[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

@Fossil4182
On Gitaxian Probe, I believe it has potential value to be abused in this archetype if used at the perfect time. The card is competing with Preordains/Thoughtseizes in most lists. I agree that any other cantrip is preferable to Gitaxian Probe, that is, when you are in the process of sculpting a hand and have a blue source. The same can be said about Preordains though. There will likely be scenarios where a cantrip (or discard) will be less preferable and just end up being a dead card that is discarded or used as Chrome Mox fodder.

The fact is the card gives intel (when used as pseudo-protection) and speed (extra draw=Time Walk) and can be used to set up LED/AdN tricks. I cannot completely throw away those facts as irrelevant when going against another fast combo, or against hymn/trini/hate bear decks.

My approach with the list was to pick up speed that is at par with Belcher or better than TES. Depending on the approach, 8 discard spells can have value too particularly in fighting disruption, the mirror, or penetrating through a counter wall. But discard spells can end up being dead cards themselves on occasions where you are already in a good position to win. I think Gitaxian Probe fills up 2 roles in this deck and that no other card can do.

Souped-up Tendrils

2 Ad Nauseam

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Preordain
3 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor

3 Duress
3 Pact of Negation

2 Tendrils of Agony

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

2 City of Traitors
1 Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

This is the list I'm playing at the moment. Not missing IGG at all. It certainly feels faster than traditional UB with less fizzling of Ad Nauseams at 0 mana due to the 3 Moxen. I noticed I was actually going less for the Infernal > LED route because I was drawing into Ad Nauseam more often and that makes me feel comfortable with keeping the Pacts. The Pacts were great against Chants/Silences too, which came up during testing. Feel free to comment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau

I can vouch for that 4c fetchland manabase's viability (cutting one Swamp for a total of fourteen lands). Also, I can't say I've come to the same conclusion on PiF, but I'd love to be enlightened.

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Ok, where to start. I'll try to get the points as good as possible together. Everything is explained with the following list in mind:

Flaming ANT

4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Swamp
1x Island
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Badlands

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Brainstorm
1x Ad Nauseam

3x Preordain
4x Ponder
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Burning Wish
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
1x Past in Flames
1x Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard:
4x Dark Confidant

2x Krosan Grip
1x Rebuild
1x Chain of Vapor

1x Reverent Silence
1x Meltdown
1x Eye of Nowhere
1x Deathmark
1x Past in Flames
1x Grapeshot
1x Tendrils of Agony


First, Counterspell isn't played that much (well, in Landstill), which leaves a normal countersuite of Force of Will and Daze, most of the time accompanied by Spell Snare and Stifle.
The two greatest advantages of PiF are immunity to Spell Snare, (I'll leave out Daze because you should be able to get 6+ mana easily) and the possibility to be flashbacked. That leads to a pretty simple conclusion: If your opponent wants to counter PiF for good, he has to invest four cards and two life. For only one of your cards. That's pretty damn good.
Second, your Burning Wish become must counters. If your opponent doesn't counter BW, point one is in action. Pre PiF, letting a BW through was not that big of a problem. The possibilities to win were (in a non-combo turn) small, leaving you with a card that was even known by the opponent, so he could react accordingly (i.e. -> it's a Tendrils, I'll better not counter anything, he wants to storm me out with my help). With PiF.. yes, he knows what it is, but he can't do a thing against it, so he has to counter the Wish.
Third, it's an absolute gamechanger. Let's say we are at the worst possible moment. You tried to go off two times already and your opponent had the counter everytime. Now you are at one, he has a Goyf and two cards, known as Stifle and Spell Snare. Due to the late gamestate you have a lot of lands in play. In your last possible turn, you draw PiF. Now two things happen.
1. You start grinning so hard that your opponent wants to punch you.
2. You win the game. (Not the game, hi btw ;))
I know that this is a pretty extreme example of a game, but it does happen. You go off the first time with half your hand, your opponent counters with his only counter, then topdecks the next one for your planned win next turn.
PiF from the top basicly reads like this: So, I invest four mana. You better have a Force. Even if you do, you better have another one. No? Ok, then I'll replay every spell in my graveyard. That includes Duress (you can ignore Stifle up to the point where PiF resolves, same with Spell Snare), several rituals and/or cantrips for even more goodies.
What I'm trying to say is: We get a card that ignores every counterspell except Force of Will (and Counterspell obv) and even our life total, with the greatest downside being that our opponents board graveyardhate. Which is, frankly said, just bad.
And in exchange? We don't lose anything except for four damage if we want to win via Ad Nauseam.
Almost forgot, discard? Yeah, that's effective now.

