I liked.

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Thank you for the suggestion. I think some discard spells would make use of the inclusion of black, more than just the board control it provides in my current list. As far as combo hate, I have always found discard to be subpar to counterspells, however (in all flavors of decks).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by into_play

The build's weakness to Sneak and Show. Sneak and Show has always been a rough matchup for 12Post, but this version in particular is especially cold to it. I intend to play a Post build at large GP/SCG Legacy tournaments, and Sneak and Show will most definitely be prevalent, especially in he hands of pros at GP's. I'm not yet sure if I can simply swap some sideboard cards, or if an entire change in philosophy or playstyle is necessary. But I lost all three of my matches against the deck and definitely need to change something.

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I like your build and congrats at the GP. I'll be heading to GP London (EDIT: it is my first GP) at the weekend and I'm aiming to run the UG version with a couple of interesting alterations that could actually help in various match ups (S&T included).

I did some testing against miracles and dragon stomp. The results were extremely promising and I managed to get one of the best case scenarios to occur.

@into_play

Thanks for your feedback. I was getting nervous since it took soo long. :laugh: Congrats once more on the finish.

1) The build's weakness to Sneak and Show.
The list is weak to red in general in my experience. That's probably why Steve included 2x BEB, and I've been happy running two copies in the board. Though, i guess we could run more red hate. Maybe go for beb over FOW?

2) Pithing Needles should be main deck.
I would tend to disagree on this issue. The deck space is so limited I don't see what I could cut to incorporate three needles. Currently, I'm happy with two in the board. However, I do agree that needle is a great card for the deck.

3) Uncertainty over Deathrite Shaman inclusion.
Because we often use shaman exclusively as a mana producer (we don't need to drain our opponents or gain life, though it's sometimes handy), I've started to test a build with Birds of paradise and Sylvan Caryatid. Currently, i still can't say if I would drop shaman, but it may be the way to go forward. The combined mana producing/fixing power of those two helps speed out those titans and fight moon/magus/B2B. Correction: Forgot to mention that Shaman does offer GY hate against many decks so that's another plus for him over birds/caryatid.

1) I was concerned about the life loss of Toxic Deluge
Toxic deluge is the linchpin of BUG post and probably the best black card we can run. I tried to run more than two main board, but it didn't feel right on the mana curve. I've beaten Eldrazi stompy with it as well. I don't see a problem paying 5 or even more life in some situations. We can quickly recover when titan goes online.

2) I have not tried Collective Brutality
I've tested with brutality but didn't like it. We often don't have a card to pitch (same goes for fow), and the one for one removal just doesn't seem to do enough on the curve at 2cmc. Additionally, it discards only sorceries and instants, so that's another weakness of the card. I don't like discard for our deck in general. Though Steve did include two thoughtseize in the latest build, I don't use it, since we have enough ways of fighting combo, against which discard would be used in my modest opinion. Though I may have been misboarding it and I should board it in against other decks as well?

3) The one-of Sylvan Library
I am still not sure whether to use one or two. The card is so powerful that I think two is the right number. If nothing else every opponent forces it if he can, so it's a good counter magnet to clear the way forward. Currently, i'm running two.

P.s. I also tested night's whisper as a one-off. It got me out of many ugly top deck situations. What are your thought's about this card?
P.p.s. I tried to include Baleful Strix in my BUG FoW attempts. How do you feel about running this bird?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by into_play

3) The one-of Sylvan Library was basically a replacement for the third Ponder. There are several reasons and situations that I prefer Ponder over Library: it is a better topdeck late in the game when you want action right away, it ups the blue count for Force of Will, and it can be flashbacked via Snapcaster. Library is a decent replacement for Top once it gets in play, but I hate the idea of including more than one and possibly drawing a second one within the course of the game. I know a lot of people still include multiple Libraries (in other decks as well) despite being bad in multiples, so maybe I should reconsider running more. The times Library did show up and was not countered or destroyed, it was excellent.

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I think 1 copy of Library is best. Assuming it stays in play, the card selection over multiple turns is worth more than a one-shot cantrip in my experience. After my last post I have also decided to never run more than one though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MechTactical

@into_play

Thanks for your feedback. I was getting nervous since it took soo long. :laugh: Congrats once more on the finish.

1) The build's weakness to Sneak and Show.
The list is weak to red in general in my experience. That's probably why Steve included 2x BEB, and I've been happy running two copies in the board. Though, i guess we could run more red hate. Maybe go for beb over FOW?

2) Pithing Needles should be main deck.
I would tend to disagree on this issue. The deck space is so limited I don't see what I could cut to incorporate three needles. Currently, I'm happy with two in the board. However, I do agree that needle is a great card for the deck.