So, in conclusion, this deck now has three routes to victory, each having it's up- and downsides.

1. Via Tutorchain:
Up: Ignores life total, gets better if your opponents life is lower than 20, can calculate some counters for storm.
Down: Easily countered via Snare, most of the time you have to sacrifice your hand to get hellbent, requires at least five cards in your hand, the more life your opponent has, the worse it gets, can be difficult to set up.

2. Via Ad Nauseam:
Up: Instantspeed, one card combo, can only be countered by Force of Will (and Counterspell), ignores opponents life total almost every time, can remove Snare and Stifle after casting.
Down: May fizzle even with 20 life, so it's somewhat random, gets worse with every point of life you lose, cards like Lightning Bolt / Fire//Ice have to be calculated if your opponent is in red.

3. Via Past in Flames:
Up: Gets better the longer the game drags on, one card combo, can only be countered by Force of Will (and Counterspell), ignores opponents life total almost every time, needs to be countered two times, ignores your life total, can remove Snare and Stifle after casting, can be tutored via Burning Wish, immune to discard, may win games with a desastrous gamestate.
Down: Requires at least two rituals in your hand or graveyard (depending on the number of LEDs/lands maybe less), graveyardhate.

As you see, PiF provides the most upsides with the least downsides.

So, I hope I didn't forget anything. I strongly advice you to test this card, it is as good as it reads (maybe better).
If there are questions, please feel free to ask.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mort-

Ok, where to start. I'll try to get the points as good as possible together. Everything is explained with the following list in mind:

Flaming ANT

4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Swamp
1x Island
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Badlands

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Brainstorm
1x Ad Nauseam

3x Preordain
4x Ponder
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Burning Wish
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
1x Past in Flames
1x Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard:
4x Dark Confidant

2x Krosan Grip
1x Rebuild
1x Chain of Vapor

1x Reverent Silence
1x Meltdown
1x Eye of Nowhere
1x Deathmark
1x Past in Flames
1x Grapeshot
1x Tendrils of Agony


First, Counterspell isn't played that much (well, in Landstill), which leaves a normal countersuite of Force of Will and Daze, most of the time accompanied by Spell Snare and Stifle.
The two greatest advantages of PiF are immunity to Spell Snare, (I'll leave out Daze because you should be able to get 6+ mana easily) and the possibility to be flashbacked. That leads to a pretty simple conclusion: If your opponent wants to counter PiF for good, he has to invest four cards and two life. For only one of your cards. That's pretty damn good.
Second, your Burning Wish become must counters. If your opponent doesn't counter BW, point one is in action. Pre PiF, letting a BW through was not that big of a problem. The possibilities to win were (in a non-combo turn) small, leaving you with a card that was even known by the opponent, so he could react accordingly (i.e. -> it's a Tendrils, I'll better not counter anything, he wants to storm me out with my help). With PiF.. yes, he knows what it is, but he can't do a thing against it, so he has to counter the Wish.
Third, it's an absolute gamechanger. Let's say we are at the worst possible moment. You tried to go off two times already and your opponent had the counter everytime. Now you are at one, he has a Goyf and two cards, known as Stifle and Spell Snare. Due to the late gamestate you have a lot of lands in play. In your last possible turn, you draw PiF. Now two things happen.
1. You start grinning so hard that your opponent wants to punch you.
2. You win the game. (Not the game, hi btw ;))
I know that this is a pretty extreme example of a game, but it does happen. You go off the first time with half your hand, your opponent counters with his only counter, then topdecks the next one for your planned win next turn.
PiF from the top basicly reads like this: So, I invest four mana. You better have a Force. Even if you do, you better have another one. No? Ok, then I'll replay every spell in my graveyard. That includes Duress (you can ignore Stifle up to the point where PiF resolves, same with Spell Snare), several rituals and/or cantrips for even more goodies.
What I'm trying to say is: We get a card that ignores every counterspell except Force of Will (and Counterspell obv) and even our life total, with the greatest downside being that our opponents board graveyardhate. Which is, frankly said, just bad.
And in exchange? We don't lose anything except for four damage if we want to win via Ad Nauseam.
Almost forgot, discard? Yeah, that's effective now.

So, in conclusion, this deck now has three routes to victory, each having it's up- and downsides.

1. Via Tutorchain:
Up: Ignores life total, gets better if your opponents life is lower than 20, can calculate some counters for storm.
Down: Easily countered via Snare, most of the time you have to sacrifice your hand to get hellbent, requires at least five cards in your hand, the more life your opponent has, the worse it gets, can be difficult to set up.

2. Via Ad Nauseam:
Up: Instantspeed, one card combo, can only be countered by Force of Will (and Counterspell), ignores opponents life total almost every time, can remove Snare and Stifle after casting.
Down: May fizzle even with 20 life, so it's somewhat random, gets worse with every point of life you lose, cards like Lightning Bolt / Fire//Ice have to be calculated if your opponent is in red.

3. Via Past in Flames:
Up: Gets better the longer the game drags on, one card combo, can only be countered by Force of Will (and Counterspell), ignores opponents life total almost every time, needs to be countered two times, ignores your life total, can remove Snare and Stifle after casting, can be tutored via Burning Wish, immune to discard, may win games with a desastrous gamestate.
Down: Requires at least two rituals in your hand or graveyard (depending on the number of LEDs/lands maybe less), graveyardhate.

As you see, PiF provides the most upsides with the least downsides.

So, I hope I didn't forget anything. I strongly advice you to test this card, it is as good as it reads (maybe better).
If there are questions, please feel free to ask.

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I think Past in Flames fits perfectly in this deck, and I would pilot a deck similar to what you have proposed.

However, this deck is currently a consistent turn 3-4 combo deck, with the potential to play an attrition game against slower control decks if necessary. The problem is Reanimator seems to be very popular right now (especially in my local area), and Reanimator is very capable of a turn 2-3 Jin Gitaxias or Iona, which makes life very difficult for storm.

Although I prefer ANT to TES, I question whether playing TES (an inherently faster deck) isn't more justifiable as long as Reanimator remains popular.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mort-

Ok, where to start. I'll try to get the points as good as possible together. Everything is explained with the following list in mind:

Flaming ANT

4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Swamp
1x Island
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Badlands

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Brainstorm
1x Ad Nauseam

3x Preordain
4x Ponder
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Burning Wish
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
1x Past in Flames
1x Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard:
4x Dark Confidant

2x Krosan Grip
1x Rebuild
1x Chain of Vapor

1x Reverent Silence
1x Meltdown
1x Eye of Nowhere
1x Deathmark
1x Past in Flames
1x Grapeshot
1x Tendrils of Agony