[...]

P.s. I also tested night's whisper as a one-off. It got me out of many ugly top deck situations. What are your thought's about this card?
P.p.s. I tried to include Baleful Strix in my BUG FoW attempts. How do you feel about running this bird?

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1) I had one BEB in my sideboard when I experimented with Cgu and U/G builds and was very impressed by it.
2) Some brief testing shows that -2 Snapcaster and +2 Needle from into_play's list seems to work well. Snapcaster was too taxing on the colored mana anyway when I played it.
Night's Whisper) I would play it if I were playing straight BG, but if I had access to U I think more Ponders would be better.
Baleful Strix) Depends entirely on how often it dies to a removal spell, but I think it could work.

I feel like I am missing something with Glacial Chasm. Outside of a few matchups like Burn or Infect, I find that preventing damage for a turn or two is just counterbalanced by the loss of two mana-producing lands and opening hands with it often feel like mulligans. Can those with experience offer some tips and tricks of how to make the best use of this card?

Results from first day of side events (at my first gp) with my spicy brew, the decklist is available if wanted.

Double up event - used a different deck went 1-1-1, tested post against BR reanimator for the friendly games after IDing - seems like a very favoured match up.

Interim - traded most of my cards to almost finish the deck (4 cards left that I can borrow).

Regular legacy side event - 2-0-1

R1 - Czech pile 2-1

Game 1 - I have what appears to be a good turn 4 win until hymn hits cards that slow me down. I play several threats which get dealt with but marit lage gets there.

Sb - + 2 noxious revival + 2 warping wail - 2 intuition - glacial chasm -amulet

G2 - he gets discard spell to slow my hand down enough that a true name gets there. I was 1 turn away from winning.

Sb - intuitions back in - maze - amulet

Game 3 : he gets strix with a jitte beating face. As the beating commences I get to 6 lands, 1 of which is a cavern on giant (jitte is on 6 counters) and cast prime time. I work out I can survive 1 more turn so get 2 cloud post to be at 10 mana. He promptly removes the counters to kill prime time, next turn I cast newlamog which exiles jitte (he removed a counter to kill strix and gain life in response to the target of strix and jitte). Newlamog gets countered. Next turn new kozilek, draw 6 and get enough mana for old emrakul

R2 - Czech pile 2-1

Game 1 - same as R1 Game 1

Sb - +2 noxious revival +2 warping wail - glacial chasm -2 amulet - maze

Game 2 - same as R1 game 2 except with leovold not True name.

Sb - none

Game 3 - he answers my early game threats, and has me locked down with jace, I track my card type in graveyard for new emrakul and as jace gets to 13 loyalty I top deck trop (he forgot about the discount). He snapcaster targeting red elemental blast to destroy his jace. I cast his pithing needle naming jace. He has force in hand but didn't pitch snappy to it.

R3 - ID burn (friendlies went 2-0)

Game 1 I get glacial chasm from prime time and the rest was straight forward

Game 2 - we both kept bad hands, in the end he had 8 creatures (2 guides, 2 swiftspears and 4 eidolon) and I had 4 max of iths (1 maze, 2 vesuva, 1 stage) and 6 other lands and candelabra.

Overall I'm really surprised and amazed at how the deck performed and the spicy cards won me a lot of games.

I currently have 3 stifle side board but I'm thinking of only having 1 and 1 warping wail.

Here's a bant list I've started to work on after seeing Mr. Enero's list (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=18276&d=313308&f=LE). I've made a few changes and the list still needs work.
I kind of miss the utility lands now and then (bojuka, glacial), but i feel that without crop - snt Titan + knight are too slow to get the most out of them. By t3 you can easily have an ooze oozing on their GY about the same time you can get bojuka on the ground in this crop-less build. terminus + mirri is proving a fantastic combination for a bant post build. If I'm not setting up terminus, i'm setting up SnT titan or GSZ - hate or just plain old cloudpost drops. The gsz - ramp is just enough for this thing to be fast and not get mana screwed. Any thoughts?