First, Counterspell isn't played that much (well, in Landstill), which leaves a normal countersuite of Force of Will and Daze, most of the time accompanied by Spell Snare and Stifle.
The two greatest advantages of PiF are immunity to Spell Snare, (I'll leave out Daze because you should be able to get 6+ mana easily) and the possibility to be flashbacked. That leads to a pretty simple conclusion: If your opponent wants to counter PiF for good, he has to invest four cards and two life. For only one of your cards. That's pretty damn good.
Second, your Burning Wish become must counters. If your opponent doesn't counter BW, point one is in action. Pre PiF, letting a BW through was not that big of a problem. The possibilities to win were (in a non-combo turn) small, leaving you with a card that was even known by the opponent, so he could react accordingly (i.e. -> it's a Tendrils, I'll better not counter anything, he wants to storm me out with my help). With PiF.. yes, he knows what it is, but he can't do a thing against it, so he has to counter the Wish.
Third, it's an absolute gamechanger. Let's say we are at the worst possible moment. You tried to go off two times already and your opponent had the counter everytime. Now you are at one, he has a Goyf and two cards, known as Stifle and Spell Snare. Due to the late gamestate you have a lot of lands in play. In your last possible turn, you draw PiF. Now two things happen.
1. You start grinning so hard that your opponent wants to punch you.
2. You win the game. (Not the game, hi btw ;))
I know that this is a pretty extreme example of a game, but it does happen. You go off the first time with half your hand, your opponent counters with his only counter, then topdecks the next one for your planned win next turn.
PiF from the top basicly reads like this: So, I invest four mana. You better have a Force. Even if you do, you better have another one. No? Ok, then I'll replay every spell in my graveyard. That includes Duress (you can ignore Stifle up to the point where PiF resolves, same with Spell Snare), several rituals and/or cantrips for even more goodies.
What I'm trying to say is: We get a card that ignores every counterspell except Force of Will (and Counterspell obv) and even our life total, with the greatest downside being that our opponents board graveyardhate. Which is, frankly said, just bad.
And in exchange? We don't lose anything except for four damage if we want to win via Ad Nauseam.
Almost forgot, discard? Yeah, that's effective now.

So, in conclusion, this deck now has three routes to victory, each having it's up- and downsides.

1. Via Tutorchain:
Up: Ignores life total, gets better if your opponents life is lower than 20, can calculate some counters for storm.
Down: Easily countered via Snare, most of the time you have to sacrifice your hand to get hellbent, requires at least five cards in your hand, the more life your opponent has, the worse it gets, can be difficult to set up.

2. Via Ad Nauseam:
Up: Instantspeed, one card combo, can only be countered by Force of Will (and Counterspell), ignores opponents life total almost every time, can remove Snare and Stifle after casting.
Down: May fizzle even with 20 life, so it's somewhat random, gets worse with every point of life you lose, cards like Lightning Bolt / Fire//Ice have to be calculated if your opponent is in red.

3. Via Past in Flames:
Up: Gets better the longer the game drags on, one card combo, can only be countered by Force of Will (and Counterspell), ignores opponents life total almost every time, needs to be countered two times, ignores your life total, can remove Snare and Stifle after casting, can be tutored via Burning Wish, immune to discard, may win games with a desastrous gamestate.
Down: Requires at least two rituals in your hand or graveyard (depending on the number of LEDs/lands maybe less), graveyardhate.

As you see, PiF provides the most upsides with the least downsides.

So, I hope I didn't forget anything. I strongly advice you to test this card, it is as good as it reads (maybe better).
If there are questions, please feel free to ask.

---

I think Past in Flames fits perfectly in this deck, and I would pilot a deck similar to what you have proposed.

However, this deck is currently a consistent turn 3-4 combo deck, with the potential to play an attrition game against slower control decks if necessary. The problem is Reanimator seems to be very popular right now (especially in my local area), and Reanimator is very capable of a turn 2-3 Jin Gitaxias or Iona, which makes life very difficult for storm.

Although I prefer ANT to TES, I question whether playing TES (an inherently faster deck) isn't more justifiable as long as Reanimator remains popular.

Against Reanimator, you have to get your discard spells online. If you get 1 or 2 Duress / Thoughtseize in, they will be in a position where they have to find their own keyspells which usually gives you enough time to win.
It was pretty hard with Misstep, but it should work just fine now.