1 [RAV:153] Birds of Paradise
1 [ONS:316] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN:220] Misty Rainforest
4 [MMQ:61] Brainstorm
1 [FUT:174] Dryad Arbor
4 [TMP:130] Mirri's Guile
2 [ZEN:249] Forest
1 [MMA:178] Knight of the Reliquary
3 [USG:96] Show and Tell
1 [MM3:54] Temporal Mastery
4 [FNMP:120] Cloudpost
1 [LEG:248] Karakas
2 [3ED:303] Tropical Island
1 [TSP:281] Vesuva
1 [LRW:248] Gaddock Teeg
1 [THS:180] Sylvan Caryatid
4 [EMA:169] Green Sun's Zenith
1 [2ED:293] Savannah
2 [ONS:328] Windswept Heath
1 [MM3:134] Scavenging Ooze
1 [ROE:4] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [WWK:136] Eye of Ugin
1 [ZEN:233] Plains
4 [M12:188] Primeval Titan
2 [EMA:187] Sylvan Library
1 [ZEN:234] Island
4 [MM3:26] Terminus
1 [BFZ:15] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [SOM:227] Glimmerpost
1 [LEA:294] Tundra

SB: 1 [ALA:10] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [MM2:99] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [MGDC:39] Reclamation Sage
SB: 2 [ME2:37] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 [CMD:46] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [EMN:13] Blessed Alliance
SB: 1 [ARB:8] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [RTR:18] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [DKA:24] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 [TSP:202] Krosan Grip

Alright after much needed tinkering and testing here is my new Gr Cloudpost deck!

Lands: 25
4x Cloudpost
4x Glimmerpost
5x Forest
3x Taiga
3x Wooded Foothills
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Karakas
1x Vesuva

Creatures: 8
4x Primeval Titan
2x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1x Azusa, Lost but Seeking

Others: 27
4x Crop Rotation
4x Sylvan Library
3x Warping Wail
3x Pithing Needle
3x Ancient Stirrings
3x Kozilek's Return
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Candelabra of Tawnos
1x Sorcerous Spyglass

SB: 15
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Choke
3x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Krosan Grip
1x Reclamation Sage

I'm really happy with this list but I've been wanting to find room for a Glacial Chasm.

Any thoughts?

What are the cards you use against fast combo decks (such as storm)?

I have 1 stifle and 1 flusterstorm and am currently trying notion thief and if I can get any some root maze (I run amulet of vigor so it would be quite 1 sided in my favour)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valleysdai

What are the cards you use against fast combo decks (such as storm)?

I have 1 stifle and 1 flusterstorm and am currently trying notion thief and if I can get any some root maze (I run amulet of vigor so it would be quite 1 sided in my favour)

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I try to land an early Thorn and try to lock them out from killing me, if possible

I took a very slight variant (-2 Snapcaster, +2 Needle and a different SB) of into_play's BUG list to FNM today and due to horrible matchups went 1-2, but I think the deck has some potential. I played:

4 Cloudpost, Glimmerpost
1 Vesuva, Thespian's Stage
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea, Bayou, Island, Forest
1 Eye of Ugin, Karakas, Cavern of Souls, Bojuka Bog, Glacial Chasm

3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Cyclonic Rift
3 Show and Tell
4 Crop Rotation
1 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Pithing Needle
1 Expedition Map

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Trinisphere
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Pithing Needle
1 Abrupt Decay
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Matchups were BR Reanimator (1-2), Mono-Red Blood Moon/Blood Sun/Magus of the Moon with rituals into Deus of Calamity (1-2), and BUG Leovold (2-1).

Observations:

1. The BR Reanimator matchup is terrible. I won game 2 on the back of an early Crop Rotation -> Karakas while he failed to find an Entomb. Toxic Deluge saved me from death by Ashen Rider, but the real all-star is Sylvan Library which let me hide Ulamog from discard while digging for lands. Sideboarding is awkward because I don't want creatures that can get discarded and reanimated, but that leaves only Emrakul. I did not see a Deathrite or a Surgical during the match, so the matchup might be better than it seemed at the time.
2. Deathrite Shaman is wonderful. Being a second colored source under Moon effects was crucial and against BUG it negated the mana loss from being Wastelanded, in particular providing the second green for a T4 Titan.
3. New Kozilek was underwhelming. While the prospect of drawing more cards and countering relevant spells is enticing, it does very little to improve a board where you are already substantially behind. At every time where I could have cast New Kozilek, the old version would have drawn the same number of cards and affected the board less. New Kozilek makes more sense in C/g builds that often end up with no cards in hand.

Changes:
No changes for the time being, but I am considering trying Flusterstorms in place of the sideboard spheres which I have always played. Flusterstorm players: why do you like that card and in what matchups do you bring it in?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by k_omega

Flusterstorm players: why do you like that card and in what matchups do you bring it in?

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I have been liking Flusterstorm more and more, going from 3 to 4 in the board.
It is good against combo like Reanimator and ANT. Against Reanimator, you can keep up U turn 1 and counter a key spell through a Canceller tax with the copy.
I bring them in versus Burn and fair decks with discard. It's a good way to stop Hymn and K Command.

I've been trying GB now and as of yet the results have been good. Will post later with more info.