Reanimator is an unpredictable matchup and you need speed to beat them, at least that's how I won a game against it. In games where I was able to double Duress, opponent had 3 reanimation spells in hand, which isn't uncommon since they pack 11-12. They can Entomb in response to a Duress, cast a first turn Study or draw+discard fatty. All of which you have no way of interacting.

If you manage to nab 1-2 reanimation spells, they can find another copy via Brainstorm/Ponder/Study and proceed to win uninterrupted (Iona/JGCA/lifelink) because all they need is a single reanimation spell. Taking care of their FoWs+Thoughtseizes is an additional burden for us too. ANT needs a bunch of mana and business spells and having multiple discard spells in your hand already means you are playing slower.

EDIT - Past in Flames. Not necessary IMO. It feels to fancy, it compromises the manabase and doesn't really add speed or consistency because it drives the deck in a different direction, gets splash damage from graveyard hate. I already took out IGG and it seems to be working out.

Reanimator packs 10 spells most of the time.
4x Reanimate
4x Exhume
2x Animate Dead

At least in the lists I saw, so if he manages to get three spells in the first three turns - good for him, bad for you, but that's magic.
Also, I think you are underestimating this list and the power of red in general. First, it kills on turn two very often (even with protection). Second, it doesn't lose to Iona or Sphinx, due to Burning Wishes and Eye of Nowhere / Silent Departure. Jin is the hardest target, but killing through seven new cards isn't impossible.

With that being said, I want to compare my list and yours for the points you listed.
Speed: I guess this point goes to you, I don't know exactly how fast your list is, but it seems to be 0,5 turns faster.
Manabase: I don't see how you can say that playing red compromises the manabase, while playing only one basic, two lands that nuke themselves and no basic Swamp in a list that is very hungry for black.
Consistency: Your list has six business spells, with Pact of Negation (which are dead every time you draw an Infernal Tutor) only two and three of your cantrips don't filter. In comparsion, red adds five businessspells (virtual six because PiF needs to be countered twice) that may also be played proactively to draw a counter or to prepare for a comboturn.

So in the end, you have a butchered manabase (which may be ok in a field without Wastelands), only three protection spells (which may be ok if you pass priority, then they counter, then you counter and THEN you sac your LED) and literally no out against: Teeg, Solitary Confinement, Surgical Extraction, Earwig Squad, Chalice of the Void, Landstill in general, Canonist, losing too much life or discard effects. And the list goes on. And everything for that bit of speed?

Imho, playing straight UB might be possible, but only with Grim Tutor and at least one Chain of Vapor main, to not autolose against the random hate your opponent might tutor up G1.

With that being said, I think the direction PiF leads this deck is exactly the one where ANT was and your the one setting the wrong priorities. ANT was never the fastest deck in the format, this title belongs to Belcher or SI without a doubt. ANT was the deck that sculpted it's hand for two turns, then went off with protection. And that is imho the great thing about this deck. It's no onetrickpony that concedes if the opponent has a Force, it's a solid deck that can kill by turn two, but doesn't have to (also: the unstoppable killing machine of doom).

@mort: Agree and disagree. Grim Tutor is just bad. However, if you want to play UB, Lim Dul's Vault is pretty good. Now, I also ran Cunning Wish which was ... mediocre at best, but it gives a 12 cantrip list the proper threat density to thrive. I would 100% run Cunning Wish over Grims any day, it has nothing to do with price, I just think that card will always be terrible; Lax seems to like it but ... to each their own. Before I arrived at this current list I was playing around with CWish and it was decent, sometimes awkwardly slow and clunky, but I liked that if something happened to Tendrils, I don't need IGG 2 win. You can just combo off with AdN and Wish into Brainfreeze. AdN and Brainfreeze were my only dedicated wish targets but it was quite nice having access to all the bounce and creature kill in my deck g1.

PiF should never be anything more than a wish target as it is to situational to rely on (and I am sure someone will be dumb enough to build a deck based around it that folds to grave hate). IGG doesn't care about rituals or artifacts, it just wins if you have the mana. PiF is certainly good, there is no debate here, but it will never be consistently good in the main as IGG is.

Alright, I am not sure WTF this is ... at all. Some kind of TES/ANT Hybrid thingy, but for some reason this is one of the sickest combo lists I have played in a long while:

4x Lotus Petal
3x Brainstorm
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
4x LED
4x Dark Ritual
4x Burning Wish
1x Tendrils
1x Ad Nauseam
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Preordain
3x Chrome Mox
4x Ponder

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
1x Flooded Strand
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island

SB
Wish targets
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Past in Flames
1x Tendrils
1x Empty the Warrens
1x IGG

1x Deathmark
1x new blue bounce sorcery for U
1x Shattering Spree
1x Meltdown
2x Wipe Away
1x Slaughter pact
1x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor
1x open slot (probably Rebuild)

This list has been a complete animal in testing. Apparently running 10 cantrips + IT and BW is super solid :) The lifeloss from Thoughtseize + City is rarely ever relevant. It is a super consistent turn 1-3 list. The reason for 3 Brainstorm is the lack of fetchlands, I would rather have Ponder 100% of the time. Aside from that I don't think there is anything particularly strange about it, just the odd numbers of things. The manabase is a little strange, and it could easily be modded with a single Badlands 8-9 fetches and 2 basics. The reason I like the gold lands is that they don't punish low land hands. Playing 15x in a 3-color deck can be risky, and fetching a Sea turn 1 can backfire based on what you cantrip into. I just like the security of knowing I can cast a cantrip/protection spell/ritual off of a single land and then get there with a Petal or Mox.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mort-

Manabase: I don't see how you can say that playing red compromises the manabase, while playing only one basic, two lands that nuke themselves and no basic Swamp in a list that is very hungry for black.
Consistency: Your list has six business spells, with Pact of Negation (which are dead every time you draw an Infernal Tutor) only two and three of your cantrips don't filter. In comparsion, red adds five businessspells (virtual six because PiF needs to be countered twice) that may also be played proactively to draw a counter or to prepare for a comboturn.

So in the end, you have a butchered manabase (which may be ok in a field without Wastelands), only three protection spells (which may be ok if you pass priority, then they counter, then you counter and THEN you sac your LED) and literally no out against: Teeg, Solitary Confinement, Surgical Extraction, Earwig Squad, Chalice of the Void, Landstill in general, Canonist, losing too much life or discard effects. And the list goes on. And everything for that bit of speed?

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The City of Traitors nuke themselves true when played in decks like Stax or MUD. In my testing, everytime I drop a City it's always when I'm going to win. The City enables turn 1 kills. I have not found the need for a basic swamp because there's 3 Moxen on which I dump the 2nd Ad Nauseam/Tendrils, there's also the 4 Petals. Blue is the most important color when you spend your 1st-2nd turns sculpting a hand and an Island makes you sure to have that extra blue during the combo turn. I actually don't worry about Wastelands because if they destroy my nonbasics they're actually slowing themselves down. The deck has a lot of acceleration to win with just an Island +/- Sea (of course with the help of Rituals/C.Mox/Petals). Not having a basic Swamp as a black source isn't a major setback. In fact, this helps you not screw yourself down when you need blue mana for a cantrip.

Pacts are not ALWAYS dead with Infernal Tutors because you don't always have to go for LED>AdN. You can use Infernal Tutors for Rituals. I agree that Pacts are a double-edged sword here and they can be changed, although I am really liking them.

Red doesn't add consistency imo, it adds resiliency to things that you said. Red gives you more outs, but if you Duress then kill them outright there's nothing really to worry about. There are sacrifices to be made I know and I'm willing to take the risk because I think the benefits outweigh them.

City of Veins is better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Azdraël

City of Veins is better.

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Crystal Veins. If your 1st turn attempt gets aborted for whatever reason: Crystal Veins, sac. Chrome Mox, Ritual <countered>.. You are left with 0 lands for your 2nd attempt. Corner case scenario. Like when an opponent drops Arid Mesa and suddenly breaks it for a fucking Volc. Island and Dazes you.

On the brighter side, it helps you achieve Threshold faster, which has value when playing against soft counters because of the additional :b::b: from Cabal Ritual.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

@mort: Agree and disagree. Grim Tutor is just bad. However, if you want to play UB, Lim Dul's Vault is pretty good. Now, I also ran Cunning Wish which was ... mediocre at best, but it gives a 12 cantrip list the proper threat density to thrive. I would 100% run Cunning Wish over Grims any day, it has nothing to do with price, I just think that card will always be terrible; Lax seems to like it but ... to each their own. Before I arrived at this current list I was playing around with CWish and it was decent, sometimes awkwardly slow and clunky, but I liked that if something happened to Tendrils, I don't need IGG 2 win. You can just combo off with AdN and Wish into Brainfreeze. AdN and Brainfreeze were my only dedicated wish targets but it was quite nice having access to all the bounce and creature kill in my deck g1.

PiF should never be anything more than a wish target as it is to situational to rely on (and I am sure someone will be dumb enough to build a deck based around it that folds to grave hate). IGG doesn't care about rituals or artifacts, it just wins if you have the mana. PiF is certainly good, there is no debate here, but it will never be consistently good in the main as IGG is.

Alright, I am not sure WTF this is ... at all. Some kind of TES/ANT Hybrid thingy, but for some reason this is one of the sickest combo lists I have played in a long while:

4x Lotus Petal
3x Brainstorm
4x Rite of Flame
4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
4x LED
4x Dark Ritual
4x Burning Wish
1x Tendrils
1x Ad Nauseam
3x Infernal Tutor
3x Preordain
3x Chrome Mox
4x Ponder

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
1x Flooded Strand
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island

SB
Wish targets
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Past in Flames
1x Tendrils
1x Empty the Warrens
1x IGG

1x Deathmark
1x new blue bounce sorcery for U
1x Shattering Spree
1x Meltdown
2x Wipe Away
1x Slaughter pact
1x Echoing Truth
1x Chain of Vapor
1x open slot (probably Rebuild)

This list has been a complete animal in testing. Apparently running 10 cantrips + IT and BW is super solid :) The lifeloss from Thoughtseize + City is rarely ever relevant. It is a super consistent turn 1-3 list. The reason for 3 Brainstorm is the lack of fetchlands, I would rather have Ponder 100% of the time. Aside from that I don't think there is anything particularly strange about it, just the odd numbers of things. The manabase is a little strange, and it could easily be modded with a single Badlands 8-9 fetches and 2 basics. The reason I like the gold lands is that they don't punish low land hands. Playing 15x in a 3-color deck can be risky, and fetching a Sea turn 1 can backfire based on what you cantrip into. I just like the security of knowing I can cast a cantrip/protection spell/ritual off of a single land and then get there with a Petal or Mox.

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In all seriousness, how can I take you seriously when you're only running 3 Brainstorms?

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Originally Posted by honestabe

In all seriousness, how can I take you seriously when you're only running 3 Brainstorms?

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For what it's worth, aside from the miserable mana base instead of a fetch-basic one and the 3 Brainstorms, that style of list is really good.

Also, Wipe Away is unplayable bad.

I'm not even going to try and defend the 3x BS, but its working, especially with that manabase. I also went -1 Thoughtsieze +1 Chant and instead of the U sorcery bounce spell I can play Oust which is simply better. I just feel more comfortable with the gold lands, it can easily be modded for different playstyles. Point is with such a low landcount I don't want to have to mull hands because I have a basic swamp/island as my only source. Is this what makes more sense to people .. I can already see the unnecessary mulligans:

4x Delta
4x Tarn
2x Flooded Strand
2x Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Badlands
1x Island

Back to the BS thing, when playing 4 fetches ... not sure the exact odds, I would say ...1 out of 5-7 times stalls me. And I am stuck for 2 turns drawing blanks. Ponder and Preordain just keep digging. If you think this is a problem, then just -1 Preordain +1 BS. Really not hard, but the stalling thing really bugged me. Again, I can't defend not running 4x BS cause it clearly isn't wrong; this is my reasoning. With the manabase as it is, when I was playing TES a little while ago the same thing was happening. You brick on three cards ... then stall for 2 turns. And in a deck based around life totals my goal is to clear all the shit away and get going as fast as possible. When you brick on Preordain ... it doesn't matter, but randomly stalling out because of a bad BS was pissing me off.

Wipe Away is something I will always run for CB and Reanimator. Reanimator plagues my meta and I haven't played any combo SB without it in a good year or 2. They have to be there. I'm slowly starting to like it more than Krosan Grip since it gets a Teeg with MoR in play also. I personally am a big fan of it ... but u probably have a totally different meta than I do.

I could possibly see someone that can't use brainstorm to its full potential running less than 4, but in that case ide up the preordains to 4

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Originally Posted by metalhead

I could possibly see someone that can't use brainstorm to its full potential running less than 4, but in that case ide up the preordains to 4

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Why wouldn't one design a deck like this to take advantage of Brainstorm? practical joke and lorddotm have posted several TNT mana bases that would be able to support the red in your deck. Assuming your only fetches are Polluted Delta, Bloodstained Mire, and Scalding Tarn, fetching up Badlands or Volcanic Island shouldn't be an issue. Additionally, when you factor in Lotus Petal (and to a lesser extent Chrome Mox and Lion's Eye Diamond) I would venture to say that around 1/4 of your deck is capable of producing red mana.

While Brainstorm may produce situations when you have two cards that you have to dig past, Ponder presents the same problem since if you dig three and find one you like, you're stuck with the other two. The shuffle option is alright for solving this, however, odds are you find one card and usually want to shuffle away two worseless ones. One can almost look at the aforementioned situations as giving your opponent two free turns (which is terrible for a deck that doesn't like to interact). One of the reasons this archetype is so good is because we can maximize the value out of Brainstorm, Ponder, and Preordain. Playing cards that support the maximization of those cards and also contribute to a more stable and reliable mana seems like the way to design.

Fair enough, I wasn't suggesting everyone do it ... just posting a new list I am having a lot of success with online. I think at this point everyone hates ... almost every manabase I build for any storm deck. Fuck, I think I am the only person who still runs Emrakul main in DDFT, because it works in my meta and I love the miser City of Brass in there as well.

I just stalled out a few games and went -1 BS +1 Preordain. If u think thats awful, try the list with 4 BS, either way, it has been rock solid so far. While I am on the subject of bad perception, I started toying around with DReturns in the board as well. Playing 15x lands I thought would ruin that card ... I went 2/3 .... the only time it failed was when I cast it with R floating, every other time it got there. This could just be luck, further testing with 15 lands will tell. The more I play this the more I am starting to like the options available 2 it. I guess this is TNT? We should really have a thread for that cause I am sure no one playing ANT cares about BW targets.
EDIT: We don't need and more BS discussion ... I know. Just trying something newand seeing how it goes.

Top 16 of SCG open TN, only combo in the top 16 was aluren and belcher... Any idea how long we have to wait to see what was piloted? How many reanimators and AnT decks?

Do you think to many people were testing suboptimal Pif builds and so stumbled with the new playlines?

Ari I think did not play. Depends on where youre at I think. A lot of those Snapcasters, however. Caleb's list was just like some sort of Belcher in a sense that it has absolutely NO maindeck protection.